Help me choose a build (Warning: very picky)

[Nettlekid]

For about a year now I've been eagerly awaiting a friend's Epic campaign that's kept being put off, and I believe it's finally right around the corner. We've had players join and drop, and my interests have fluctuated, and so I've yet to solidly choose a character type that I want to play. I'd like the Playground's help with narrowing down my options.

The campaign is Epic, but the DM is pretty new and I don't think he plans to employ all the perils that Epic can contain. It's going to be a primarily dragon-based campaign following the game of Xorvintaal, so he's removed their racial spellcasting. For that matter, the DM severely underestimates the power of spells and I think doesn't intend to deal with them too often. I'm concerned that if I don't play a spellcaster then we'll die too easily, or just be denied access to things that are expected at high levels (like teleportation), but if I do then I'll be too overpowered compared to the DM's noncaster monsters and the other party members (unclear at this point but I think there will just be two others, a ranged character and a tank probably.)

I'd like some kind of build which has a main gimmick but has backup options to use if the gimmick fails or isn't the wisest choice, and which has out-of-combat options for intrigue. It should have some kind of unifying theme, some kind of motive or moral, which the classes reflect. Although I want to be strong, probably stronger than the mundane party members, I don't want them to think I'm that much stronger, so the more subtle my strength is the better. The personality I could see playing is one that's a little bit ruthless and doesn't have world-ending goals or anything, but doesn't like being interfered with and doesn't want to be played by the dragons. I could see that being applied to any build type though. A proud warrior, a cunning thief, a minionmancer caster, an enchanter/illusionist, wouldn't matter, that kind of personality could be played through any, so I'm really just looking for build suggestions rather than "What kind of personality do you want to play? Build a character around that."

One thing that I'm worried about is that it would be pretty easy to find some powerful gimmick, but I don't want it to be so strong that the DM just fiats it away out of annoyance, and I think that would be fair to do for some. Like if I had an Illusionist/Enchanter who boosted save DCs through the roof, or a master thief who had obscene Hide/Move Silently, I could see the DM just saying that people are making saves or their Spot checks just because it would be too troublesome/boring to let me autowin, and I don't want to put the DM in that position.


Dragonfire Adept with a slew of magic items making him nearly impervious to harm, insisting he's a real dragon, for BC and minor damage. Con: Low damage and repetitive.

Monk/Apostle of Peace/Sacred Fist for healing and a lot of roleplaying. Con: Apostle of Peace.

Wizard/Malconvoker as general summoner and taxi. Con: A lot of bookkeeping with regard to summons.

Ur-Priest/Master of Shrouds as undead minionmancer. Con: Still bookkeeping, and repetitive.

StP Erudite for pure brokenness. Con: Way too overpowered.

Ardent/Metamind for infinite actions and PP. Con: Again, too overpowered.

Thri-Kreen Frenzied Berserker for Two-Handed-Two-Weapon-Fighting. Con: LOOKS too overpowered.

Shadowcraft Mage because Illusions are pretty fun. Con: Regular illusions are too easily beaten by True Seeing, and churning out Shadow Miracles is too strong.

Bloodstorm Blade because ranged melee is kind of neat. Con: Steps on melee and ranged toes, no spellcasting.

Paladin/Gray Guard for roleplaying mainly. Con: Too weak in a real fight.

Ruby Knight Vindicator with a level of Sanctified One of Wee Jas to be REALLY hard to kill. Con: Too little out-of-combat interest.

Changeling Chameleon to be anyone. Con: Jack of all trades, master of none. I want to be a master.

Spymaster/Psibond Agent to be secretly stealthy and manipulative. Con: Great out of combat but basically nothing in combat.

Swiftblade (several builds) for some magic but mostly melee, gishy goodness. Con: Tends to let spellcasting overpower melee in interest.

Truenamer because why not, using Rebuild Item to be a Golemmancer. Con: Still bookkeeping.

Nightmare Spinner/Dread Witch to make everything terrified. Con: Has to resort to cheesy CL boosts to make their fear mastery applicable to dragons.

Illusionist/Enchanter builds (many) to subtly influence the world around him. Con: Saves are too troublesome, too
easily made immune to.

Archivist/Runecaster to buff the team with runes of Persisted spells. Con: Runes are basically infinite-use spells, which are too strong.

Unseen Seer for a Scry and Sneak Attacker. Con: Because of Xorvintaal, Scrying will basically never work.

Eternal Blade (several builds) because I love Island in Time. Con: Too martial, no magic.

Eternal Blade/Revenant Blade for THF TWF high damage martial character. Con: Still no magic, too uberchargey.

Spelldancer/Spellguard of Silverymoon with Persist, Reach, and Chain Spell to buff everyone (maybe as a cohort) Con: No skills for out-of-combat rping.

Lockdown Crusader or Warblade because BC is interesting. Con: No casting!

Fiendbinder because it's interesting and flavorful. Con: Bookkeeping.

Stalker of Kharash since it has a very interesting ability. Con: Too little battle presence.

Wu Jen/Jade Phoenix Mage for Body Outside Body fun with Transcend Mortality and Emerald Immolation. Con: Similar to Swiftblade, the spells threaten to outshine the melee aspect.

Fine Half-Giant Barbarian/Monk/Drunken Master for silly tiny high damage smackdowns. Con: Sounds too strong to have huge range and Colossal Unarmed Strike.

Druid/Moonspeaker with an insect/vermin theme. Con: Bookkeeping, and Druid.

Elemental Spirit Shaman for Avatar: TLA-style casting. Con: Not enough to do out of battle.

Argent Savant/Force Missile Mage because Force damage is fun and hard to block. Con: Basically no skills, kind of a one-trick thing.

Anima Mage (several builds) because it has great flavor, versatility, and free metamagic. Con: Too convoluted oftentimes.

Telflammar Shadowlord because shadowpouncing is awesome. Con: Casting.

Shadowcaster/Ur-Priest as a master thief. Con: Gets repetitive after a while.

Kaorti Fiend of Possession/Thrallherd with two thralls, because it's subtle and flexible. Con: Too gimmicky.

Serene Guardian because it's not overpowered and it's flavorful, but it's a bit slow to act. Con: Takes like 50 rounds to kill something.

Zhentarim Skymage for a super powerful mount. Con: Super powerful mount.

Bard/War Weaver/Sublime Chord/Spellguard of Silverymoon for lots of buffs to the whole party. Con: Too broken.

Master Transmogrifist because it's fun to shapeshift and at this level you can still get 9th level spells. Con: SO much bookkeeping.

So with those in mind, does anyone have suggestions? Something that can help the party and isn't just a lone player but can support itself if need be, has plenty of skills or otherwise out-of-combat presence, probably has magic in some capacity, and doesn't have the power (that I'm just choosing not to use for some reason) to steamroll any encounter. I know that's hard to suit entirely, which is why I've been having such trouble with it.

[Segev]

I would go with a diplomancer/sorcerer type build with a strong touch of illusion, and focus on subtlety. Use your illusions sparingly precisely because the DM would start no-selling them if they felt like "auto-win," and you have all the excuse in the world you need to make them clever and use them dramatically rather than constantly. The enchantment spells are there to supplement your diplomacy; use them on underlings and side characters rather than the big threats, and come at those big foes through their own organizations. You can easily get medium-level entities to be Fanatically loyal to you through magic. Combine a touch of scrying with an extensive informant network of charmed and diplomanced contacts, and you can use your illusions for distant communication.

Alternatively, go with something I've wanted to try for a while: play a Thrallherd, and go with similar diplomancy tactics, but combine it with unfailingly loyal and replenishable followers. Use and abuse Mind Switch, and possibly True Mind Switch if you find a tasty body you want to take over.

In either case, be a human(oid) player of Xorvintaal. Whether other dragons realize or acknowledge it or not, you're playing the game on their level, and possibly winning, due to your vast connections. Be subtle; your party's successes are your moves in the game, and it's critical that your aid be minor so their efforts "score." But not too minor. You're in a support role. You ensure that they have support from the locals wherever they go, that they have the logistics for whatever they need, and that the road is smoothed for them. You're a fixer and an agent, and they need never realize you're also the mastermind pulling the strings.




I'd offer my build for a Beholder Mage/Cerebromancer that starts out as an Elan Psion, but that isn't going the direction you want to go and honestly would be on the "overpowering" side of things if your DM underestimates magic.

[bjoern]

For about a year now I've been eagerly awaiting a friend's Epic campaign that's kept being put off, and I believe it's finally right around the corner. We've had players join and drop, and my interests have fluctuated, and so I've yet to solidly choose a character type that I want to play. I'd like the Playground's help with narrowing down my options.

The campaign is Epic, but the DM is pretty new and I don't think he plans to employ all the perils that Epic can contain. It's going to be a primarily dragon-based campaign following the game of Xorvintaal, so he's removed their racial spellcasting. For that matter, the DM severely underestimates the power of spells and I think doesn't intend to deal with them too often. I'm concerned that if I don't play a spellcaster then we'll die too easily, or just be denied access to things that are expected at high levels (like teleportation), but if I do then I'll be too overpowered compared to the DM's noncaster monsters and the other party members (unclear at this point but I think there will just be two others, a ranged character and a tank probably.)

I'd like some kind of build which has a main gimmick but has backup options to use if the gimmick fails or isn't the wisest choice, and which has out-of-combat options for intrigue. It should have some kind of unifying theme, some kind of motive or moral, which the classes reflect. Although I want to be strong, probably stronger than the mundane party members, I don't want them to think I'm that much stronger, so the more subtle my strength is the better. The personality I could see playing is one that's a little bit ruthless and doesn't have world-ending goals or anything, but doesn't like being interfered with and doesn't want to be played by the dragons. I could see that being applied to any build type though. A proud warrior, a cunning thief, a minionmancer caster, an enchanter/illusionist, wouldn't matter, that kind of personality could be played through any, so I'm really just looking for build suggestions rather than "What kind of personality do you want to play? Build a character around that."

One thing that I'm worried about is that it would be pretty easy to find some powerful gimmick, but I don't want it to be so strong that the DM just fiats it away out of annoyance, and I think that would be fair to do for some. Like if I had an Illusionist/Enchanter who boosted save DCs through the roof, or a master thief who had obscene Hide/Move Silently, I could see the DM just saying that people are making saves or their Spot checks just because it would be too troublesome/boring to let me autowin, and I don't want to put the DM in that position.


Dragonfire Adept with a slew of magic items making him nearly impervious to harm, insisting he's a real dragon, for BC and minor damage. Con: Low damage and repetitive.

Monk/Apostle of Peace/Sacred Fist for healing and a lot of roleplaying. Con: Apostle of Peace.

Wizard/Malconvoker as general summoner and taxi. Con: A lot of bookkeeping with regard to summons.

Ur-Priest/Master of Shrouds as undead minionmancer. Con: Still bookkeeping, and repetitive.

StP Erudite for pure brokenness. Con: Way too overpowered.

Ardent/Metamind for infinite actions and PP. Con: Again, too overpowered.

Thri-Kreen Frenzied Berserker for Two-Handed-Two-Weapon-Fighting. Con: LOOKS too overpowered.

Shadowcraft Mage because Illusions are pretty fun. Con: Regular illusions are too easily beaten by True Seeing, and churning out Shadow Miracles is too strong.

Bloodstorm Blade because ranged melee is kind of neat. Con: Steps on melee and ranged toes, no spellcasting.

Paladin/Gray Guard for roleplaying mainly. Con: Too weak in a real fight.

Ruby Knight Vindicator with a level of Sanctified One of Wee Jas to be REALLY hard to kill. Con: Too little out-of-combat interest.

Changeling Chameleon to be anyone. Con: Jack of all trades, master of none. I want to be a master.

Spymaster/Psibond Agent to be secretly stealthy and manipulative. Con: Great out of combat but basically nothing in combat.

Swiftblade (several builds) for some magic but mostly melee, gishy goodness. Con: Tends to let spellcasting overpower melee in interest.

Truenamer because why not, using Rebuild Item to be a Golemmancer. Con: Still bookkeeping.

Nightmare Spinner/Dread Witch to make everything terrified. Con: Has to resort to cheesy CL boosts to make their fear mastery applicable to dragons.

Illusionist/Enchanter builds (many) to subtly influence the world around him. Con: Saves are too troublesome, too
easily made immune to.

Archivist/Runecaster to buff the team with runes of Persisted spells. Con: Runes are basically infinite-use spells, which are too strong.

Unseen Seer for a Scry and Sneak Attacker. Con: Because of Xorvintaal, Scrying will basically never work.

Eternal Blade (several builds) because I love Island in Time. Con: Too martial, no magic.

Eternal Blade/Revenant Blade for THF TWF high damage martial character. Con: Still no magic, too uberchargey.

Spelldancer/Spellguard of Silverymoon with Persist, Reach, and Chain Spell to buff everyone (maybe as a cohort) Con: No skills for out-of-combat rping.

Lockdown Crusader or Warblade because BC is interesting. Con: No casting!

Fiendbinder because it's interesting and flavorful. Con: Bookkeeping.

Stalker of Kharash since it has a very interesting ability. Con: Too little battle presence.

Wu Jen/Jade Phoenix Mage for Body Outside Body fun with Transcend Mortality and Emerald Immolation. Con: Similar to Swiftblade, the spells threaten to outshine the melee aspect.

Fine Half-Giant Barbarian/Monk/Drunken Master for silly tiny high damage smackdowns. Con: Sounds too strong to have huge range and Colossal Unarmed Strike.

