Anyone played through Horde of the Dragon Queen yet?

[MustacheFart]

I am curious if any one has played through this adventure book yet? From my research it looks like it's for characters level 1 thru 8.

I'll be playing in a campaign that will run entirely off the book very soon here. Obviously, I am not going to read the book and spoil anything for myself. However, if you have played through it how much fun was it? If you're playing through it now, how much fun has it been?

Also how much fun is it for melee based characters? I'll be playing a Barb 3/Monk in it and while I enjoy melee builds it is sometimes boring outside of an actual combat. With a caster you can always find something fun/cool to do. I wonder how much the book engages different types of characters.:smallsmile:

[Ramshack]

We'll be having our first session with it this weekend. I can report back afterwards :)

Our party is a Rogue, Barbarian, Paladin and Ranger so we'll see how that works out haha. We also have a few friends that may jump in and play once and awhile, a monk and a bard.

Will be interesting to play without the traditional magic/divine characters. However everybody agrees that magical users have far too few spells per day to start and no one has really enjoyed them up to level 4 thus far.

[Eliana Solange]

We've only been through one play session, and it seems pretty decent so far. Plenty of melee opportunities in the initial session at least. 5e seems to encourage (and spark) roleplaying more outside of combat, so I think even melee characters will have fun between combat (if you like to roleplay, at least)

[MustacheFart]

We've only been through one play session, and it seems pretty decent so far. Plenty of melee opportunities in the initial session at least. 5e seems to encourage (and spark) roleplaying more outside of combat, so I think even melee characters will have fun between combat (if you like to roleplay, at least)

Good to hear. I know it can be difficult to roleplay outside of combat with melee characters as they typically don't have much mechanic-wise to aid them in doing so compared to casters.

[Grynning]

Word of caution - the adventure is very difficult and potentially very lethal, right from the very first episode. I have nearly killed the party both times I've ran the first episode, and I had to use a heavy amount of DM shenanigans to keep the second group alive even after them leveling to 2nd early and me being generous and giving them full HP when they did.
The reason for this is that bounded accuracy is just as good for the monsters as it is for you, and there are a lot of "hordes of mooks" fights. Don't let yourself get surrounded. Have an AOE blaster, and have a healer.

[Falka]

We've played 4 sessions already and the party has just reached level 3.

Word of advice: don't just try to heatbutt into everything.

The adventure is pretty cool.

[Arbane]

Our party is a Rogue, Barbarian, Paladin and Ranger so we'll see how that works out haha. We also have a few friends that may jump in and play once and awhile, a monk and a bard.


GET SOME RANGED ATTACKS. I cannot overemphasize this. If you do not have decent ranged attack capability at level 1, you will probably all die. If just some members have ranged ability, they will get to roll to see whether their corpses are merely charred to unrecognizability, or actually reduced to a cloud of charged particles. :smallmad:

My group just played up to the first big battle. As you might guess from the above tirade, it didn't go too well for us.

My immediate reaction when the dragon attacked was "I get it. We all die now, then roll up the REAL heroes who will vow vengeance in our names, right?"

This stupid module apparently had 20 playtesters. Not ONE of whom apparently noticed that if your party can't hit the dragon at least once a round (Which we ceased be able to do when it vaporized our sorcerer), the fight either turns into a TPK if the dragon isn't played like a moron - or a slog if the GM (like mine) seems reluctant to have the dragon slaughter the mewling commoners who've mildly annoyed it.

Seriously, King Ghidorah Junior there can one-shot any level 1 PC it actually notices, and with the archer unconscious due to kobolds (Do NOT let these little bastards run up to anyone not wearing heavy armor - their allies will gank them mercilessly), our Wizard buried under fallen masonry (could've been worse, they could have ended up like the Sorcerer), and the Sorcerer with decent spell-range reduced to a blast-shadow on the wall by 10d12 lightning-breath for actually managing to do damage to the dragon, leaving the STR-based Paladin and the healer Cleric trying desperately to do any damage to it whatsoever. And thanks to disadvantage (from range and its Fear Aura), they had at most a one in a hundred chance to hit this abomination against the CR system. The fact that it has literal Plot Armor giving it Immunity to NPCs didn't help.

And the final fecal cherry on the BS sundae? We got a whopping 50 whole XP for surviving this kaiju attack. We got more from the kobolds and the cultists!

:smallfurious:



So, if you're going to play this from first level on, DON'T bother writing any backstory to your characters until they've survived a few sessions.

[Falka]

Your DM kinda screwed you over. The dragon isn't supposed to target the PCs at first, unless they do something really reckless and stupid. There are 20 NPC defenders attacking the dragon at the same time and he's supposed to direct his breath weapon at them first, fly in circles to let his Fearsome Presence kick in, etc. The dragon isn't really interested in slaughtering everyone (even lore-wise), he's just there to weaken enemy forces).

[Arbane]

Your DM kinda screwed you over. The dragon isn't supposed to target the PCs at first, unless they do something really reckless and stupid. There are 20 NPC defenders attacking the dragon at the same time and he's supposed to direct his breath weapon at them first, fly in circles to let his Fearsome Presence kick in, etc. The dragon isn't really interested in slaughtering everyone (even lore-wise), he's just there to weaken enemy forces).

Oh, yeah, it

vaporized plenty of the NPCs - but after we actually managed to damage it a few times (our Wizard hit it, but couldn't roll above a two on a d8), and the Sorcerer taunted it by yelling about Bahamut, it blasted him to ions. I suppose that qualified as pretty reckless.

