Solutions for non-halfling based Supermount?

[ILM]

I'm thinking about a Supermount build (more as a fun exercise than for any upcoming game) but Halflings stick in my craw. Alas, it doesn't seem that Halfling Outrider is optional in that build.

Any way to qualify as Halfling without being one? (No Polymorph-type spells, and while Changeling + Racial Emulation would do it it's not what I'm looking for) Alternatively, any way to make a Supermount work withouth Halfling Outrider?

[Segev]

For those of us following along at home, could you either provide a link to the "supermount build" you're referencing or give us a crib notes version of why the Halfling Outrider is essential? What does it provide that is a must-have?

I know google exists, but it's easier to link once or explain once than to try to hop thread to thread to keep track of the important details.

What race(s) would you use if Halfling wasn't a prereq for that PrC?

[Urpriest]

The basics are that Halfling Outrider dual-advances Special Mount and Animal Companion, and is possibly the only class that does so.

There's some cheesy Dragon content that can turn basically any caster into a multi-advancer, though. PlzBreakMyCampAn has what I think is the record for a build based on that stuff, so googling him may prove useful.

[Snowbluff]

I have a Dragon Mag build, if you're interested.

[ILM]

I should have mentioned it: no Dragon Mag (Dragon Compendium is ok though).

Supermount works like this, basically:

Standard Supermount Build

LG Strongheart Halfling
1. Paladin - Mounted Combat, Track (prereq for Devoted Tracker)
2. Paladin
3. Paladin - Skill Focus: Handle Animal (prereq for Beast Master)
4. Paladin
5. Paladin
6. Beastmaster - Devoted Tracker
7. Beastmaster
8. Wild Plains Outrider
9. Wild Plains Outrider - Mounted Archery (prereq for Halfling Outrider)
10. Wild Plains Outrider
11. Halfling Outrider
12. Halfling Outrider - Natural Bond
13. Halfling Outrider
14. Halfling Outrider
15. Halfling Outrider - Ride By Attack (or some other feat)
16. Halfling Outrider
17. Halfling Outrider
18. Halfling Outrider - Spirited Charge (or some other feat)
19. Halfling Outrider
20. Halfling Outrider

At 20th level, thanks to Devoted Tracker, your Supermount's abilities are that of an 18th level Paladin Mount and an 18th level Druid Animal Companion combined.
Special Mount: 18th level Paladin = Paladin 5 + Wild Plains 3 + Half-Out 10
Animal Companion: 18th level Druid = Beast Master 5 + Natural Bond 3 + Half-Out 10

Other feats to consider:
Dragon Steed
Exalted Companion (Blink Dog) + Mage Slayer + Pierce Magical Concealment + Ring of Blinking


As for substitute races, I dunno. Probably some kind of vanilla-looking medium humanoid? I just really hate Halflings. :)

[Vhaidara]

Personally, without the Outrider double advancement, and since I feel if halfling stings, most small races will. So I recommend the following
Cleric 3/Fighter 2/Prestige Paladin 5/Ashworm Dragoon 10.

AD gives you a really fun mount that can eventually move through solid stone. This lets you bring it in to dungeons.

[Urpriest]

As for substitute races, I dunno. Probably some kind of vanilla-looking medium humanoid? I just really hate Halflings. :)

Medium humanoid is kind of an enormous handicap, considering how many dungeons are made for medium creatures and won't accommodate Large mounts. Any reason you prefer Medium?

[Piggy Knowles]

If Dragon Compendium is OK, Shaper of Form can let you qualify as a halfling.

[Fuzzy McCoy]

Well if you can convince your DM that Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) is sufficient enough for Devoted Tracker, then all you really need is Ranger 1/paladin 19. Otherwise, most supermount stuff is going to rely on being a halfling or Dragon Mag content.

@Urpriest: most dungeons for medium creatures won't easily accept large mounts. They may have to squeeze, but they can fit.

[Urpriest]

@Urpriest: most dungeons for medium creatures won't easily accept large mounts. They may have to squeeze, but they can fit.

I was being imprecise, but yes, very few Medium dungeons will be straight-up inaccessible to Large creatures. However, fighting while squeezing is not fun, so you have to be careful to avoid fighting in 5ft corridors or the like.

[Zaq]

I was being imprecise, but yes, very few Medium dungeons will be straight-up inaccessible to Large creatures. However, fighting while squeezing is not fun, so you have to be careful to avoid fighting in 5ft corridors or the like.

Also, I shudder at the thought of adjudicating being mounted on a squeezing creature.

