Wouldn't it be possible...

[Fishies]

...to avoid death by old age if you kill and reincarnate yourself when you're about to die? (You only lose a level, and you get resurrected into a Young Adult body)

[Stevenson]

They cover this in Complete Divine, actually. Most people don't do this because most people start to become one with their plane of existance when they die. Only people with strong forces of personality or unfinished business (like most PCs) really would want to come back from the dead in the first place, once they die.

[Fishies]

They cover this in Complete Divine, actually. Most people don't do this because most people start to become one with their plane of existance when they die. Only people with strong forces of personality or unfinished business (like most PCs) really would want to come back from the dead in the first place, once they die.

Yes, but I'm talking about avoiding death by old age. Would this actually work and beat the system? Oh, and if old age gives bonuses to mental stats, then you can probably have a high INT/WIS/CHA, right? And if you die at level 4 and get reincarnated to level 3, then when you level up again, would you get that +1 stat point?

[The_Snark]

Yes, but I'm talking about avoiding death by old age. Would this actually work and beat the system? Oh, and if old age gives bonuses to mental stats, then you can probably have a high INT/WIS/CHA, right? And if you die at level 4 and get reincarnated to level 3, then when you level up again, would you get that +1 stat point?

Yes, but you lost it when you lost level 4, so you aren't gaining anything you didn't have before. Same with feats and skill points.

As for beating the system, I think it works. Reincarnating yourself into a young body is pretty traditional fantasy, and the age bonuses aren't ever going to rise above +3.

[Dhavaer]

It does work, yes, although you might have trouble finding a way to reincarnate yourself.

The old age mental stat thing is very, very confusing, and I don't think there's a RAW method of resolving it. The only answer is 'ask your DM'.

[Fishies]

It does work, yes, although you might have trouble finding a way to reincarnate yourself.

So I can't just have my friend cast the spell on me?

[Bears With Lasers]

It does work, yes, although you might have trouble finding a way to reincarnate yourself.

Craft Contingent Spell.

[Fishies]

Or maybe I could throw an oil of reincarnate into the air where I'm standing, and then kill myself right before it lands...

[13_CBS]

If you kept doing this, though, wouldn't an Inevitable come after you?

[Orzel]

It works. But you kept doing this, an Inevitable would come after you!!

[Stevenson]

Well, more like going over to a random cleric and saying, "here's some money, revive me in about...say....20 minutes."

Yes, it would, technically, work. If, for some reason, the person in question was A) Rich and B) Had a real reason to want to come back. Something important, that is. Not just wanting to live. Because, as it says in complete Divine, every rich person doesn't keep coming back because they feel the pull of the afterlife too strongly once they're their.

[Fishies]

Just kill the inevitable...

[The_Snark]

Or maybe I could throw an oil of reincarnate into the air where I'm standing, and then kill myself right before it lands...

Reincarnate is one level too high for that. If you have a friend cast it, you're going to need an immortal friend, too, unless you're both druids. In which case you're both immortal.

And of course, the spell's only available to druids, and most of those tend to believe in living a fairly natural lifespan.


If you kept doing this, though, wouldn't an Inevitable come after you?

Very possibly.

[SpiderBrigade]

Yes. This is exactly one of the things Inevitables are FOR.

edit:
Just kill the inevitable...Ok, that's quite plausible for adventurers, yes. So the next time, 10 Inevitables come. Or some kind of advanced Inevitable.

Or, not, depending on the campaign. There's no need to continually persecute the player with inevitables if A) you don't have a problem with endless life, or B) you didn't at least try to talk him out of it, if you do.

But, usually, anyone devoting serious time and energy to not perishing from old age is probably shooting for something to break the game with. Thus, Inevitables.

[crazedloon]

Yep it would work then an Inevitable would come and rock your socks right off and after that you will wish you were dead :smallwink:

[13_CBS]

@ Fishies: I can't imagine the other Inevitables being very happy if you kept killing their agents, though...

[Mewtarthio]

So I can't just have my friend cast the spell on me?