Dragons are still supposed to be smart, right? NOT targeting the only thing in the keep that's actually hurting it would be petty idiotic.

And it's wonderful the way pure-melee types are completely useless in that fight, since they can't even hit the damn thing.

[Grynning]

Falka is correct. If run correctly no PC's should die in that encounter, it's just supposed to be a cool plot moment. The DM didn't read that correctly at all.

Also there are plenty of shortbows available at the keep, and melee characters generally all start with Javelins or throwing axes or something.

My problem with PC's dying was just in the regular fights with the random dudes running about in the first episode. Not to give too much away but they can end up facing groups as large as 10 enemies just off the random encounters, and there is one group of 15 that can be encountered if the PC's don't do a certain mission exactly right. The adventure does not seem well-playtested to me, unless they were playtesting with a party of 6 or something.

[Arbane]

Above poster is correct. If run correctly no PC's should die in that encounter, it's just supposed to be a cool plot moment. The DM didn't read that correctly at all.

I blame the designers anyway. Why give that thing stats, if they don't expect more-heroic-than-sane characters to TRY to fight it?

Have it show up, slaughter a few dozen innocent people, and fly away the next round.
PROBLEM SOLVED.

And that way, you don't leave us with the annoying knowledge that pure DM Fiat is the only reason our snivelling peasants are still sucking oxygen. :smallfrown:

If the dragon had deigned to land, it's not like there's anything we could've done to stop it from shredding every person there in alphabetical order.


Also there are plenty of shortbows available at the keep, and melee characters generally all start with Javelins or throwing axes or something.

Like I said, our only archer (my Rogue) was in a coma from those kobolds, and the Paladin had no Dex to speak of, and it was invariably out of javelin range (or he had Disadvantage for the aforementioned reason). That left three or two casters, running on fumes and cantrips.

The Sorcerer had a spell that does electrical damage to an enemy if it stayed within 60' of him - so it was doubly useless against the dragon. The Wizard had already blown his Magic Missiles to avoid one of this sadistic module's previous tries at a TPK-by-scaly-things.


My problem with PC's dying was just in the regular fights with the random dudes running about in the first episode. Not to give too much away but they can end up facing groups as large as 10 enemies just off the random encounters, and there is one group of 15 that can be encountered if the PC's don't do a certain mission exactly right. The adventure does not seem well-playtested to me, unless they were playtesting with a party of 6 or something.

6? I was thinking 8-10 PCs, possibly with hirelings. You know, for the old school feel. (And to provide replacements for the inevitable gankings.) :smallmad: Either that, or ALL their casters' 1st-level spells were AoE attacks.

A group with no healers is going to be SCREWED in this one. Not that it'll matter in the fight

at the keep, since the dragon will insta-kill any PC it breathes at.

Not that they're likely to get that far. In retrospect, the guy who invited me to the game suggested I play a second cleric, and that might've helped. We might still have had a cure spell or two left by the time we got to the keep...

[Grynning]

Sigh...
Ok, so that encounter is written in a very specific way. I've run it twice now, as I said, and other DM's in my town have run it as well, and we've discussed it. You only have to do 24 pts of damage to the dragon or a single crit to get it to fly away, and the adventure states multiple times that the dragon is not interested in fighting. It is only there because the cult bribed him and he thinks the whole thing is beneath him. He flies around using his breath weapon on NPC's (which on average dice will take about 3 rounds to recharge) and using Frightful Presence. The idea is that in the rounds that he closes to fry the townies on the battlements, he's in easier attack range for the PC's. It very much calls out in the book that the breath weapon will kill the 1st level characters outright and while it doesn't precisely spell out "hey don't wipe the party right here halfway through episode 1," it shouldn't really have to.

He shouldn't have even given a crap about your sorcerer calling him out; hell he shouldn't have even heard him above the battle noises, being that he's flying 120 ft away. Your DM just did it wrong.

If you want to talk about this any further we should probably move it to another thread.

[Arbane]

Sigh...
Ok, so that encounter is written in a very specific way. I've run it twice now, as I said, and other DM's in my town have run it as well, and we've discussed it. You only have to do 24 pts of damage to the dragon or a single crit to get it to fly away, and the adventure states multiple times that the dragon is not interested in fighting. It is only there because the cult bribed him and he thinks the whole thing is beneath him. He flies around using his breath weapon on NPC's (which on average dice will take about 3 rounds to recharge) and using Frightful Presence. The idea is that in the rounds that he closes to fry the townies on the battlements, he's in easier attack range for the PC's. It very much calls out in the book that the breath weapon will kill the 1st level characters outright and while it doesn't precisely spell out "hey don't wipe the party right here halfway through episode 1," it shouldn't really have to.

He shouldn't have even given a crap about your sorcerer calling him out; hell he shouldn't have even heard him above the battle noises, being that he's flying 120 ft away. Your DM just did it wrong.

What is the POINT???? Let the NPCs drive it off after a few rounds of helpless flailing by our level 1 scrubs. They were shooting at it too, and if not for its Protection from Minor Characters, they could've done some damage, just by sheer chance.

As for hearing the Sorc's taunts? "+10 perception" saith the DM.


So our GM is a chimp. Good to know. I still don't think it was a good idea - I dislike bring kept alive by the Power of Cutscenes.

And if THAT fight doesn't TPK, some of the random encounters could.

