Picturing strength?

[jedipotter]

So what does strength look like? D&D has no rules for descriptions. You can make a character look however you want them to look. But strength is sort of obvious. Or should it not be?

Last weekend we did 80's movie night, watching some Arnold Schwarzenegger classics. The think that got pointed out is how a lot of times Arnold would have his character try to blend in like a regular joe to hide from the bad guys. You know, except the character still has Arnold s 6'2'' massive build. But still Arnold would put on a coat and hat and 'fool the bad guys'. As if it would be hard to spot Arnold in a crowd. The way everyone notices his character in Twins.

So that got us talking. Would a high strength character have a large, muscular build? Are they going to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Steve Austin, Cory Everson or Kim Baum? Could you have a strength of 18 and look like Harry Potter or Hermione Granger?

Should high strength characters have a bonus/penalty to skills? Like if someone who looks just like Terry ''Hulk'' Hogan shows up to ''clean the dungeon with a mop(aka sneak in)'', should they get a penalty? Though on the other hand if they come in with a big hammer and say they are going to fix some stonework, is that a bonus?


Should a character be able to get away with looking like Hermione Granger or Han Solo and still have a strength score of 20? Should you not be able to tell a strong person just by looking at them?

And what about other races. Like elves? Do elves with strengths of 15+ have muscular builds? Or do even strength 20 elves look like Legolious and Arwin?

[Flickerdart]

If you look at professional athletes, most of them are pretty slim, but they're still pretty damn strong. Arnold is a bodybuilder, of course he's going to look like a truck.

[Spindrift]

Strength in the real world isn't really the same as game strength, you can have really awesome muscles for lifting things, but be a lot less good at pushing things.
It depends on wich muscles you train.
I'd say ultimately just let players decide how much of a hulking giant they want to be, within reason.
If a character is very strong and exceedingly dextrous it could be hard to explain why they have to look like a bodybuilder AND a gymnast.

[Flickerdart]

very strong... bodybuilder
Go look at pictures of the strongest men in the world. They look nothing like bodybuilders.

[ComaVision]

Flickerdart hit the nail on the head. Muscle size isn't a direct correlation to muscle strength. As a weight lifter, I can tell you that training for size is much different than training for strength.

"you can have really awesome muscles for lifting things, but be a lot less good at pushing things." is a completely ridiculous statement unless you're talking about someone that doesn't train all their muscles.

[Spindrift]

Go look at pictures of the strongest men in the world. They look nothing like bodybuilders.

I didn't mean to imply that strength equals bodybuilder, on the whole bodybuilders have always seemed more like performers to me. I don't really equate them with anything except an unhealthy lifestyle and steroid abuse.

I was trying to point out that if strength had to be tied to looking like a bodybuilder, it'd be really weird when you also try to convey agility, as bodybuilders aren't known for their catlike reflexes. It'd be silly.

[Chronos]

In my experience, while you could have a scrawny-looking strong guy, people don't usually describe their characters that way. Most often, they don't describe them in that much detail at all, and everyone at the table just assumes that the barbarian looks big and beefy.

[TheIronGolem]

High-STR characters should get bonuses to STR-based skills. And they do.

High-STR characters should not incur penalties to non-STR-based skills. And they don't.

The ability is called Strength, and not Size, for a reason.

[Spindrift]

In my experience, while you could have a scrawny-looking strong guy, people don't usually describe their characters that way. Most often, they don't describe them in that much detail at all, and everyone at the table just assumes that the barbarian looks big and beefy.

In my experience that may go for male characters, but if you play a female character with the same class and describe her as strong, people won't see her the same way as often.
If i want to play a large beefy barbarian woman, chances are that just saying my character is strong will not get the point across, as some people will want to picture her being the idealised attractive norm often seen in popular media (maybe even in high heels...).
In the end giving a detailed character description is the best way to avoid people assuming stereotypes if you're not aiming to play said stereotype.

[Flickerdart]

(maybe even in high heels...
High heels started out as riding boots that helped the wearer "lock" into stirrups, and certain forms are suitable wear if your warrior is mounted. :smallamused:

[jedipotter]

"you can have really awesome muscles for lifting things, but be a lot less good at pushing things." is a completely ridiculous statement unless you're talking about someone that doesn't train all their muscles.

Ok, lets not get into body-builder bashing. A body-builder is still a strong person. They don't have air in their bodies to make it look like they have muscles right?

But lets talk about athletes then. Would a woman with a strength of 18 look like Gina Carano or Aneta Florczyk(Google her ''destroy a fryingpan''). Does a man with 18 strength look like Žydrūnas Savickas(Google him) or Brian Shaw?

How about that 18 strength elf, do they look like Alison Stokke or Hermine Granger? They look like Mountain from Game of Thrones(aka Hafþór Júlíus “Thor” Björnsson) or Harry Potter?

[TheIronGolem]

They look like whatever their player says they look like. Some strong people are big and beefy, others are compact and wiry.

[Morty]

Attributes are just numbers, nothing more. You shouldn't lock yourself into a particular description based on them.

[Vhaidara]

What IronGolem said.

The only Str related houserule my group tends to run with is conditionally allowing Str to Intimidate instead of Cha. However, if you fail it goes twice as badly as usual, since you just threatened to break them in half without scaring them.

Also, the Mountain is an 18 Str human with the Jotunbrud feat (powerful build - oversized weapons)

[ComaVision]

They look like whatever their player says they look like. Some strong people are big and beefy, others are compact and wiry.


Attributes are just numbers, nothing more. You shouldn't lock yourself into a particular description based on them.

Don't tell people how to roleplay. Don't tell them what they look like. If it doesn't have severe gameplay effect, then let the players have creative freedom.

EDIT: I also agree The Mountain is an 18 strength human. The actor is actually the 3rd strongest man in the world (as per international strongman competitions).

[jedipotter]

In my experience that may go for male characters, but if you play a female character with the same class and describe her as strong, people won't see her the same way as often.


Way, way, way too true.

When I picture Vanda the barbarian I'm thinking more Gina Carano and not Megan Fox in a fur bikini. Or Darana the fighter as being more Jill Mills then Kate Upton.

[Flickerdart]

EDIT: I also agree The Mountain is an 18 strength human. The actor is actually the 3rd strongest man in the world (as per international strongman competitions).
18 STR isn't exceptional - statistically, that's one in every 216 people. The only other person we see in Westeros that matches up to Gregor Clegane is Jon Umber. Clegane is at least a Strength Prodigy (+2 STR for 20) and might even have some other template that boosts his STR.

[Spindrift]

I agree with the above, let people choose what their characters look like, it's their character after all.
It is escapist fantasy after all, and cosmetic issues won't unbalance anyone's game unless you decide to make them an issue.

[ComaVision]

18 STR isn't exceptional - statistically, that's one in every 216 people. The only other person we see in Westeros that matches up to Gregor Clegane is Jon Umber. Clegane is at least a Strength Prodigy (+2 STR for 20) and might even have some other template that boosts his STR.

Good call. I was just going with the assumption that 18 was the limit of a human but it certainly makes sense that he would be above that.

[daremetoidareyo]

Flickerdart hit the nail on the head. Muscle size isn't a direct correlation to muscle strength. As a weight lifter, I can tell you that training for size is much different than training for strength.

"you can have really awesome muscles for lifting things, but be a lot less good at pushing things." is a completely ridiculous statement unless you're talking about someone that doesn't train all their muscles.