I doubt a Druid would be particularly keen on doing that if your only reason was "I wanna live forever!" Of course, an Archivist that somehow got a copy would work, as would a Chameleon with sufficient Wisdom. I could even see a villain doing this to prevent recognition. The downside is that eventually you get these nasty Maruts who get upset and try to kill you.

[Orzel]

It's hard to kill 5 maruts.

[Bears With Lasers]

It's not that hard.

[Fishies]

It's hard to kill 5 maruts.

Unless if you're epic.


I could even see a villain doing this to prevent recognition. The downside is that eventually you get these nasty Maruts who get upset and try to kill you.


Yeah, I was thinking that this would be an annoying tactic for a recurring villain...

[Orzel]

It's not that hard.

Lies!
They are greater dispel magic, dimension door, and chain lightning spamming monsters.

Poor Nopus the Lich.

[Assassinfox]

If you're gonna go through all the trouble of setting up a chain of reincarnation, you might as well craft something to protect you from Maruts.

[Fishies]

Lies!
They are greater dispel magic, dimension door, and chain lightning spamming monsters.

Poor Nopus the Lich.



112 HP... I think a high level sorcerer can take them in a few rounds.

[13_CBS]

Question; how many Maruts can come at you? Even high level spellcasters would have trouble with, say, a dozen+ Maruts, no?

[Mewtarthio]

Question; how many Maruts can come at you? Even high level spellcasters would have trouble with, say, a dozen+ Maruts, no?

Answer: As many as your opponent, who's been sequestered in his basement casting Greater Planar Binding (or, worse, Ally), manages to call.

...Say, technically, should an Inevitable even demand payment for doing its duty? Shouldn't it be thanking you for showing it the violation and giving it the means to exact justice?

[Orzel]

They normally come alone. Once you get to multiples, running is the best option even at level 20.

[Emperor Tippy]

Not really. Time Stop + Dimensional Lock + Forcecage + Teleport

Congrats, you just single handedly contained a Marut for the next 40 hours. There is no possible way for him to escape.

The maruts can't track you easily at all and they are compelled to follow you. After you have rested and about 20 hours have passed cast greater invisibility on your self and teleport back to the marut. Lower the forcecage And next round hit him with a disintegrate. His SR won't stop a 20th level wizard and if you really want you can Assay Spell resistance first. His fort save is only +7 so its highly unlikely if its even possible that the marut woudl make that save on anything except a natural 20. Average Damage is more than a Maruts HP.

You can do that pretty much forever without much risk. You destroy 1 every 2 days and get 1,000 XP for each one. So after 20 you reach level 21. 22 more and your at level 22. 23 more and your at level 23. Another 23 and your at level 24. 24 more and your at level 25.

So at 1 per 2 days (and you could really do 1 per day) it only takes you 224 days to reach level 25. Never were you really in any danger. In fact this is actually one of the easiest ways to level. Piss off the Inevitable's because they just keep sending them at you and they are easy to beat.

[The_Snark]

You can kill them... but if there isn't an inevitable whose job it is to remove people who kill too many inevitables and persist in their flaunting of the laws, there should be.

And if you get unlucky and annoy a Lawful Good god with all this, you'll be eating one of the Book of Exalted Deed's Aleaxes. No matter how awesome you are, it likely still kills you. Then you have to deal with the god, who probably demands you stop your infinite reincarnation change.

[Orzel]

At level 20, they'd send 3+ maruts at you. They spam greater dispel, walk up to you, and beat you senseless.

[Assassinfox]

You can kill them... but if there isn't an inevitable whose job it is to remove people who kill too many inevitables and persist in their flaunting of the laws, there should be.

And if you get unlucky and annoy a Lawful Good god with all this, you'll be eating one of the Book of Exalted Deed's Aleaxes. No matter how awesome you are, it likely still kills you. Then you have to deal with the god, who probably demands you stop your infinite reincarnation change.

Can't only the particular deity you worship create aleaxes of you?