[ILM]

Oh, Shaper of Form is just stupidly enough written that it might work, thanks! :)


It actually occurred to me that a Druid 11/Paladin (variant) 6/Beastmaster 1/Dragon Rider (DLCS) 2 might not get the +20 HD total to his mount (along with all the goodies), but he still gets +16 HD, +18 natural armor, +8 Str, +6 dex, all the specials on the druid side... And 6th-level druid spells (Paladin 6 is in case I can wing an alternate variant to get axiomatic templated mounts, otherwise I can just get something else).

I'm still combing through the books but I'm confident I can find a few decent buffs. Heck, just replacing 1 level of Dragon Rider or Paladin with Conteplative and taking Domain Spontaneity (thanks to the Paladin's Turn Undead) would allow me to buff the dragon with Righteous Might, including size increase ;). Then do the old DMM Persist cheese... Bite of the Werebear + Ability Enhancer? Chasing Perfection? Primal Speed? Superior Resistance? And that's not even counting the ECL 20 dragon's spellcasting.


edit: Screw dungeons, I got a DRAGON! We don't crawl through dungeons, we nuke them from orbit and then sift through the remains for treasure. :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

I should have mentioned it: no Dragon Mag (Dragon Compendium is ok though).


Alright, so no Holy Mount/TheurgicMount/Ranger Knight.

Have you considered Arcane Hierophant? Make an animal companion, add familiar abilities, then give it Vow of Poverty. Combined with Share Spells/Buffs, and it should be unstoppable.

[ILM]

Have you considered Arcane Hierophant? Make an animal companion, add familiar abilities, then give it Vow of Poverty. Combined with Share Spells/Buffs, and it should be unstoppable.
I have, but familiars don't advance HD so it's a little less interesting to me.


New related question. With all the information provided in Draconomicon about dragon HD and LA (beyond chromatic dragons, and including some templates), and with the caveat that the dragon must be at least Large and it'd be even better if it were Huge at ECL 20, which dragon would you pick for a cohort/mount/best friend? Bonus points if it's evil. (edit: probably belongs in another thread)

[Snowbluff]

It doesn't progress HD, but the benefits from a robust spell list certainly outweigh a few d8s.

As for a dragon, Gold is one of the best Draconic Special Mounts, IIRC. Not sure about evil ones, though.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I prefer the Steel Dragon (DoF) as a mount. It's big enough to ride, has alternate form, gets more casting than most other dragons, is practically immune to spells of 4th level or lower that are SR:yes and you can buff it's poison cone breath weapon with Venomfire. It's also one of the lower HD dragons so you can get an older one sooner.

Since it's not on the standard list of allowed dragon companions getting one can be tricky unless you're the right class though.

[Flickerdart]

Since it's not on the standard list of allowed dragon companions getting one can be tricky unless you're the right class though.
There's a lovely rule for exotic paladin mounts in the back of the DMG - you can have a creature as a paladin mount if its CR is equal to your Paladin level minus 3 (or 4 for flying creatures). Unlike the druid, this doesn't eat into the bonus HD and stuff you get. So go ahead and grab a steel dragon (with your DM's approval, but really that's the case for any mount) - the first Large one is a CR8 Adult, so you can be riding on one as early as level 12.

[ILM]

That sounds real iffy. For example, a medium Young Gold Dragon is CR 9, so easily obtainable at Paladin 13 under that rule - yet the Draconomicon explicitly that you might get a Young Gold Dragon only at Paladin 20 (and it'd cost you 1,000 gp per HD, too). Sounds like a case of DMG Gone Wild.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's a lovely rule for exotic paladin mounts in the back of the DMG - you can have a creature as a paladin mount if its CR is equal to your Paladin level minus 3 (or 4 for flying creatures). Unlike the druid, this doesn't eat into the bonus HD and stuff you get. So go ahead and grab a steel dragon (with your DM's approval, but really that's the case for any mount) - the first Large one is a CR8 Adult, so you can be riding on one as early as level 12.

The problem with this is that the rules for dragons as paladin mounts from the Draconomicon are a lot more restrictive, and most DMs will give them precedence.

The suggestions for exotic mounts in the DMG also include that stronger mounts should get a reduced special mount progression, so the dragon would probably be at level-11, if your DM allows one at all.
That's still a 19HD dragon as a mount on a 12HD paladin though so if your DM allows this, go for it. Any DM who has a clue about the reliability of the CR system probably won't though.

There is also the suggestion that creatures with Int 5 or more should be cohorts instead of mounts. And Leadership goes by ECL instead of CR making dragon mounts older than young pretty much impossible with that method.

