Catfolk ninja: Claws or Weapons?

[Togath]

As the title suggests, I'm a bit stuck.
I was building a catfolk ninja, but I'm having trouble deciding between using their natural claws(2 1d4 claw attacks, can pounce eventually, and sneak attack dices are d8s) or weapons(two wakizashi, so 1d6 with a 18/x2 crit. it gets potentially 4 more attacks than the claws build, but deals less sneak attack damage per hit[though has more potential hits], consumes more feats, and is less mobile)

Any advice?
My gut says claws are probably the better choice, since they're cheaper(feat-wise and gold-wise) and you can pounce with them, but I wasn't sure if they were as good as they looked, since I don't have as much experience with PF as I do with 3.5.

[Psyren]

Claws are cheaper to enhance and pounce is... well, awesome. I would go with the claws.

You can actually get more attacks with the claws since you are going ninja. Simply dip a level of monk, take the Flurry ninja trick, and take Feral Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat) (claws.). Now you have full flurry with your claws, which is basically the TWF stuff you were going to do with the wakizashi, except you get your full strength bonus on every hit instead of half. (or full Dex bonus, if using Agile on your amulet of mighty fists.)

EDIT: Note that you shouldn't really have to dip monk to use FCT, I just mentioned that in case your DM is a stickler.

[grarrrg]

Option 1: Claws
Pros: better Sneak Damage, fewer feats, only need to buy 1 "weapon" (Amulet of Mighty Fists), yu can haz pounse!

Option 2: Weapons
Pros: more attacks on a Full Attack, better Critical range and/or Crit multiplier

Option 3: BOTH!
Claw Blades (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/claw-blades) are a thing, and should arguably still work with anything "Claw" related. Just keep in mind that the are no longer "Natural" attacks, they are now fully "Manufactured weapon" attacks.
Pros: Better Sneak Damage, more attacks on a Full Attack, yu can haz pounse!

Option 3b: BOTH! 2: The Quickening
Combine a Claw Blade with a 'normal' Claw attack. Your Blade will use Full Bab (no "two weapon -2 to-hit" penalties), and you don't need any extra feats (Naturals can normally be combined with a other attacks). Downside is that your 'normal' Claw is at -5 to-hit, and only gets 1/2 STR to damage (which shouldn't matter much on a Sneak Attack). And YU STIL CAN HAZ POUNSE!

[Togath]

Just noticed one downside to pounce: it requires the sprinter racial.
Is pounce enough of a boost to make up for not being able to get climber?(and having to invest in strength)

I might still try it, and the claw blades definitely look like they could be useful, though I may go with an amulet of mighty fists until I'm a high enough level to gain a boost to my number of attacks from them(until 8th level, claw blades only give two attacks, both at -2, and I figure I can sell my amulet once I reach a high enough level to help pay for the claw blades).

edit: the fourth might be worth considering, though I do worry that it might border on RAW exploitation, at least in my gm's eyes.

edit 2: can't find the price/weight stats for the claw blades anywhere...


Claws are cheaper to enhance and pounce is... well, awesome. I would go with the claws.

You can actually get more attacks with the claws since you are going ninja. Simply dip a level of monk, take the Flurry ninja trick, and take Feral Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat) (claws.). Now you have full flurry with your claws, which is basically the TWF stuff you were going to do with the wakizashi, except you get your full strength bonus on every hit instead of half. (or full Dex bonus, if using Agile on your amulet of mighty fists.)

EDIT: Note that you shouldn't really have to dip monk to use FCT, I just mentioned that in case your DM is a stickler.

I don't understand at all. What "flurry ninja trick"?
Is it something not on the srd?

[Psyren]

I don't understand at all. What "flurry ninja trick"?
Is it something not on the srd?

Oops, my bad. I was thinking Unarmed Combat Mastery gave you flurry for some reason. Disregard that. Yeah, Claw Blades are probably your best bet even if they are more expensive than the amulet, and they'll work with the TWF line.


Just noticed one downside to pounce: it requires the sprinter racial.
Is pounce enough of a boost to make up for not being able to get climber?(and having to invest in strength)

Yes, definitely. For starters, as a Ninja you should have no problem leaping around anywhere, and it won't be long before you can simply fly. You also get climb as a class skill and there's really no need to invest in strength with it, a 10 should be fine.

And third.... come on, it's pounce! Just think, you win initiative, charge somebody and reduce them to bloody ribbons while they're flat-footed.


edit 2: can't find the price/weight stats for the claw blades anywhere...