Druid/Moonspeaker with an insect/vermin theme. Con: Bookkeeping, and Druid.

Elemental Spirit Shaman for Avatar: TLA-style casting. Con: Not enough to do out of battle.

Argent Savant/Force Missile Mage because Force damage is fun and hard to block. Con: Basically no skills, kind of a one-trick thing.

Anima Mage (several builds) because it has great flavor, versatility, and free metamagic. Con: Too convoluted oftentimes.

Telflammar Shadowlord because shadowpouncing is awesome. Con: Casting.

Shadowcaster/Ur-Priest as a master thief. Con: Gets repetitive after a while.

Kaorti Fiend of Possession/Thrallherd with two thralls, because it's subtle and flexible. Con: Too gimmicky.

Serene Guardian because it's not overpowered and it's flavorful, but it's a bit slow to act. Con: Takes like 50 rounds to kill something.

Zhentarim Skymage for a super powerful mount. Con: Super powerful mount.

Bard/War Weaver/Sublime Chord/Spellguard of Silverymoon for lots of buffs to the whole party. Con: Too broken.

Master Transmogrifist because it's fun to shapeshift and at this level you can still get 9th level spells. Con: SO much bookkeeping.

So with those in mind, does anyone have suggestions? Something that can help the party and isn't just a lone player but can support itself if need be, has plenty of skills or otherwise out-of-combat presence, probably has magic in some capacity, and doesn't have the power (that I'm just choosing not to use for some reason) to steamroll any encounter. I know that's hard to suit entirely, which is why I've been having such trouble with it.

Grey elf wizard with martial domain at level 1 to trade scribe scroll for improved initiative. Generalist racial substitution levels and make him a domain wizard (conjuration) . Otyguh hole, and take 10 levels of incantatrix. Dark chaos shuffle if you want some more feats. And then start piling on prestige classes: pargonostic apostle, archmage, initiate of the sevenfold veil, mage of the arcane order, fate spinner.

Depending on what level you are mix and match those PrC levels to taste. Persist a bunch of cool stuff on yourself with incantatrix and metamagic effect.

Have his personality be arrogant and snooty and lazy. Has godlike power but huffs when he has to break a sweat or even lift a finger.

You've got tons of options here just make sure to play down for the group and only take the kid gloves off of they're in danger.

[DeAnno]

High level Incarnate, maybe with 3 levels of Umbral Disciple for hard-to-foil HIPS? It tends to not look very overpowered but it can do a lot of things and shift around, has some unique stuff. Incarnate Essentia really curves out at high levels and could be interesting to see.

If you are looking for something like that but with more power you could mix it with a casting class (maybe even something like Beguiler or Dread Necro or even Warmage) and Soulcaster.

[nedz]

Dragonfire Adept with a slew of magic items making him nearly impervious to harm, insisting he's a real dragon, for BC and minor damage. Con: Low damage and repetitive.
Monk/Apostle of Peace/Sacred Fist for healing and a lot of roleplaying. Con: Apostle of Peace.
Wizard/Malconvoker as general summoner and taxi. Con: A lot of bookkeeping with regard to summons.
Ur-Priest/Master of Shrouds as undead minionmancer. Con: Still bookkeeping, and repetitive.
StP Erudite for pure brokenness. Con: Way too overpowered.
Ardent/Metamind for infinite actions and PP. Con: Again, too overpowered.
Thri-Kreen Frenzied Berserker for Two-Handed-Two-Weapon-Fighting. Con: LOOKS too overpowered.
Shadowcraft Mage because Illusions are pretty fun. Con: Regular illusions are too easily beaten by True Seeing, and churning out Shadow Miracles is too strong.
Bloodstorm Blade because ranged melee is kind of neat. Con: Steps on melee and ranged toes, no spellcasting.
Paladin/Gray Guard for roleplaying mainly. Con: Too weak in a real fight.
Ruby Knight Vindicator with a level of Sanctified One of Wee Jas to be REALLY hard to kill. Con: Too little out-of-combat interest.
Changeling Chameleon to be anyone. Con: Jack of all trades, master of none. I want to be a master.
Spymaster/Psibond Agent to be secretly stealthy and manipulative. Con: Great out of combat but basically nothing in combat.
Swiftblade (several builds) for some magic but mostly melee, gishy goodness. Con: Tends to let spellcasting overpower melee in interest.
Truenamer because why not, using Rebuild Item to be a Golemmancer. Con: Still bookkeeping.
Nightmare Spinner/Dread Witch to make everything terrified. Con: Has to resort to cheesy CL boosts to make their fear mastery applicable to dragons.
Illusionist/Enchanter builds (many) to subtly influence the world around him. Con: Saves are too troublesome, too
easily made immune to.
Archivist/Runecaster to buff the team with runes of Persisted spells. Con: Runes are basically infinite-use spells, which are too strong.
Unseen Seer for a Scry and Sneak Attacker. Con: Because of Xorvintaal, Scrying will basically never work.
Eternal Blade (several builds) because I love Island in Time. Con: Too martial, no magic.
Eternal Blade/Revenant Blade for THF TWF high damage martial character. Con: Still no magic, too uberchargey.
Spelldancer/Spellguard of Silverymoon with Persist, Reach, and Chain Spell to buff everyone (maybe as a cohort) Con: No skills for out-of-combat rping.
Lockdown Crusader or Warblade because BC is interesting. Con: No casting!
Fiendbinder because it's interesting and flavorful. Con: Bookkeeping.
Stalker of Kharash since it has a very interesting ability. Con: Too little battle presence.
Wu Jen/Jade Phoenix Mage for Body Outside Body fun with Transcend Mortality and Emerald Immolation. Con: Similar to Swiftblade, the spells threaten to outshine the melee aspect.
Fine Half-Giant Barbarian/Monk/Drunken Master for silly tiny high damage smackdowns. Con: Sounds too strong to have huge range and Colossal Unarmed Strike.
Druid/Moonspeaker with an insect/vermin theme. Con: Bookkeeping, and Druid.
Elemental Spirit Shaman for Avatar: TLA-style casting. Con: Not enough to do out of battle.
Argent Savant/Force Missile Mage because Force damage is fun and hard to block. Con: Basically no skills, kind of a one-trick thing.
Anima Mage (several builds) because it has great flavor, versatility, and free metamagic. Con: Too convoluted oftentimes.
Telflammar Shadowlord because shadowpouncing is awesome. Con: Casting.
Shadowcaster/Ur-Priest as a master thief. Con: Gets repetitive after a while.
Kaorti Fiend of Possession/Thrallherd with two thralls, because it's subtle and flexible. Con: Too gimmicky.
Serene Guardian because it's not overpowered and it's flavorful, but it's a bit slow to act. Con: Takes like 50 rounds to kill something.
Zhentarim Skymage for a super powerful mount. Con: Super powerful mount.
Bard/War Weaver/Sublime Chord/Spellguard of Silverymoon for lots of buffs to the whole party. Con: Too broken.
Master Transmogrifist because it's fun to shapeshift and at this level you can still get 9th level spells. Con: SO much bookkeeping.




That's quite a long list, care to narrow this down a little ?
(I've taken the liberty of numbering them for convenience)

[Nettlekid]

I would go with a diplomancer/sorcerer type build with a strong touch of illusion, and focus on subtlety. Use your illusions sparingly precisely because the DM would start no-selling them if they felt like "auto-win," and you have all the excuse in the world you need to make them clever and use them dramatically rather than constantly. The enchantment spells are there to supplement your diplomacy; use them on underlings and side characters rather than the big threats, and come at those big foes through their own organizations. You can easily get medium-level entities to be Fanatically loyal to you through magic. Combine a touch of scrying with an extensive informant network of charmed and diplomanced contacts, and you can use your illusions for distant communication.

Alternatively, go with something I've wanted to try for a while: play a Thrallherd, and go with similar diplomancy tactics, but combine it with unfailingly loyal and replenishable followers. Use and abuse Mind Switch, and possibly True Mind Switch if you find a tasty body you want to take over.

In either case, be a human(oid) player of Xorvintaal. Whether other dragons realize or acknowledge it or not, you're playing the game on their level, and possibly winning, due to your vast connections. Be subtle; your party's successes are your moves in the game, and it's critical that your aid be minor so their efforts "score." But not too minor. You're in a support role. You ensure that they have support from the locals wherever they go, that they have the logistics for whatever they need, and that the road is smoothed for them. You're a fixer and an agent, and they need never realize you're also the mastermind pulling the strings.

I'd offer my build for a Beholder Mage/Cerebromancer that starts out as an Elan Psion, but that isn't going the direction you want to go and honestly would be on the "overpowering" side of things if your DM underestimates magic.

This is the direction I was thinking about going with any Enchanter build and the Unseen Seer I remarked on. If you can get a mind-affecting effect on someone in the first place, it's not too hard to keep it on them by demanding that they never use Protection from X or Mind Blank. I love the idea of somehow getting a fast Geas (Uncanny Forethought or Archmage's SLA comes to mind) and ordering them to fail their save against Dominate. An Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper can really rack up high damage with sneak attack on top of whatever spell you're using, and getting insta-daze or prone or bull rush with stuff like Frost Breath, Ironthunder Horn, or Sonic Blast is the icing on the cake. (My thought for the Unseen Seer would be to play a charismatic Goblin who pretends to be a dopey shaman that no one takes serious with his mumbo jumbo about bad juju, and yet is an underworld boss and assassin.)

You know, amazingly, Body Leech never came to mind for me, but a Thrallherd/Body Leech could be interesting. Certainly a way to get a lovely race without LA. I'm a bit concerned though that anything to do with Psionics would lose its thunder too quickly, like I'd get tired of my gimmick because I get to do it so infrequently and instead just fall back on PP recharge tricks and going nova.

I definitely do plan to "play" the game, like you're suggesting, which is why I mentioned I wanted some kind of headstrong type who doesn't want to be manipulated. I know the DM will say that I can't actually be playing the game for real, but I can certainly have a character who claims to be playing it on his own terms.


Grey elf wizard with martial domain at level 1 to trade scribe scroll for improved initiative. Generalist racial substitution levels and make him a domain wizard (conjuration) . Otyguh hole, and take 10 levels of incantatrix. Dark chaos shuffle if you want some more feats. And then start piling on prestige classes: pargonostic apostle, archmage, initiate of the sevenfold veil, mage of the arcane order, fate spinner.

Depending on what level you are mix and match those PrC levels to taste. Persist a bunch of cool stuff on yourself with incantatrix and metamagic effect.

Have his personality be arrogant and snooty and lazy. Has godlike power but huffs when he has to break a sweat or even lift a finger.

You've got tons of options here just make sure to play down for the group and only take the kid gloves off of they're in danger.

That's not at all what I'm going for. If I want a powerful caster I can build it many times over. And I have. But that's too strong and outright obviously so. And it's just dumb to have a Superman-esque character who chooses (for no reason other than "I dun wanna") not to use their full power unless lives are at stake or something.


High level Incarnate, maybe with 3 levels of Umbral Disciple for hard-to-foil HIPS? It tends to not look very overpowered but it can do a lot of things and shift around, has some unique stuff. Incarnate Essentia really curves out at high levels and could be interesting to see.

If you are looking for something like that but with more power you could mix it with a casting class (maybe even something like Beguiler or Dread Necro or even Warmage) and Soulcaster.

Hmm, Incarnate and incarnum classes in general are something I've never put a lot of thought into. I don't understand them super well, and I always feel like people say that they can get incredibly high skill checks and such, but the most I see is on the order of +16 or so to anything, which is pretty good but not as much as any Cleric using Guidance of the Avatar. I think I wouldn't be able to use Incarnate effectively. But if you have tips on the subject to win me over, I'd love to hear them, because I do like the whole tactical allotment aspect of incarnum. Umbral Disciple is pretty good though, I'd never seen anything which allows you to hide in self-made concealment like that.

[Phelix-Mu]

In a lower-op campaign, we can probably crowbar any utility or function out of any build. Thus, I would encourage the OP to stow the mechanical/crunch concerns for the moment, and maybe brainstorm personality, gender, appearance, and other fluffy stuff like background and such. If one is starting epic, remember, a grand tale already is part of the character's personal history.

How did [name] become one of the greatest heroes in history?

Does anyone know [name], and if not, why not, as fame and power typically go hand in hand?

Interest in politics or leadership, or subtle, behind-the-scenes loner?

Died many times for the cause (a zealot), or a stubborn survivor, willing to do anything, make any compromise, in order to come out on top?

Was the rise to power meteoric, or a many-centuries crawl to the top, out-living or outwitting the competition?

Many other considerations that have nothing to do with build can be made, and will help us ENORMOUSLY in narrowing down the list of capable epic builds from NI to something...less than 40-ish.

[Nettlekid]

That's quite a long list, care to narrow this down a little ?
(I've taken the liberty of numbering them for convenience)

It is a long list, and there are definitely some I'm more interested in than others, but it's possible I wouldn't go for ANY of the ones on that list. I'm just looking to brainstorm, and that list offers starting points and things I've already thought about.


In a lower-op campaign, we can probably crowbar any utility or function out of any build. Thus, I would encourage the OP to stow the mechanical/crunch concerns for the moment, and maybe brainstorm personality, gender, appearance, and other fluffy stuff like background and such. If one is starting epic, remember, a grand tale already is part of the character's personal history.

How did [name] become one of the greatest heroes in history?

Does anyone know [name], and if not, why not, as fame and power typically go hand in hand?

