Wild Shape and Improved Unarmed Strike.

[Drakos Viren]

Hello Playground, creeping out of the woodwork again.

I'm building a character (which has some houserules applied to it) for a campaign in the Midnight setting, which is based off 3.5. This character is going to be getting wild shape in the future, and I'm having a LOT of trouble working out the attacks.

The issue is, my character is going to have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat (similar to the monk version), which, as far as I can tell, is usable in wild shape, if one wishes. SO:

1) Can I take my iterative attacks in wild shape using IUS? Fluff wise, this may sometimes seem ridiculous, but it works by RAW?

2) If I take said attacks with IUS, do I get any of the form's natural attacks? Just the secondary? Or all of them, as secondary?

3) Will I be able to use Snap Kick, A) If I use the iteratives, or B) If I use the Natural attacks, or C) Both?


As an example, please use a Dire Hawk (link (http://eldynforests.webs.com/direhawkstats.htm)), as that will likely be the first form I can access. Its base is Claw/Claw, Bite secondary.

I believe:

1) Yes, and yes.

2) I have no idea

3) Yes for both, because IUS and Natural Weapons are both melee attacks.

If you could help me out, clarification is much appreciated. What I would absolutely love, however, is if you could guide me to the places in the rulebooks where these clarifications exist so I can properly help my DM figure it out as well with RAW to back me up. I know there are some unarmed wild shape threads in here and I did take a gander at them, but I couldn't really make heads or tails of the basic rules for number of attacks and methods. Thanks for any help in advance!

[Mato]

Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves?
If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus). The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5 penalty for secondary natural attacks. An 4th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +7 (+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +3 from his 8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes three unarmed strikes, at +5/+5/+0. He can add two hoof attacks at –2/–2 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the flurry).

If a creature with multiple natural attacks (such as the standard two claws and a bite array) takes levels of monk, how do flurry of blows and its natural attack progression interact?
You can’t use a natural weapon (claw, bite, or whatever) as part of a flurry of blows—only unarmed strikes and special monk weapons can be used in a flurry of blows. If a creature can use one of its natural weapons as a secondary attack in conjunction with manufactured weapon attacks, it can do the same with that natural weapon in conjunction with a flurry of blows. Any penalty assessed on attacks by the flurry of blows would also apply to the natural weapon attack.

For example, a typical lizardfolk can attack with a club and its bite as part of a full attack. Normally, a creature would take a –5 penalty on an attack roll made with a secondary weapon, but since the lizardfolk has Multiattack, the penalty on the attack roll is reduced to –2 and adds only half the lizardfolk’s Strength bonus on the damage roll. If it were a 1st-level monk, it could make a flurry of blows (using unarmed strikes, not claw attacks), then add a bite attack as a secondary attack. Each unarmed strike would have a –2 penalty (from flurry of blows), and the bite attack would have a –4 penalty (–2 from flurry of blows and –2 from being a secondary weapon, reduced from –5 by Multiattack).Extra characters.

[Drakos Viren]

Thank you!

[Bronk]

I would add (since you specified dire hawk form) that you might have some trouble making a full attack while flying... you might need to improve your flight maneuverability and find a way to hover.

[Darrin]

1) Can I take my iterative attacks in wild shape using IUS? Fluff wise, this may sometimes seem ridiculous, but it works by RAW?


Yes. Some druid players refer to this as "Kung Fu Panda". I think Mato covered it pretty well with the FAQ entries.



2) If I take said attacks with IUS, do I get any of the form's natural attacks? Just the secondary? Or all of them, as secondary?


All of your natural attacks, including your primary attacks, become secondary attacks by RAW. This is in the Monster Manual page 311:

"Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise (using the manufactured weapon consumes most of the creature’s attention), and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks."
(emphasis added)



3) Will I be able to use Snap Kick, A) If I use the iteratives, or B) If I use the Natural attacks, or C) Both?


Both. Snap Kick works whenever "you make a melee attack". This includes standard action attacks, full-round attacks, charges, and standard actions that include a melee attack (such as ToB maneuvers). It can even be used on AoOs, since that is a "melee attack".

The RAW on Snap Kick is a little murky, since "attack action" is not explicitly defined in the rules, and it's not clear from the wording if Snap Kick can be invoked on each attack or is a once-per-round kinda thing. Most folks play it as once-per-round.

[Necroticplague]

1) Can I take my iterative attacks in wild shape using IUS? Fluff wise, this may sometimes seem ridiculous, but it works by RAW?

2) If I take said attacks with IUS, do I get any of the form's natural attacks? Just the secondary? Or all of them, as secondary?

3) Will I be able to use Snap Kick, A) If I use the iteratives, or B) If I use the Natural attacks, or C) Both?


1. Yep. All creatures have an unarmed attack, though it usually isn't listed due to lack of use. Fluffwise its not too ridiculous; you just hit them with something that doesn't have a natural weapon on it.

2.Yes. All of them as secondary, even if they would normally be your only one. The Unarmed Strike is a manufactured weapon, so this is the exact same, mechanically, as stabbing someone with a sword, then using natural attacks.

3. C; both. Snap Kick is fairly open in its use, and activates whenever you make an attack (with one or more weapons). This attack can be unarmed (using 'unarmed strike' weapon),armed, natural after several others, in the middle of an AoO, a strike, ect.