Low level nice spells (Magic Initiate feat)

[TomPliss]

Hey guys,

Looking at the Magic Initiate feat, I was wondering which class and spells could make it interesting.

On an armored PC, Shocking Grasp is always nice when you get in front of an enemy as armored as you (especially when you want to help your friends get away from him because of the reaction prevention), and Shield can help negate this one heavy blow. Moreover, both are available from Wizard and Sorcerer, so you get to choose whether put levels in Int or in Cha.

When looking from the other way, it seems that Druid and Cleric, the two Wisdom classes, have less to offer (if you don't take the feat to take a healing spell). Clerec has many spells blocked by the Domain mecanism, and the druid has a really limited spell list (even if Thorn Whip may be one of the best cantrip, with both damage and control, in a way a melee character may want).


What do you think about this feat ?
Would you take it preferably on a melee character or on a ranged one ?
Would you take it on your Ranger/Paladin ?
Which spells seems really good for that point of view ?
Would you take it without a high attribute, getting only non-attribute-dependent spells ?

[Giant2005]

Warlock is probably the best purely for Hex.
You only get one level 1 spell per day but it is not only powerful but long lasting and when the Hexed target dies, you can switch it to another enemy without recasting it. It is the best bang for your buck.

[hymer]

I probably wouldn't be taking any of the attack cantrips, with the possible exception of the DM ruling that they scale with your level. They are likely to depend on your having a good stat, and if you do, multiclassing to get these things and more is an option.
Since you're probably not a caster, Guidance might be a good cantrip. You won't be using Concentration for something else, and +1d4 on any skill check you can precede with an action seems worthy of consideration. Prestidigitation, Mage Hand and Mending are other interesting options with strong fluff and possible real mechanical benefit.
For a first level spell, something like Longstrider could be interesting if you're trying to get a fast character. Expeditious retreat is another possibility for non-rogues.

Generally, I'm attracted to this feat mostly for the strong fluff. Mechanically, it seems rather lacklustre to me, but I certainly wouldn't rule out taking it.

Edit: Come to think of it, is there even such a thing as caster level in 5th edition? Maybe there's no reason cantrips wouldn't scale with your level.

[TomPliss]

I must admit I didn't include Hex because of the concentration checks, but a melee character is likely to have a nice constitution, and maybe even proficiency in those con saves (barbarian ? fighter ?).

And about this feat and fluff, I am mostly thinking about using one cantrip for fluff and one as "default combat cantrip". Guidance can easily be nice when you have time to cast it, but melee characters may be the ones who have fewer opportunities to "waste" a turn.

[akaddk]

Guidance. Guidance, Guidance, Guidance and more Guidance.

Seriously, it's an effective +2.5 to every ability check you'll ever make in the game for the rest of the character's life.

Spare the Dying is also nice. While the Medicine check to stabilise is only DC 10, few people ever have points in it and failing the DC is a really ****ty way to waste a round, even if the PC has rounds to spare on their Death Save.

Thaumaturgy is flavour central.

Minor Illusion can be very powerful if used imaginatively.

[hymer]

Seriously, [Guidance] an effective +2.5 to every ability check you'll ever make in the game for the rest of the character's life.

Well, out of combat.


Spare the Dying is also nice. While the Medicine check to stabilise is only DC 10, few people ever have points in it and failing the DC is a really ****ty way to waste a round, even if the PC has rounds to spare on their Death Save.

A healer's kit does the exact same thing as Spare the Dying for 10 uses. 5gp is the price for such a kit. Adventurers should keep some around. Healer's kit also has no problems stabilizing undead and constructs, btw. I wonder if that will ever be relevant.

[Aricandor]

I'm quite fond of picking up Mage Armour with it, given its fair duration and its disregard for your actual level. The cantrips are a harder sell for the most part, but I always like having Mage Hand and Prestidigitation around for the fun-factor.

[Ramshack]

Shield is always nice for that +5 ac when you need it.

Chromatic Orb is 3d8 to whatever damage type you want.

Feather fall, always nice to have on tap

Hunter's Mark

Disguise Self

Charm Person

Just a few of my favorites.

[Caelic]

I think Faerie Fire's gotten a SUBSTANTIAL upgrade. Advantage on all attacks against the target for a minute is pretty darned nice for a first level spell. Keeping the target from turning invisible is just gravy.