I worked a summer on a fishing boat. We would beach the boat, pull the net, push the boat back off the shore. One of the guys I worked with, Tony, was built like a Greek hero. I look like joe average. Tony could hoist things and pull the net in fine. But when it came to push that boat off the sandbar, he was worthless. I never expected to come away from this weird adhoc strength contest superior to him, but He probably just trained his glamour muscles, but he didn't have anything after a little burst of power, while I had been working in mud, with a backpack on, for years previous on research jobs. Maybe self knowledge of the mechanics comes into play as well, so perhaps he wasn't able to intuit how to use his strength most effectively.

[Vhaidara]

18 STR isn't exceptional - statistically, that's one in every 216 people. The only other person we see in Westeros that matches up to Gregor Clegane is Jon Umber. Clegane is at least a Strength Prodigy (+2 STR for 20) and might even have some other template that boosts his STR.

Well, the other theory I've seen scraps Jotunbrud and puts him as a refluffed Half-Giant (or even half-ogre)

[dascarletm]

I worked a summer on a fishing boat. We would beach the boat, pull the net, push the boat back off the shore. One of the guys I worked with, Tony, was built like a Greek hero. I look like joe average. Tony could hoist things and pull the net in fine. But when it came to push that boat off the sandbar, he was worthless. I never expected to come away from this weird adhoc strength contest superior to him, but He probably just trained his glamour muscles, but he didn't have anything after a little burst of power, while I had been working in mud, with a backpack on, for years previous on research jobs. Maybe self knowledge of the mechanics comes into play as well, so perhaps he wasn't able to intuit how to use his strength most effectively.

Perhaps you, unlike Tony, were not skipping leg day.

[Fax Celestis]

Good call. I was just going with the assumption that 18 was the limit of a human but it certainly makes sense that he would be above that.

Maybe he's just got an 18 and a level of barbarian.

[Svata]

Also, the Mountain is an 18 Str human with the Jotunbrud feat (powerful build - oversized weapons)

I thought it was a enomous flying snail. Not the same one. I know.

[Flickerdart]

Maybe he's just got an 18 and a level of barbarian.
Fighter 2/Stoneblessed 3/Barbarian 1 with Mountain Rage? I could see it.

[jedipotter]

I agree with the above, let people choose what their characters look like, it's their character after all.
It is escapist fantasy after all, and cosmetic issues won't unbalance anyone's game unless you decide to make them an issue.


So everyone is in agreement, you can have a strength 18 character that looks like Hermine Granger. And your 20 barbarian can look like Johna Hill or any of the Big Bag theory guys. So someone that looks like Sheldon Lee Cooper can have a 20 strength.

So the next question is....can they use it to fool anyone?

Can our ''Hermine Granger look alike character with strength of 18'' walk into a secure area as a scribe, and then suddenly attack and do her massive damage? Can our Sheldon Lee Cooper look alike do the same?

Should the guards be fooled by a character's appearance? Does this only work when it is in favor of the player?

[The Insanity]

One of my player's old characters was a super-model looking female. Her father was a beefy, over 10 ft. tall dude. Guess which one had the higher Strength.

[Flickerdart]

Should the guards be fooled by a character's appearance?
There's a skill for that. It's called Disguise, is Charisma-based, and is completely unaffected by your Strength score.

[dascarletm]

One of my player's old characters was a super-model looking female. Her father was a beefy, over 10 ft. tall dude. Guess which one had the higher Strength.

TRICK QUESTION!

They were ghosts and both had - strength.

do I win?

[Fax Celestis]

Fighter 2/Stoneblessed 3/Barbarian 1 with Mountain Rage? I could see it.

Yeah, though I guess now

he's got the necropolitan template.

[dascarletm]

Yeah, though I guess now

he's got the necropolitan template.

Dang it! Why do i compulsively click all spoilers.

:smallfrown:

[Spindrift]

If people start playing superpowered twigs and expecting to get roleplaying advantages from cosmetic choices, then let them know that they should also expect to be tricked by powerhouse grannies.

Alternately just let everyone sense strength levels like they sense powerlevels in dragonball Z

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, though I guess now

he's got the necropolitan template.
I'd say some other kind of undead, given that not having a head doesn't hinder him in the slightest.

[Fax Celestis]

Dang it! Why do i compulsively click all spoilers.

:smallfrown:

I dunno, I could be wrong anyway. It's not overtly stated.

I'd say some other kind of undead, given that not having a head doesn't hinder him in the slightest.

Maybe he's a necropolitan lumi now.

[jedipotter]

There's a skill for that. It's called Disguise, is Charisma-based, and is completely unaffected by your Strength score.

Sure, sure, sure....for the boring play-the-game-by-the-rulebook people. I know that is the answer for way too many gamers.

Steve Austin, who is huge, has lots of ranks in disguise and bluff, so he can convince a guard that he is ''Herman the tea guy'' if he rolls good(or is super optimized to ''never not make it). And this is great ''by the book and all''.

And if players did just play the game like good little book zombie-robots, this would not even be a question. Because appearance in D&D does not matter by the rules. You could describe your character as ''I giant taco that pops ice cream'' and everyone in the world must just act like that is normal.


Right up to the point when the player wants to abuse this loop hole. With the Harmonie Granger 18 strength character. They want the D&D world to treat them like the ''poor little weak girl who can't open a jar of pickles'' so they can get an advantage....and then ''surprise'' attack and do tons of damage or break out or whatever feat of strength they want to do.

[Morty]

Is people not realizing that a PC has 18 strength honestly such a big deal? :smallconfused: It's not like you can tell any other attribute just by looking at someone, nor can you tell whether that wrinkled, bald old man is a 20th level Swordsage.

[Fax Celestis]

Sure, sure, sure....for the boring play-the-game-by-the-rulebook people. I know that is the answer for way too many gamers.

...what else would the rulebook be for, then, if not to tell you how to play?

[Flickerdart]

Sure, sure, sure....for the boring play-the-game-by-the-rulebook people. I know that is the answer for way too many gamers.

Steve Austin, who is huge, has lots of ranks in disguise and bluff, so he can convince a guard that he is ''Herman the tea guy'' if he rolls good(or is super optimized to ''never not make it). And this is great ''by the book and all''.
Why do you have a problem with a character who's good at lying being able to lie convincingly?


Right up to the point when the player wants to abuse this loop hole. With the Harmonie Granger 18 strength character. They want the D&D world to treat them like the ''poor little weak girl who can't open a jar of pickles'' so they can get an advantage....and then ''surprise'' attack and do tons of damage or break out or whatever feat of strength they want to do.
Wow yeah because it's totally never happened in any story ever told that someone conceals their strength to gain an advantage of surprise. D&D is so special in this regard.

[Svata]

Sure, sure, sure....for the boring play-the-game-by-the-rulebook people. I know that is the answer for way too many gamers.

Yeah, how dare you expect the rulebook to tell you the rules? What are you, mad?


And if players did just play the game like good little book zombie-robots, this would not even be a question.

Oh hai ad hominem.

[Spindrift]

If you're going to ignore the rulebook you may as well homebrew new rules for those situations, otherwise you're just stripping away rules and then saying there's an issue with the rules.
Disguise is there for a reason, does it perfectly mirror reality? ofc not, it's a game, not a real life simulator.

[Fax Celestis]

I keep getting the feeling that jedipotter would be much happier with Amber than D&D.

[Flickerdart]

I keep getting the feeling that jedipotter would be much happier with Amber than D&D.
Too much player agency.

