3.5 Speaking, Verbal Components, and Inability to Breathe

[Phelix-Mu]

Hi All,

In another thread, the issue of underwater spellcasting came up. People seemed to be of the opinion that the warforged caster couldn't cast underwater because it couldn't breathe, and therefor couldn't speak, and therefor couldn't cast spells with verbal components.

Now, I know a bunch of us have probably had to houserule for this or similar situations. But do the actual rules say nothing on the matter of whether one needs to be able to breathe in order to use verbal components? What about underwater creatures that cast spells? What about creatures that don't need to breathe that cast spells? I'm not insane enough to think that the rules actually suggest how breathless creatures speak, but I'm inclined to think that it isn't through a faux larynx.

Anyway, it seemed an area of discussion that I hadn't read much on. I'm sure it's not new, but I'd like it if all you RAW heavyweights could enlighten me on any actual rules that I may have overlooked.

[Zaq]

PHB 174: "Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell)."

If you're underwater, and you're an air-breather, it's pretty clear that you cannot "speak in a strong voice." That seems unambiguous to me. The question is what happens if you're underwater, but you don't need to breathe. If you're capable of breathing water, I don't see why you couldn't "speak in a strong voice" underwater (this is heroic fantasy, after all, and aquatic creatures can speak to each other with no problem, I believe). But if you don't breathe at all . . . Hmm.

Do you let your warforged speak normally underwater? Can they communicate with their teammates underwater if they're not trying to cast a spell? That's the real crux of the issue. Just because you don't NEED to breathe doesn't necessarily mean that you don't use moving air to make sounds. You might not be absorbing oxygen through your lungs the way humans do, but you still need to make the air move somehow if you want to talk. Can you gag a warforged to stop them from speaking? (Arguably, you can gag a warforged to stop them from making verbal components, since the description of verbal components specifically calls out a gag, but that's probably an unintended consequence.)

[bjoern]

An air breather should be able to speak in a strong voice under water. Just talk like you would normally. However doing this will expend a lot (if not all) of the air in your lungs so I'd say that you would start drowning the next round probably.

[Red Fel]

I think I see where the logic breaks down. On land, an air-breathing creature can breathe, and therefore can speak, and can therefore cast spells. On land, a Warforged can speak, and therefore can cast spells. Underwater, an air-breathing creature cannot breathe, and therefore cannot speak, and therefore cannot cast spells. Underwater, a Warforged does not need to breathe, and therefore cannot speak, and therefore cannot cast spells.Yeah. The logic of the last one does not work.

If any creatures exist that are capable of underwater speech, then it follows that underwater speech is possible. If underwater speech is possible, then underwater spellcasting is possible. The only difference between the air-breather and the Warforged in this context is that, if the air-breather attempts to cast a spell, he will drown; the Warforged is in no such peril.

If we were to say that a Warforged cannot speak underwater because it does not breathe, then the Warforged should not be capable of speech at any time. Its inability to breathe is omnipresent; the water becomes irrelevant. Neither should any creature that does not breathe, such as a Lich or other intelligent Undead, or an intelligent Elemental. We know this is not the case - many creatures capable of speech do not need to breathe. So that's not a reason to limit spellcasting.

Yes, the construct type (or living construct subtype) is incredibly powerful. Yes, Warforged immunities are mindblowing. And yes, a Warforged can cast spells underwater that would require a verbal component, because the Warforged, not needing to breathe, is not prevented from speaking in a loud, clear voice.

[Fax Celestis]

Not being able to hear yourself also penalizes your ability to use verbal components. Water carries sound, but it distorts it when we're not accustomed to it. I think casting underwater should be fine, it just burns some of your held breath like any other action does, and you have the 20% failure chance from deafness.