[Grynning]

I wasn't insulting your GM as a person. I'm saying he mis-read an encounter, which is a mistake all of us have made at some point. Also, D&D has always had cutscene-like encounters. We played through a 2nd edition adventure converted to 5e during the playtest (Sword of the Dales) that has tons of narration and one of the recurring villains dies without any intervention from the PC's at all. The whole party gets paralyzed in another one. It's just something that has to happen occasionally in a narrative game, where you have some players that try to kill everything that moves and steal anything not nailed down regardless of how sensible it might be.

[Falka]

The module, if played right, gives PC plenty of tools and freedom to beat all encounters. I only had problems at the Mill because my party entered murder-hobo mode and didn't take any precautions. They played Episode 2 way better and hardly bumped into any needless fight.

[Grynning]

Well, it's low level D&D, so the dice really dictate how well it goes for PC's. I still think there are too many enemies.

The very first encounter from the random encounter table dropped our paladin to 0. I was following it as written and since two party members failed stealth and I rolled that they got an encounter entering the town, they ended up fighting guards and an acolyte. I fiat'ed a healing potion for him, but then they immediately ran into the first fight with the 8 kobolds. Most PC's can only take 3 hits from the bog standard creatures in the module, since they average 4 damage a hit and the PC's will have around 10 HP on average. The kobolds all have pack tactics, so if they melee, they pretty much always have advantage. that messed the party up more. Now, counting that fight, there are minimum 4 combat encounters in that first mission, and probably more like 5-6 (since if you avoid one of the initial 3, the module states they pick up more villagers, and for every 4 villagers, it takes another encounter to get to the keep). I had to choose to skip the extra encounters since the 2nd encounter my party ran into rolled the max possible number of enemies (10), which again drained a lot of their resources. It's a very, very hard module. unless your monsters miss a lot, or for some reason choose not to attack every turn (why?), you will probably have one or two players go down during episode 1. This is not counting the dragon encounter, which as discussed above should not actually kill or damage any PC's.

[MustacheFart]

Wow, this is great information that doesn't really spoil anything for me.

Well, we're playing this Saturday and we should have 7 - 8 players. I would think that would give us an advantage however the past weekend some of us were rolling up characters (so we could start sooner this saturday) and the DM was beefy up the first part of the module to account for our larger party size. I'm concerned that beefing up isn't needed.

One question: what was the damage type of most of the mooks? I'm playing a Barb so I'll have resistance to bludg/pierce/slash. Also I have a 17 in str, dex, con so hopefully I won't be fodder.

[Falka]

Cultists deal mostly slashing damage with scimitars. Kobolds have sharpy toothnails (daggers) that deal piercing damage.

[MustacheFart]

Cultists deal mostly slashing damage with scimitars. Kobolds have sharpy toothnails (daggers) that deal piercing damage.

Yeah, what sucks though is that's only when I rage which at level 1 I think I get 2 uses. Unless we pull the old run from encounter to encounter (which obviously would be suicide) it's not going to help a whole lot.

EDIT: Is there also room for thinking outside of the box? The group I am playing with is not a typical hack n' slash group. Often we find other ways around encounters. I don't know is it possible to lure the encounters in a hut/house, lock them in, and burn it down? Stuff like that. Can skills beyond stealth be utilized much?

[Ramshack]

All I can say is I hope my DM plays the Dragon Encounter correctly this weekend lol.

[JungleChicken]

I must have a DM that read the encounter correctly. We just finished the dragon scenario a few days ago on Sunday. We had a fight near the town square and saved a family the odds were 5 against 5 then we failed a stealth roll trudging through the town and had a 5 versus 8 fight that did leave our Paladin at 1 HP and our Barbarian at half HP, myself (the warlock) the wizard and the rogue all came through unscathed.

During the dragon encounter I used Thaumaturgy at the request of the Paladin to increase his volume (he was dragonborn so spoke draconic). He got it's attention by questioning his pride since this was beneath him which got into a heated conversation and the feeling that the dragon just didn't really care to be at the town was apparent...then the barbarian tried to ride the dragon. The rogue and myself, being prudent, had walked far away once the dragon landed and were spared from the falling rocks as the dragon easily bucked the barbarian off and thrashed once and flew off in contempt.

Barbarian was now at 1 or 2, the Paladin would have been very dead but he had used his lay on hands for himself just before and made his death saving throws.

All in all the GM could have laid waste to us but the dragon just was more tired of being there than he was threatened by us.

[Grynning]

EDIT: Is there also room for thinking outside of the box? The group I am playing with is not a typical hack n' slash group. Often we find other ways around encounters. I don't know is it possible to lure the encounters in a hut/house, lock them in, and burn it down? Stuff like that. Can skills beyond stealth be utilized much?

There are several options besides straight up fighting for many of the encounters, and avoiding some of them is in fact encouraged. However, some of the fights are mandatory and sometimes things just don't go your way (my group tried to RP around one fight but didn't think their cover story through very well, and ended up having to fight anyways).

@JungleChicken - Please put spoilers on your post so people who haven't played it yet can avoid them.

[MustacheFart]

...then the barbarian tried to ride the dragon.

Yeeeaaahh...that's my kind of barbarian :smallsmile: Exactly what I was thinking of doing.

My character actually speaks Draconic and is Lawful Neutral--entirely backed by his faith's system of honor--so after hearing this I should have zero issue just convincing the Dragon to leave. The issue will be getting to the dragon, hah.