Interest in politics or leadership, or subtle, behind-the-scenes loner?

Died many times for the cause (a zealot), or a stubborn survivor, willing to do anything, make any compromise, in order to come out on top?

Was the rise to power meteoric, or a many-centuries crawl to the top, out-living or outwitting the competition?

Many other considerations that have nothing to do with build can be made, and will help us ENORMOUSLY in narrowing down the list of capable epic builds from NI to something...less than 40-ish.

I know that's usually a good place to start, but honestly I don't have any particular archetype that I've been dying to play, and I'm more interested in the skillset and abilities that a high level character can have. I'd then reverse engineer a backstory out of the classes to flesh out the character. For example, I built a Fire Elf Barbarian/Ranger/Warblade/Revenant Blade/Eternal Blade because I thought the spinning sawblade of death was pretty cool. I then wrote up a backstory describing how the ancestral Elves took a desert kingdom as their own, guided by a Siabre who was the spirit of the desert and whose elemental's touch infused the royal bloodline from that point on (justifying "Fire Elf"). The independent kingdom was overthrown by the greater governmental power of the world and the haughty crown prince executed, but not before he'd sired heirs around the world (because he was rather like that, you know.) Generations passed and a Fire Elf was born to a Barbarian tribe, and the Elf youngling began having dreams of the life in the ancient desert kingdom, and even began to speak with the crown prince through his dreams. The prince was able to teach him fighting styles (Warblade maneuvers) more complicated than the Barbarian's simple style, and this led to the young Elf's success in the world to the point that the Elf was inducted into the government's military, though he knew it was his goal to take down the government from the inside. He became a Revenant Blade in honor of the defeated crown prince, and eventually the memory of the crown prince became so strong that it manifested as a guiding spirit (the Eternal Blade's Blade Guide) that he confers with. His goal is to reclaim the throne which he knows is owed to him, but to do so is to wage war on the strongest military in the world and the one that he is currently fighting for.

I've thought of fleshing that out further by giving him a caster cohort who is a Necropolitan and a mercenary who killed the crown prince, who now wants to right the wrongs of the past and put him on the throne so she can die in peace (but mainly because I want to have a caster in the party). And I could easily work that story into this DM's game by having the war and the taking of the throne be a Xorvintaal move, so this character would be outraged that his birthright is just worth a few points and he's only a pawn.

So you see, I don't have a problem with making a backstory, personality, and goals based on the character build. The abilities are the cool thing, and then it's not hard to imagine a type of character who gained those abilities in their life.

[DeAnno]

I'm not actually too familiar myself, but I know people have done things.... hmm, this is probably useful (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=580.0).

Looking through the Soulmeld section: Well, the Vitality Belt seems pretty extreme (Quadratically increasing max hp, +160 not implausible), Incarnate Avatar offers to-hit bonuses and can make you immune to daze if you want to play with Celerity, Incarnate Weapon has at will stuns and it seems you can get some high melee attack bonuses between it and the Incarnate Avatar.

Part of the reason I suggested it is Incarnates are known for being very non-obvious, and you might find interesting things to do with it as you play. If you want something more direct in Incarnum you could be a Totemist I suppose.

[Immabozo]

You could go Psion/Metamind. You loose so many ML, that it has never made it onto an optimization build I have ever seen. But it has manifesting and can be both out of combat and in combat effectiveness, depending on power choice, and then you have a lot of cool class features. Losing ML will keep you in check, but the meta mind class features will keep you effective-ish

[Nettlekid]

I'm not actually too familiar myself, but I know people have done things.... hmm, this is probably useful (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=580.0).

Looking through the Soulmeld section: Well, the Vitality Belt seems pretty extreme (Quadratically increasing max hp, +160 not implausible), Incarnate Avatar offers to-hit bonuses and can make you immune to daze if you want to play with Celerity, Incarnate Weapon has at will stuns and it seems you can get some high melee attack bonuses between it and the Incarnate Avatar.

Part of the reason I suggested it is Incarnates are known for being very non-obvious, and you might find interesting things to do with it as you play. If you want something more direct in Incarnum you could be a Totemist I suppose.

Wow, that's a good amount of HP. See, if other Soulmelds boosted anything to that degree, I'd jump on this class, but most seem pretty low. Like yeah, that Incarnate Avatar is good for non-daze, but getting +4 to +8 on attack rolls isn't worth that much Essentia. (Especially since I'm fighting dragons, so if I need to fight I'm probably going to go with a super cheesy Item of Wraithstrike or something.)

I do like the non-obvious aspect of it, it's subtle enough to slip under the radar. I'd prefer that kind of thing to the outright frenzy of Totemist.


You could go Psion/Metamind. You loose so many ML, that it has never made it onto an optimization build I have ever seen. But it has manifesting and can be both out of combat and in combat effectiveness, depending on power choice, and then you have a lot of cool class features. Losing ML will keep you in check, but the meta mind class features will keep you effective-ish

Thought about that, though Ardent is probably the better choice to get high level powers. With infinite PP, Temporal Reiteration, and Dominant Ideal Twinned Synchronicity, I can have infinite standard actions. A bit too strong, but I don't trust myself to do less.

[Segev]

I can't look at my books right now, but you may want to check Incarnate again. I think they get up to 6 or 8 essentia in any given Soulmeld as their cap literally by doing nothign but taking all the levels of their class. Then there are feats and other tricks for pushing that limit still higher. I don't actually know what the cap is when all is said and done, but I think it tops out a bit higher than a mere +8.

[Nettlekid]

I can't look at my books right now, but you may want to check Incarnate again. I think they get up to 6 or 8 essentia in any given Soulmeld as their cap literally by doing nothign but taking all the levels of their class. Then there are feats and other tricks for pushing that limit still higher. I don't actually know what the cap is when all is said and done, but I think it tops out a bit higher than a mere +8.

Ah yes, they do have Expanded Soulmeld Capacity at levels 3 and 15, so at level 20 when the normal max is 4 Essentia they can have 5 or 6. And there's the feat Expanded Soulmeld Capacity which does the same for a single soulmeld, and the Incarnum Focus magic item which expends the Essentia capacity for a soulmeld occupying a specific body slot. So you can have up to 8 Essentia in a single Soulmeld. I think.

[Segev]

I think there's also a spell or psi power for boosting it a bit further, and a feat for burning turn attempts on pushing it up.

It's probably not worth going all 20 levels on it, mind; my understanding is that it's useful for splashing more than anything else. The one build for which I'm looking at it is a Changeling Incarnate 4/Totemist 2/Chameleon 10/(not sure what to finish out with), because the Soulmelds allow for a level of re-focus that combines nicely with the Chameleon's. And that combination gets access to a lot of soulmelds, has 4 Chakra binds (including Totem), and has essentia capacity 1-2 higher than normal for its level. Not to mention 6 soulmelds and 6 essentia and 2 chakra binds. I'm sure I can find ways to have soulmelds complement Chameleon's movable bonuses such that the character can set himself up to do nearly anything.

[Immabozo]

Thought about that, though Ardent is probably the better choice to get high level powers. With infinite PP, Temporal Reiteration, and Dominant Ideal Twinned Synchronicity, I can have infinite standard actions. A bit too strong, but I don't trust myself to do less.

But I thought the whole point of this was to NOT optimize.

[Red Fel]

Ah yes, they do have Expanded Soulmeld Capacity at levels 3 and 15, so at level 20 when the normal max is 4 Essentia they can have 5 or 6. And there's the feat Expanded Soulmeld Capacity which does the same for a single soulmeld, and the Incarnum Focus magic item which expends the Essentia capacity for a soulmeld occupying a specific body slot. So you can have up to 8 Essentia in a single Soulmeld. I think.

More specifically, a level 20 character has base essentia capacity 4. That's the capacity of anything that takes essentia, including soulmelds, feats, class features, and equipment. An Incarnate, at levels 3 and 15, increases that capacity by 1, but only for soulmelds. The capstone likewise only applies to Incarnate soulmelds. As for the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat, it doesn't benefit a single soulmeld period; it benefits a single soulmeld each time you shape soulmelds (i.e. every day), so you can change which soulmeld gets the +1 on a day-to-day basis.

And yes, Incarnum Focus items work like that.

So that gives you base 4, +2 from Incarnate, +1 from the Focus, +1 from ESC, for a total of 8. Note, however, that this amount cannot exceed your Con bonus, so you'd better have enough there to make it worthwhile.

[Nettlekid]

But I thought the whole point of this was to NOT optimize.

Not exactly. I don't like the idea of purposely picking suboptimal choices within a build that can have better choices. Like a Conjurer Wizard who chooses not to take Orb of Force. There's no reason for that besides a kind of metagamey "I want to nerf myself." I want a mid-optimized character who is as strong as that character can be. Tome of Battle characters are going to have a much lower optimization ceiling than a Wizard, so if I want a not-overpowered character I would prefer to optimize a ToB build than make a sub-par Wizard build. I want not overpowered, not unoptimized.


More specifically, a level 20 character has base essentia capacity 4. That's the capacity of anything that takes essentia, including soulmelds, feats, class features, and equipment. An Incarnate, at levels 3 and 15, increases that capacity by 1, but only for soulmelds. The capstone likewise only applies to Incarnate soulmelds. As for the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat, it doesn't benefit a single soulmeld period; it benefits a single soulmeld each time you shape soulmelds (i.e. every day), so you can change which soulmeld gets the +1 on a day-to-day basis.

And yes, Incarnum Focus items work like that.

So that gives you base 4, +2 from Incarnate, +1 from the Focus, +1 from ESC, for a total of 8. Note, however, that this amount cannot exceed your Con bonus, so you'd better have enough there to make it worthwhile.

Okay, so yeah, I was on the ball with 8. 8 just doesn't seem like that much. It's quite a lot for that Vitality belt giving +160 HP, but most Soulmelds give you a bonus on a 1:1 or 2:1 basis, meaning you get +8 to attacks or +16 to a skill, and while that's nice it's definitely not worth ~15 levels in Incarnate.

[Segev]

It can also be +8d4 damage, or similar. And with the number of soulmelds you have, it's more like +16 on one skill and +14 on a lot of others, if you go for skill-granting ones. Soulmelds also tend to give a lot of weird abilities once you start chakra binding them.



As far as "mid-op that's as good as it can be," there's always Truenamer. Gate shenanigans aside, you have to optimize HARD to get it viable.

[Immabozo]

Not exactly. I don't like the idea of purposely picking suboptimal choices within a build that can have better choices. Like a Conjurer Wizard who chooses not to take Orb of Force. There's no reason for that besides a kind of metagamey "I want to nerf myself." I want a mid-optimized character who is as strong as that character can be. Tome of Battle characters are going to have a much lower optimization ceiling than a Wizard, so if I want a not-overpowered character I would prefer to optimize a ToB build than make a sub-par Wizard build. I want not overpowered, not unoptimized.

There is a reason, if you make one. "My character looks down upon that, like the Jedi look upon the dark side. Just because it is powerful, doesn't make it right"

[Red Fel]

Okay, so yeah, I was on the ball with 8. 8 just doesn't seem like that much. It's quite a lot for that Vitality belt giving +160 HP, but most Soulmelds give you a bonus on a 1:1 or 2:1 basis, meaning you get +8 to attacks or +16 to a skill, and while that's nice it's definitely not worth ~15 levels in Incarnate.

The real reason, in my mind, to stay in Incarnate - other than the essentia pool, which can go into more than just soulmelds - is what you get at Incarnate 16 and 19: Chakra Bind (Heart) and (Soul), respectively. Those ordinarily require epic feats and a boatload of Con, and Incarnate gives them to you for free. (Ironsoul Forgemaster gets the Heart chakra at IF 10, but nobody gets Soul pre-epic.) Now think about what you can bind to those chakras. Again, not just soulmelds (although that 1/week Gate is pretty sweet); these two chakras cover your robes or armor. So if you wanted to bind your armor for whatever reason (say it was a set of Soulbound Armor), you'd need access to the Soul chakra, and there's only one way to get it pre-epic.

That said, if you don't need the essentia or the chakras? Incarnate is a dipping class. Pretty much full stop.

[Nettlekid]

It can also be +8d4 damage, or similar. And with the number of soulmelds you have, it's more like +16 on one skill and +14 on a lot of others, if you go for skill-granting ones. Soulmelds also tend to give a lot of weird abilities once you start chakra binding them.

As far as "mid-op that's as good as it can be," there's always Truenamer. Gate shenanigans aside, you have to optimize HARD to get it viable.

That's true, +10~16 to many skills is good. But I feel like it would be lackluster after only a short while. After all, we're looking at skills, and Incarnate has 2+Int skill points and a tiny list of class skills. If I went full Rogue or Factotum I'd have equitable numbers (probably greater with Item Familiar and the like) and all the benefits of those classes. It's true that Incarnates are very versatile, but it feels like anything's too little.

I had thought about Truenamer. The fluff is awesome, and the utterances aren't half bad. Say My Name And I Am There is SO COOL. But utterances work worse and worse the higher level you are, due to that increase in DC. Knowing that I'll be against a lot of dragons, the DCs will be hard to hit even if I use an Item Familiar and a +30 competence item. I was thinking about going minionmancer with it, either through Golems using Rebuild Item to restore them or with Fiendbinder, but that's too much bookkeeping and too many little side characters and I don't want to bother with all that.