[Spindrift]

I keep getting the feeling that jedipotter would be much happier with Amber than D&D.

Maybe he should just start posts asking people to help him write extra homebrew for his games. It might be more productive.(for him at least)

[Chronos]

Yeah, if someone who looks like Ahnuld wants to impersonate an accountant, they need to roll a Disguise skill check. If someone who looks like Sheldon Cooper wants to impersonate an accountant, they also need to roll a Disguise skill check.

And if you're talking about just trying to look less threatening, rather than trying to look like anyone in particular, then looking like Sheldon Cooper is likely to backfire, because people are likely to think you're a wizard instead, and so find you even more threatening.

[Morty]

I'd also like to point out that a level 10 character with 14 strength is going to hit you harder than a level 1 character with 18 strength, anyway - but you might not be able to tell them apart at first glance, unless they're decked out in obvious magic gear.

[Fax Celestis]

I'd also like to point out that a level 10 character with 14 strength is going to hit you harder than a level 1 character with 18 strength, anyway - but you might not be able to tell them apart at first glance, unless they're decked out in obvious magic gear.

Even then, they might just be rich!

[Vhaidara]

Sure, sure, sure....for the boring play-the-game-by-the-rulebook people. I know that is the answer for way too many gamers.

Steve Austin, who is huge, has lots of ranks in disguise and bluff, so he can convince a guard that he is ''Herman the tea guy'' if he rolls good(or is super optimized to ''never not make it). And this is great ''by the book and all''.

And if players did just play the game like good little book zombie-robots, this would not even be a question. Because appearance in D&D does not matter by the rules. You could describe your character as ''I giant taco that pops ice cream'' and everyone in the world must just act like that is normal.


Right up to the point when the player wants to abuse this loop hole. With the Harmonie Granger 18 strength character. They want the D&D world to treat them like the ''poor little weak girl who can't open a jar of pickles'' so they can get an advantage....and then ''surprise'' attack and do tons of damage or break out or whatever feat of strength they want to do.

And we were just starting to have a civil discussion.

1. If you have the Bluff skill to go with it, sure, you can pass yourself off as not being very strong.
2. Consider every other martial arts movie ever. How often is the martial artist underestimated because he's a scrawny Asian dude and the opponent is a brick wall?

[jedipotter]

Is people not realizing that a PC has 18 strength honestly such a big deal? :smallconfused:

Well, you have two tied up trouble makers:

1.Hermonie Granger

2.Riddick

So who are you going to watch if you could only watch one.......your going to pick huge, giant Riddick. Riddick is a huge mountain of a man with great strength....you know he can break them ropes if he tries.

On the other hand, you know that Hermonie can't even open a jar of pickles. there is no way a young girl like her can perform any feat of strength. She could not break out of twine or even ribbons....


But everyone is going to go with ''a character can look like anything and have a strength of anything''?

Guess I'll have to add another house rule.....the higher the strength of your character, the bigger and more muscular your character is to the NPC's world.

[Threadnaught]

When I picture Vanda the barbarian I'm thinking more Gina Carano and not Megan Fox in a fur bikini. Or Darana the fighter as being more Jill Mills then Kate Upton.

I dunno, I have a very easy time believing Fox had received a club to the face. :smallamused:

She also has the body of an athlete, to me. Either Gymnast or Sprinter, booyah.


*snip*

Sure, sure, sure....for the boring play-the-game-by-the-rulebook people. I know that is the answer for way too many gamers.

this is great ''by the book and all''.

And if players did just play the game like good little book zombie-robots, this would not even be a question.

We get it, you hate games where you aren't in control of everything. That is to say, games with their own rules, or other players' involvement.

How is everyone else's refusal to introduce taxes to even out everyone's money, or seize properties of a player sent to jail, on a whim when playing the Banker in a game of Monopoly, or other similar scenarios... *breathes* Related to the strongest Human having a base Strength of 18 and being skilled enough to always succeed on a check, the same way most real world professionals also (almost) always succeed at their profession?


In the real world the strongest people can be slim like the most famous martial arts legend ever to have lived, to Arnie, to those fat-looking men who are in all the strongman contests. I say fat-looking, because they don't look particularly muscular to me, it kinda really does make them look fat to me... To me... To me.
Important phrase used a lot during this post. It means it's my opinion, I can't be wrong about my own thoughts and preferences.
So there's a lot of variance.

[jedipotter]

And we were just starting to have a civil discussion.

1. If you have the Bluff skill to go with it, sure, you can pass yourself off as not being very strong.


If Riddick, Thor or the Hulk was to sit down at a table with you and ask to ''open the pickle jar they can't open'', would you ever fall for that?

Even if Thor ''had a cloak on'', he would still he a tall, huge, broad shouldered man. He can't ''look like Loki'' no matter what his ranks in anything.

[Fax Celestis]

Well, you have two tied up trouble makers:

1.Hermonie Granger

2.Riddick

So who are you going to watch if you could only watch one.......your going to pick huge, giant Riddick. Riddick is a huge mountain of a man with great strength....you know he can break them ropes if he tries.

On the other hand, you know that Hermonie can't even open a jar of pickles. there is no way a young girl like her can perform any feat of strength. She could not break out of twine or even ribbons....


But everyone is going to go with ''a character can look like anything and have a strength of anything''?

Guess I'll have to add another house rule.....the higher the strength of your character, the bigger and more muscular your character is to the NPC's world.

Compare Arnold Schwarzenegger to Bruce Lee. Both are immensely powerful (Bruce Lee broke a bystander's arm when the man he punched staggered into him once, remember), but only one has muscles that make him look like a cloud.

[Spindrift]

Well, you have two tied up trouble makers:

1.Hermonie Granger

2.Riddick

So who are you going to watch if you could only watch one.......your going to pick huge, giant Riddick. Riddick is a huge mountain of a man with great strength....you know he can break them ropes if he tries.

On the other hand, you know that Hermonie can't even open a jar of pickles. there is no way a young girl like her can perform any feat of strength. She could not break out of twine or even ribbons....


But everyone is going to go with ''a character can look like anything and have a strength of anything''?

Guess I'll have to add another house rule.....the higher the strength of your character, the bigger and more muscular your character is to the NPC's world.

Hermione uses escape artist and sneak attacks you while you're watching riddick.
Or maybe hermione uses a psionic power, or any number of things, the game has plenty of variables and judging people by their looks isn't always going to work out the way you planned.

[Chronos]

Oh, and while your appearance is just fluff, so is your backstory, and the one can justify the other. Maybe you're the strongest person and the world but look like Summer Glau... but maybe it's because a long-distant ancestor was a powerful outsider, and the only relic left of that bloodline in you is that you're a lot stronger than you look. This is a fantasy world: Such things might not be outright common, but they're certainly not unheard-of.

[Vhaidara]

If Riddick, Thor or the Hulk was to sit down at a table with you and ask to ''open the pickle jar they can't open'', would you ever fall for that?

Well, that is a character who has decided that they look big. Bluff has these things called "circumstances" that give bonuses to the opposing Sense Motive check. Meanwhile, Bruce Lee sits down at the same table, wrapped in a cloak so you can't tell it's Bruce Lee or see his muscles, and says that he can't open it.

[Snowbluff]

If you have festering anger, you don't get bulky, right?

Strength doesn't have to come from build. Muscles are including, but like charisma it's not everything. Perhaps your character's str comes from celestial force?

[Threadnaught]

If Riddick, Thor or the Hulk was to sit down at a table with you and ask to ''open the pickle jar they can't open'', would you ever fall for that?