[TomPliss]

Hunter's Mark this one is only available to Rangers, and you can't get ranger's spells (nor Paladin's) with the feature ;)

[Nevereatcars]

this one is only available to Rangers, and you can't get ranger's spells (nor Paladin's) with the feature ;)

Paladins with Oath of Vengeance do get Hunter's Mark at 3rd level, along with Bane.

[akaddk]

Well, out of combat.
In combat as well. You can't make an absolute statement when it's only based on personal preference. Is it desirable to use an action to cast Guidance for an ability check in combat? No. Can it be done? Absolutely.

[Totema]

Friends is a nice spell.

You use it to make friends.

I think that's nice.

[akaddk]

Friends is a nice spell.

You use it to make friends.

I think that's nice.

Friends is an amazing cantrip... for the first minute at least :D

[BW022]

A reminder... (a) the spell is cast at its lowest level, and (b) it is using that classes ability modifier.

As such, it isn't going to scale well. The spell will get extremely useless within a few levels as your regular abilities outshine the spell by a wide margin. +1 to four additional abilities scores (or another feat) will be useful for a lot of levels to come.

As such... I would suggest any spell be (a) long lasting, (b) have inherent use at higher levels, (c) probably be non-combat you are likely to cast, and/or (d) have some type of longer term bonus in the game. You can add (e), neither you nor some other party member might have it.

My suggestions would be.

Alarm, comprehend languages, detect magic, disguise self, find familiar, feather fall, good berry, identify, illusionary script, mage armour, and speak with animals.

Of these... find familiar is likely the top. Having such a creature for scouting, guard duty, delivering messages, spying, etc. is good at almost any level. Many have good sensory abilities and can alert you of danger. With a hawk flying overhead, you can avoid a group of 10th level giants as a group of 1st-level goblins. Ritual casting might be a better choice, but, unless you are a wizard or arcane trickster rogue... its likely better than any 1st-level spell by far.

Speak with animals or feather fall would be in my second choice. You can talk with a group of 10th-level mastodons as easily as 1st-level wolves and even at high levels, Rats and squirrels can still tell you if someone went by. It can be good for a fighter-type is you have handle animal or deal with dogs or horses a lot. Feather fall is a 600' fall for up to six PCs. Even at high levels, that isn't too likely.

Detect magic, comprehend languages, and identify are likely in my third set of choices. They are things that you can typically do later during off time and have long-term effects in terms of game play. Gather all the treasure up and at the end of the day cast detect magic. Comprehend languages is useful in order to understand what someone is saying or read strange languages/writing when you have time. Identify is obviously useful at the end of the adventure in identifying magical items without having to run to a large city.

Alarm... is an interesting choice when traveling or resting -- even in inns. It makes it much harder to be surprised while resting.

Others tend to be somewhat situational based on your class and party mix. Disguise self can be extremely scalable in that you can simply disguise yourself as some other class, such that folks waste time on you. Make yourself look like a squishy wizard or bard and folks could easily waste time rushing up to you, wasting silence spells on you, etc.

[BranMan]

Friends is a nice spell.

You use it to make friends.

I think that's nice.

Right up until the spell expires and they become hostile to you, which seems a bit harsh for a cantrip.

This spell is frankly pretty awful for diplomacy, I can't seem to find a good use of it beyond bluffing past guards or messing with shopkeepers and then ditching the city.

[MeeposFire]

Right up until the spell expires and they become hostile to you, which seems a bit harsh for a cantrip.

This spell is frankly pretty awful for diplomacy, I can't seem to find a good use of it beyond bluffing past guards or messing with shopkeepers and then ditching the city.

Yes it is odd that it has the problem normally associated with charm spells rather than the friends spell. Previously though it did work differently doing things such as adding to your cha so you were not influencing them directly like this spell does I believe.

[akaddk]

Since it's an effective +5 to any Charisma check, I'd say Friends is awesome. You only use it when you know you're going to be gone before the minute is up. And remember, Intimidate is also a Charisma check :)

[Vhaluus]

Since it's an effective +5 to any Charisma check, I'd say Friends is awesome. You only use it when you know you're going to be gone before the minute is up. And remember, Intimidate is also a Charisma check :)

Combine friend with disguise self.