[MustacheFart]

Here's a question that came to mind. Is it even possible to kill this dragon that should fly off? Could you perhaps get it to kill itself, maybe? For example, jump on top of it to mount it, hang on for dear life, get it to turn its head around and use its breath weapon. Would it not hit itself as well? Trying to think outside the box to do the unthinkable.

[Grynning]

It is really not possible to kill the dragon in the module, and a first level character who actually tries to kill an adult dragon will die. Assuming you could get into melee with it (which again, it's never supposed to get closer than 90 ft from you in the segment in question), there is no way it would hurt itself trying to attack you (It could easily use its tail or breath weapon to hit you regardless of where you were on its body, both in common sense and game mechanics, and dragons are immune to the damage type of their own breath weapons) and it has gallons of hit points.

It is also not "immune to the NPC attacks" as the other poster implied - it is getting peppered with arrows, it's just you only track the PC's damage for determining when it leaves. Again, it's a narrative encounter, it's not supposed to be a straight up fight.
The dragon also shows up later in the adventure - this is just a cameo for foreshadowing.

[Arbane]

The dragon also shows up later in the adventure - this is just a cameo for foreshadowing.

Oh, goodie. Now it'll be level SIX characters getting TPKed. Or do we not really fight it again?

[MustacheFart]

It is really not possible to kill the dragon in the module, and a first level character who actually tries to kill an adult dragon will die. Assuming you could get into melee with it (which again, it's never supposed to get closer than 90 ft from you in the segment in question), there is no way it would hurt itself trying to attack you (It could easily use its tail or breath weapon to hit you regardless of where you were on its body, both in common sense and game mechanics, and dragons are immune to the damage type of their own breath weapons) and it has gallons of hit points.

It is also not "immune to the NPC attacks" as the other poster implied - it is getting peppered with arrows, it's just you only track the PC's damage for determining when it leaves. Again, it's a narrative encounter, it's not supposed to be a straight up fight.
The dragon also shows up later in the adventure - this is just a cameo for foreshadowing.

Regarding the two parts I made bold, I wouldn't say regardless of where you were on its body. Is a breath weapon not a cone or line? They hit multiple targets and if you can put it's body in the path then it would hit itself. That said, I wasn't aware they were immune to their own damage this time around. That makes sense.

I played in a game once where a black dragon (they're the ones that shoot acid in 3.5 right?) strafed a town we were in and then left. It was primarily foreshadowing and just to incite some motivation/hate in the players.

I suppose there is no way to pull out something similar to the old solid fog on his wings maneuver to make him come crashing down.

[Zweisteine]

Wow. You guys have it tough.

Unless my DM was heavily modifying things, my party hasn't had any trouble at all.

We've got a bard, a wizard, a rogue, a warlock (me), and an incompetent fighter (9 hp, 9 AC, no ranged ability).
We got to town, and slaughtered some cultists (I took out the leader/caster with a lucky crit round 1, but even without, he'd have died next time any of us hit him). We then saw a woman being attacked in the street, and 3 of us (not the warlock or rogue, for RP reasons [we got inspiration for that]) attacked and dispatched the cultists and kobolds with little trouble. The fighter was near dead, but he doesn't count. Said fighter than ran ahead as we headed to the keep, and nearly died again, and didn't participate much in the next fight. We killed more occultists and kobolds with no losses, then ran to the keep before the dragon got close. On top of the keep, we saw the dragon in the distance, and went inside before it came back.

Unless it hasn't happened yet, I'm not sure what's so tough in this adventure.

[Grynning]

Yeah, it was modified. That's ok though, I think most sensible DM's will be easing up on the encounters in the module, because they are insane.

Unless you successfully sneak into the town, you have a chance for a random encounter every 100 feet until the DM starts the mission where you rescue the townsfolk. You are actually supposed to fight 8 kobolds when you rescue the human family, and then encounter (not necessarily fight) 3 more randomly generated packs of kobolds and cultists on the way to the keep, which is d4 cultists and d6 kobolds each, and if you roll a 6 on the kobolds they get a winged variant (as I said, I rolled max on the 2nd pack my group fought, so I skipped the 3rd pack). If you avoid any of those encounters though, you pick up more townspeople, and every 4 townspeople you get adds another encounter. If you only fought 1 group after the initial rescue, the DM was being easy on you. Also, 3 characters should not be able to easily dispatch the groups in that adventure. They have decent to-hit rolls, the pack tactics thing I mentioned earlier, which they are supposed to use, and they do an average of 4 damage per hit.
Also, you guys are literally only 2 pages into the first episode. There's a lot more to do after that, and you don't get more than a short rest the whole time.

[MustacheFart]

Wow. You guys have it tough.

Unless my DM was heavily modifying things, my party hasn't had any trouble at all.

We've got a bard, a wizard, a rogue, a warlock (me), and an incompetent fighter (9 hp, 9 AC, no ranged ability).
We got to town, and slaughtered some cultists (I took out the leader/caster with a lucky crit round 1, but even without, he'd have died next time any of us hit him). We then saw a woman being attacked in the street, and 3 of us (not the warlock or rogue, for RP reasons [we got inspiration for that]) attacked and dispatched the cultists and kobolds with little trouble. The fighter was near dead, but he doesn't count. Said fighter than ran ahead as we headed to the keep, and nearly died again, and didn't participate much in the next fight. We killed more occultists and kobolds with no losses, then ran to the keep before the dragon got close. On top of the keep, we saw the dragon in the distance, and went inside before it came back.