Riddick: "Open this jar please, I can't it's just too tight."
Thor: "Arr, this jar be too slippery and be hurting me arthritis. Please open it for me?"
Hulk: "Hulk not open puny jar. Hulk sick and bloated with giant disease. Hulk too weak to do more than walk. Puny human open jar for Hulk."


Even if Thor ''had a cloak on'', he would still he a tall, huge, broad shouldered man. He can't ''look like Loki'' no matter what his ranks in anything.

Loki has loads of Ranks in Disguise and Bluff. He can as a result, look and sound exactly like anyone else.

Maybe Thor learned the same stuff.

[Aegis013]

If Riddick, Thor or the Hulk was to sit down at a table with you and ask to ''open the pickle jar they can't open'', would you ever fall for that?


Playing with the Sovereign Glue again Hulk? Let me go get the Universal Solvent.
Maybe he's not lying.

Edit: And I don't think I would call out Hulk even if I thought he was lying.

[afroakuma]

Sure, sure, sure....for the boring play-the-game-by-the-rulebook people. I know that is the answer for way too many gamers.


But everyone is going to go with ''a character can look like anything and have a strength of anything''?

Guess I'll have to add another house rule.....the higher the strength of your character, the bigger and more muscular your character is to the NPC's world.

Really. You're really going to do this.

What answer were you hoping for, specifically? Was it 1) It's only sensible to demand characters look bulky and muscular if they have high Strength scores and not have massive muscles otherwise, or 2) It's only sensible to create rules relating your choice of appearance to NPC reactions and ability to react to you?

Those are both fatuous ideas. Appearance in real life, as it turns out, does not matter by real-life rules. I happen to know a girl who wears high heels to reach 5 ft. and might break 110 pounds soaking wet wearing welding gear who's a good deal stronger than grown men a lot more massive than her.

Know what is a factor? Things like seeing how people carry themselves, how they move and what they do. My karate sensei is tiny, but to anyone who knows what a trained athlete moves like she's obviously got a lot of background in it. Similarly, it's difficult for someone uncoordinated or sluggardly to carry themselves in a way that suggests a great deal of physical fitness, even if they're wearing football pads under a snazzy suit. If Strong Hermione and Weak Tyson are observed, it should be pretty easy to gauge them on relative fitness, even without having one to compare to the other.

Unless they deliberately act otherwise. Which would be some sort of... skill, I believe. Possibly Charisma-based. Shame I don't know of any. Mr. Flickerdart, do you know of any Charisma-based skills useful for acting in a fashion that might conceal or obscure some information about your nature to others?


You could describe your character as ''I giant taco that pops ice cream'' and everyone in the world must just act like that is normal.

That's right, I forgot, no such thing as a circumstance modifier in 3.5 so that a DM can reasonably assess a penalty for looking like dessert-excreting Mexican food. Curse those short-sighted developers.

Honestly, I have no idea why you keep starting these threads if the whole point is to just find people to disagree with and then insult them for not subscribing to your style of play.

[Amphetryon]

The man pictured is Louis Cyr (http://www.dennisrogers.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Louis-Cyr-BW.jpg). He was less than 6' tall, weighed roughly 310#, and counted among his feats of strength carrying 4,337 pounds on his back.

[Flickerdart]

Mr. Flickerdart, do you know of any Charisma-based skills useful for acting in a fashion that might conceal or obscure some information about your nature to others?
Why Mr. Afroakuma, what a coincidence that you should ask. I happen to have exactly such a thing stashed away here somewhere. It's a little bit of an obscure rulebook though, can't blame some folks for not knowin' about it. Unless of course these folks were playing D&D, because the book in question is the Player's Handbook. Why, Mr. Afroakuma, I can hardly fathom of an individual who would claim to be an aficionado of this here game and yet have such lack of familiarity with this manual!

[Svata]

Looks like someone was unaware of your POWER, Afro.

[Vhaidara]

Why Mr. Afroakuma, what a coincidence that you should ask. I happen to have exactly such a thing stashed away here somewhere. It's a little bit of an obscure rulebook though, can't blame some folks for not knowin' about it. Unless of course these folks were playing D&D, because the book in question is the Player's Handbook. Why, Mr. Afroakuma, I can hardly fathom of an individual who would claim to be an aficionado of this here game and yet have such lack of familiarity with this manual!

Ah, but Mr. Flickerdart, that book is only used by


good little book zombie-robots

Real Roleplayers just make **** up as they go along.

[Flickerdart]

Ah, but Mr. Flickerdart, that book is only used by



Real Roleplayers just make **** up as they go along.
That is a sensible and defensible position that's definitely not meant to be inflammatory, Mr. Keledrath. However, one (not I, of course, for my confidence in the good faith of our fellows' intentions is absolute and unshakable) might wonder, if this is indeed the case, why these Real Roleplayers would trouble themselves to descend to the level of the rabble and request their input on a matter.

[Snowbluff]

Keledrath, why is 'rule' censored in your post? :smalltongue:

Nice avatar, by the way. Warforged totemist?

[Squidfist]

Typically stats don't interact, and things like a penalty to hide because you're a bulky warrior is taken into account passively, rather than with active penalties.

If you're a barbarian with 18 STR, presumably you are bad at hiding because you have a low-ish DEX and (probably) didn't invest skills into hide. Rather than an active penalty, your character creation process has left you poor at hiding.

On the other hand, it's not impossible for someone bulky to be good at hiding. If you invest the skills and have the appropriate attribute for a high score in that skill, it makes sense. You've trained to be good at hiding, and probably trained while being a big meat-brick.

And keep in mind, if your size actually moves to Large then there would be an active penalty.

[Hamste]

Keledrath, why is 'rule' censored in your post? :smalltongue:

Nice avatar, by the way. Warforged totemist?

Dang it, why does everyone guess it right but not me. (I thought it was a Psionic warforged)

[Vhaidara]

Keledrath, why is 'rule' censored in your post? :smalltongue:

Nice avatar, by the way. Warforged totemist?

Correct.


Dang it, why does everyone guess it right but not me. (I thought it was a Psionic warforged)

Probably because I post around here a fair bit about how much I love both warforged and Incarnum. Also, you said it yourself, you don't really know Incarnum

[Sir Chuckles]

If Riddick, Thor or the Hulk was to sit down at a table with you and ask to ''open the pickle jar they can't open'', would you ever fall for that?

Even if Thor ''had a cloak on'', he would still he a tall, huge, broad shouldered man. He can't ''look like Loki'' no matter what his ranks in anything.

Except that is the point of disguise. Slapping a thick quilt under your shoulders to make you look hunched and old. Putting crabapples in your cheeks to make you look less like a chiseled man-beast. Wearing puffy sleeves so that they can't see the corded beef.
As someone who is a 5'4 200lb wall of muscle and has a small handful of 1st place trophies for acting in a variety of roles throughout my very early college years, I can say that what you look like is only a small part of disguising yourself.