There is a reason, if you make one. "My character looks down upon that, like the Jedi look upon the dark side. Just because it is powerful, doesn't make it right"

But what cases would that come up? Like, a summoner Wizard who doesn't go into Malconvoker for that reason makes total sense, I agree. Or not going into Anima Mage for the free metamagic. But what moral reason would a Psion have for not using Synchronicity? Or a Cleric not use Divine Metamagic? To push those things away because I as a player don't want the character to have them doesn't make sense for the character, who loves a field of study, not to use all the tools available in that field.


The real reason, in my mind, to stay in Incarnate - other than the essentia pool, which can go into more than just soulmelds - is what you get at Incarnate 16 and 19: Chakra Bind (Heart) and (Soul), respectively. Those ordinarily require epic feats and a boatload of Con, and Incarnate gives them to you for free. (Ironsoul Forgemaster gets the Heart chakra at IF 10, but nobody gets Soul pre-epic.) Now think about what you can bind to those chakras. Again, not just soulmelds (although that 1/week Gate is pretty sweet); these two chakras cover your robes or armor. So if you wanted to bind your armor for whatever reason (say it was a set of Soulbound Armor), you'd need access to the Soul chakra, and there's only one way to get it pre-epic.

That said, if you don't need the essentia or the chakras? Incarnate is a dipping class. Pretty much full stop.

Yeah, I think all in all Incarnate is too much of a jack-of-all-trades type for me to be interested in it. It's not special or unique enough to strike me as an amazing hero type that deserves to fight dragons and save the world and what-have-you.

[DeAnno]

Maybe you could mix some of the Incarnum stuff with Umbral Disciple and Swordsage with Shadow Hand maneuvers? You get a thematic roguish build that way that isn't entirely dependent on just hiding all the time. Off the top of my head something like Swordsage 1/Incarnate 4/Totemist 2/Umbral Disciple 3/Chameleon 2/Swordsage +8 maybe?

[Phelix-Mu]

My point was more that, given a vague concept and 20 levels, we can probably cram whatever kind of powers you want in there. Starting from nothing and looking at NI viable builds is going to turn up a ton of things that are interesting and effective.

But if you want a more dartboard-type approach, let me see....

Well, I've always liked Exemplar for versatility. It mixes a nice, low-op support quality with skillmonkey, and that is my cup of tea. I suppose between 4-7 levels of Exemplar is more than enough to pick up the bulk of their schtick, so let's aim for around 13 levels of other stuff, aiming a bit higher on the tier chart than simply "skillmonkey."

Well, I've been dying to use Nentyar Hunter. Five levels for five levels of spells, all generally orchestrated around an outdoorsy theme, which is fair enough. Nentyar Hunter requires some FR-specific stuff, like a regional feat for the Great Dale or Kn(local)(Great Dale) of 2 ranks. A DM could resassign the locales to match his/her campaign or waive them altogether (fairly common practice). It also requires Alertness, Combat Casting, and Track.

For the base of the build, I guess I'd use some Wisdom-synergy, perhaps Wild Monk. This should give you the basic Wild Monk wildshape at 6th (I think that's when it kicks in), five levels of Nentyar Hunter, and some Exemplar to make you the best at whatever skillmonkey stuff you want to pin down.

Cons: No 9ths, small amount of casting.

Pros: Actual casting, so wands and scrolls without UMD for list stuff. Also open to spell-list expansion stuff. Also, not going to step on anyone's toes. Access to WBL or cohort-grade companions could further boost op-level, if the core is too weak. Ample room for face, survivalist, or jack of all trades flavor.

Alright, option number two (and just spitballing here, if that wasn't evident):

DFA. While a dip may be possible, the full 20 of DFA isn't too shabby if you apply decent effort on the feats front. My favorite approach is to double-down on the dragon flavor, pick up Dragon Cohort from Draconomicon, Entangling Breath from RotD, and maybe one of the Draconic Auras presented in Dragon Magic (Double Draconic Aura, if you find yourself wondering what to do with feats).

Cons: No 9ths, no actual casting. I haven't seen rules for epic DFAs (though I wouldn't be surprised if they exist), so it's not clear where to go from DFA 20. Also, epic monsters might have high saves; depends on the DM's design expertise and how much HD inflation he plans to use.

Pros: No 9ths, invocation-user. Goodly amount of skill points. Tack on Knowledge Devotion for a bit more damage. Unlikely to blow the other characters out of the water.

I can up the threat level, if that is desired. Was trying to lower the ceiling a bit to maintain parity expressed in the OP.

[dascarletm]

If you want to go caster pick a theme, and adhere to it.

You'll be useful in your specialty, yet decent when outside it.

Perhaps a beguiler.



Another idea could be the warlock dual-progression classes.

Eldritch Theurge and Eldritch Disciple.

Dual progression will slow down your power creep and allow for a wide array of options.

Just leave out the early access shenanigans. :smallwink:

[aleucard]

I have an idea for you that you might appreciate, though it relies on Dragon Magazine material (Dragon 283, to be specific; google is your buddy here). Basically, your job is to make Saxton Hale by way of the Mighty Contender of Kord. If everything is allowed, I'd suggest cleric entry, with a Prestige Paladin dip for access to Battle Blessing so you can make use of your spells efficiently while in melee, Monk or Swordsage for Wis to AC, a dip into something for Maneuvers if you didn't go Swordsage, Sacred Fist maybe (especially if its wording over table) to polish off the rest after taking Mighty Contender to 10. Your ranged capabilities are probably going to suck massively (maybe with the exception of a Hank's Bow or something to take advantage of your quite literally godly Str Mod), but that's what a party is for, and you can just use your turns to buff the people who actually can attack if necessary. If you really want, you could probably sub in RKV somewhere, but that's not necessary in the slightest, and depending on use may not really fit the character's fluff anyway.

[dascarletm]

But what cases would that come up? Like, a summoner Wizard who doesn't go into Malconvoker for that reason makes total sense, I agree. Or not going into Anima Mage for the free metamagic.
But what moral reason would a Psion have for not using Synchronicity?
Psions gain a limited choice of powers. If his psychic abilities are focused to a particular thing, then he/she will have powers based around that. It's a little metagamey in a way to pick the very best of all choices. Your character doesn't know that all his possible powers are listed in a book. He may just develop them, you the player may be picking these things, but the character may or may not have a choice in the matter.


Or a Cleric not use Divine Metamagic?

A martially inclined cleric would focus towards martial abilites. Again if the character is saying, "gee, that divine metamagic feat sure is more powerful, than weapon focus. I mean weapon focus only gives me a +1 to hit," then that by far is way more metagame. While a cleric that says, I'm training to really drive my weapon into peoples weak-points more effectively (then takes Imp Crit) is less metagame.


To push those things away because I as a player don't want the character to have them doesn't make sense for the character, who loves a field of study, not to use all the tools available in that field.


They arn't privy to having all published 3.5 material. Look to real world people for example. I know there are different focuses for the field of chemistry. I went into Bio/analytical chemistry. I did this because I enjoyed it. Other aspects of chemistry may pay more or less, but if it was obviously the better choice I still would not have chose it, because I enjoy what I chose. It is just my preference. People are people, and rarely should a realistic character always choose the best of all possible choices when it comes to something like this.

[Nettlekid]

Maybe you could mix some of the Incarnum stuff with Umbral Disciple and Swordsage with Shadow Hand maneuvers? You get a thematic roguish build that way that isn't entirely dependent on just hiding all the time. Off the top of my head something like Swordsage 1/Incarnate 4/Totemist 2/Umbral Disciple 3/Chameleon 2/Swordsage +8 maybe?

Not bad, but what does that really leave me with? Incarnate and Totemist are pretty low on skills, meaning I'll have to spread those from Swordsage quite thin. Even with all those Incarnum classes, my Essentia Pool isn't too huge, meaning I could either max out like...one Soulmeld, or sprinkle Essentia in a bunch. I end up with IL 14, which isn't shabby, but there's not a lot I have to show for the loss. And I don't think that character would have a very strong combat presence. If I wanted super-stealth assassin I'd go for a Telflammar Shadowlord build, maybe with some Factotum in there to shore up social skills. Or honestly a Cha-based Unseen Seer.


If you want to go caster pick a theme, and adhere to it.

You'll be useful in your specialty, yet decent when outside it.

Perhaps a beguiler.



Another idea could be the warlock dual-progression classes.

Eldritch Theurge and Eldritch Disciple.

Dual progression will slow down your power creep and allow for a wide array of options.

Just leave out the early access shenanigans. :smallwink:

That's the thought process I had when looking at heavy Illusionist and/or Enchanter builds. I drafted a couple of Ultimate Magus builds using Wizard and Beguiler and focusing on either side (so it was either a Wizard 18/Beguiler 10 or Beguiler 18/Wizard 10) and those do seem good, but again, I think I'd get too tired of the gimmick too quickly and more importantly the DM will get sick of my illusions or enchantments. "No, the bank guy makes his save so he doesn't give you all his money. No, the shopkeeper doesn't give you all the magic items for free." Etc. (And before you say that the shopkeeper should be better defended, we ARE Epic level, so who's going to be stronger than us?)

The Warlock classes are interesting, but I just don't love Warlock all that much. I've not played one, but seen it played enough that it's not fresh to me. And I think it would step on the toes of the ranged player.


My point was more that, given a vague concept and 20 levels, we can probably cram whatever kind of powers you want in there. Starting from nothing and looking at NI viable builds is going to turn up a ton of things that are interesting and effective.

But if you want a more dartboard-type approach, let me see....

Well, I've always liked Exemplar for versatility. It mixes a nice, low-op support quality with skillmonkey, and that is my cup of tea. I suppose between 4-7 levels of Exemplar is more than enough to pick up the bulk of their schtick, so let's aim for around 13 levels of other stuff, aiming a bit higher on the tier chart than simply "skillmonkey."

Well, I've been dying to use Nentyar Hunter. Five levels for five levels of spells, all generally orchestrated around an outdoorsy theme, which is fair enough. Nentyar Hunter requires some FR-specific stuff, like a regional feat for the Great Dale or Kn(local)(Great Dale) of 2 ranks. A DM could resassign the locales to match his/her campaign or waive them altogether (fairly common practice). It also requires Alertness, Combat Casting, and Track.

For the base of the build, I guess I'd use some Wisdom-synergy, perhaps Wild Monk. This should give you the basic Wild Monk wildshape at 6th (I think that's when it kicks in), five levels of Nentyar Hunter, and some Exemplar to make you the best at whatever skillmonkey stuff you want to pin down.

Cons: No 9ths, small amount of casting.

Pros: Actual casting, so wands and scrolls without UMD for list stuff. Also open to spell-list expansion stuff. Also, not going to step on anyone's toes. Access to WBL or cohort-grade companions could further boost op-level, if the core is too weak. Ample room for face, survivalist, or jack of all trades flavor.

Alright, option number two (and just spitballing here, if that wasn't evident):

DFA. While a dip may be possible, the full 20 of DFA isn't too shabby if you apply decent effort on the feats front. My favorite approach is to double-down on the dragon flavor, pick up Dragon Cohort from Draconomicon, Entangling Breath from RotD, and maybe one of the Draconic Auras presented in Dragon Magic (Double Draconic Aura, if you find yourself wondering what to do with feats).

Cons: No 9ths, no actual casting. I haven't seen rules for epic DFAs (though I wouldn't be surprised if they exist), so it's not clear where to go from DFA 20. Also, epic monsters might have high saves; depends on the DM's design expertise and how much HD inflation he plans to use.

Pros: No 9ths, invocation-user. Goodly amount of skill points. Tack on Knowledge Devotion for a bit more damage. Unlikely to blow the other characters out of the water.

I can up the threat level, if that is desired. Was trying to lower the ceiling a bit to maintain parity expressed in the OP.

Exemplar is definitely cool. I love to get at least one level into a heavily skill-based build just for the Take 10 ability.
Nentyar Hunter is...interesting, I guess? I feel like the class features are just a little boring though. Faster tracking? +10 movement speed? +4 to Spot? Meh.

I do love DFA, and one of my first big builds (and to this date most flavorful) was a DFA Dragonborn Mongrelfolk who was raised by dragons and insisted he was a real dragon. I tried to deck him out in magic items that mimicked dragon abilities that he didn't already have, and then just tons of defensive stuff. The battlefield control aspect is pretty great, but I feel like the damage is just too little. It would work to lock down opponents, outspeed them and Flyby Attack them to nothing, but I don't want to drag the battle on that long and it would get tiresome after a short while I think.


Psions gain a limited choice of powers. If his psychic abilities are focused to a particular thing, then he/she will have powers based around that. It's a little metagamey in a way to pick the very best of all choices. Your character doesn't know that all his possible powers are listed in a book. He may just develop them, you the player may be picking these things, but the character may or may not have a choice in the matter.



A martially inclined cleric would focus towards martial abilites. Again if the character is saying, "gee, that divine metamagic feat sure is more powerful, than weapon focus. I mean weapon focus only gives me a +1 to hit," then that by far is way more metagame. While a cleric that says, I'm training to really drive my weapon into peoples weak-points more effectively (then takes Imp Crit) is less metagame.



They arn't privy to having all published 3.5 material. Look to real world people for example. I know there are different focuses for the field of chemistry. I went into Bio/analytical chemistry. I did this because I enjoyed it. Other aspects of chemistry may pay more or less, but if it was obviously the better choice I still would not have chose it, because I enjoy what I chose. It is just my preference. People are people, and rarely should a realistic character always choose the best of all possible choices when it comes to something like this.