[Red Fel]

Interestingly, PF offers a point of reference. With regard to aquatic terrain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/wilderness/terrain/aquatic-terrain), PF has this to say:
Casting spells while submerged can be difficult for those who cannot breathe underwater. A creature that cannot breathe water must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell underwater (this is in addition to the caster level check to successfully cast a fire spell underwater). Creatures that can breathe water are unaffected and can cast spells normally. Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.
It's not 3.5, but it's certainly a valid comparison.

[StoneCipher]

I feel that Aquan is a language you could speak underwater perfectly I'm not sure about others, however I know common would be quite difficult. But I've seen this discussed before and it came to the point where it's ultimately the DM's call on what penalties would be assessed.

Keep in mind, if someone's casting with verbal components and cannot breathe underwater normally, I'd imagine they would have to immediately surface since they would expend all that held air.

[Phelix-Mu]

I feel that Aquan is a language you could speak underwater perfectly I'm not sure about others, however I know common would be quite difficult. But I've seen this discussed before and it came to the point where it's ultimately the DM's call on what penalties would be assessed.

Keep in mind, if someone's casting with verbal components and cannot breathe underwater normally, I'd imagine they would have to immediately surface since they would expend all that held air.

Unfortunately, the designers were extremely undisciplined with language access, and Aquan isn't even close to omnipresent underwater (otherwise it would sub in for Common like Undercommon does in settings where the Underdark is a thing). This is further complicated by the fact that all of the original speakers of aquan lack lungs and likely lack voiceboxes as well (unclear with marids).

@Red Fel: Your reasoning is quite sound, in my mind. To me, lots of creatures in the game can speak in a manner that has no relation to breathing or air. There are a number of creatures that probably can't even force air through a membrane, as they lack that anatomy, but are still capable of speech. Thus, verbal components only are limited by your ability to speak. Any medium capable of transmitting sound waves should work, although those with a mouth, lungs and an airway will immediately be imperiled by having to open their mouth to speak (as someone has already noted).

@Fax Celestis: I feel your reasoning might break down a little bit when we consider other situations where breathing isn't an issue, but hearing is. Does the 20% failure also apply in high winds or persistent, loud noises (I honestly don't know)? I'd also minorly quibble that hearing things underwater is different, but it is often quite comprehensible (especially if expelling air isn't an issue...underwater speakers can make sounds that are pretty high-quality). Also problematic is that many creatures in D&D have hearing that also doesn't particularly rely on air, vibrating membranes, or auditory nerves.

Anyway, some excellent discussion so far. Thanks for contributing, one and all.:smallsmile:

[Red Fel]

@Fax Celestis: I feel your reasoning might break down a little bit when we consider other situations where breathing isn't an issue, but hearing is. Does the 20% failure also apply in high winds or persistent, loud noises (I honestly don't know)? I'd also minorly quibble that hearing things underwater is different, but it is often quite comprehensible (especially if expelling air isn't an issue...underwater speakers can make sounds that are pretty high-quality). Also problematic is that many creatures in D&D have hearing that also doesn't particularly rely on air, vibrating membranes, or auditory nerves.

Actually, Fax has an interesting point. If being underwater in fact deafens the character, or at least renders him unable to hear his own voice, you get this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#deafened):
A deafened character cannot hear. She takes a -4 penalty on initiative checks, automatically fails Listen checks, and has a 20% chance of spell failure when casting spells with verbal components. Characters who remain deafened for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

And in response to your question, high winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#winds) render Listen checks impossible.

[Hamste]

Not being able to hear yourself also penalizes your ability to use verbal components. Water carries sound, but it distorts it when we're not accustomed to it. I think casting underwater should be fine, it just burns some of your held breath like any other action does, and you have the 20% failure chance from deafness.

Actually there is no penalty on listen and move silently checks underwater, as far as I can tell you can hear just as well with no distortion under water as you can on land according to D&D rules.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Aquatic_Terrain

Under stealth and detection here

[Phelix-Mu]

Lol, if everyone is having fun, we can always expand the discussion to include earth glide, speech, breathing, and spellcasting. Hehe, I've always been impressed how little rules support earth glide gets (I suppose because it is primarily a trait of just a couple classic monsters, though one of the base classes can become that creature at high levels....).