I can't disagree with implementing a penalty for a Arnold-type situation, but outright saying it's impossible is just mean to players. To force players to look like one stereotype is breaking the spirit of roleplay.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I'm just gonna point out that in 3.5, Climb is a skill keyed to strength. And Adam Ondra, pictured in the spoiler, is by far the strongest climber in the world, and probably the strongest ever. The strongest woman climber in the world is 5'2" and less than a hundred pounds. There's a lot of ways to be strong without being a massive slab of meat. So strong players look like whatever they say they look like, and strong NPCs look like whatever the DM says they look like.

http://braveandhumble.climbingnarc.com/wp-content/images/ondramello.jpg

[Snowbluff]

Having good climb != having str. Not that I don't agree with you, but climb is a SKILL. A learned trait. Factotums climb from int. I think you can climb from dex. Mundane humans would gain more from ranks and feat than they would str.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Ranks, sure. Other modifiers? Not really. Climbing is entirely about optimizing functional strength. That's a real-world thing applied to a game system, though, so it doesn't work exactly. But if we're talking about physical descriptions of stats, it seems appropriate to point out that many of the things keyed to Strength in 3.5 aren't generally associated with being huge muscle people.

[Vhaidara]

Having good climb != having str. Not that I don't agree with you, but climb is a SKILL. A learned trait. Factotums climb from int. I think you can climb from dex. Mundane humans would gain more from ranks and feat than they would str.

There's a feat that switches it to Dex.

I would probably put him as a Human Factotum with said feat, and stats would go Dex>Int>Con(depending on length of climbs)>Str>Wis=Cha

[Snowbluff]

Mhm.

A 100 pound person would not have power in the real world, too. By being light, she gets through by having to lift less. This isn't represented well in DnD, but it's not a great model.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Mhm.

A 100 pound person would not have power in the real world, too. By being light, she gets through by having to lift less. This isn't represented well in DnD, but it's not a great model.

I think DnD's mechanics are a total misunderstanding of strength, and that the majority of functional strength isn't well represented by either Str or Dex. So depending on how you assign credit, you end up either with people who are 5'2 and sub-100 pounds lifting five times their body weight, or or modelling people who are incredibly, insanely strong as instead being agile/smart/experienced, depending on how you choose to do it. I tend to believe that the carrying capacity rules are just badly tuned.

I've met Sasha. I can definitely say she has tremendous physical power.

[Mellack]

I just want to throw in that there is a man named Dennis Rogers who is well known for his feats of strength. You would not look at him twice as anything more than a man in reasonably good shape.
http://www.dennisrogers.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Dennis-Rogers-Photo-By-Clay-Joyner.jpg

[r2d2go]

Dang it, why does everyone guess it right but not me. (I thought it was a Psionic warforged)

That's what I thought too :smalltongue: only vaguely familiar with incarnum, so that's probably why...

Anyway. To answer the OP - there are already rules in place for "picturing strength". They're called circumstance modifiers, and the DM applies them. Want a guideline? You can make it yourself.

[Snowbluff]

I've met Sasha. I can definitely say she has tremendous physical power.

Which is unlikely as you've described her. She may know how to use the strength she has in the tasks she's trained in, but that doesn't mean she has a large amount of strength. Frankly put, the universe equates mass with power. Either you are lying, or are misunderstanding the difference between a strength check and a skill check when modeled against the world. For example, at 100 pounds and a +2 bonus (really good, but still not outweighing skill ranks at first level), she would be able to carry 60% of her mass unencumbered.

She may be strong for her size, but being light and skilled is doing more.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Expand on that. I don't follow, unless you're saying that having a high strength should apply a circumstance modifier to some other skill, in which case I don't agree.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Which is unlikely as you've described her. She may know how to use the strength she has in the tasks she's trained in, but that doesn't mean she has a large amount of strength. Frankly put, the universe equates mass with power. Either you are lying, or are misunderstanding the difference between a strength check and a skill check when modeled against the world. For example, at 100 pounds and a +2 bonus (really good, but still not outweighing skill ranks at first level), she would be able to carry 60% of her mass unencumbered.

Either way, what I said in the post prior stands; you've not actually addressed it at all.

Edited to remove flaming.

[Fax Celestis]

Your personal weight does not count against your encumbrance.

[Snowbluff]

The others are jumping and swimming. Straight physics, mostly. Again the problem here is size isn't very well accounted for in a size category. If I have strong legs, I produce more force. If I have more skills, I know to extend my legs at the right time, etc.

The point here is that strength isn't the whole story on skill checks.

EDIT: Fax, of course it doesn't. That's one of the problems with the model. This is a part of the disconnection between what we're being told and how it's supposed to relate to the topic.

[jedipotter]

Really. You're really going to do this.

Sure, of course. Leave no stone unturned.




What answer were you hoping for, specifically? Was it 1) It's only sensible to demand characters look bulky and muscular if they have high Strength scores and not have massive muscles otherwise, or 2) It's only sensible to create rules relating your choice of appearance to NPC reactions and ability to react to you?

I don't really hope anymore, I know everyone thinks like 180 degrees from me. I did kinda figure everyone was going to go the Anime route of ''this nine year old girl has a strength of 25 because Orcus.''




Those are both fatuous ideas. Appearance in real life, as it turns out, does not matter by real-life rules. I happen to know a girl who wears high heels to reach 5 ft. and might break 110 pounds soaking wet wearing welding gear who's a good deal stronger than grown men a lot more massive than her.

Sure, me too. The important thing is: for each ''exception'' there are a thousand ''normals.




Know what is a factor? Things like seeing how people carry themselves, how they move and what they do. My karate sensei is tiny, but to anyone who knows what a trained athlete moves like she's obviously got a lot of background in it. Similarly, it's difficult for someone uncoordinated or sluggardly to carry themselves in a way that suggests a great deal of physical fitness, even if they're wearing football pads under a snazzy suit. If Strong Hermione and Weak Tyson are observed, it should be pretty easy to gauge them on relative fitness, even without having one to compare to the other.

From the military/cop side....most can tell if someone has had training. Watch someone draw and fire a guy and you can tell if they have had some training at it or if they are just a country boy shooting for funs. And sure, like one in a hundred country boys will have taught themselves good all on their own......but the other bunch like just watched a you tube video. You can spot people that have gotten professional training.

You can tell if someone has had any type of hand to hand training too. ''Normal folks'' just kinda flap around, but people with training react in set ways.






Unless they deliberately act otherwise. Which would be some sort of... skill, I believe. Possibly Charisma-based. Shame I don't know of any. Mr. Flickerdart, do you know of any Charisma-based skills useful for acting in a fashion that might conceal or obscure some information about your nature to others?

And like I said in my first post, this comes from the Hollywood thing. Take anyone with a huge build, or for that matter anyone beautiful, should they not get a penalty to ''blending in like a normal joe''.





Honestly, I have no idea why you keep starting these threads if the whole point is to just find people to disagree with and then insult them for not subscribing to your style of play.

Sure, I PM everyone first and tell them to disagree with me.

[jedipotter]

I can't disagree with implementing a penalty for a Arnold-type situation, but outright saying it's impossible is just mean to players. To force players to look like one stereotype is breaking the spirit of roleplay.

And that is what I said...... The Hulk gets a big penalty if he tries to hide as a scribe, and a penalty in general when around normal looking folks. When you line up the people, and most of them are between 5-6 feet tall with average builds....that one eight foot tall guy with biceps bigger then ever ones heads(oh and green skin) stands out.


You would not look at him twice as anything more than a man in reasonably good shape.


But you can tell Dennis Rogers is ''in good shape''.....see that is what I'm talking about: he can't hide his build.

[Flickerdart]

Sure, me too. The important thing is: for each ''exception'' there are a thousand ''normals.
Today we learn that people who are strong but not bodybuilders are abnormal. Purge the heretic! Shun the freak! Suffer ye not the abomination of...oh, this is a lie? There are plenty of strong people who aren't build like trucks, and can disguise their muscles just by putting on a long sleeved shirt with a pillow tucked inside? There are way more of these regular, strong people than there are those who sculpt muscles to look big and impressive on purpose? Heavens gracious, and I've already lit the torches.