Disguise yourself as an enemy, go talk to an ally of that enemy and use friend to make sure you pass your charisma checks and don't get found out finding out the info you need.

Then when the spell expires they think it is their friend who beguiled them and you tear their alliance apart possibly.

[akaddk]

Combine friend with disguise self.

Disguise yourself as an enemy, go talk to an ally of that enemy and use friend to make sure you pass your charisma checks and don't get found out finding out the info you need.

Then when the spell expires they think it is their friend who beguiled them and you tear their alliance apart possibly.

You're brilliant. Can I marry you?

I'm so going to use that with an Arcane Trickster character :D

[Vhaluus]

You're brilliant. Can I marry you?

I'm so going to use that with an Arcane Trickster character :D

I plan to use it with a warlock who takes advantage of unlimited uses of disguise self and alter self to always be someone other than who he is.

[TheOOB]

For the guidance crowd, while it is a good spell, remember that it takes concentration to maintain, and only lasts a minute, and has both verbal and somatic components. That means it's not feasible to keep up all the time, not the least of which being because you'd have to spend 6 seconds every 60 to do it. It's obviously not good for stealth, not very good in public areas or social encounters(people don't look fondly on someone obviously casting spells all the time), and would be really inconvenient to keep up all the time. Totally if your in a dangerous area or you know you're going to make a check, but you can hardly use it on every roll.

[akaddk]

I plan to use it with a warlock who takes advantage of unlimited uses of disguise self and alter self to always be someone other than who he is.

Goddamn, ever since you posted this I've been thinking about it and finally decided to make a character based on the concept. Turns out that it actually is well suited to a very old character I made that was once a half-elven druid. This iteration of druid and half elves doesn't quite work for him but after putting it altogether, he works perfectly with this concept as a half-elven warlock. Initially I was thinking of making a variant human so that I could get the Actor feat right away as it has perfect synergy for this concept, but the pull of having it suit an old character concept was too much. I figured I'd post him up since it's all your fault I created him :smallsmile:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ywxAhGyxKrQldXSy0tSnFsZlk/edit?usp=sharing

[Vhaluus]

Goddamn, ever since you posted this I've been thinking about it and finally decided to make a character based on the concept. Turns out that it actually is well suited to a very old character I made that was once a half-elven druid. This iteration of druid and half elves doesn't quite work for him but after putting it altogether, he works perfectly with this concept as a half-elven warlock. Initially I was thinking of making a variant human so that I could get the Actor feat right away as it has perfect synergy for this concept, but the pull of having it suit an old character concept was too much. I figured I'd post him up since it's all your fault I created him :smallsmile:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ywxAhGyxKrQldXSy0tSnFsZlk/edit?usp=sharing

Nice, I like it. I haven't built my actual character using the concept yet, but I did include it in a powerbuild that was aimed at seeing how far I could push charisma if you're interested

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369234-character-build-charisma-the-super-stat

Also can I ask where you got the interactive pdf?

[akaddk]

Nice, I like it. I haven't built my actual character using the concept yet, but I did include it in a powerbuild that was aimed at seeing how far I could push charisma if you're interested

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369234-character-build-charisma-the-super-stat

Also can I ask where you got the interactive pdf?

It's the default one from Wizards. I've altered a few of the fields and reordered them so that tabbing isn't such an issue (although I got overwhelmed once I reached the spell section) and fixed the picture fields so that they would centre pictures. Other than that, it's stock from the download at Wizards.

EDIT: Oh, and changed the font to something nicer. Although I'm not sure if that would translate if you downloaded it since Google messes with things when you upload stuff.

[Basement Cat]

I prefer to use Magic Initiate to get Druid spells.

"What?!?" you say. Well, the thing is I like spells that have varied uses.

I get Produce Flame because it's both a source of light (always useful) and can be used as a distance weapon. Moreover while the description states that the 1st level spell is always cast as at 1st level the Cantrips level up with your character level resulting in an increasingly effective and ammo-free (if short ranged--only 30') distance weapon.

For my second Cantrip I get Druidcraft. The ability to foretell weather can be life and death useful. You can use it to produce distracting noises and smells, and it can be used to light or snuff torches, campfires, etc.