Sure, if your DM agrees you can have pretty much anything as a mount. A reasonable strong RAW argument is a lot better though than a vague passage in the DMG and a "try to convince your DM".

Edit: As i already mentioned in more detail in the OPs other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369056-Huge-dragon-pre-epic), getting a way to acquire your dragon mount that depends solely on HD is probably the easiest method.
The only methods to do so i know of are Zhentarim Skymage and Cleric with rebuke dragons or one of the Fire/Water/Air/Earth domains.
Neither method will produce a "real" supermount (in the sense that the mount has HD in the high epic range), but they allow you to get a mount with HD equal to or slightly exceeding yours, are rock-solid RAW wise and both get full casting, which is an advantage over a Halfling Outrider built.

They're also more likely to be allowed than a 40-90HD dragon at most tables, which is a definite bonus if you actually want to play one and aren't just building for the fun of it.

[Flickerdart]

Oh, another idea - a Knight of the Iron Glacier is explicitly allowed to replace a base paladin mount with a War Megaloceros and then stack mount benefits on top of it. So a dip into that will help you.

[dextercorvia]

To the original question, a Changeling with the Racial Emulation feat can qualify for Halfling Outrider. If you have some form of shape changing mount, you can even switch back and forth between small rider/medium mount for dungeons, and medium rider/large mount for open areas.

[ILM]

Have you considered Arcane Hierophant? Make an animal companion, add familiar abilities, then give it Vow of Poverty. Combined with Share Spells/Buffs, and it should be unstoppable.
I take it all back. I can slap on Arcane Hierophant without losing anything thanks to Sword of the Arcane Order and Precocious Apprentice (or for slightly less chesse, SotAO and more Pally levels, though I'll lose at least a level of Druid casting). Paladin (variant) 6/Druid 3/Beastmaster 1/Arcane Hierophant 8/Dragon Rider 2. Bit strapped for feats but it'll work!

Good, now my Wyvern won't be quite as stupid :smalltongue:.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Afaik there aren't any paladin variants with a neutral alignment (in official sources at least, there are in DragonMag), so a Paladin/Druid multiclass won't work because of alignment conflicts.
Another nitpick is that FR Druids need to take one of several specified nature deities, with Mystra not being one of them. SotAO requires Mystra as a patron, although this restriction is often ignored (and makes no sense in a non-FR game that allows FR stuff).

[ILM]

Afaik there aren't any paladin variants with a neutral alignment (in official sources at least, there are in DragonMag),
... Damn.

Tentative fix: CG Paladin + variant Bard then. Casting's way worse though... :(

edit: oh, and blow a level on Wildrunner 1.

[Urpriest]

What is DLCS Dragon Rider doing in that build? As far as I know, there's no way to combine the Dragon Cohort from the feat with any of your other mount-gaining abilities.

[ILM]

DMG page 200 allows combining the two, but it's frustratingly vague... (add a minimum of 2 LA to the cohort's ECL)

Dragon Rider just adds some more HD :).

[Urpriest]

DMG page 200 allows combining the two, but it's frustratingly vague... (add a minimum of 2 LA to the cohort's ECL)

Dragon Rider just adds some more HD :).

The reason I always advise against using that particular rule from the DMG is that the HD granted by Special Mount are still actual HD, and actually contribute to ECL. Absent language to the contrary, your mount gains HD from being a Special Mount, and immediately has too high an ECL to qualify as a cohort.

That said, if your DM is houseruling around that it's a reasonable way to go...be aware that RAW, you can't combine it with the discount from Dragon Cohort, since Dragon Rider explicitly applies to the Leadership feat rather than to cohorts in general.

[ILM]

Both valid points, thanks. Plus it occurs to me that since special mount availability and benefits scale down with better mounts (as the DMG indicates in page 205 and much like animal companions) it's probably real iffy to designate a dragon cohort as special mount with less Paladin levels than indicated in Draconomicon page 139.

That said, it poses a problem with the Dragon Rider class. Let's assume no shenanigans: you're a straight-up dragon rider, attracting a dragon with Leadership. It's a Young Gold dragon, explicitly allowed in the table, and it's ECL 17 for you. From being a Dragon Rider, it immediately gains bonus HD, pushing its ECL up. Suddenly it's not available as cohort anymore.

2 ways I see of ruling it:
- either the bonus HD don't count in the creature's ECL, or
- they do and if you're going Dragon Rider 10 you're actually limited to ECL 12 (before the -3 granted by the class) dragons to begin with. If you're a Medium character, that means either Young White dragon or Wyvern. In this case, your dragon cohort from the class ends up actually worse than the one you'd get just from taking the Dragon Cohort feat...

