Hello need help to improve beguiler

[belkasro]

Hello im new here and got a question for you guys

Playing a Beguiler in a 3.5 D&D campaign. reason i picked the class is they had no wizard or rouge in the party. picked the combat expertise and improved feint. what be the best way to make this a really good class. adding wands was a good start to get some damage spells and trying to get really creative with the spells i have but feels like all i can do is support.

Level 2 Beguiler human

stats
14 STR
16 DEX
12 Con
18 INT
15 WIS
15 CHA
http://dndtools.eu/classes/beguiler/

[Chronos]

I'm not sure why you have the feats you do-- Most of your actions in combat are going to be spellcasting, which isn't improved by either of those feats. At low level, your most valuable spells are likely to be Color Spray and Charm Person. Color Spray can instantly win an encounter if you're lucky, and will probably take out at least half of the enemies. Charm Person can swing an encounter by persuading an enemy Big Dumb Fighter type to switch sides, or at least to sit out the battle. It can also be quite useful if you're taking prisoners and questioning them. If your front-liners are good at keeping you out of trouble, then Sleep is similarly valuable to Color Spray: It takes a full round to cast, but it has longer range, and is a bit more targetable. And Silent Image can be extremely useful, if you're creative: Just ask yourself what you would like your enemies to think is happening on the battlefield.

[Gwendol]

The beguiler is a very good class: skillful and versatile and with decent spells. Not sure what you want to improve, other than revise your selection of feats.

[Telonius]

Because Beguiler is a primary spellcaster, anything that distracts from the spellcasting is making it less powerful.

It is possible to use Beguiler as chassis for something like an Arcane Trickster. One of the players in my current campaign is doing just that. Rogue2/BeguilerX, with Craven, Darkstalker, and TWF. It plays more like an arcane-enabled Rogue rather than a primary caster, but she sometimes has the ability to solve encounters with well-placed spells. The party has particularly benefited from her use of the Silence spell and the various Invisibility spells. She is more of a support character, though; it's hard to focus more on melee and do the arcane heavy-lifting too.

[nedz]

Beguiler is an excellent class, but it does have a couple of class features which are a trap — which you appear to have fallen into — yes, the feint stuff is probably worthless unless you are going to multi-class with Rogue; and even then really.

A Beguiler is a skill monkey/caster who should avoid melee — this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322) handbook should help.

[Chronos]

Quoth Telonius:

It is possible to use Beguiler as chassis for something like an Arcane Trickster.
You could, but you wouldn't want to. Beguiler is already better at doing the roguish stuff than arcane trickster is. You really don't want to PrC out as a beguiler, except for maybe a one-level dip in something (Mindbender is nice) to delay your Advanced Learnings.

[Fax Celestis]

You could, but you wouldn't want to. Beguiler is already better at doing the roguish stuff than arcane trickster is. You really don't want to PrC out as a beguiler, except for maybe a one-level dip in something (Mindbender is nice) to delay your Advanced Learnings.

I dunno, three levels of swashbuckler might make for an interesting gish.

[Seclora]

I dunno, three levels of swashbuckler might make for an interesting gish.
I find that a few levels of Warblade compliments my Beguiler rather well, I've always wanted to try Swashbuckler/Beguiler, the fluff alone makes them seem like a good fit.

[Telonius]

Oh yeah, I don't mean actually taking levels in Arcane Trickster - just that Beguiler would let you build something that's Arcane Trickster-ish in style. (Craven being the thing that makes sneak attack more useful, rather than actual increases in sneak dice).

It is a drop in power from taking all 20 spellcaster levels, but so is everything else that doesn't progress spellcasting. If the OP's planning on being mainly melee, it's one way of making it work.

[Chronos]

Oh, I get you now. Though I don't think they have any spells that can be used with Sneak Attack-- Are you planning on just covering that via UMD and wands? Personally, I wouldn't bother going for Sneak Attack at all with one: There are very few creatures vulnerable to Sneak Attack that aren't also vulnerable to your spells.

[nedz]

You could, but you wouldn't want to. Beguiler is already better at doing the roguish stuff than arcane trickster is. You really don't want to PrC out as a beguiler, except for maybe a one-level dip in something (Mindbender is nice) to delay your Advanced Learnings.
1 level of a PrC before 8th, and another 2 before 14th: nets you Shadow Conjuration and Greater Shadow Conjuration at the earliest possible levels. Now there are other choices of spells — but those both add flexibility and allow you to be useful in situations which may stump you otherwise.


Oh yeah, I don't mean actually taking levels in Arcane Trickster - just that Beguiler would let you build something that's Arcane Trickster-ish in style. (Craven being the thing that makes sneak attack more useful, rather than actual increases in sneak dice).

It is a drop in power from taking all 20 spellcaster levels, but so is everything else that doesn't progress spellcasting. If the OP's planning on being mainly melee, it's one way of making it work.

Rogue 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer 10 is a good start — though it would be better if you had more divinations.

[Fax Celestis]

Rogue 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer 10 is a good start — though it would be better if you had more divinations.

Spellthief + Master Spellthief is a better first level than Rogue because of how it repairs your Caster Level.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm going to second Surprise Casting being a trap. If you want an easy way to enable Cloaked Casting at will then making Distract Assailant (SpC) your first Advanced Learning choice is leagues better.

As for feats, every Beguiler should have Versatile Spellcaster (RotD). Why? First let's examine the key part of the feat:


You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.

Now, what spells does a Beguiler know?


When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler’s spell list. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time. Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells known list.

The upshot is, as a Beguiler 2 with Versatile Spellcaster, you can spend two 1st level spell slots to cast any of the 2nd level spells on your list. Once you hit fourth level and gain actual 2nd level spell slots, you can spend two of those to cast one of the Beguiler's 3rd level spells, and so on. Not a trick you should use will-nilly (you'll run out of slots fast), but essentially pretending to be two class levels higher in a pinch is quite a useful ability to have.