[crazedloon]

Can't only the particular deity you worship create aleaxes of you?

nope its any deity that you piss off (and I mean realy piss off as they risk sacrificing part of themselves)

[Assassinfox]

Well, then, it's doubtful that you'd piss off a LG deity just by keeping yourself alive. You'd have to use your infinite lifespan to spread evil and decay. Or, possibly cause a lot of collateral damage with your daily Marut battle...

[marjan]

And if you get unlucky and annoy a Lawful Good god with all this, you'll be eating one of the Book of Exalted Deed's Aleaxes. No matter how awesome you are, it likely still kills you. Then you have to deal with the god, who probably demands you stop your infinite reincarnation change.

Play in Eberron. Gods there (if they exist) don't give a s*** about what's happening on Material Plane.


Not really. Time Stop + Dimensional Lock + Forcecage + Teleport

Or just disintigrate him immediatly.


At level 20, they'd send 3+ maruts at you. They spam greater dispel, walk up to you, and beat you senseless.

And with CL 14 for greater dispell they won't dispel anything that has CL 20 and has Ring of Enduring Arcana. Just cast black Blade of Disaster and they will all die in a couple of rounds.

[Emperor Tippy]

At level 20, they'd send 3+ maruts at you. They spam greater dispel, walk up to you, and beat you senseless.

Have you ever attacked a well played level 20? You can't surprise them without teleporting in and Anticipate Teleport, Greater defeats even that.

And there dispels don't do anything. Even if they manage to dispel one of your buffs you timestop on your first action (and you go first due ot numerous different things). Preferably maximized with a rod.

Once a wizard has timestopped he has won.

EDIT: The problem with disintegrate immediately is that unless you quicken it you can't get away without them getting a chance to attack. And I was assuming a dozen or so of the things are after you at once.

If its only 3 you just Quickened Disintegrate (rod) followed by a disintegrate. That only leaves the 1 guy for next round.

[The_Snark]

How is a druid managing to cast any of that? It's a druid-only spell, here. A wizard could use Wish to imitate it, but that's about it.

It's feasible for there to be advanced maruts, and extremely powerful lawful beings who would take issue with you repeatedly slaughtering maruts. For that matter, if you're using Time Stop, Wish, and such, you're going to get hit with more powerful inevitables—quaruts from the Fiend Folio, which are a bit more threatening because they mess around with time too.

But if you're in Ebberon, you may as well be a warforged and be immortal from the start. Elans are also immortal... I wonder if they have to deal with maruts?

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah. My race of choice is the Elan in most cases. None of the problems with aging, or eating, and you only need to sleep half as much.

Warforged is good though.

[marjan]

But if you're in Ebberon, you may as well be a warforged and be immortal from the start. Elans are also immortal... I wonder if they have to deal with maruts?

But where is fun in that?


you're going to get hit with more powerful inevitables—quaruts from the Fiend Folio

Only if your DM has fiend folio.:smallwink:

[Mewtarthio]

Only if your DM has fiend folio.:smallwink:

You'd better hope so. Otherwise, you get hit by the homebrewed Rockut and his Fall (Ex) ability.

[Diggorian]

This is a great reason while I mandated divine casters have a patron deity in my games. If the druid's god/dess doesnt like this usage of Reincarnate, it doesnt get cast ... period. I'd even ask for a Knowledge Religion check before hand to recall their disfavor to save the caster time and resources.

[marjan]

And in any way just say to your DM that stuggle between good and evil is neverending battle and therefore your job in this life is never realy finished so you need to come back every time you die. And hope your DM will swallow crap like that.:smalltongue:

[Assassinfox]

Or, you could skip this whole mess, pick up a copy of Necromancy for Dummies, and start building your phylactery.

[Tommer_man]

Thank you for that bit of sanity....

First, inevitables will slay you no matter what fancy crap you pull. In one of the supplement monster manuals they give you two advanced inevitables. These things are built to take on leet PC's that try to beat the system.

Second, Reencarnate is a DM's fancy because you don't just POP! new body, theres a chance you become something else. A friend in one game reencarnated as a spider when he tried that trick (Twas funny, him being afraid of spiders and all that).