305 gp and 2lbs each. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/featuredRaces/catfolk.html#_claw-blades)

[Togath]

My worry about strength is that pounce requires a 13, and I'm using point buy(12, 20, 14, 10, 8, 14 build currently. I suppose I could lower the wisdom one more notch) :3
I may still try the claw blade path though, since it isn't too much more expensive than an amulet(what metals would be good to make them out of?).
Only worry now is deciding if I should start with them or not(starting level is 7, with 20k gold)..

[Psyren]

My worry about strength is that pounce requires a 13, and I'm using point buy :3
I may still try the claw blade path though, since it isn't too much more expensive than an amulet(what metals would be good to make them out of?).

It's worth it I'd say.

As for metal - In Pathfinder it doesn't actually matter, since a +4 weapon will overcome any material-based DR. So whatever you feel like, really. Adamantine will let you claw through doors or cut holes in walls so that is always a good choice. If you think you'll run into a material-based DR before you can enchant them that high, then go ahead and make them out of that.

At low levels, before you enchant them, you can keep a few pairs - cold iron, silver and adamantine to switch between, then focus on the adamantine ones for enchanting as you gain levels.

[Togath]

At low levels, before you enchant them, you can keep a few pairs - cold iron, silver and adamantine to switch between, then focus on the adamantine ones for enchanting as you gain levels.

Aren't they just dead weight pre-level 8 though?
Until you get a second attack from BAB, duel wielding claws is just the same as using your natural ones, but with a -2 to-hit penalty, no?

[grarrrg]

edit: the fourth might be worth considering, though I do worry that it might border on RAW exploitation, at least in my gm's eyes.

RAW Exploitation? I ain't even gotten started!

*Disclaimer: You are perfectly free to disregard the following as pure utter crazy/awesome nonsense. Read at your own discretion*

First off, you use your Claws as Natural weapons.
Then you take the Heirloom Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/equipment-traits/heirloom-weapon) Trait to get Weap-Prof. with the Dwarven Boulder Helm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/helmet-dwarven-boulder). Exotic Light weapon with 1d4 20/x2. Main selling point is that it does NOT use a Hand, but still fully functions as a weapon.
Then you get a Blade Boot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/blade-boot) Martial Light weapon with 1d4 20/x2. This uses a Foot slot, so your hands/Claws are perfectly free.

The only remaining problem is that the Blade Boot makes terrain 1 step more difficult when it's extended, and there is no easy way to 'reset' it. Also, the Blade Boot is a Martial weapon, and Ninja's don't get Martial prof.
That's where 1 level of Unarmed Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/unarmed-fighter) comes in. This gets you all Martial Proficiencies, AND a free Style feat (ignore most Req's). Grab Dragon Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-style-combat), this lets you ignore Difficult Terrain when Charging.

Finally, take the Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) archetype (it is legal for a Ninja to take a Rogue archetype, so long as they still have the features to trade).

First round of combat, you Charge in with Catfolk-Pounce and hit with both Claw attacks for full Sneak Attack damage (whether or not they are flat-footed, the Scout Archetype will still give you Sneak damage).
Second round of combat (if first opponent still alive), pop the Boot Blade and Full-attack with Helm/Boot/Claw/Claw. The Helm and Boot take a -2 to-hit penalty from TWF (you'll need that feat too, if you didn't guess), and the Claws take -5 to-hit due to 'Naturals being used with Manufactured'.
Repeat Full-Attack until dead.
When first opponent dead, repeat Charge>Full attack (Dragon Style lets you Charge with the Boot Blade not being an issue).

The only hole currently is that you cannot make a 5ft. Step in Difficult Terrain (Boot Blade). You are severely nerfed if an opponent is 5ft. away. Less than that and you can Full-Attack, more than that and you can Claw-Pounce.
Thankfully there are (at least) 2 solutions: Nimble Moves (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/nimble-moves---final) allows you to 5ft.-step into Difficult Terrain. Or the good old Lunge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lunge-combat---final) Feat will let ALL of your attack have Reach.
Nimble Moves has easier requirements, so you can take it whenever, Lunge isn't an option until you have 6 Bab.

[/crazy]

[Ravens_cry]

If you get An Amulet of Mighty Fists: Agile and take Weapon Finesse, you really don't need to invest in Strength.

[Togath]

I meant for claw pounce(requires 13 str):smallsmile:
Admittedly, it's only one point.

Also; would eldritch heritage(arcane)* be any good?
*with the possible addition of improved familiar