I get what you mean, but keep in mind that these are low-Epic characters with Int and Wis scores higher than any human being that has ever lived in real life. They ought to know what's out there in the world. If anyone knows it, it would be them. These are characters that would have discovered what they want to do early in life, found teachers and trainers in mystic temples and legendary dojos around the world, and honed their art to become the best in the world at what they're doing. To reflect that, I think it does make sense for the chosen feats to be those which synergize best with their class features and overall goal. You might have many Clerics in the same church who took Weapon Focus, but this is the one who took Extend Spell first and that carried him further in life. All the other little Rogues learned how to become Agile and Stealthy, but this guy practiced how to be a Darkstalker. It's not just that they took "the best thing" for them, but that the choices they made are what put them in the place they are today. That's the guy whose story I'm following.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just make an arcane gish, persist all your buffs, and use your remaining spells for a few crowd controls and a lot of utility. Get either Incantatrix or Spelldancer to add metamagic to your spells without increasing the spell slot, but keep in mind that Spelldancer can't use it with necromancy or evocation spells. The standard build stats with either Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1 or Human Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1. From there you take Abjurant Champion 5/ Incantatrix 4/ Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom 4. In the epic levels you should grab a few levels of Paragnostic Apostle for Mind Over Matter and/or Spatial Awareness, then keep taking more Incantatrix. Get Uncanny Forethought to cast situational spells whenever they're needed.

Use Persistent Draconic Polymorph to always be in the form of a War Troll, so there's no bookkeeping or changing of your stats. Buff yourself with Greater Luminous Armor, Persistent Shield, use Persistent Spell, Fell Drain, and Fell Frighten with Death Armor, Fire Shield twice, Cloud of Knives, and possibly Thunderlance. Use Persistent Spell with Wraithstrike, Superior Invisibility, Magic Circle Against Evil, Swift Fly, Arcane Spellsurge, Selective Spell (Widened) Antimagic Field, Ray Deflection or Friendly Fire, Bite of the Werebear, Foresight, Greater Dimension Jumper, Karmic Aura/Backlash/Retribution, etc. Get four Pearls of Power to cast Energy Immunity five times every day, and also cast Superior Resistance, Mind Blank, ((Rod of) Extended) Greater Magic Weapon, Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire, Greater Anticipate Teleportation, and any other hour/level or 24-hour buffs you want.

Get a Starmantle Cloak (BoED), your Selective Spell Antimagic Field will make it so every weapon that ever strikes you is counted as nonmagical when striking you and be automatically destroyed, including natural weapons. Plus they'll take damage from Death Armor and the Fire Shields, each of which inflicts a negative level and inflicts/escalates a Shaken condition that lasts ten rounds, plus they'll be subject to your Karmic X spells. Get every necessary item effect (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) that your spells won't cover. Get a +1 Keen Valorous (UE) Kaorti Resin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) Falchion with a wand chamber, UMD a Wand of Rhino's Rush, and use Power Attack and Leap Attack to hit for something like +28 touch for 4d6+148 with a 17-20/x4 crit, and a dazes if they fail a DC 34 Fort save. Your opponent will be in your AMF when you hit them so all of their magical defenses will be inactive, including DR that's overcome by magic, epic, or aligned weapons. Consider putting Wounding and Marrowcrushing (BoVD) on your weapon so you'll deal two points of Con damage per hit as well.

[Segev]

I had thought about Truenamer. The fluff is awesome, and the utterances aren't half bad. Say My Name And I Am There is SO COOL. But utterances work worse and worse the higher level you are, due to that increase in DC. Knowing that I'll be against a lot of dragons, the DCs will be hard to hit even if I use an Item Familiar and a +30 competence item. I was thinking about going minionmancer with it, either through Golems using Rebuild Item to restore them or with Fiendbinder, but that's too much bookkeeping and too many little side characters and I don't want to bother with all that.What about going "minionmancer" but only with something on the Fine scale as your minions, and then abuse them for Aid Another actions? Years ago I saw a build called the "nanomancer" that did something like this. I don't recall how it worked, but it could make your Truenaming never fail. Maybe.



I think all in all Incarnate is too much of a jack-of-all-trades type for me to be interested in it. It's not special or unique enough to strike me as an amazing hero type that deserves to fight dragons and save the world and what-have-you.

Hm. That means my other suggestion of going Chameleon off of some sort of factotum, binder, or even (yes) Incarnate chassis would be out. It's not going to be easy to stack it TOO high, even with optimization, but it definitely is a jack-of-all-trades. It's what it's meant to be.

[Immabozo]

That's true, +10~16 to many skills is good. But I feel like it would be lackluster after only a short while. After all, we're looking at skills, and Incarnate has 2+Int skill points and a tiny list of class skills. If I went full Rogue or Factotum I'd have equitable numbers (probably greater with Item Familiar and the like) and all the benefits of those classes. It's true that Incarnates are very versatile, but it feels like anything's too little.

I had thought about Truenamer. The fluff is awesome, and the utterances aren't half bad. Say My Name And I Am There is SO COOL. But utterances work worse and worse the higher level you are, due to that increase in DC. Knowing that I'll be against a lot of dragons, the DCs will be hard to hit even if I use an Item Familiar and a +30 competence item. I was thinking about going minionmancer with it, either through Golems using Rebuild Item to restore them or with Fiendbinder, but that's too much bookkeeping and too many little side characters and I don't want to bother with all that.

But what cases would that come up? Like, a summoner Wizard who doesn't go into Malconvoker for that reason makes total sense, I agree. Or not going into Anima Mage for the free metamagic. But what moral reason would a Psion have for not using Synchronicity? Or a Cleric not use Divine Metamagic? To push those things away because I as a player don't want the character to have them doesn't make sense for the character, who loves a field of study, not to use all the tools available in that field.

Yeah, I think all in all Incarnate is too much of a jack-of-all-trades type for me to be interested in it. It's not special or unique enough to strike me as an amazing hero type that deserves to fight dragons and save the world and what-have-you.

As dascarletm said, you might have a character who values the manipulation on the physical to their advantage and is so focused, misses the manipulation of time. Or perhaps, sees it as a weakness used by those who dont know true strength. Maybe it is something that your character is simply incapable of, because it IS the "power of the mind" and your character has no power over it. Mechanically, that is reflected in choosing different powers

[Segev]

Insofar as feats and known spells on limited-list casters (such as sorcerers and the like), you might not know the feat or spell not because you IC chose not to, but because your powers represent more innate talent than learned skill. You can't manifest Synchronicity because you just never figured out the trick. You can't perform Divine Metamagic because your power over the undead doesn't redirect into your spells, and you don't understand how it works for others.

You may as well ask "Why didn't I learn Time Stop?" in the same breath you'd ask "Why wasn't I born a half-Celestial?"

IC reasons for your OOC choice to limit your optimization need not be IC choices, but simply truths about who you are. Elsa, from Frozen, doesn't throw fireballs or cause plants to grow. This isn't a matter of her choosing not to learn it, so much as it's just not where her magical talents lie. The fact that Professor X can't use TK to hover has nothing to do with him not choosing to learn that particular psionic power, and everything to do with that not being a power he possesses.

[Phelix-Mu]

Alright, so if want a little more octane in your build...

I once made a really enjoyable Int-based monk 15-ish/wiz1/Abjurant Champion/etc/etc for an epic campaign. Since you don't have to slog through all the dysfunction of the monk levels, you can jump right into the fun with wraithstrike, adamantine strike, and maxed greater mighty wallop on 24/7. The character will be faster than god, capable of laying down some intense beatdown, and hard-to-hit by even epic standards.

Finishing touches include Sun School, Conjurer for Abrupt Jaunt, and maybe a familiar for benign transposition for additional mobility and more uses of Sun School. Snap Kick, ofc, cause it combos off of the Sun School teleport attack. If you have a couple feats left, you can toss in a bit of Stunning Fist op, to make sure you can use your mighty fists even in non-kill situations (which is often important).

Luminous Armour and Int-op to make your AC insane, necklace of natural attacks to deal with DR and such. I was rocking AC of over 50, 16d8 dmg attacks, and a movement speed approaching 200' (epic item boots of swiftness was pretty much my favorite item of that campaign). And I hadn't even dipped into the more effective ACFs for monk, like Invisible Fist or Crescent Moon.

The flavor here is largely travel. As a God of Speed, [name] is a scout, a first-strike weapon, and capable of being useful in numerous situations with enough creativity (wizard spells). Master of the East Wind from Dragon into epic will continue to improve some monk stuff with arcane casting, or maybe Legacy Champion to continue Abjurant Champion if you haven't hit the op-tolerance of your table yet.

Another option:

So, skillmonkey has popped a lot. While the Int-based monk is good on that front, the skill list is a bit wanting. Well, going back to basics, bard is a very strong base for support and skillmonkey. Keep your hands off the deep-end of IC-op and Sublime Chord, and you can even avoid outstripping the rest of the party. Best of all, among the mountain of not-so-great epic feats out there, there are actually a fair amount of okay bard feats.

Since we are looking at fairly complex builds, I guess I would suggest...hmm...can bard get Mindspy? I always thought Mindspy was cool. Well, Unseen Seer, Urban Savant, and Ardent Dilettante are my usual go-to PrCs for skill-heavy builds that need some casting. Alternately, you could maybe use bard as entry into one of the dual-progression warlock classes mentioned above (Eldritch Theurge, in this case). That could be interesting, and invocations and such offset some of the downfalls of the bard casting a bit.

So maybe Bard X/Warlock X/Eldritch Theurge the rest of the way. This has the added benefit of the Epic Invocations in that web content that I don't recall the name of just now. Only one or two were really good, but all of them were pretty impressive in a low-op context. You'd need to avoid most of the op tricks here, as early entry dual-progression plus IC op plus Sublime Chord progression would probably explode the DM's plans, though the build is support-heavy, so maybe tolerable.

Flavor for bard/warlock might be trickster-oriented. Chaos takes many forms, and it's not always constructive. For one reason or another, one chooses to cooperate. But probably not out of the goodness of one's heart; maybe making those around one better is entertaining. After all, one of the most fascinating aspects of many mortals is their ability to exceed their own limits. As a bard, one is well-positioned to watch people in the midst of their struggles to overcome, to grow, and succeed. By adding that one special word, bit of encouragement, or wily "thumbs up," the bardlock can tip the scales in favor of the party (or watch them fail by witholding such, lol...not good for table dynamic, but some nice semi-serious role play schtick).

Anyway, just some more ideas. This brainstorming is good to exercise the creative muscles, hehe.

[dascarletm]

That's the thought process I had when looking at heavy Illusionist and/or Enchanter builds. I drafted a couple of Ultimate Magus builds using Wizard and Beguiler and focusing on either side (so it was either a Wizard 18/Beguiler 10 or Beguiler 18/Wizard 10) and those do seem good, but again, I think I'd get too tired of the gimmick too quickly and more importantly the DM will get sick of my illusions or enchantments. "No, the bank guy makes his save so he doesn't give you all his money. No, the shopkeeper doesn't give you all the magic items for free." Etc. (And before you say that the shopkeeper should be better defended, we ARE Epic level, so who's going to be stronger than us?)

The Warlock classes are interesting, but I just don't love Warlock all that much. I've not played one, but seen it played enough that it's not fresh to me. And I think it would step on the toes of the ranged player.


Don't go something with powers like illusion. Instead look at what your party needs, because you don't want to step on toes, and go based off that.

If you had to narrow down what you want the character to do to three things, what would they be?



I get what you mean, but keep in mind that these are low-Epic characters with Int and Wis scores higher than any human being that has ever lived in real life. They ought to know what's out there in the world. If anyone knows it, it would be them. These are characters that would have discovered what they want to do early in life, found teachers and trainers in mystic temples and legendary dojos around the world, and honed their art to become the best in the world at what they're doing. To reflect that, I think it does make sense for the chosen feats to be those which synergize best with their class features and overall goal. You might have many Clerics in the same church who took Weapon Focus, but this is the one who took Extend Spell first and that carried him further in life. All the other little Rogues learned how to become Agile and Stealthy, but this guy practiced how to be a Darkstalker. It's not just that they took "the best thing" for them, but that the choices they made are what put them in the place they are today. That's the guy whose story I'm following.

You can still have someone who made good choices to be where they are, and still ignore really powerful things such as DMM.

Anyway this is a good opportunity for you. You can play an interesting class and not have to worry about its power too much. That's why dual progression could be nice. It brings you down in power, but adds options. What about a good ol' theruge Archivist/Wizard on the search for true understanding. Pick up landlord from the stronghold builder's guide and construct a massive library/fortress that can serve as a base of operations. Cap off your levels to be 5Archivist/5Wizard/10MT. Only level 8 spells, but cleric and wizard casting.

[Nettlekid]

Just make an arcane gish, persist all your buffs, and use your remaining spells for a few crowd controls and a lot of utility. Get either Incantatrix or Spelldancer to add metamagic to your spells without increasing the spell slot, but keep in mind that Spelldancer can't use it with necromancy or evocation spells. The standard build stats with either Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1 or Human Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1. From there you take Abjurant Champion 5/ Incantatrix 4/ Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom 4. In the epic levels you should grab a few levels of Paragnostic Apostle for Mind Over Matter and/or Spatial Awareness, then keep taking more Incantatrix. Get Uncanny Forethought to cast situational spells whenever they're needed.