Third, just make a new friggin character? Your character dies of old age... what kind of megalo maniac (Who isn't evil mind you) will resist death by natural causes THAT much. Thats just not realistic and frankly a DM should mark that under BAD role playing.

Forth, LG gods would intervein in that case because LAWFUL good gods respect order, inclueding the NATURAL order. But they don't respect NATURAL things as much as some group of people.... hmm I wonder who those people that respect the NATURAL order of things...Druids! and who casts reencarnate?....DRUIDS! Not even a good friend should cast the spell on you even if you asked, it would risk losing class abilities (Spell casting comes to mind). So thats just out of the question.

Answer: No, the system (although deeply flawed and has its holes) prevails on trying to cheat death. Not possible....unless your evil, then yeah be a friggin lich, there you win no death for chacho.

[Mewtarthio]

This is a great reason while I mandated divine casters have a patron deity in my games. If the druid's god/dess doesnt like this usage of Reincarnate, it doesnt get cast ... period. I'd even ask for a Knowledge Religion check before hand to recall their disfavor to save the caster time and resources.

What about UMD Rogues, Chameleons, Archivists with permissive deities, and the like?


Or, you could skip this whole mess, pick up a copy of Necromancy for Dummies, and start building your phylactery.

Reincarnate has the added advantage of giving you an entirely new body. Thus, your enemies will never suspect that that cute sixteen-year-old half-elf girl is actually the 5,000-year-old drow archmage they thought they'd slain.

Of course, Psion (Telepath)s have a much more fun route to immortality-through-new-body: True Mind Switch. Have somebody cast Greater Invisibility on your Psicrystal, and then have that psicrystal 'port over to a random nursery within a mile of your location. Use the Sight Link ability to pick out a suitable infant (preferably one born to a well-to-do or noble family), then Channel TMS through the psicrystal. You are now a newborn babe who commands awesome psionic potential, while your old body is screaming and mewling elsewhere (whoever cast Greater Invisibility on you can deal with that. I dunno, maybe Binding or somesuch to preserve the body).

"Can you say 'da-da'?"
"Of course I can, you imbecile! I command mental potential so great that you would be reduced to a gibbering lump of flesh if you even the slightest of my secrets! Worlds twist and bend to my will! I was once the most powerful creature in all of creation, but now I have decided to take this body and bide my time. My strength remains unaltered, but my enemies think me dead. Now bow before your lord and master!"
"..."
"I mean... uh... Psionic Modify Memory!"
"Aw, aren't you the cutest little thing?"

[paigeoliver]

Reincarnate is a cheap scroll (700 GP in the DMG). You don't need any druids to do it. Most in game reincarnations I have actually seen have been done by bards using UMD and a scroll. My Living Greyhawk character has been reincarnated twice (and raised once), started human, then High Elf, and now half-orc. In a couple years of gametime she just can't seem to get any older than about 16 because she keeps dying and getting new bodies.

The random table in 3.5 D&D is way friendlier than the ones in the older versions.

2nd edition The arcane version gave you a 52 percent chance as coming back as one of many humanoid races that were not normally PC races. The divine version was way worse, only a 21 percent chance of getting a PC race, a 54 percent chance as coming back as something totally unplayable (animal or a fey type that is tied to a single tree), and a large "DM's choice" slot which is how people kept getting turned into rust monsters and spiders.

[hewhosaysfish]

"Can you say 'da-da'?"
"Of course I can, you imbecile! I command mental potential so great that you would be reduced to a gibbering lump of flesh if you even the slightest of my secrets! Worlds twist and bend to my will! I was once the most powerful creature in all of creation, but now I have decided to take this body and bide my time. My strength remains unaltered, but my enemies think me dead. Now bow before your lord and master!"
"..."
"I mean... uh... Psionic Modify Memory!"
"Aw, aren't you the cutest little thing?"

So your next character is Stewie from Family Guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Stewiefamilyguy.gif

[daggaz]

Heh. You better be DAMN sure the guy who is casting this spell/reading this scroll, is actually gonna do it for you, instead of just say....walking off with all of your loot. That's the kind of favor you would only ask a lifelong friend, and even then, it could go badly.