I don't really hope anymore, I know everyone thinks like 180 degrees from me. I did kinda figure everyone was going to go the Anime route of ''this nine year old girl has a strength of 25 because Orcus.''
It's hilarious every time you open your mouth and hyperbole comes out. Everyone who's not stacked is a 9 year old girl. Everyone who tries to disguise muscles is a disgusting powergames with a never-fail Bluff check. It's like you don't understand anything except absurd extremes.

Since we're in the business of proving jedipotter wrong with real examples instead of fever dreams, let me make one as well.

Peter Romanov, Emperor of Russia, is single-handedly responsible for the "Russian Bear" myth thanks to his travels in Western Europe before he assumed the throne. This was a man who used his tremendous strength to bend iron pokers for fun, and worked as a ship-builder because he liked the exercise. What did this magnificent stack of man muscle look like?


Like a dandy.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Peter_der-Grosse_1838.jpg/640px-Peter_der-Grosse_1838.jpg

[jedipotter]

It's hilarious every time you open your mouth and hyperbole comes out. Everyone who's not stacked is a 9 year old girl. Everyone who tries to disguise muscles is a disgusting powergames with a never-fail Bluff check. It's like you don't understand anything except absurd extremes.

Um.....Marklar?




http://img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/45299a2d8790017305b3a3567cdf7eb3/http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b311/Jason1986/Insult%20pix/Marklar.jpg

[Flickerdart]

Um.....Marklar?
Do they speak English in Marklar?

[TheIronGolem]

I did kinda figure everyone was going to go the Anime route of ''this nine year old girl has a strength of 25 because Orcus.''

Nobody did.

[Sir Chuckles]

And that is what I said...... The Hulk gets a big penalty if he tries to hide as a scribe, and a penalty in general when around normal looking folks. When you line up the people, and most of them are between 5-6 feet tall with average builds....that one eight foot tall guy with biceps bigger then ever ones heads(oh and green skin) stands out.

But it should not disclude him from making the check. He could pass pretty well as an Orc in a standard D&D setting, but I would definitely say "Are you sure you want to attempt that?" if full Hulk tried to hide as a normal human. Of course, Bruce Banner isn't like that.

The problem that we're having is that you're unable to see it any differently. There are numbers between 0 and 180, and most people hold opinions that occupy those degrees, when compared to yours. You can't be using ad absurdum and expect to get any results.

[Flickerdart]

But it should not disclude him from making the check. He could pass pretty well as an Orc in a standard D&D setting, but I would definitely say "Are you sure you want to attempt that?" if full Hulk tried to hide as a normal human. Of course, Bruce Banner isn't like that.
One of the smaller Hulks (as jedipotter puts it, 8ft tall) could masquerade as a 6ft tall human with a -25 penalty on his Disguise check. Naturally, such a penalty represents tremendous difficulty, and getting 25 on a check is something that doesn't seem possible when you're just a normal person. However, given that this is fantasy, there's no reason someone can't be really freakin' good at Disguise and manage to make the check with this penalty. That's what being good at something means - you can do really hard stuff.

Of course, we can also play a special version of D&D where people's abilities are capped by what jedipotter is personally capable of accomplishing, to make him feel better about his lack of imagination. But then the game would be called Commoners & Commoners.

[Oneris]

And like I said in my first post, this comes from the Hollywood thing. Take anyone with a huge build, or for that matter anyone beautiful, should they not get a penalty to ''blending in like a normal joe''.

Except there are plenty of 'normal joes' who could have exceptional builds. The pig farmer from across town who bodily carries his 500lb+ swine to market, the exceptionally beautiful daughter of the local alchemist, the bastard half-orc apprentice of the blacksmith. The only reason these exceptionally-built NPCs don't stand out in a game world and the exceptionally-built PCs do is because of the law of conservation of detail. Just because the PCs fail to look 'completely normal' does not mean they're failing to blend in.

Now, if they behave with far more skill and dexterity than a normal person in reacting to a sneak attack, then that might be a failure of disguise.

Personal Rule: Don't penalize for what they are, penalize for what they do.

[ComaVision]

Lots of people that don't know much about real life strength in this thread...

Bruce Lee wasn't that strong. Very quick and agile and strong for his weight definitely but not really that strong in relative terms. Same would go for the rock climbers and martial arts teachers. They may be able to move around their body weight quite easily and have good strength for their weight but they're not going to be picking up 500 lbs. Muscle endurance is also different than strength.

On that note, I am stronger than Bruce Lee (in the pure measure of weight moved), and I'm certainly no where near not being able to hide it. I have a bit of a build but throw on a baggy hoody or something (or the robes that are ever present in medieval fantasy) and nobody would be the wiser.

As other people have alluded to, in the case of someone of immense strength (like Arnold or The Mountain), their characters would likely not be focused towards Hide or Disguise. If someone really spends the time making a massive character with ramped up Disguise, why stifle that creativity that has been invested in a likely interesting character?

[afroakuma]

why stifle that creativity that has been invested in a likely interesting character?

Because in jedipotter's world, creativity is aligned with powergaming, and realism is aligned with fun. If you want to play a giant mass of muscle that NPCs don't immediately pick out as having the force capacity of a truck and react to accordingly, you're powergaming and being a book robot thing.

[troqdor1316]

One of the smaller Hulks (as jedipotter puts it, 8ft tall) could masquerade as a 6ft tall human with a -25 penalty on his Disguise check. Naturally, such a penalty represents tremendous difficulty, and getting 25 on a check is something that doesn't seem possible when you're just a normal person. However, given that this is fantasy, there's no reason someone can't be really freakin' good at Disguise and manage to make the check with this penalty. That's what being good at something means - you can do really hard stuff.

Of course, we can also play a special version of D&D where people's abilities are capped by what jedipotter is personally capable of accomplishing, to make him feel better about his lack of imagination. But then the game would be called Commoners & Co mmoners.

Really, I think this hits the nails of all of jedipotter's problems on their respective heads . Deus forbid someone do something that jedipotter might not personally think to do himself, and obviously anyone who does manage some creativity is gaming the system. Thing is, I'm pretty sure that the system we're now talking about is no longer D&D, because jedipotter has shown multiple times that he does not follow D&D's rules and only shows interest in making threads about his homebrew ideas for houserules. Really, then, shouldn't these threads be in the homebrew forum and NOT taking up our precious internet space here?

Of course, I've got no interest in petitioning a mod to move his threads, or close them, or anything of the like. Really, my only point is that there comes a certain point of being wrong about something where you stop being wrong about that thing and start being right about something else entirely. Whatever game system jedipotter plays, I'm sure he's completely in the right about that system, where the skills are made up, the audience chooses what category of Orcus to play next, and player agency (and common courtesy between the players and the GM in general) doesn't matter; that said, it's certainly not D&D 3.5.

[Troacctid]

Honestly I've never had a player want to play a high-Str character who looks frail and weak for their race. I could imagine it, I guess, if they had high Str and low Con, but how often does that combo crop up? If a player wanted to play an 18 Str little girl in my game, I'd be more likely to shut them down based on the character's age than the implausibility. (Children shouldn't have strength that high, but if they did, it would be more logical to enforce that with an ability score penalty like with elderly characters.) If they aged her up to 16, I'd be like, "Uh, okay, it worked for Buffy, I guess," and allow it.