But for my 1st level spell I charge straight for Goodberry. With Goodberry my character can hide a twig of mistletoe in his hair or beard and never, ever worry about going hungry--no small thing when P.C.'s often find themselves stripped of weapons, armor and equipment. Furthermore Goodberry produces up to 8 berries per casting and each berry provides 1 h.p. of healing.

My present character is a scholarly Shadow Monk with a Sage-Researcher background (think Indiana Jones who just happens to be a monk wearing a fedora) so this selection makes him extraordinarily self reliant. One Decanter of Endless Water and he's completely self reliant.

Screw min/maxing--Magic Initiate with Druid spells is a serious life saver! :smallsmile:

[Specter]

The guide in my signature shows many.

[8wGremlin]

Have you though about Ritual caster: Wizard.
You get 2 1st level rituals and can add more as you adventure. You can cast any wizard Ritual up to 1/2 your level.

I use it on my fighter/ranger for
Alarm, find familiar, comprehend launguages, magic mouth, sky write, leominds tiny hut, phantom steed.

All really good and useful spells.

[Zman]

Holy necromancy batman! Doesn't everyone know thread necromancy is frowned upon in civilized society.

[8wGremlin]

Why is it?
Or is this just another get at the necromacers cus they are icky rant?

[deathadder99]

Wow, no one has mentioned what I think are easily the best pickups in the game...

Find Familiar + Booming Blade is excellent on a rogue. Booming Blade doesn't scale with the spellcasting ability, and applies sneak attack.

Special mention to Shillelagh which can be useful for some builds.

[Quoxis]

When looking from the other way, it seems that Druid and Cleric, the two Wisdom classes, have less to offer (if you don't take the feat to take a healing spell). Clerec has many spells blocked by the Domain mecanism, and the druid has a really limited spell list (even if Thorn Whip may be one of the best cantrip, with both damage and control, in a way a melee character may want).


Faerie fire, shield of faith and bless would disagree, you uncultured swine :P

[Azgeroth]

okay to answer the original thread post,

if you are playying a heavy armoured melee character, here are some options..

wizard:
Cantrip - Prestigitation, Mage Hand, Minor illusion.
Level 1 - Shield, Feather fall.

this option will give you quite a bit of utility, and is best suited if you already have a well balanced party (wizard + cleric / sorc +druid etc)

if you dont have a wizard, then the below is probably a good idea..

Wizard:
Cantrip - Prestigitation, Mending, move earth
Level 1 - Summon familiar, identify/shield

cant express how useful familiars are, if you dont have one in your party, get one.. move earth is a cantrip that lets you turn a 10 x 5 area into difficult terrain ( excavate 5 ft cube, deposit in adjacent 5ft square, you now have a 5ft cube pit, with a 5ft cube mound next to it(so as a fighter, you could in one turn, turn a 20 x 5 ft stretch into a 10 x 5 x 5 pit, and 2 5 x 5 x 5 mounts )create bonfire is also a pretty good option)

other fun options.

Druid:
cantrip - Druidcraft, Sheleliagh, thunderclap
level 1 - faerie fire, healing word

ok so this not optimal at higher levels, thunderclap and faerie fire both require a save, which most enemies will pass even at lowwer levels, healing word also not great, but if someone just hit 0hps, you save there life.

[Quoxis]

For the guidance crowd, while it is a good spell, remember that it takes concentration to maintain, and only lasts a minute, and has both verbal and somatic components. That means it's not feasible to keep up all the time, not the least of which being because you'd have to spend 6 seconds every 60 to do it. It's obviously not good for stealth, not very good in public areas or social encounters(people don't look fondly on someone obviously casting spells all the time), and would be really inconvenient to keep up all the time. Totally if your in a dangerous area or you know you're going to make a check, but you can hardly use it on every roll.

Cast before entering a shop
Talk the vendor into lowering prices
Be gone without having a new enemy (unlike with the "friends" cantrip) or them even knowing you cast magic on them (which you technically didn't)

During a dungeon crawl, cast it on your rogue to make sure he'll really see the trapped door being trapped (resulting in less party members dying).

Cast it on yourself to lower the chance you'll botch the jump over the pitfall your rogue just found even though you dumped Str.

I'm a cleric in my current campaign and there's a situation where i can use it every few minutes. Ok, if you've got a hammer everything looks like a nail, but still it remains one of my most used cantrips.