Use Persistent Draconic Polymorph to always be in the form of a War Troll, so there's no bookkeeping or changing of your stats. Buff yourself with Greater Luminous Armor, Persistent Shield, use Persistent Spell, Fell Drain, and Fell Frighten with Death Armor, Fire Shield twice, Cloud of Knives, and possibly Thunderlance. Use Persistent Spell with Wraithstrike, Superior Invisibility, Magic Circle Against Evil, Swift Fly, Arcane Spellsurge, Selective Spell (Widened) Antimagic Field, Ray Deflection or Friendly Fire, Bite of the Werebear, Foresight, Greater Dimension Jumper, Karmic Aura/Backlash/Retribution, etc. Get four Pearls of Power to cast Energy Immunity five times every day, and also cast Superior Resistance, Mind Blank, ((Rod of) Extended) Greater Magic Weapon, Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire, Greater Anticipate Teleportation, and any other hour/level or 24-hour buffs you want.

Get a Starmantle Cloak (BoED), your Selective Spell Antimagic Field will make it so every weapon that ever strikes you is counted as nonmagical when striking you and be automatically destroyed, including natural weapons. Plus they'll take damage from Death Armor and the Fire Shields, each of which inflicts a negative level and inflicts/escalates a Shaken condition that lasts ten rounds, plus they'll be subject to your Karmic X spells. Get every necessary item effect (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) that your spells won't cover. Get a +1 Keen Valorous (UE) Kaorti Resin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) Falchion with a wand chamber, UMD a Wand of Rhino's Rush, and use Power Attack and Leap Attack to hit for something like +28 touch for 4d6+148 with a 17-20/x4 crit, and a dazes if they fail a DC 34 Fort save. Your opponent will be in your AMF when you hit them so all of their magical defenses will be inactive, including DR that's overcome by magic, epic, or aligned weapons. Consider putting Wounding and Marrowcrushing (BoVD) on your weapon so you'll deal two points of Con damage per hit as well.

I'm going to repeat: I don't want to overshadow my entire party. I want to be able to get by on my own, yes, but that doesn't mean making everyone else entirely redundant. More importantly, yeah, I'm well aware of Persisting every spell under the sun, and if you build for it it's not hard to do. It's not hard to pull out every trick you possible can. I don't want to.


What about going "minionmancer" but only with something on the Fine scale as your minions, and then abuse them for Aid Another actions? Years ago I saw a build called the "nanomancer" that did something like this. I don't recall how it worked, but it could make your Truenaming never fail. Maybe.

Hm. That means my other suggestion of going Chameleon off of some sort of factotum, binder, or even (yes) Incarnate chassis would be out. It's not going to be easy to stack it TOO high, even with optimization, but it definitely is a jack-of-all-trades. It's what it's meant to be.

I've seen that Nanobot build, and it's quite clever, but even though it's not too obviously gamebreaking I don't think it would be that fun to play. "All my 10,000 bots Aid Another on me, so I attack for +20,000. All my skills are made with +20,000. I am as a god." I would get bored of that.

And yeah, when you're going for a wide spectrum of abilities (perhaps in a larger party where everyone could use a boost and some niche roles need to be filled without requiring a devoted build to that role) Chameleons are pretty cool, but I think for an Epic build I'd want to be a total master of my art. If I went Chameleon, I'd probably just use it for spells.


As dascarletm said, you might have a character who values the manipulation on the physical to their advantage and is so focused, misses the manipulation of time. Or perhaps, sees it as a weakness used by those who dont know true strength. Maybe it is something that your character is simply incapable of, because it IS the "power of the mind" and your character has no power over it. Mechanically, that is reflected in choosing different powers

I think what it boils down to is that I want the character I play to be the most class-ish of his class. I want the Rogue who hides and sneaks and steals and stabs the best. I want the Cleric who says his god is all-powerful and the magic given to him is all-powerful. I want the Wizard who specializes in a school and shows the world how strong that school is. And to accomplish those things, they'd pick the best options available to them. It can certainly be done another way, but this is the way I'd prefer to do it.


Insofar as feats and known spells on limited-list casters (such as sorcerers and the like), you might not know the feat or spell not because you IC chose not to, but because your powers represent more innate talent than learned skill. You can't manifest Synchronicity because you just never figured out the trick. You can't perform Divine Metamagic because your power over the undead doesn't redirect into your spells, and you don't understand how it works for others.

You may as well ask "Why didn't I learn Time Stop?" in the same breath you'd ask "Why wasn't I born a half-Celestial?"

IC reasons for your OOC choice to limit your optimization need not be IC choices, but simply truths about who you are. Elsa, from Frozen, doesn't throw fireballs or cause plants to grow. This isn't a matter of her choosing not to learn it, so much as it's just not where her magical talents lie. The fact that Professor X can't use TK to hover has nothing to do with him not choosing to learn that particular psionic power, and everything to do with that not being a power he possesses.

While that's true, from a character creation standpoint I'm still the one picking the powers. I mentioned earlier that I'd been thinking about say, a Vermin-based Druid or an Avatar: The Last Airbender-styled Spirit Shaman. In cases like those, although they have many more spells to choose from, I'm going to only ever choose vermin-based spells or elemental spells. I could fluff that as the only option available, or just have my characters choose those over any other, but whatever it is it comes back to "What do I, the player, want my character to have?" And I, the player, don't want to leave out anything I want the character to have.


Alright, so if want a little more octane in your build...

I once made a really enjoyable Int-based monk 15-ish/wiz1/Abjurant Champion/etc/etc for an epic campaign. Since you don't have to slog through all the dysfunction of the monk levels, you can jump right into the fun with wraithstrike, adamantine strike, and maxed greater mighty wallop on 24/7. The character will be faster than god, capable of laying down some intense beatdown, and hard-to-hit by even epic standards.

Finishing touches include Sun School, Conjurer for Abrupt Jaunt, and maybe a familiar for benign transposition for additional mobility and more uses of Sun School. Snap Kick, ofc, cause it combos off of the Sun School teleport attack. If you have a couple feats left, you can toss in a bit of Stunning Fist op, to make sure you can use your mighty fists even in non-kill situations (which is often important).

Luminous Armour and Int-op to make your AC insane, necklace of natural attacks to deal with DR and such. I was rocking AC of over 50, 16d8 dmg attacks, and a movement speed approaching 200' (epic item boots of swiftness was pretty much my favorite item of that campaign). And I hadn't even dipped into the more effective ACFs for monk, like Invisible Fist or Crescent Moon.

The flavor here is largely travel. As a God of Speed, [name] is a scout, a first-strike weapon, and capable of being useful in numerous situations with enough creativity (wizard spells). Master of the East Wind from Dragon into epic will continue to improve some monk stuff with arcane casting, or maybe Legacy Champion to continue Abjurant Champion if you haven't hit the op-tolerance of your table yet.

Another option:

So, skillmonkey has popped a lot. While the Int-based monk is good on that front, the skill list is a bit wanting. Well, going back to basics, bard is a very strong base for support and skillmonkey. Keep your hands off the deep-end of IC-op and Sublime Chord, and you can even avoid outstripping the rest of the party. Best of all, among the mountain of not-so-great epic feats out there, there are actually a fair amount of okay bard feats.

Since we are looking at fairly complex builds, I guess I would suggest...hmm...can bard get Mindspy? I always thought Mindspy was cool. Well, Unseen Seer, Urban Savant, and Ardent Dilettante are my usual go-to PrCs for skill-heavy builds that need some casting. Alternately, you could maybe use bard as entry into one of the dual-progression warlock classes mentioned above (Eldritch Theurge, in this case). That could be interesting, and invocations and such offset some of the downfalls of the bard casting a bit.

So maybe Bard X/Warlock X/Eldritch Theurge the rest of the way. This has the added benefit of the Epic Invocations in that web content that I don't recall the name of just now. Only one or two were really good, but all of them were pretty impressive in a low-op context. You'd need to avoid most of the op tricks here, as early entry dual-progression plus IC op plus Sublime Chord progression would probably explode the DM's plans, though the build is support-heavy, so maybe tolerable.

Flavor for bard/warlock might be trickster-oriented. Chaos takes many forms, and it's not always constructive. For one reason or another, one chooses to cooperate. But probably not out of the goodness of one's heart; maybe making those around one better is entertaining. After all, one of the most fascinating aspects of many mortals is their ability to exceed their own limits. As a bard, one is well-positioned to watch people in the midst of their struggles to overcome, to grow, and succeed. By adding that one special word, bit of encouragement, or wily "thumbs up," the bardlock can tip the scales in favor of the party (or watch them fail by witholding such, lol...not good for table dynamic, but some nice semi-serious role play schtick).

Anyway, just some more ideas. This brainstorming is good to exercise the creative muscles, hehe.

That Monk build looks cool, and although this is really low Epic so I won't be able to use so many Monk levels and still have those spells, I could use other gishy PrCs to do the job. Monk does make a cool base, especially for Shadow Sun Ninja and/or Drunken Master.

Why on EARTH does Mindspy have 2+Int skill points and a terrible list? It should have 3/4 BAB and 8+Int skill points. It's a spy!! Ardent Dilettante is amusing, and I've always thought it could make a good Doctor. Just die with impunity. The Eldritch Theurge is an interesting direction to take, but I've personally found the Eldritch Theurge's class features a little uninteresting. I feel like Eldritch Theurge with a Bard base is just about only a Warlock with a few tricky spells. Bard doesn't add too much to that build, especially since the skills are so frontloaded. Your description of the trickster archetype does remind me that I had once been imagining a luck-based character with tons of rerolls who altered luck for himself and his allies. The picture of people failing on their own and then succeeding only when my character wills it is amusing, though again I expect the DM would just let them succeed on a lot regardless of my help if he knows they could succeed if I was helping. The capacity to use Surge of Fortune, Sense Weakness, and a Vorpal Sword to auto-behead anything with a head was also amusing.


Don't go something with powers like illusion. Instead look at what your party needs, because you don't want to step on toes, and go based off that.

If you had to narrow down what you want the character to do to three things, what would they be?



You can still have someone who made good choices to be where they are, and still ignore really powerful things such as DMM.

Anyway this is a good opportunity for you. You can play an interesting class and not have to worry about its power too much. That's why dual progression could be nice. It brings you down in power, but adds options. What about a good ol' theruge Archivist/Wizard on the search for true understanding. Pick up landlord from the stronghold builder's guide and construct a massive library/fortress that can serve as a base of operations. Cap off your levels to be 5Archivist/5Wizard/10MT. Only level 8 spells, but cleric and wizard casting.

Huh? Why not Illusion? Illusion seems like something that's creative and versatile without being overpowering. Unfortunately it's fairly easily foiled by True Seeing, but there are (moderately successful) workarounds.

And honestly I think something like that build is almost the opposite of what I'm after. Now yeah, spells open up a huge variety of options, but they don't feel special and unique. I love quirky class features. Like the Eternal Blade's Island in Time, or the Telflammar Shadowlord's Shadowpounce, or the Serene Guardian's Resonance. Spells are great to have (crucial in some cases) but I'd prefer if it was more than JUST spells.

[dascarletm]

Huh? Why not Illusion? Illusion seems like something that's creative and versatile without being overpowering. Unfortunately it's fairly easily foiled by True Seeing, but there are (moderately successful) workarounds.
It was in response to you saying this:

" I think I'd get too tired of the gimmick too quickly and more importantly the DM will get sick of my illusions or enchantments. "No, the bank guy makes his save so he doesn't give you all his money. No, the shopkeeper doesn't give you all the magic items for free." Etc."



And honestly I think something like that build is almost the opposite of what I'm after. Now yeah, spells open up a huge variety of options, but they don't feel special and unique. I love quirky class features. Like the Eternal Blade's Island in Time, or the Telflammar Shadowlord's Shadowpounce, or the Serene Guardian's Resonance. Spells are great to have (crucial in some cases) but I'd prefer if it was more than JUST spells.

I'll look into some stuff, but there are some pretty cool if obscure classes that have interesting but less than powerful abilities. You should scour for those sorts of things. I'll mention it if I think of anything though.

[Nettlekid]

It was in response to you saying this:

" I think I'd get too tired of the gimmick too quickly and more importantly the DM will get sick of my illusions or enchantments. "No, the bank guy makes his save so he doesn't give you all his money. No, the shopkeeper doesn't give you all the magic items for free." Etc."



I'll look into some stuff, but there are some pretty cool if obscure classes that have interesting but less than powerful abilities. You should scour for those sorts of things. I'll mention it if I think of anything though.

Oh, okay, sorry, I thought you were just saying that Illusions were no good. I like illusions, I just don't think I'd get to use them too well.

Yeah, I've looked through many books looking for things like that. There are definitely some cool single abilities, but the class itself is usually too useless to justify taking it.

[Segev]

Well... if you do want to truly master your field, there IS the Beholder Mage/Cerebromancer.

To play to the "grumble grumble why are you making me work?" aspect, he could typically fire off one or two spells a turn that are mainly designed to support the party while keeping him entertained or keeping them from distracting him from some non-combat activity to which he's paying more attention. If he gets annoyed and has to really go all-out, he goes Mailman and launches a damage spell from every spellstalk. Bonus points if the damage is all the same type and same die type so you just have to roll the dice once.

Maybe an Acid Arrow, Extended Acid Arrow, Empowered acid Arrow, Extended Empowered Acid Arrow, Extended Maximized Acid Arrow, Empowered Maximized Acid Arrow, Extended Empowered Maximized Acid Arrow. (And that's still not quite going all out; just spells of levels 2-8.)