Unless it hasn't happened yet, I'm not sure what's so tough in this adventure.

Wait a minute, your fighter has 9 hp? He actually built a fighter with a negative con? Also 9 AC? So he's wearing no armor and is rocking an 8-9 dex too?

Okay is he playing an idiot fighter on purpose or did he roll his stats and have to put them in that order?

[UHF]

Wait a minute, your fighter has 9 hp? He actually built a fighter with a negative con? Also 9 AC? So he's wearing no armor and is rocking an 8-9 dex too?

Okay is he playing an idiot fighter on purpose or did he roll his stats and have to put them in that order?
And he's not dead yet? Perhaps he took a "Cursed Shield of Arrow Attraction" as inspiration?

[Arbane]

If occurs to me another reason that fight is Bad Design

Everywhere else in the module, we're getting it dinned into us to AVOID tough fights, to sneak or con our way past difficult-looking encounters with freakin' kobolds. Then here we get to a DRAGON that is quite obviously capable of annihilating anyone it looks at, and the designers expect our reaction to be 'Oh! Let's POKE IT WITH STICKS!"

What exactly does it do it the PCs all go and hide?


Which just goes to show how predictably stupid player-characters are, but still.

[hawklost]

If occurs to me another reason that fight is Bad Design

Everywhere else in the module, we're getting it dinned into us to AVOID tough fights, to sneak or con our way past difficult-looking encounters with freakin' kobolds. Then here we get to a DRAGON that is quite obviously capable of annihilating anyone it looks at, and the designers expect our reaction to be 'Oh! Let's POKE IT WITH STICKS!"

What exactly does it do it the PCs all go and hide?


Which just goes to show how predictably stupid player-characters are, but still.

At which point, the dragon could destroy all the towns defenders on the walls and then leave. Remember, he really isn't there other than because he is getting some gold to attack the town. So if the PCs decide to hide from him, they get the sense of something more powerful around, the town is not happy for them hiding and they don't get the experience for beating the encounter. Now move on to the next one and continue your fighting.

[MustacheFart]

and they don't get the experience for beating the encounter.

I don't agree at all with that assessment. So, stay out in the open, do practically nothing to the dragon, possibly lose some party members, and get xp. Or, hide and get nothing. Hmm...in this case it is exactly the same thing. Both are the "defeating the encounter" in non-traditional ways. The only difference is the hiding route requires intelligence.

[hawklost]

I don't agree at all with that assessment. So, stay out in the open, do practically nothing to the dragon, possibly lose some party members, and get xp. Or, hide and get nothing. Hmm...in this case it is exactly the same thing. Both are the "defeating the encounter" in non-traditional ways. The only difference is the hiding route requires intelligence.

Sorry, but by your logic you 'beat' the encounters that are part of the first section by staying in the keep the entire time. That is just not logical, you must at least Do something in the encounter. Even the Encounter rewards specify "Characters earn 50 XP each for driving away Lennithon, but reduce that award to 25 XP if 10 or more defenders were killed during the attack." Hiding from the attack means you don't get anything since you did not drive away the dragon.

[MustacheFart]

Sorry, but by your logic you 'beat' the encounters that are part of the first section by staying in the keep the entire time. That is just not logical, you must at least Do something in the encounter. Even the Encounter rewards specify "Characters earn 50 XP each for driving away Lennithon, but reduce that award to 25 XP if 10 or more defenders were killed during the attack." Hiding from the attack means you don't get anything since you did not drive away the dragon.

You did do something though. You saw the dragon and went for cover. That's different than completely ducking an encounter to the point your character wasn't even aware of it because they were inside the keep.

Now knowing that the actual adventure makes such stipulations, I question the logic of that part of the adventure. I understand foreshadowing perfectly well. However, it's basically rewarding stupidity. It's saying, "Go outside, give the dragon a papercut, watch it run away, and do the XP dance." That's poorly written and just sounds stupid when you think about it.

[Durazno]

Well, because the bit of damage or a critical hit is enough to make him leave, I always assumed that the other defenders were doing something to him in the story sense, but it just wasn't reflected mechanically. It has to be enough to make him decide "ugh, I'm not getting paid enough for this." If you take to the walls with everyone else and join them in sending up a great cloud of arrows against the dragon, you will have helped drive him away. If you cower underground while all the redshirts are up there shooting, he still gets driven away but of course you don't get any experience for it.

[Rack]

I've played the start of it and it's just a really crappy module. Your characters have every reason to avoid the adventure and outside of being suicidally quixotic none whatsoever to participate in it. But that's where the railroad goes so choo choo!

Then you have a massive string of combat encounters, showcasing how dreadful 5e combat is.

Then the encounter with the dragon which is a plot armour or die encounter no matter how you slice it.

The whole thing is a logic black hole, where no rational action is allowed to take part. Roleplaying "Well, this is obviously incredibly dumb but but for unspecified reasons it's somehow the only action I can take" over and over really doesn't work.

[Grynning]

I wouldn't say the combat is "dreadful" - it's less fiddly than 4th ed and more intuitive than 3rd ed. combat. The problem is that HotDQ just throws way too many enemies at you at a time in that first episode. It's just really rough on 1st level characters.
Having played Lost Mines of Phandelver and also having run the later episodes of Horde, I can say the combat is pretty good when you're fighting balanced groups of enemies or "boss" encounters where the whole party gets to participate.