[Red Fel]

Lol, if everyone is having fun, we can always expand the discussion to include earth glide, speech, breathing, and spellcasting. Hehe, I've always been impressed how little rules support earth glide gets (I suppose because it is primarily a trait of just a couple classic monsters, though one of the base classes can become that creature at high levels....).

I seem to recall at least one source observing that if you have to breathe, you need to start making drowning checks while using Earth Glide... But I don't remember the source.

[StoneCipher]

I think the main question is: What makes for a spell's verbal component? Does it have to be perfectly stated? Can you just mumble through it? Is it just the attempt to utter a certain phrase that counts?

Via the deafened condition, one would think that it would have to be perfectly stated, since when you are deaf you cannot regulate your voice as well thus giving you a 20% spell failure.

So, given that blanket you can apply that logic to any time where you'd be deaf unless otherwise noted.

By raw, however, there is no specific mention of what a verbal component actually is except speech. Nor does it mention that if your speech is impeded, you take penalties to casting spells. This leads us to the interesting situation where if your jaw happened to be ripped off, by RAW you would suffer no penalty to cast spells with verbal components.

So, with a glaring lack of a definition of the verbal component, it must be up to the DM to reason what consists of a penalty.

[dascarletm]

PHB 174: "Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell)."

If you're underwater, and you're an air-breather, it's pretty clear that you cannot "speak in a strong voice." That seems unambiguous to me. The question is what happens if you're underwater, but you don't need to breathe. If you're capable of breathing water, I don't see why you couldn't "speak in a strong voice" underwater (this is heroic fantasy, after all, and aquatic creatures can speak to each other with no problem, I believe). But if you don't breathe at all . . . Hmm.

Do you let your warforged speak normally underwater? Can they communicate with their teammates underwater if they're not trying to cast a spell? That's the real crux of the issue. Just because you don't NEED to breathe doesn't necessarily mean that you don't use moving air to make sounds. You might not be absorbing oxygen through your lungs the way humans do, but you still need to make the air move somehow if you want to talk. Can you gag a warforged to stop them from speaking? (Arguably, you can gag a warforged to stop them from making verbal components, since the description of verbal components specifically calls out a gag, but that's probably an unintended consequence.)

Who is to say warforged move air at all, They just need to make vibrations. The simplest method of talking would be a vibrating piece of metal, much like a speaker.

[Fax Celestis]

I think the main question is: What makes for a spell's verbal component? Does it have to be perfectly stated? Can you just mumble through it? Is it just the attempt to utter a certain phrase that counts?

Via the deafened condition, one would think that it would have to be perfectly stated, since when you are deaf you cannot regulate your voice as well thus giving you a 20% spell failure.

So, given that blanket you can apply that logic to any time where you'd be deaf unless otherwise noted.

By raw, however, there is no specific mention of what a verbal component actually is except speech. Nor does it mention that if your speech is impeded, you take penalties to casting spells. This leads us to the interesting situation where if your jaw happened to be ripped off, by RAW you would suffer no penalty to cast spells with verbal components.

So, with a glaring lack of a definition of the verbal component, it must be up to the DM to reason what consists of a penalty.

Orly?


Verbal (V)
A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance to spoil any spell with a verbal component that he or she tries to cast.

white text of posting +1

[StoneCipher]

That doesn't define if it has to be intelligible at all, however. I was just being silly with my lower jaw removal.

Strong voice could mean that you're drunk, slurring your shpellsh loudly and boorishly and they still come out fine.

[dascarletm]

That doesn't define if it has to be intelligible at all, however. I was just being silly with my lower jaw removal.

Strong voice could mean that you're drunk, slurring your shpellsh loudly and boorishly and they still come out fine.

(of something seen or heard) not soft or muted; clear or prominent.