You use this personality and laziness to keep your turns succinct, because if you really go full-bore, you're going to cast 10 spells (one each of levels 0-9) and at least one Psionic power (maybe two, thanks to Schism).

[Nettlekid]

Well... if you do want to truly master your field, there IS the Beholder Mage/Cerebromancer.

To play to the "grumble grumble why are you making me work?" aspect, he could typically fire off one or two spells a turn that are mainly designed to support the party while keeping him entertained or keeping them from distracting him from some non-combat activity to which he's paying more attention. If he gets annoyed and has to really go all-out, he goes Mailman and launches a damage spell from every spellstalk. Bonus points if the damage is all the same type and same die type so you just have to roll the dice once.

Maybe an Acid Arrow, Extended Acid Arrow, Empowered acid Arrow, Extended Empowered Acid Arrow, Extended Maximized Acid Arrow, Empowered Maximized Acid Arrow, Extended Empowered Maximized Acid Arrow. (And that's still not quite going all out; just spells of levels 2-8.)

You use this personality and laziness to keep your turns succinct, because if you really go full-bore, you're going to cast 10 spells (one each of levels 0-9) and at least one Psionic power (maybe two, thanks to Schism).

No. Darn character limit.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'll look into some stuff, but there are some pretty cool if obscure classes that have interesting but less than powerful abilities. You should scour for those sorts of things. I'll mention it if I think of anything though.

Oh, in the way of obscure-but-cool, one of the versions of Arachnomancer (one moment for a book check) has an apparently at-will poison touch ability.

Oh, it's the one from Underdark:


Poison Touch (Ex): The
arachnomancer can secrete
poison as a free action. When he
first gains this ability at 3rd
level, his touch deals 1d4 points
of Strength damage. The damage
increases to 1d6 points at 6th
level and to 1d8 points at 9th
level. In each case, a successful
Fortitude save (DC 10 + arachnomancer
level + arachnomancer’s
Con modifier) halves
the damage, to a minimum of 1
point. The arachnomancer’s
poison cannot be harvested or
saved for any purpose.

Aren't many ways to get at will poison on a character without picking a race with a poison ability. A sensible DM will waive the evil requirement and all that silly fluff. I believe there is stuff that can be done with this, especially if the dm is silly enough to greenlight venomfire for an Ex poison ability.

[Segev]

No.

Didn't think so, but it is my most extreme-master-of-his-art build, so I brought it up just in case.

[Nettlekid]

Oh, in the way of obscure-but-cool, one of the versions of Arachnomancer (one moment for a book check) has an apparently at-will poison touch ability.

Oh, it's the one from Underdark:



Aren't many ways to get at will poison on a character without picking a race with a poison ability. A sensible DM will waive the evil requirement and all that silly fluff. I believe there is stuff that can be done with this, especially if the dm is silly enough to greenlight venomfire for an Ex poison ability.

Meh, poisons are so easily blocked, and even if things aren't immune the DC is pretty low. And 1d8 Strength isn't that much, I'd rather use Strength Draining Strike repeatedly. Venomfire is just damage, which is good, but there are a lot of ways to do damage without spending all those levels on Arachnomancer.

EDIT:
Hey, what can you guys think of with regard to Void Disciple? The Sense Void ability is pretty cool for being non-Scrying Scrying, and the ability to grant ranks in a skill or any feat (I don't think you need to meet prereqs, right?) is awesome for versatility and being handy to teammates.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're worried about true seeing ruining an illusionist shtick, use Invisible Spell with Obscuring Snow. Only creatures able to see invisible things will be blinded by the snowstorm, so either they see your illusions or they don't see anything at all.

On top of that, a Shadowcraft Mage can get >100% reality for opponents who make their save to disbelieve or automatically see through their shadow illusions, so it turns True Seeing into a disadvantage.

[Phelix-Mu]

Meh, poisons are so easily blocked, and even if things aren't immune the DC is pretty low. And 1d8 Strength isn't that much, I'd rather use Strength Draining Strike repeatedly. Venomfire is just damage, which is good, but there are a lot of ways to do damage without spending all those levels on Arachnomancer.

Three levels. And you'd be surprised how many uses there are for paralyzed people...oh, wait, you didn't specify if this was an evil campaign or not.:smalltongue:

The venomfire trick would be very...exploitable, but I agree a rather niche attraction.

[Nettlekid]

If you're worried about true seeing ruining an illusionist shtick, use Invisible Spell with Obscuring Snow. Only creatures able to see invisible things will be blinded by the snowstorm, so either they see your illusions or they don't see anything at all.

On top of that, a Shadowcraft Mage can get >100% reality for opponents who make their save to disbelieve or automatically see through their shadow illusions, so it turns True Seeing into a disadvantage.

If there's a blinding snow everywhere I go, it rather defeats the purpose of subtlety through illusions. For one, everyone will feel the cold. But more than that, someone with True Seeing will see it and say "Hey, he's up to something!" when I'd prefer them to think "Oh, my True Seeing sees through all illusions, so those must be real" when Insidious Magic trumps it.
But on that note, does Invisible Darkness work?

[Nettlekid]

Three levels. And you'd be surprised how many uses there are for paralyzed people...oh, wait, you didn't specify if this was an evil campaign or not.:smalltongue:

The venomfire trick would be very...exploitable, but I agree a rather niche attraction.

I expect it's not an Evil campaign as such, but I know for a fact that the DM would be open to Evil characters. He loves playing Chaotic Stupid Evil Drow Priestess Assassin types.

[Segev]

Wizard/Cerebromancer/Thrallherd with Necrotic Cyst and Undead Leadership (which does NOT conflict with Thrallherd's trick), using minions with Necrotic Cysts and Necrotic Scrying to see everywhere and infecting the unsuspecting with still more cysts until you decide you want to enslave them with Necrotic Tumor...then use them as detonation-bombs for Necrotic Eruption for the semi-free Heighten effect that gives to Cysting other things hit by the Eruption?

[Nettlekid]

Wizard/Cerebromancer/Thrallherd with Necrotic Cyst and Undead Leadership (which does NOT conflict with Thrallherd's trick), using minions with Necrotic Cysts and Necrotic Scrying to see everywhere and infecting the unsuspecting with still more cysts until you decide you want to enslave them with Necrotic Tumor...then use them as detonation-bombs for Necrotic Eruption for the semi-free Heighten effect that gives to Cysting other things hit by the Eruption?

Dude, too much. Just about any full casting build that's relying on spells and no skills or really anything else is too much.

[Immabozo]

I think what it boils down to is that I want the character I play to be the most class-ish of his class. I want the Rogue who hides and sneaks and steals and stabs the best. I want the Cleric who says his god is all-powerful and the magic given to him is all-powerful. I want the Wizard who specializes in a school and shows the world how strong that school is. And to accomplish those things, they'd pick the best options available to them. It can certainly be done another way, but this is the way I'd prefer to do it.


So you go telepathy and manipulate others, or nomad and specialize in movement and teleportaion, or shaper and make things, maybe shaper into constructor PrC and make really, really good astral constructs. Just because the option is there, and effective, doesn't mean it is the best or you have to choose it.

A druid is hunting down a very large group of bad buys who go into a forest. Surrounding the forest and burning it down might be an effective, possible the most effective option - there is no combat, no danger to the druid, but that is not the option the druid will go with. The druid goes with the less effective, more dangerous path of hunting them down himself.

Just because an option is the most effective, does not make it the best one.

For example, my girl friend and I just had a fight. Same fight with different set dressing every few months for a year and a half, sometimes more often, sometimes less. Breaking up with her would be an effective option to stop the fighting. But I choose a different option, because I think it is better.

A Red Wizard of They thinks Evocation is the strongest school that ever existed. Those lowly time manipulating, action economy breaking wizards are just slapping a pitiful band aid on their weaker school, just covering up the weakness in their school. So why would he ever chose that particular spell to ever disgrace the pages of his spellbook?

You are making a person, you can make an attitude that sculpts their choices, however you want to chose them.

There is always the option that you shouldn't play in this campaign. If you cannot build a character and not optimize that character to the utmost, then perhaps this campaign is a poor fit for you.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If there's a blinding snow everywhere I go, it rather defeats the purpose of subtlety through illusions. For one, everyone will feel the cold. But more than that, someone with True Seeing will see it and say "Hey, he's up to something!" when I'd prefer them to think "Oh, my True Seeing sees through all illusions, so those must be real" when Insidious Magic trumps it.
But on that note, does Invisible Darkness work?

Yes, and no. It still cancels and suppresses light sources, but the shadowy illumination it creates is only visible to creatures who can see invisible. So to creatures who cannot see invisible, it will probably be complete darkness and their darkvision will function normally, but to creatures who can see invisible it will be shadowy illumination and their darkvision and low-light vision won't work. Note that a Heightened Silent Image that creates a shadow illusion of a Darkness spell will count the Silent Image's heightened spell level when determining what level of light effects it will suppress. If you get divine casting (Wizard/Shadowcraft Mage/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge) then an Invisible Heightened+Earth Spell Deeper Darkness that counts as a 10th level spell will overpower everything except a Heightened+Earth Spell light spell of equal level. Sadly you can hire an NPC spellcaster to cast a Continual Flame modified as such for only 2,050 gp, Invisible Spell optional.

Also keep in mind that True Seeing is only effective out to 120 ft., so illusions further than that will not be automatically thwarted. Furthermore, creatures are only allowed to make a saving throw against illusions they interact with, so even a lowly Silent Image from a wand with a DC 11 will fool an epic character until they bump into or otherwise interact with it. For example, if you create an illusion of a floor over a pit, nobody will even get a chance to make a save against it until someone has fallen through. If you use Invisibility Sphere to conceal the party, opponents will only detect you with True Seeing if they get within 120 ft., but remember that See Invisibility can be made permanent and has effectively unlimited range.

[Nettlekid]

*snip*

Dude, what's your problem? Why would you just jump into "You have problems and shouldn't play in your friends campaign because you can't not optimize"? Basically everything I've been saying in this thread is that I'm looking for something that fits in. You seem to be unable to differentiate optimization from being overpowered. I do want to be optimized, but I would be happy with an optimized Knight or Dragon Shaman, which is not as overpowered as a mid-OP Psion or Wizard.

But at the root of it, what I'm telling you and what you're not acknowledging is that I'm going to pick the choices that I want to pick. And you say "You are making a person, you can make an attitude that sculpts their choices, however you want to chose them" (that should be "choose" by the way) but are invalidating the possibility that the person whose attitude I'm making is the type to choose the choices I want them to have. Which I think is pretty standard for any character! If I wanted to play a Shaper, I'd play a Shaper and load up on Astral Construct stuff. If I wanted to play a Telepath, I'd play a Telepath and rock out Psionic Charm and Psionic Dominate. I do not want to play those classes. So stop badgering me about the wrong character choices I'm not even making.

[Segev]

Dude, too much. Just about any full casting build that's relying on spells and no skills or really anything else is too much.

In that case, I think you'll enjoy the sorcerous diplomancer the most.

[Immabozo]

Dude, what's your problem? Why would you just jump into "You have problems and shouldn't play in your friends campaign because you can't not optimize"? Basically everything I've been saying in this thread is that I'm looking for something that fits in. You seem to be unable to differentiate optimization from being overpowered. I do want to be optimized, but I would be happy with an optimized Knight or Dragon Shaman, which is not as overpowered as a mid-OP Psion or Wizard.

But at the root of it, what I'm telling you and what you're not acknowledging is that I'm going to pick the choices that I want to pick. And you say "You are making a person, you can make an attitude that sculpts their choices, however you want to chose them" (that should be "choose" by the way) but are invalidating the possibility that the person whose attitude I'm making is the type to choose the choices I want them to have. Which I think is pretty standard for any character! If I wanted to play a Shaper, I'd play a Shaper and load up on Astral Construct stuff. If I wanted to play a Telepath, I'd play a Telepath and rock out Psionic Charm and Psionic Dominate. I do not want to play those classes. So stop badgering me about the wrong character choices I'm not even making.

Dude, I am not badgering you. I am not even attacking you. I am simply mentioning a thought.

You have cut down every one of my ideas in favor of optimizing my idea to the extreme. That is both super optimization AND OP. I can differentiate, I suggested something and you but it down in favor of "This would be a better option" all I am saying is no, maybe its not and maybe you have to make a reason its not. You want spells and out of combat utility and still be effective in combat while not overshadowing everyone. Every one of my suggestions had that and you cut down each of them.

I am just trying to help, you dont need to be antagonistic to me in return

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make a (Whisper) Gnome Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Beguiler 9+, get Heighten Spell, Earth Spell, Versatile Spellcaster, Residual Magic, and Mindsight. The Beguiler spell list is a toolbox with a solution to just about any out-of-combat challenge you'll run into, you'll have tons of skill points and most of the class skills of a Rogue and a Wizard, and you'll be able to do a variety of things in combat without overshadowing the rest of the party.

[Nettlekid]

In that case, I think you'll enjoy the sorcerous diplomancer the most.

Yeah, the Unseen Seer is pretty appealing. That one, the Illusionist, and the Eternal Blade are the ones ranking highest on my list right now. Though honestly I'm kind of curious about Void Disciple now.


Dude, I am not badgering you. I am not even attacking you. I am simply mentioning a thought.

You have cut down every one of my ideas in favor of optimizing my idea to the extreme. That is both super optimization AND OP. I can differentiate, I suggested something and you but it down in favor of "This would be a better option" all I am saying is no, maybe its not and maybe you have to make a reason its not. You want spells and out of combat utility and still be effective in combat while not overshadowing everyone. Every one of my suggestions had that and you cut down each of them.