[Vhaluus]

I wouldn't say the combat is "dreadful" - it's less fiddly than 4th ed and more intuitive than 3rd ed. combat. The problem is that HotDQ just throws way too many enemies at you at a time in that first episode. It's just really rough on 1st level characters.
Having played Lost Mines of Phandelver and also having run the later episodes of Horde, I can say the combat is pretty good when you're fighting balanced groups of enemies or "boss" encounters where the whole party gets to participate.

Perhaps HotDQ was actually designed more to be played AFTER lost mines of Phandelver and that is why it is badly balanced at level 1?

[MustacheFart]

Perhaps HotDQ was actually designed more to be played AFTER lost mines of Phandelver and that is why it is badly balanced at level 1?


That can't be right. HotDQ is rated for characters level 1 through 8 I do believe.

[Rack]

I wouldn't say the combat is "dreadful" - it's less fiddly than 4th ed and more intuitive than 3rd ed. combat. The problem is that HotDQ just throws way too many enemies at you at a time in that first episode. It's just really rough on 1st level characters.
Having played Lost Mines of Phandelver and also having run the later episodes of Horde, I can say the combat is pretty good when you're fighting balanced groups of enemies or "boss" encounters where the whole party gets to participate.


Less fiddly than 4th and more intuitive than 3rd is not an especially high bar though, it might not have the worst combat system for a D&D system but it isn't good enough to support combat encounter after combat encounter, regardless of how readily the party survives it. Sooner or later it devolves into "I hit it with my sword, I hit it with my axe, I shoot it with my bow, I cast my cantrip at it" for hours at a time.

[UHF]

I think the purpose of the Dragon Encounter is to show the players that if they think, they can do something useful. There are many many many adventures where the players are pitted against something too big and too intractable for them to solve directly. If they try. They die. Period.

Ideally they realize this is Dungeons and Dragons, and not kittens and cuddles, so they find a useful way to participate. As much as anything else, its a test of character.

Adventure examples...
Dead by Dawn - D&D 4e (infinite undead outside),
Old Margreve - Pathfinder (Hollow Man, an intractable foe who will chop you up),
Red Hand Of Doom - D&D 3.5 (players can't kill an army, but they can try to slow it up).

[MustacheFart]

I think the purpose of the Dragon Encounter is to show the players that if they think, they can do something useful.

As in, plink away at it until they scratch it enough for it to lose interest and fly away?

I would agree with you if it wasn't written in a manner that railroads the players so much into simply attack insurmountable foe. Had they simply stated that the dragon really doesn't want to be there and the players can motivate it to leave either via combat or other means such as skills that would be different. I don't believe it says that.

I mean why should the affect be any different if my character simply does the following:

(In draconic): "Hey dragon! Listen, I know you're strong enough to wipe us all out. However, it will take even you a bit of time to do that. In the mean time we will scratch away are you. Yes, we probably won't do much more than scratch you but is all of this worth a scratch to your illustrious hide?"

OR since the dragon is motivated by money (not a real surprise since it IS a dragon), how about this:

"Hey dragon! Since you're only doing this for money and it's the XXXX that's paying you, how about a better deal? We're going to wipe them out regardless. If you aid us, we'll let you have what they paid you plus a lot more. After all, they've surely not paid you ALL of their money. Let's go take the rest for you!"

Then steamroll the joint with the help of a dragon.

(Btw both options are assuming you have a dm that will allow you to speak to the dragon enough to find out some info. If the dragon won't converse and simply leaves when you do a little bit of damage then that's about as deep as Honey Boo Boo's intellect.)

[Shining Wrath]

I blame the designers anyway. Why give that thing stats, if they don't expect more-heroic-than-sane characters to TRY to fight it?

Have it show up, slaughter a few dozen innocent people, and fly away the next round.
PROBLEM SOLVED.

And that way, you don't leave us with the annoying knowledge that pure DM Fiat is the only reason our snivelling peasants are still sucking oxygen. :smallfrown:

If the dragon had deigned to land, it's not like there's anything we could've done to stop it from shredding every person there in alphabetical order.



Like I said, our only archer (my Rogue) was in a coma from those kobolds, and the Paladin had no Dex to speak of, and it was invariably out of javelin range (or he had Disadvantage for the aforementioned reason). That left three or two casters, running on fumes and cantrips.

The Sorcerer had a spell that does electrical damage to an enemy if it stayed within 60' of him - so it was doubly useless against the dragon. The Wizard had already blown his Magic Missiles to avoid one of this sadistic module's previous tries at a TPK-by-scaly-things.



6? I was thinking 8-10 PCs, possibly with hirelings. You know, for the old school feel. (And to provide replacements for the inevitable gankings.) :smallmad: Either that, or ALL their casters' 1st-level spells were AoE attacks.

A group with no healers is going to be SCREWED in this one. Not that it'll matter in the fight

at the keep, since the dragon will insta-kill any PC it breathes at.

Not that they're likely to get that far. In retrospect, the guy who invited me to the game suggested I play a second cleric, and that might've helped. We might still have had a cure spell or two left by the time we got to the keep...

Every DM at least once in a while throws in a foe you aren't supposed to fight. If you insist on fighting it, you get to roll new characters or suffer humiliation. It's a learning experience, and it can happen in every version of every FRP game ever.

[Rack]

Every DM at least once in a while throws in a foe you aren't supposed to fight. If you insist on fighting it, you get to roll new characters or suffer humiliation. It's a learning experience, and it can happen in every version of every FRP game ever.