[ZekeArgo]

Thank you for that bit of sanity....

First, inevitables will slay you no matter what fancy crap you pull. In one of the supplement monster manuals they give you two advanced inevitables. These things are built to take on leet PC's that try to beat the system.

Without caster levels equal to or above said spellcasters it is futile. Even *then* you would have to out-plan and out-magic the well played wizard


Second, Reencarnate is a DM's fancy because you don't just POP! new body, theres a chance you become something else. A friend in one game reencarnated as a spider when he tried that trick (Twas funny, him being afraid of spiders and all that).Which is why you take the natural spell feat before beginning this combo, then polymorph any object or whatever other cheese your going for


Third, just make a new friggin character? Your character dies of old age... what kind of megalo maniac (Who isn't evil mind you) will resist death by natural causes THAT much. Thats just not realistic and frankly a DM should mark that under BAD role playing.Fear and unacceptance of death are evil only? Wow, so your saying anyone whos good wants to die and wont put their vast resources to work in order to maintain their lives?


Forth, LG gods would intervein in that case because LAWFUL good gods respect order, inclueding the NATURAL order. But they don't respect NATURAL things as much as some group of people.... hmm I wonder who those people that respect the NATURAL order of things...Druids! and who casts reencarnate?....DRUIDS! Not even a good friend should cast the spell on you even if you asked, it would risk losing class abilities (Spell casting comes to mind). So thats just out of the question.Or you could go to your UMD-using buddy (Hi Mr. Artificer) and have him create and utilize a staff of reincarnation.


Answer: No, the system (although deeply flawed and has its holes) prevails on trying to cheat death. Not possible....unless your evil, then yeah be a friggin lich, there you win no death for chacho.And arcane casting along with the proper preperation wins yet again.

That isn't to say that everyone *should* do this, but if your concept is someone who wants to live forever to combat the forces of evil or whatever other reason, and you don't want to go into something like monk or druid or whatnot, then why shouldn't you be able to use any rules-legal work around thats at your disposal?

[marjan]

That isn't to say that everyone *should* do this, but if your concept is someone who wants to live forever to combat the forces of evil or whatever other reason, and you don't want to go into something like monk or druid or whatnot

If you are saying (it sounds like that) that monks and druids live forever (I think someone already mentioned that) you are wrong. Timeless Body only negates ability penalties for aging not death from old age.


Fear and unacceptance of death are evil only? Wow, so your saying anyone whos good wants to die and wont put their vast resources to work in order to maintain their lives?


And with this I agree, totaly.

[AtomicKitKat]

I could totally see a cabal of Neutral Evil Druids doing this. With Timeless Body, they never get the penalties, and shortly after crossing into Venerable, they go to the great Dire Bear guardian of their forest, where they engage in the fight of doom, and Reincarnate.

[Bender]

Just checked out the Marot, they have an advancement entry:
16-28 HD (Large); 29-45 HD (Huge)
which answers the call for better Marots, I guess a huge 45 HD marot is less easy to beat...

anyway, I just wondered: does anyone actually get to the point where their PC's age becomes an issue? I thought the age categories only existed for starting with an older PC...

[AtomicKitKat]

Just checked out the Marot, they have an advancement entry:16-28 HD (Large); 29-45 HD (Huge)
which answers the call for better Marots, I guess a huge 45 HD marot is less easy to beat...

anyway, I just wondered: does anyone actually get to the point where their PC's age becomes an issue? I thought the age categories only existed for starting with an older PC...

Previously seen on these boards:


I shall go to sleep for 500 years so my enemy is dead

Also good for things like fighting Liches(see CRPG AD&D module Secret of the Silver Blades). Spoiler below warning.

That hot Amazon warrior woman Vala was something like 530 years old when she was rescued. Granted, she'd been preserved in ice, but the same didn't hold true for her Dwarven companion. Apparently, sleeping for 500 years also gives one major Paladin class features, or at least the one that defines them the most(the stick class feature...)