I am just trying to help, you dont need to be antagonistic to me in return

What do you mean "every one of [your] ideas"? Plural? You suggested one. Psion/Metamind. And I said no because it had the potential to be too overpowered, because I built a couple to look at and decided that Metamind isn't worth it unless you really pump that infinite PP for all it's worth. A Psion that goes Metamind is a Psion who appreciates the power of the mind to the fullest, and one who would want to reshape the world with a thought. A lot of cool Psion cliches are like that. I build a Time and Space Ardent/Metamind, and that was very strong, so I didn't want to go that way.

And you absolutely are badgering/attacking. You're telling me I shouldn't play in my friend's campaign because I have a problem with optimizing to the utmost, but if you look through any part of this thread that doesn't have to do with your posts you'll see that isn't true. Look at my conversations with Phelix-Mu or DeAnno to see my thoughts on making a non-god-tier character the best it can be. That's what's helpful. Not stubbornly invalidating my dismissal of your singular suggestion.


Make a (Whisper) Gnome Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Beguiler 9+, get Heighten Spell, Earth Spell, Versatile Spellcaster, Residual Magic, and Mindsight. The Beguiler spell list is a toolbox with a solution to just about any out-of-combat challenge you'll run into, you'll have tons of skill points and most of the class skills of a Rogue and a Wizard, and you'll be able to do a variety of things in combat without overshadowing the rest of the party.

That is a very standard, tried-and-true Beguiler set. My only hesitations are that Gnome Wizards synergize better with illusion spells than Gnome Beguilers do due to the racial substitution levels, and I also don't want to fall back on Shadow Illusion for the answer to every problem even though that's what the Shadowcraft Mage is known for. It feels like it doesn't count as being illusions when you're using it to blast. But you're right, that's a good list of spells and it offers a good selection of skills. (Also truthfully I'm just not crazy about Gnomes. I think they look dumb.)

[dascarletm]

A prestige class I've always wanted to play was a sandshaper.

You should go:

Sorcerer 10/Sandshaper 10.

Just use mostly your sandshaping class features to solve problems.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That is a very standard, tried-and-true Beguiler set. My only hesitations are that Gnome Wizards synergize better with illusion spells than Gnome Beguilers do due to the racial substitution levels, and I also don't want to fall back on Shadow Illusion for the answer to every problem even though that's what the Shadowcraft Mage is known for. It feels like it doesn't count as being illusions when you're using it to blast. But you're right, that's a good list of spells and it offers a good selection of skills. (Also truthfully I'm just not crazy about Gnomes. I think they look dumb.)

Well then, a (Whisper) Gnome Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Mindbender 1/ whatever, with Master Spellthief and Versatile Spellcaster. You'll be able to put all ten UM levels toward Wizard spellcasting, so at 20th level you'll cast as a Wizard 18 and Beguiler 8, though you can put more toward Beguiler if you want, especially in the epic levels. You'll add your levels of spellcasting capability (the level that determines spells/day) in each class, plus your Spellthief level, plus your Arcane Spell Power bonus from UM, to determine your caster level for all your spells. For example, at level 21 you'll have a caster level of 31, and if you use Earth Spell to cast a Heightened Silent Image from a 9th level spell slot it will be at a caster level of 40. Versatile Spellcaster will allow you to spend two Beguiler slots of the same level to cast any spell you know, including Wizard spells you've learned, of one level higher. Sadly you won't be able to take Able Learner with this build, unless you go something like Human Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Stoneblessed 3/ Shadowcraft Mage, but you'll miss out on all the Gnome Wizard goodies.

You can just skip Shadowcraft Mage and go Human Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Mindbender 1/ whatever, still using Master Spellthief and Versatile Spellcaster, and of course Able Learner. You could skip Spellthief and instead go Illumian (Krau/anything) Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Mindbender 1/ Wizard 1/ whatever, still get Able Learner since Illuminas are Humanoid (Human), get Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler to add all ten UM levels to Wizard casting, and even include Spontaneous Divination. At level 20 that has Beguiler 8 casting at a caster level of 18, and Wizard 19 casting at a caster level of 24.

[Nettlekid]

Well then, a (Whisper) Gnome Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Mindbender 1/ whatever, with Master Spellthief and Versatile Spellcaster. You'll be able to put all ten UM levels toward Wizard spellcasting, so at 20th level you'll cast as a Wizard 18 and Beguiler 8, though you can put more toward Beguiler if you want, especially in the epic levels. You'll add your levels of spellcasting capability (the level that determines spells/day) in each class, plus your Spellthief level, plus your Arcane Spell Power bonus from UM, to determine your caster level for all your spells. For example, at level 21 you'll have a caster level of 31, and if you use Earth Spell to cast a Heightened Silent Image from a 9th level spell slot it will be at a caster level of 40. Versatile Spellcaster will allow you to spend two Beguiler slots of the same level to cast any spell you know, including Wizard spells you've learned, of one level higher. Sadly you won't be able to take Able Learner with this build, unless you go something like Human Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Stoneblessed 3/ Shadowcraft Mage, but you'll miss out on all the Gnome Wizard goodies.

You can just skip Shadowcraft Mage and go Human Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Mindbender 1/ whatever, still using Master Spellthief and Versatile Spellcaster, and of course Able Learner. You could skip Spellthief and instead go Illumian (Krau/anything) Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Mindbender 1/ Wizard 1/ whatever, still get Able Learner since Illuminas are Humanoid (Human), get Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler to add all ten UM levels to Wizard casting, and even include Spontaneous Divination. At level 20 that has Beguiler 8 casting at a caster level of 18, and Wizard 19 casting at a caster level of 24.

Oh, I rather like the sound of that second build. One thought of mine was that I could use Earth Spell to increase the CL of my Illusion spells and, along with Insidious Magic, make it harder to detect them. And I had indeed made an Ultimate Magus build like that before, but I hadn't really thought about the CL implications, nor had I introduced Spellthief into the mix. If I do what you suggested in the last build but shift two CL increases from Wizard to Beguiler, I get 5th level spell slots. I can use Practical Metamagic: Persistant and those slots to fuel some Persisted Wizard spells, and thanks to Master Spellthief the high CL of both classes means that even the lower level Beguiler spells like Silent Image and Major Image will be near impossible for True Seeing to penetrate.
With a build of Beguiler 1/Spellthief 1/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 10/Wizard 2/Shadow Adept 1/Mindbender 1/Wizard-Progressing-PrC 2 (21st level build) that ends up with Wizard 17, Beguiler 10, CL 36 for both, right (17+4 Wiz+10+4 Beg+1 St)? Which means anyone using True Seeing would have to roll a 11+36=47 on their CL check. A CL 27 character would only succeed on a 20. That's promising.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Oh, I rather like the sound of that second build. One thought of mine was that I could use Earth Spell to increase the CL of my Illusion spells and, along with Insidious Magic, make it harder to detect them. And I had indeed made an Ultimate Magus build like that before, but I hadn't really thought about the CL implications, nor had I introduced Spellthief into the mix. If I do what you suggested in the last build but shift two CL increases from Wizard to Beguiler, I get 5th level spell slots. I can use Practical Metamagic: Persistant and those slots to fuel some Persisted Wizard spells, and thanks to Master Spellthief the high CL of both classes means that even the lower level Beguiler spells like Silent Image and Major Image will be near impossible for True Seeing to penetrate.
With a build of Beguiler 1/Spellthief 1/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 10/Wizard 2/Shadow Adept 1/Mindbender 1/Wizard-Progressing-PrC 2 (21st level build) that ends up with Wizard 17, Beguiler 10, CL 36 for both, right (17+4 Wiz+10+4 Beg+1 St)? Which means anyone using True Seeing would have to roll a 11+36=47 on their CL check. A CL 27 character would only succeed on a 20. That's promising.

Your caster level is your spellcaster level (which determines spells/day) in each class (Wizard 17, Beguiler 10) plus your Spellthief level (1), and then any other bonuses to your caster level (Arcane Spell Power +4) are added on afterward. So your caster level will be 32, plus any items you get that boost it (Orange Ioun Stone, Ring of Arcane Might) or feats (Earth Spell).

[Nettlekid]

Your caster level is your spellcaster level (which determines spells/day) in each class (Wizard 17, Beguiler 10) plus your Spellthief level (1), and then any other bonuses to your caster level (Arcane Spell Power +4) are added on afterward. So your caster level will be 32, plus any items you get that boost it (Orange Ioun Stone, Ring of Arcane Might) or feats (Earth Spell).

Ah, okay. Jeez, I can never keep track of when it means levels in a spellcasting class or caster level. Still good though. So does that mean that Practiced Spellcaster won't improve either my Beguiler or Wizard CL, since it could only be tacked on after the Master Spellthief boost which is higher than my HD?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ah, okay. Jeez, I can never keep track of when it means levels in a spellcasting class or caster level. Still good though. So does that mean that Practiced Spellcaster won't improve either my Beguiler or Wizard CL, since it could only be tacked on after the Master Spellthief boost which is higher than my HD?

That's correct, Master Spellthief replaces your current caster level with the total it comes up with, so either you add Practiced Spellcaster beforehand and the bonus doesn't even get counted or you try to add it afterward and your caster level is already higher than your HD.

[aleucard]

My Saxton Hale idea was ignored. :smallsigh:

Anyway, another option would be Shadowcraft Mage on an Illusionist Schizophrenic or something similar. You're officially not the only one incapable of telling reality from fiction, especially since you come with high enough SL slots to make something 100% real if you really need to. For bonus points, you are now the ultimate utility and minion caster, especially if you make use of Illusions' generally-long Duration in comparison to the normal versions, AND you don't have to worry about this 'Maximum HD' bollocks. :smallredface: If things go completely tits-up, you can just form a gigantic blob of your favorite flesh-melting Ooze on top of your opponents and be done with it. The fact that the PrC itself is only 5 levels long means you can fit an entirely separate PrC into the mix also. Maybe one of the Sneaky Gish ones if you want to up the utility?

EDIT: I have a thought. Just how much does the benefit of those extra spells known affect a Wizard in comparison to a Sorcerer if both take this PrC? In a very large amount of ways, this multiplies the utility of even a minimal number of spells to equal if not exceed some entire categories of spells, several of which show up in the top spots of the entire library of 3.5. Being able to do those 'for real' wouldn't really amount to much in this instance. Sure, there's things that Semi-real Illusions just simply can't cover in any circumstance, but the number and quality of those is limited.

[Immabozo]

And you absolutely are badgering/attacking. You're telling me I shouldn't play in my friend's campaign because I have a problem with optimizing to the utmost, but if you look through any part of this thread that doesn't have to do with your posts you'll see that isn't true. Look at my conversations with Phelix-Mu or DeAnno to see my thoughts on making a non-god-tier character the best it can be. That's what's helpful. Not stubbornly invalidating my dismissal of your singular suggestion.

I merely brought up that it may be a bad fit, play style wise. I never attacked you or antagonized you. I have no power to ban you from a game if I wanted to.

But good luck with your character, i'm done with this thread

EDIT: I did say everyONE of my ideas :smalltongue:

[Segev]

If you go spellcaster, I recommend looking carefully at the feat Master Staff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#masterStaff). Any staff you create, you can expend your spell slots to power spells out of.

Build yourself an archive staff with every single spell in it costing 50 charges to cast. The formula for the highest level spell becomes (spell level)x(caster level)x15, with the second-highest level spell being at 75% of that (spell level)x(caster level)x11.25, and all others at half the first one (spell level)x(caster level)x8.5.

Make CL 17 (as you're going to have 9th level spells in here), and the formulae are (spell level)x255, (spell level)x191.25, and (spell level)x144.5.

This is not too much more expensive than adding a spell to a spellbook, and you basically spontaneously cast every spell in this staff.

Note, too, that these are market values; you're crafting it, so halve the costs again (but add exp costs).

Just be careful to never use a spell from it by expending charges! (Maybe you should put a 0th level spell in it that uses 49 charges and expend it, so it's only got 1 charge left and you literally can't use any of the spells by expending charges anymore.)

[Nettlekid]

If you go spellcaster, I recommend looking carefully at the feat Master Staff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#masterStaff). Any staff you create, you can expend your spell slots to power spells out of.

Build yourself an archive staff with every single spell in it costing 50 charges to cast. The formula for the highest level spell becomes (spell level)x(caster level)x15, with the second-highest level spell being at 75% of that (spell level)x(caster level)x11.25, and all others at half the first one (spell level)x(caster level)x8.5.

Make CL 17 (as you're going to have 9th level spells in here), and the formulae are (spell level)x255, (spell level)x191.25, and (spell level)x144.5.

This is not too much more expensive than adding a spell to a spellbook, and you basically spontaneously cast every spell in this staff.

Note, too, that these are market values; you're crafting it, so halve the costs again (but add exp costs).

Just be careful to never use a spell from it by expending charges! (Maybe you should put a 0th level spell in it that uses 49 charges and expend it, so it's only got 1 charge left and you literally can't use any of the spells by expending charges anymore.)

Unfortunately Complete Arcane upped the requirements to 30 ranks in Spellcraft, which I won't have for a long time. I had considered something similar using Wand Surge and Persistent Unfettered Heroism, but realized that by that point I didn't even have to be a spellcaster and could get by with just having good UMD. Using my own spell slots would certainly balance it, but like I said, I don't meet the prereqs for that feat.