Which is why an encounter which gives you +40 Adamantine plot armor and pushes you into a combat encounter you would be otherwise certain to lose is such bad design. The message is wildly inconsistent.

[Thrudd]

Which is why an encounter which gives you +40 Adamantine plot armor and pushes you into a combat encounter you would be otherwise certain to lose is such bad design. The message is wildly inconsistent.

I agree. I think the module should have left out the dragon altogether. Why in the world would a group of first level characters knowingly go to a town that is being attacked by an adult dragon, while it is still under attack? They have no way to know that the dragon isn't really motivated to do much, and is just going to keep flying around. Even the bravest of them should know that they won't be any help against a dragon until they become more powerful, and will likely die quickly. Or if they don't, the whole point of the scene would be to demonstrate how powerful and dangerous dragons are, and then have everyone roll up new characters who witnessed what happened to the first characters.

Yes, sometimes creatures too powerful for the PC's appear in a game, but when they do it is expected that the PC's run away or try to negotiate if they can't get away. Not get XP for plinking them with some arrows and hope that plot armor will save them from retribution.

This may be an ok adventure for a convention, with pre-gen characters that have motivations connected to the dragon cult or the town. It is not a good module for new DM's and players to learn how to play the game or to start their own campaigns.

[Durazno]

I think that the party joining an army that's opposing a dragon is a different proposition from the party confronting one on their own, especially since this is the edition where a hundred peasants with longbows can kill a dragon. The encounter can even serve to show off the dragon's power because you'd see other parts of the bow line getting blasted to glowing cinders - and there are ways to work around the plot armor problem. The notion I'll be testing out soon enough is to have the defenders clustering in different places on the wall because there isn't room up there for all the bows they need (we're playing with a grid.) Big Blue will be aiming to get as many defenders as he can with each shot, and the PCs won't stand out in his eyes. I'm... pretty sure my players will know where to go to avoid him, but I suppose we'll see.

Also, the adventure does describe what the characters see if they decide to wait the attack out instead of diving in.

[Callin]

How useful will Poisons be in this Module. How many immune to poison creatures/Dragons are in it. And do you think it would be worth wile to keep thinking about this character type I got in my head.

[Thrudd]

I think that the party joining an army that's opposing a dragon is a different proposition from the party confronting one on their own, especially since this is the edition where a hundred peasants with longbows can kill a dragon. The encounter can even serve to show off the dragon's power because you'd see other parts of the bow line getting blasted to glowing cinders - and there are ways to work around the plot armor problem. The notion I'll be testing out soon enough is to have the defenders clustering in different places on the wall because there isn't room up there for all the bows they need (we're playing with a grid.) Big Blue will be aiming to get as many defenders as he can with each shot, and the PCs won't stand out in his eyes. I'm... pretty sure my players will know where to go to avoid him, but I suppose we'll see.

Also, the adventure does describe what the characters see if they decide to wait the attack out instead of diving in.

That's true, it does describe what they see if they wait out the attack. But that also means they have missed the entire adventure, and probably have no reason to engage in the rest of the subsequent episodes either. The adventure assumes they will rush to its defense as soon as they see it under attack, and even has an NPC suggest that this small party of 1st level characters might make a difference in the battle, if they are hesitant.

The adventure requires players create characters with specific backgrounds that connect them to this specific town, certain NPCs and/or the dragon cult, to motivate them to participate. Otherwise, it is a railroad to get them involved and keep them involved.

[DDogwood]

The adventure requires players create characters with specific backgrounds that connect them to this specific town, certain NPCs and/or the dragon cult, to motivate them to participate. Otherwise, it is a railroad to get them involved and keep them involved.

To be fair, the adventure DOES strongly suggest that characters should have some connection to the story, and provides a whole bunch of bonds designed to do exactly that.

That said, this adventure seems to be merely ok instead of great. Better than Keep on the Shadowfell, but it has a railroady Paizo Adventure Path or old Dragonlance module feel to me. It's not as bad as some people suggest - a reasonable DM and a cooperative group could have a lot of fun with it - but it doesn't have the open-ended feel of Lost Mine of Phandelver, which is the quality that Wizards should be producing (especially if they're subcontracting to people like Wolfgang Bauer).

[MadBear]

The adventure requires players create characters with specific backgrounds that connect them to this specific town, certain NPCs and/or the dragon cult, to motivate them to participate. Otherwise, it is a railroad to get them involved and keep them involved.

I don't think that they need to necessarily have specific backgrounds to go into the town. A general reason should be thought of though. I'm reminded of this article by the Giant.


.... Have you ever had a party break down into fighting over the actions of one of their members? Has a character ever threatened repeatedly to leave the party? Often, intraparty fighting boils down to one player declaring, "That's how my character would react." Heck, often you'll be the one saying it; it's a common reaction when alignments or codes of ethics clash.

However, it also creates a logjam where neither side wants to back down. The key to resolving this problem is to decide to react differently. You are not your character, and your character is not a separate entity with reactions that you cannot control. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a player state that their character's actions are not under their control. Every decision your character makes is your decision first. It is possible and even preferable for you to craft a personality that is consistent but also accommodating of the characters the other players wish to play.