[Gwendol]

Hi All,

In another thread, the issue of underwater spellcasting came up. People seemed to be of the opinion that the warforged caster couldn't cast underwater because it couldn't breathe, and therefor couldn't speak, and therefor couldn't cast spells with verbal components.

Now, I know a bunch of us have probably had to houserule for this or similar situations. But do the actual rules say nothing on the matter of whether one needs to be able to breathe in order to use verbal components? What about underwater creatures that cast spells? What about creatures that don't need to breathe that cast spells? I'm not insane enough to think that the rules actually suggest how breathless creatures speak, but I'm inclined to think that it isn't through a faux larynx.

Anyway, it seemed an area of discussion that I hadn't read much on. I'm sure it's not new, but I'd like it if all you RAW heavyweights could enlighten me on any actual rules that I may have overlooked.

You need to be able to speak to cast spells with a verbal component. In general, that means that a creature unable to breath underwater will not be able to cast a spell. Creatures with other means of creating sound will likely be unaffected.
Please see the SRD:

Pearl of the Sirines

This normal-seeming pearl is beautiful and worth at least 1,000 gp on that basis alone. If it is clasped firmly in hand or held to the breast while the possessor attempts actions related to the pearl’s powers, she understands and is able to employ the item.

The pearl enables its possessor to breathe in water as if she were in clean, fresh air. Her swim speed is 60 feet, and she can cast spells and act underwater without hindrance.

Moderate abjuration and transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Wondrous Item, freedom of movement, water breathing; Price 15,300 gp.

[StoneCipher]

So then, we have a reference that verbal components are (as expected) hindered in some way underwater. The next question is, by how much?

I feel that going back to the deafened condition, it would follow that since you cannot speak "in a strong voice" reliably, that you could apply this same penalty to underwater casting for the same reason. Perhaps even going farther to add more of a penalty for somatic components also being harder.

So if you really think about it, spellcasting underwater is a near death sentence for anyone who doesn't take the proper precautions. You'll expend all or most of your air in one casting, and you're constantly trying to fight your buoyancy for holding that air within you.

[Gwendol]

Not to mention that manipulation of some material components can become tricky.

[Bronk]

In another thread, the issue of underwater spellcasting came up. People seemed to be of the opinion that the warforged caster couldn't cast underwater because it couldn't breathe, and therefor couldn't speak, and therefor couldn't cast spells with verbal components.


I remember reading an Eberron novel called 'Thieves of Blood' that at one point featured a specially made aquatic warforged. I don't think I have access to the book anymore, but it might have mentioned something about it in there.

[StoneCipher]

Not to mention that manipulation of some material components can become tricky.

That makes sense as any powders would likely not work.

[Frostthehero]

Ever tried speaking underwater? It's possible, but difficult. I would give an AIR BREATHING character a 50% failure chance underwater, as well as a loss of breath (although I imagine that if you are doing an underwater adventure, you are able to breath underwater for some reason).

Someone brought up a warforged. Let me explain something. The reason a human cannot speak underwater is that their lungs would fill with air. The sounds waves will still bounce through the water, and you can still hear things. Warforged, on the other hand, do not have lungs, meaning that the medium through which they are speaking does not affect their speech, other then the fact that the sound will travel faster and further the denser the medium gets. Likewise, I would imagine that a warforged could even cast through a gag, because once again their manner of speech does not require manipulation of the mouth or expulsion of air.

[Bronk]

Warforged, on the other hand, do not have lungs...

Do you happen to have a quote for what they do have then? So far it seems like details are sparse, and it is left to the imagination of the DM and the Player as to how speech works for each individual warforged. From what I can tell, warforged can be made in all kinds of forms, from all sorts of materials, with all sorts of add ons. You could imagine warforged that talk using a speaker, a bellows system, musical reeds, or straight up magic, some of which might work better than others underwater.

I totally agree with the difficulty of a normal person talking underwater. Sometimes you can sort of hear what is being said, but even shouting you mostly just hear bubbles.