[WeaselGuy]

Dunno if you missed it or not, but Halfling Outrider has an adaptation section, that says that pretty much any race with a racial/regional affinity for mounts can easily be substituted in.

[ILM]

Dunno if you missed it or not, but Halfling Outrider has an adaptation section, that says that pretty much any race with a racial/regional affinity for mounts can easily be substituted in.
Huh? I did look for one and didn't find it, and just looked again with no more success. Got a page reference?

[ILM]

The reason I always advise against using that particular rule from the DMG is that the HD granted by Special Mount are still actual HD, and actually contribute to ECL. Absent language to the contrary, your mount gains HD from being a Special Mount, and immediately has too high an ECL to qualify as a cohort.
Now that I think about it, I disagree. The situation is the same as with the Dragon Rider problem I detail above. From the wording of the text, we can infer that first you get a cohort, and then you make it your special mount. You would get your cohort without bonus HD at whatever ECL is available to you (-2). Making it your special mount would then give it bonus HD. In the order things happen, there isn't much way for the bonus HD to retroactively invalidate your choice of cohort; logically, then, bonus HD must not affect ECL for the purposes of picking your cohort.

In terms of game-breakiness, consider the following Paladin 20 with the Dragon Cohort feat. He has two options:
1) As a Paladin 20, gain a young Gold dragon as special mount as detailed on page 139 of Draconomicon (which would get 2 bonus HD) - and then gain another young Gold Dragon as cohort from the feat.
2) Due to the -2 LA penalty, you'd have to settle for a very young Gold Dragon cohort (advanced 2 HD) from the feat, then use it as your Paladin special mount gaining the full array of bonuses - or +8 HD and assorted bonuses. But then of course you wouldn't have a second draconic friend.

So, which is the more powerful? 2 young Gold Dragons or one very young Gold dragon advanced 10 HD (except for size increases)? I'd honestly say the two options are relatively balanced.

[WeaselGuy]

Huh? I did look for one and didn't find it, and just looked again with no more success. Got a page reference?

Well crap, I was mistaken... I was remembering the bit from Wild Plains Outrider...

[ILM]

Bleh. You know what, forget about all this. I don't know who wrote the rules about animal companions, mounts, cohorts et al but he was clearly challenged. None of them make sense. In addition to everything else, I just realized that even if you could get the bonus HDs to stack, they're explicitly still animal and magical beast HDs regardless of what type your mount/AC actually is. Hell, even the Dragon Steed feat says:

Bonus HD: Treat the same as bonus HD for a regular paladin's mount, except that these are extra twelve-sided (d12) Hit Die.
Like, the guy actually went to see the paladin text, and thought "Well it's a dragon so let's make them d12s, but that part where it says the BAB is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the mount’s HD, and that the mount has good Fortitude and Reflex saves is just fine."

I give up. Dragon Rider 10 will do; better that than navigating rules written by goldfish.

[Urpriest]

Now that I think about it, I disagree. The situation is the same as with the Dragon Rider problem I detail above. From the wording of the text, we can infer that first you get a cohort, and then you make it your special mount. You would get your cohort without bonus HD at whatever ECL is available to you (-2). Making it your special mount would then give it bonus HD. In the order things happen, there isn't much way for the bonus HD to retroactively invalidate your choice of cohort; logically, then, bonus HD must not affect ECL for the purposes of picking your cohort.

In terms of game-breakiness, consider the following Paladin 20 with the Dragon Cohort feat. He has two options:
1) As a Paladin 20, gain a young Gold dragon as special mount as detailed on page 139 of Draconomicon (which would get 2 bonus HD) - and then gain another young Gold Dragon as cohort from the feat.
2) Due to the -2 LA penalty, you'd have to settle for a very young Gold Dragon cohort (advanced 2 HD) from the feat, then use it as your Paladin special mount gaining the full array of bonuses - or +8 HD and assorted bonuses. But then of course you wouldn't have a second draconic friend.

So, which is the more powerful? 2 young Gold Dragons or one very young Gold dragon advanced 10 HD (except for size increases)? I'd honestly say the two options are relatively balanced.

Yeah...it really ought to have had more thought put into it than just "it comes afterwards, therefore there's no problem"...rules written by goldfish, as you later comment. But that said, it's definitely how they seem to have assumed it worked, at any rate, and there's a consistent argument to be made for it.