[Gamebird]

Another issue: Do DMs really send in-game monsters to fix out-of-game power-mongering issues? Inevitables are like the most stupid monsters ever. What next? Inevitable-devoted-to-punishing-those-who-touch-the-DM's-dice? Inevitable-devoted-to-punishing-those-who-mooch-too-much-pizza?

[Emperor Tippy]

AtomicKitKat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=8801) , I've done that before. You can get timeless body at level 6-7 and in a gestalt game I went wizard//Monk/tattoo monk and once I got it I put my party in stasis (Smoky Confinement in CM) and slept until I was venerable.

The DM was slightly annoyed but I wanted my +3 to each mental stat.

[AtomicKitKat]

Meh. Inevitables=more easy XP. All you gotta do is figure out which Inevitable you have the best chance of killing with the spells you have, find out the "Law" that they uphold(I personally prefer to break the Laws of Thermodynamics, but there's not Entroput...yet.), and break it. Constantly. Repeatedly. Until the Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus decides to elevate you to deity status so that you are removed from the game. ;)

[Diggorian]

What about UMD Rogues, Chameleons, Archivists with permissive deities, and the like?

UMD Rogues first have to find the MD that casts Reincarnate, which can be a campaign in and of itself. I dont see druids in my game being big magic item crafters, doesnt quite fit their flavor IMO, though possible.

Chameleons and Archivists I've never seen stats on, so arent allowed as player options in my games.

If a permissable deity allows it, it's OK by me, cause as DM I'm RPing that deity. If a chaotic druidic god allows it though, it's not absurd to figure there's a lawful power that's gonna oppose this. Such is the Balance.

[Fishies]

If you are saying (it sounds like that) that monks and druids live forever (I think someone already mentioned that) you are wrong. Timeless Body only negates ability penalties for aging not death from old age.


I always thought that rule was kind of stupid. I mean, people don't actually die of old age. They die of diseases and crap that they get when they're old...

[Emperor Tippy]

You can get timeless body as a level 6-7 monk.
Monk 4 or 5 and then tattoo monk 3. With the right tattoos you also never need to eat, sleep, or drink again.

[Diggorian]

Another issue: Do DMs really send in-game monsters to fix out-of-game power-mongering issues? Inevitables are like the most stupid monsters ever. What next? Inevitable-devoted-to-punishing-those-who-touch-the-DM's-dice? Inevitable-devoted-to-punishing-those-who-mooch-too-much-pizza?

Actually, using an in-game spell to cheat in-game death is an in-game problem.

I like the Inevitable concept. We've had Angels to aid good, Demons and Devils to aid factions of evil, now extraplanar agents of order appear. They're like Borg enforcers: "Resistance is futile, for justice ... is Inevitable." :smallamused:

I wouldnt send them after every kid that breaks a promise to not sneak sweets before dinner nor folks taking medicine to "cheat death", but once in a blue moon one could show up to let a player realize in how much trouble they are -- ofcourse advancing them to present a challenging encounter for a PC trying to thwart justice.

[Orzel]

I wouldnt send them after every kid that breaks a promise to not sneak sweets before dinner nor folks taking medicine to "cheat death", but once in a blue moon one could show up to let a player realize in how much trouble they are -- ofcourse advancing them to present a challenging encounter for a PC trying to thwart justice.

In one game a god got sick and sent maruts at everyone who ever was healed by magic. Evil clerics were healing people for free those days.

[lumberofdabeast]

Elans are also immortal...

*pokes head in* No, they aren't. Their maximum age isn't in the SRD for some reason, but it is in XPH.

And why would evil clerics be healing anyone for free?

[beholder]

so the maruts would attack them

[Assassinfox]

And why would evil clerics be healing anyone for free?

I'm guessing it's because the crazy god was sending maruts after everyone who got magical healing and the evil clerics wanted to spread the pain.

[Emperor Tippy]

*pokes head in* No, they aren't. Their maximum age isn't in the SRD for some reason, but it is in XPH.

And why would evil clerics be healing anyone for free?

Look at the XPH Errata. Its been errataed that they don't have a max age.