For the most part I'd use bluff or disguise checks if they wanted to appear weaker than they are, and it would be harder for them than a naturally weak character because, well, the naturally weak character wouldn't even need a check in the first place--you don't roll bluff if you're not bluffing! You can hide your strength, but it takes training (i.e. actual investment of skill points) to do so effectively. Most Str-based characters have few skill points and lack the proper class skills, and I wouldn't expect them to pull it off. It is certainly possible if you try, though. Look at how well Superman pulls it off:

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/clarksuperman_330_3985.jpg
And let's not even get started on King Bumi.

Usually the situation where I'd expect this sort of thing to come up is the one where a player is playing a race that always looks shrimpy, like a Halfling or a High Elf. And in that case I don't think it would be an issue. The Halfling is still going to be three feet tall and the Elf is still going to be lean and sinuous rather than big and bulky.

Another possibility is if a normally shrimpy-looking character puts on a belt of +6 Str, or drinks a potion of Bull's Strength, or otherwise magically enhances their strength. In that case they'd be strong, but they wouldn't magically gain muscle mass, they'd just be magically strong--so they could easily pass themselves off as weak (i.e. hefty circumstance modifiers to the bluff check), although a keen-eyed observer could still tell the difference based on the way they move and carry themselves (i.e. there's still a check involved).

[Tar Palantir]

That's actually the perfect example. You want to see someone built like a bodybuilder passing themself off as a normal joe? Superman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIaF0QKtY0c) (granted, Christopher Reeve is no Arnold, but the principle is the same). It's a skill, sure; not everyone could pull it off. At the extreme ends, penalties become prohibitive, to the point where superhuman skill is needed to compensate. But it is by no means difficult to imagine how such a thing could be done.

[The Insanity]

Nobody did.
Eh, I kinda did.

[Somensjev]

okay, since people are putting forth real life examples, i'll say one too: myself

i'll use the carrying capacity table from the PHB. i can give me friend, who is over 100kg (at least 220lb) a piggyback for an indefinite time

if that's a heavy load, that means i have a minimum 16 strength, however, i was still able to run/walk at full speed, so it must have been a light load, if i'm reading the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm) correctly, putting me at a minimum 24 strength (wait, what? :smalleek:)

to preserve my sanity, let's assume my strength is capped at 20, which means carrying him was a medium load (still not buying it, i don't think i can lift 400lb and only be at my max carrying capacity, my arms would fall off before then)

and what do i, who have a strength somewhere between 16 and 24, look like?


http://oi57.tinypic.com/2w23jug.jpg

not exactly big and buff, am i?
pretty sure i can, and have, convinced people i'm weak

[troqdor1316]

That's actually the perfect example. You want to see someone built like a bodybuilder passing themself off as a normal joe? Superman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIaF0QKtY0c) (granted, Christopher Reeve is no Arnold, but the principle is the same). It's a skill, sure; not everyone could pull it off. At the extreme ends, penalties become prohibitive, to the point where superhuman skill is needed to compensate. But it is by no means difficult to imagine how such a thing could be done.


Eh...it's definitely not a BAD example, I just wouldn't call it a perfect one. After all, Superman is Kryptonian; he doesn't get his STR score from muscle mass, he gets it from the Earth's yellow sun. If a normal human had Superman's STR score IN THE REAL WORLD, they would definitely be enormous bulging monstrosities.

Good thing DnD doesn't take place in the real world, huh? Because if I want to play a 9 year old girl with 18 STR, you bet your ass I'm gonna. You wanna know why she doesn't have bulging biceps? Pick a reason:

1. It's magic. I ain't gotta explain ****.

The onus for explaining completely rules legal, non-cheese parts of a character should not be on the player, as it's completely rules legal and not cheesy. Penalties for said completely rules legal, non-cheese parts of a character should also not be on a player. Why would you penalize someone for playing the game the way the game was written?

[Flickerdart]

If a normal human had Superman's STR score IN THE REAL WORLD, they would definitely be enormous bulging monstrosities.
There's no possible way to equate the strength to lift planets with "a normal human."

[Svata]

Beacuse RAW lets the players do things that Jedipotter doesn't like. Such as allowing spellcasters to cast spells, or anyone know things, or anyone to disguise themselves.

[Troacctid]

Good thing DnD doesn't take place in the real world, huh? Because if I want to play a 9 year old girl with 18 STR, you bet your ass I'm gonna. You wanna know why she doesn't have bulging biceps? Pick a reason:

1. It's magic. I ain't gotta explain ****.

The onus for explaining completely rules legal, non-cheese parts of a character should not be on the player, as it's completely rules legal and not cheesy. Penalties for said completely rules legal, non-cheese parts of a character should also not be on a player. Why would you penalize someone for playing the game the way the game was written?

That's simply incorrect. The Str score that you roll or point-buy when you generate your character is explicitly nonmagical. You don't lose your muscles when you walk into an Antimagic Field. Enhancement bonuses that you add on later are the magic.

[Yogibear41]

Good call. I was just going with the assumption that 18 was the limit of a human but it certainly makes sense that he would be above that.


Going off the Carrying Capacity table in the PHB, to derive strength score to pounds moved, a character can lift up to twice his maximum load off the ground, aka a deadlift, last time I check the world record deadlift was slightly over 1000 pounds, which means that man would have had a strength score of approximately 22.

Back to the original question, there are people who weight less than 140 pounds who have strength scores of 15-16 easily. I'm sure if I looked I could find people of the same size with strengths pushing 18.

[hamishspence]

i'll use the carrying capacity table from the PHB. i can give me friend, who is over 100kg (at least 220lb) a piggyback for an indefinite time

if that's a heavy load, that means i have a minimum 16 strength, however, i was still able to run/walk at full speed, so it must have been a light load, if i'm reading the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm) correctly, putting me at a minimum 24 strength (wait, what? :smalleek:)

to preserve my sanity, let's assume my strength is capped at 20, which means carrying him was a medium load (still not buying it, i don't think i can lift 400lb and only be at my max carrying capacity, my arms would fall off before then)


The SRD simplifies things somewhat. Keep in mind you have to be "unencumbered" for something to qualify as a light load - that is, it must not impact your skills in any way.

Can you walk for 8 hours with that load? Jump roughly the same height as you can with no load at all? "Hustle" for 1 hour with that load?

If you are "Walking at full speed" you might actually, in game terms, be hustling, not walking, at the "heavy load" speed.


Going off the Carrying Capacity table in the PHB, to derive strength score to pounds moved, a character can lift up to twice his maximum load off the ground, aka a deadlift, last time I check the world record deadlift was slightly over 1000 pounds, which means that man would have had a strength score of approximately 22.

Keep in mind that the character can also "stagger around at a rate of 5 ft per round" with it - deadlifters generally don't do that.

[Yogibear41]

That's simply incorrect. The Str score that you roll or point-buy when you generate your character is explicitly nonmagical. You don't lose your muscles when you walk into an Antimagic Field. Enhancement bonuses that you add on later are the magic.

Gonna play the Devil's Advocate

Magically applied templates, don't go away in an anti-magic field.

[Troacctid]

Gonna play the Devil's Advocate

Magically applied templates, don't go away in an anti-magic field.

Point. But that does mean magic is involved in an explicitly-defined manner--you still can't say "It's magic" as an ad hoc explanation for your otherwise-ordinary human child with 18 Str.