NOTE: Due to the "When you gain access to a new level of spells" clause, your DM might make you take Heighten Spell to "prove" that you can cast 2nd level spells already (by using Versatile Spellcaster to Heighten a 1st level spell to 2nd level) before letting you dip into that line of your list. Still worth it, especially considering that Heighten Spell is itself a great feat for you to have down the line (spontaneous casters love being able to keep the DCs of their lower level spells up).

Second feat depends on what kinds of things you expect to be doing in play. If you plan on sneaking a lot, for example, Darkstalker (LoM) is more or less essential.

[nedz]

Spellthief + Master Spellthief is a better first level than Rogue because of how it repairs your Caster Level.

Agreed, though Changeling Rogue is nice too — especially since this gives you one free Knowledge skill: which opens up Arcane Disciple quite early, well at level 1.

The trouble with Spellthief is that you are limited to holding spell levels equal to your Spellthief level — which is annoyingly 1.



My favourite Beguiler build looks like this though :smallsmile:
Human Beguiler 5 / Divine Oracle 1 / Beguiler +2 / Divine Oracle +2 / Beguiler ++

Feats: Educated [1] Arcane Disciple [1] Skill Focus [Know(Religion)][3] Arcane Disciple [6]
Arcane Disciple x X, Insightful Reflexes (Divine Oracle 2 grants Evasion), Penumbra Bloodline and Dimensional Jaunt (Assuming you have picked up the Travel domain already) are good additional feats

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Absolutely get rid of those feats you already have, they're worse than useless for what you'll actually be doing. The best way to do this is to use the retraining rules in PH2, Chapter 8. Alternatively, the standard rate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) to hire an NPC Psion to use a Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) on you to repick your feats and skill points at 1st level would be just 280 gp, plus an extra 125 gp for every level you currently have (530 gp total at your current level), plus you'll need to pay 25 xp per level you currently have (50 xp at your current level).

Consider going Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14 for your future levels, which allows you to select spells of one level higher for Advanced Learning after that Mindbender level, plus you get Telepathy and can take the feat Mindsight from Lords of Madness.

Definitely get Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon, as Sith_Happens pointed out. This will have the added benefit of allowing you to pick spells of one level higher yet for Advanced Learning. In this case I would strongly recommend choosing Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, and Superior Invisibility, assuming you get the Mindbender dip. The ones that aren't in the PHB are in SC.

For other feats, consider Unsettling Enchantment and/or Dazzling Illusion in CM, each of which requires Spell Focus for the appropriate school, which isn't a bad feat to take anyway. Other useful feats include Improved Initiative, Darkstalker in Lords of Madness, and Greater Spell Focus.

Edit: Try to get Arcane Thieves' Tools in MIC asap, they're only 1400 gp, they count as masterwork thieves' tools, and you can spend an arcane spell slot of 1st level or higher as a swift action to gain an extra +5 Competence bonus to the next Open Lock or Disable Device check you use them to make before the end of the next round.

[belkasro]

thanks guys really helped out. got some reading to do then. This is one helpful forum. Going to recommend this site to all my cohorts of gaming.

[Sith_Happens]

Ray of Stupidity is definitely pure awesomeness, though your DM might get a bit sore if you use it as "one-shot target animal.":smallwink:

[Gwendol]

I have a beguiler in a game I DM who has used power word Pain successfully (1st level spell).

[nedz]

I have a beguiler in a game I DM who has used power word Pain successfully (1st level spell).

Power Word Pain is a poorly designed spell, IMHO, because it has inverse scaling. It's OP at level 1, good when Beguilers can get it (level 3) but fades into uselessness quite quickly.

I prefer Distract Assailant which allows you to use up your level 1 spell slots to, hopefully, trigger your cloaked casting class features throughout your career.

[Thurbane]

Beguilers often get severely underrated by a lot of people. They're like the best bits of Rogues and Sorcerers all bundled into one package (slight exaggeration, but bear with me).

The main argument against them is that they are "useless" against enemies like mindless undead and automatons.

Here's a few points that slip a lot of people's minds:

Mindless creatures are automatically affected by Illusions/Figments (unless they have a creature specific immunity).
They also have area control/debuff spells like Slow and Solid Fog that function just fine on these opponents as well (Slow won't work on a Golem, but Solid Fog sure does).
Beguilers have quite a few buffs to throw on their allies (Blur, Displacement, Haste etc.) in (or before) any given combat.
And not least of all, they get UMD as a class skill for crying out loud! Hello! Wands, Staffs and Runestaffs anyone?


...sorry, bit of a personal peeve of mine. [/rant]

[Arc_knight25]

May I recommend all 3 levels of Human paragon after you begin Beguiler, taking skills that will help you be a rogue, and make sure you take Search as your adaptive learning skill. Take a few levels in Wizard and then go into Ultimate Magus.

Boost that Int as high as you can get it, and enjoy the spells. Ultimate support right there. Along with filling the Rogue role as well.

So Beguiler 2/Human Paragon 3/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 10/ 2lvls of whatever you like (Wizard/Beguiler/Mindbender are our best bet)

You take a hit to your CL but you get 2 spell pools to work with. And the Wizard spells you can fill in the holes of your Beguiler casting.

If my quick math is right Beguiler CL will be 12-15. Wizards will be 11-14. You have some leeway with the open 2 levels and when both CL are the same as you progress through UM.

[MrSinister]

Consider going Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14 for your future levels.... take the feat Mindsight from Lords of Madness.

This right here is pretty much Mindbender 20, isn't it? Last game I played, I was a halfling one of these and it was way too much fun.