PDA

View Full Version : Wildshape and Ability Score Increases from Feats



Xetheral
2014-08-26, 01:20 PM
On page 67, it says wildshaping druids "retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so". Feats are only granted by races or class levels, so they arguably qualify as "class features" or, for variant humans, "race features". Even if they didn't, I'm having a hard time imagining an interpretation where feats didn't qualify as an "other source". So it seems likely that Druids can use their feats even while wildshaped.

Given the number of animals with odd physical stats, I would think that feats that provide a +1 bonus to physical ability scores are quite potent for Druids. On the other hand, allowing feats to substantially change the stat block of the animal seems anathema to the principle of keeping things simple by using the animal's stat block in place of your own. Accordingly, it seems like applying ability score increases from feats to wildshape forms might well be unintended. Did I miss something?

The best argument that I can think of against allowing the ability score increases is that the word "increase" is meant implicitly to be a discrete event that happens only once, when you first take the feat. Except, the Tough feat includes such limitation explicitly, stating "Your hit point maximum increases by an amount equal to twice your level when you take this feat." (emphasis added) So, the Tough feat logically doesn't apply when wildshaped, since the increase in maximum hit points already occurred and is later subsumed by the animal form. Should feat stat increases be interpreted similarly, despite lacking the language present in Tough?

(For reference, class-based stat increases include limiting language similar to Tough. Race-based stat increases arguably depend on the physical form of the race, and thus arguably wouldn't be eligible to be applied during wildshape, but that's a different can of worms.)

Human Paragon 3
2014-08-26, 01:26 PM
It's just totally counter to the design philosophy of the edition to have to track and recalculate ability score modifiers based on your feats every time you wild shape. There's no way this was intended.

Ability Boost is a class feature, too. You don't lose your class features when you wild shape, so by that rationale, you'd also keep your ability boosts in wild shape form. It just doesn't make sense.

Eslin
2014-08-26, 01:29 PM
RAW, that works. It also makes sense on a RAI level I guess - why should the stat boosts work in wild shape if you swap them for a feat, but not if you take the stat increase?

Side note: hahahahahahaHAHAHA yessssss

Xetheral
2014-08-26, 02:18 PM
Ability Boost is a class feature, too. You don't lose your class features when you wild shape, so by that rationale, you'd also keep your ability boosts in wild shape form. It just doesn't make sense.

I tend to agree it doesn't make sense, which is why I created the thread. Note that as I mentioned in the parenthetical at the end of my post, ability scores increases from one's class include limiting language similar to the Tough feat: "When you reach 4th level, and again at..." (emphasis added). So, like the Tough feat, class ability score increases happen at a distinct time, and modify your stat block; when you later wildshape, that bonus is lost.

Feats, however, are written differently. Note that if you have Heavy Armor Master, for example, and somehow lose heavy armor proficiency, you lose your +1 bonus to Strength granted by that feat according to the rules for feat prerequisites on page 165. The Tough feat, by contrast, has no prerequsities, but if it did and a character lost them, then because of its limiting language I think you'd only lose the future upon-level-up bonuses it grants, but would keep the already-gained HP maximum increase.

So, to reiterate my ultimate question above, should we implicitly read such limiting language into feats that grant ability score increases, even though they lack the explicit language of the Tough feat (and the similar language in class-based ability score increases)?

(As an aside, my argument about potentially losing the Tough feat if it had prerequisites seems overly nitpicky to me. Maybe all feat benefits should be 'undone' if prerequisites are lost, regardless of how the feat is worded? But wouldn't that undermine the case for not applying class-based ability score increases to wildshaped forms?)