When you think about a situation, ask yourself, "Is this the only way my character can react to this?" Chances are, the answer is, "No." Try to refine your character so that you can deal with situations that conflict with your alignment/ethos without resorting to ultimatums, threats, etc. This will often mean thinking in terms of compromise and concession to your fellow players, or at the very least an agreement to disagree

.... Another useful application of this concept involves accepting story hooks your DM gives to you. Try to never just say, "My character isn't interested in that adventure." A lot of people mistake this for good roleplaying, because you are asserting your character's personality. Wrong. Good roleplaying should never bring the game to a screeching halt. One of your jobs as a player is to come up with a reason why your character would be interested in a plot. After all, your personality is entirely in your hands, not the DM's. Come up with a reason why the adventure (or the reward) might appeal to you, no matter how esoteric or roundabout the reasoning.

If the paladin is to blame for the last problem, this one belongs to the druid. Druids have such a specific set of principles that players often mistake them for being a free pass to demand that each adventure revolve around their goals. Raiding a dungeon for gold doesn't appeal to the druid mindset, so what are you to do if you play one and are presented with that goal? You improvise. Maybe the gold will enable you to purchase magic items that will let you protect the wilderness. Maybe the ruins contain unnatural monsters that need to be killed regardless of the treasure. Maybe, just maybe, the other PCs are your friends and you are willing to help them just because. Too often that last part is forgotten; I don't think anyone reading this has never spent the night doing something they'd rather not because a friend asked.

The beginning of this adventure seems like a smack dab in your face plot hook. Saying, "nah, not interested" is a poor way to play a character. Now, yes, a good DM doesn't have as much forced railroading all the time, but that isn't an excuse for a character to not join in. The game is designed to be played in multiple ways. Some games are open sandboxes, which allow for diverse character choices in where they go, and what they do. Other games have pre-set plots that the characters are following. Both are perfectly viable ways to play the game. One isn't badwrongfun, and the other good gaming, it's just a different focus on preference.

[Rack]

I don't think that they need to necessarily have specific backgrounds to go into the town. A general reason should be thought of though. I'm reminded of this article by the Giant.



The beginning of this adventure seems like a smack dab in your face plot hook. Saying, "nah, not interested" is a poor way to play a character. Now, yes, a good DM doesn't have as much forced railroading all the time, but that isn't an excuse for a character to not join in. The game is designed to be played in multiple ways. Some games are open sandboxes, which allow for diverse character choices in where they go, and what they do. Other games have pre-set plots that the characters are following. Both are perfectly viable ways to play the game. One isn't badwrongfun, and the other good gaming, it's just a different focus on preference.


The thing is "nah not interested" isn't really an appropriate response. "No way, that's suicide" is not only an appropriate response it's the only appropriate response. Unless you're roleplaying as Don Quixote or Leeroy Jenkins there's no way to react other than to say.

"Well this is clearly a terrible idea that will get me killed to absolutely no purpose, but I'm going to go down there. Because... reasons."

Having a railroaded plot isn't the wrong way to play but drawing attention to the rails is. If the players are expected to do something it should at the very least be something a rational human being might consider doing, and ideally be the most reasonable course of action no matter what your motivations are.

[GreenETC]

The beginning of this adventure seems like a smack dab in your face plot hook. Saying, "nah, not interested" is a poor way to play a character. Now, yes, a good DM doesn't have as much forced railroading all the time, but that isn't an excuse for a character to not join in. The game is designed to be played in multiple ways. Some games are open sandboxes, which allow for diverse character choices in where they go, and what they do. Other games have pre-set plots that the characters are following. Both are perfectly viable ways to play the game. One isn't badwrongfun, and the other good gaming, it's just a different focus on preference.
While I agree with the Giant, it does become a bit difficult to explain why any non-heroic character would actively want to charge directly into a war with a dragon without receiving any build up. At least Red Hand of Doom gives you a level fighting Hobgoblins and other beasts to get you invested in fighting in this war before throwing a medium sized dragon at you, and that module starts you off at level 5 or 6. Hoard of the Dragon Queen throws a large powerful dragon at you immediately as the adventure starts, and then expects your level 1 character to not only charge directly into the burning town to save them, but to engage the thing in combat to make it stop attacking. All for a town which, if the DM doesn't tell you about beforehand, you have no knowledge or investment in.

Sure, you can invent a reason why you would want to go, but all of them would sound suicidal at worst and just plain dumb at best.

[Zweisteine]

Wait a minute, your fighter has 9 hp? He actually built a fighter with a negative con? Also 9 AC? So he's wearing no armor and is rocking an 8-9 dex too?

Okay is he playing an idiot fighter on purpose or did he roll his stats and have to put them in that order?
Actually, he's playing a genius fighter. He has 16 intelligence. :smalltongue:

The player has i discernible reasons for this character. I believe he has mistaken his improper stats for good roleplaying, but I'm working on getting it through to him tht this is a really, really bad idea.
He seems to have a taste for inscrutable builds with strange and annoyingly frequent roleplaying quirks. He wants to at his character concepts, which, in this case, doesn't make any sense, and barely fits winning the rules )or rather, doesnr, without some DM fiat he doesn't have). His builds are so inscrutable that he doesn't even tell the DM all about them ahead of time to get permission to twist the rules a little. In fact, he likes having a mysterious backstory, but doesn't want to tell even the DM. I don't think he quite understands player/character separation...

Aaaaaaaaagh. This is all made worse by the fact that the Adventurer's League is not an ideal setting to play with player-confusing characters. This is a place where your character matters, and you'll have to deal with him well beyond the first few levels.

/rant