[dascarletm]

Point. But that does mean magic is involved in an explicitly-defined manner--you still can't say "It's magic" as an ad hoc explanation for your otherwise-ordinary human child with 18 Str.

is it that they can't, or that you personally don't like the idea?

Because they certainly can describe there character that way.


Look at any monster that has a large +str bonus, but isn't depicted as physically stronger.

[Jermz]

Oh dear, are we once again arguing real world physics vs. dungeons and dragons? We all know what lies at the bottom of that rabbit hole, and my Will save just isn't high enough to go down there... :smallbiggrin:

[Zrak]

Steve Austin, who is huge, has lots of ranks in disguise and bluff, so he can convince a guard that he is ''Herman the tea guy'' if he rolls good(or is super optimized to ''never not make it). And this is great ''by the book and all''.

Is there any reason Herman the Tea Guy couldn't be huge? If the guy Steve Austin's trying to bluff knows Herman the Tea Guy, and knows Herman isn't huge, Steve Austin's bluff check got a lot harder. If Steve's just pretending to be Some Guy Who Brings Tea, though, I don't see any reason why his build would matter.

I mean, if you see a really muscular waiter, do you assume he's a mercenary hired to assassinate one of the guests or do you assume the guy works out on the weekends?


If Riddick, Thor or the Hulk was to sit down at a table with you and ask to ''open the pickle jar they can't open'', would you ever fall for that?

They just have to make the bluff about something other than strength in order to make it believable:

"The lid is greasy, and none amongst our number has a shirt with which to wipe it. Our oiled muscles only exacerbate this jar's fiendish slipperiness," said Thor. "Would that Sons of Asgard were not made to gleam so! Hast thou a garment to wipe and grubby hands to twist, mortal? I would be in your debt."

"Hulk want smash, but Riddick say he kill Hulk with jar shards if Hulk smash pickles inside," added the Hulk, shrugging.

[Troacctid]

is it that they can't, or that you personally don't like the idea?

Because they certainly can describe there character that way.


Look at any monster that has a large +str bonus, but isn't depicted as physically stronger.

It's that D&D draws a distinction between magical and nonmagical abilities, and physical ability scores are not magical.

Some monsters may have racial Str bonuses without being depicted as muscular, but a. that's not the same as being magic and b. that certainly does not apply to humans, who do not have any racial ability modifiers.

[Svata]

They just have to make the bluff about something other than strength in order to make it believable:

"The lid is greasy, and none amongst our number has a shirt with which to wipe it. Our oiled muscles only exacerbate this jar's fiendish slipperiness," said Thor. "Would that Sons of Asgard were not made to gleam so! Hast thou a garment to wipe and grubby hands to twist, mortal? I would be in your debt."

"Hulk want smash, but Riddick say he kill Hulk with jar shards if Hulk smash pickles inside," added the Hulk, shrugging.

I almost want to sig-quote that.

[Threadnaught]

"Hulk want smash, but Riddick say he kill Hulk with jar shards if Hulk smash pickles inside," added the Hulk, shrugging.

This is the only thing I disagree with.


Riddick would kill Hulk with a pickle, he's planning on killing Thor with the lid.

[Morty]

The moral of the story is: trying to line up D&D attributes with reality is a quick, scenic route to the beautiful land of complete absurdity. Attributes tell you, in a roundabout way, what modifier you apply to certain checks and passive values, and what feats you qualify for. That's it.

And of course, I'm still mystified as to what, exactly, is so horrible about NPCs not suspecting that a character is incredibly strong. How is it different from all the other kinds of power you can't recognize at the first glance? Leaving aside your deliberately absurd Hermione Granger example, a muscular man might be a regular strong human. Or he might be a mighty warrior who will snap those ropes like string and punch your head off your shoulders. In a world with the kind of power disparity any D&D-verse has, it's just a fact of life.

[Chronos]

While we're at it with personal examples, I'm nearly six feet tall, broad-shouldered, and reasonably fit... and going by how much I can bench-press, I have a strength score of about 6.

And the Superman example isn't about the fact that Superman is an alien with a Str in the 50s or 60s. It's about Christopher Reeves, the human, being a very muscular man, and yet still being able to convincingly portray mild-mannered Clark Kent.

[Fax Celestis]

Of course, we can also play a special version of D&D where people's abilities are capped by what jedipotter is personally capable of accomplishing, to make him feel better about his lack of imagination. But then the game would be called Commoners & Commoners.

Dungeons & Dead Men.

[Psyren]

While I'm sure that up to a certain point strength corresponds with muscle, I doubt they are truly representative on a 1:1 basis, i.e. "chest size and arm diameter X to strength score Y." Just as a tiny brain corresponds with low Int but getting to 40 int does not turn you into Megamind.

[dascarletm]

It's that D&D draws a distinction between magical and nonmagical abilities, and physical ability scores are not magical.

Some monsters may have racial Str bonuses without being depicted as muscular, but a. that's not the same as being magic and b. that certainly does not apply to humans, who do not have any racial ability modifiers.

There are things that are magical. Like magic items and spells.

There are things that are "magical" like being a half celestial. You get an increase to strength but nowhere are you described as bigger because of it.

You can certainly say that I have some celestial/fiendish ancestry way back down (too little to be planetouched) but it manifests as increased strength instead of any other ability. That's why I am so strong but look fairly small.

There is no rules as to you needing to look any sort of way based off your abilities, so trying to say DnD draws lines or not will get you no where. If you want to go based solely off the rules then, I look this way because I can describe my character however I want.

However, if you want to rationalize it then this method works just fine.

Moral of the story: even if something isn't tagged magical by DnD rules doesn't mean it isn't magical by the English definition of the word.

[Deadline]

Dungeons & Dead Men.

Drowning & Falling? (http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/drowning-and-falling/)

[Brookshw]

Drowning & Falling? (http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/drowning-and-falling/)

After looking that website over it sounds hilarious. Paranoia move over!

[The Insanity]

t's Fantasy. I ain't gotta explain ****.
FTFY. That should resolve the issue of "but muscles aren't magical".

[Spore]

i'll use the carrying capacity table from the PHB. i can give me friend, who is over 100kg (at least 220lb) a piggyback for an indefinite time


First of all "an indefinite time" is quite a stretch. You can't carry a guy this tall while doing anything else.

Second you would only stagger around leaving you at an average Str of 11. But please tell me you can run (4x 30 ft in 6 seconds) with that load on your back. And film it too.

[ComaVision]

There's also not much strength involved in standing with someone on your back. The weight is mostly supported by your skeletal system, likewise with small steps.

There's no way you could squat 100 kg.

[Talakeal]

I am having trouble following this thread. It appears that people are arguing that you are under no obligation to make the crunch / fluff aspects of your character match up. Is that about right?

Personally I like the two to work together rather than against each other. In a world with even a nod towards real world biology / physics Emma Watson is never going to be able to compete in an Olympic power lifting competition, it just isn't going to happen. If I really wanted to play Hermione the Barbarian I would at least come up with an explanation for it such as magical gifts, genetic alteration, some sort of mystic chi training, etc. rather than just stating "Its my character I do what I want!".

[Chronos]

In a world with even a nod to real physics, a 20-foot-tall person is going to be even less of a contender in powerlifting competitions, and yet, giants.

[The Insanity]

In a world with even a nod towards real world biology / physics
D&D isn't such a world.

[bjoern]

This came up a few campaigns ago for us. I had made a flying mounted archer. Due to load limitations on my mount , I could only weigh 90 lbs to keep my Mount at a light load with a little bit of gear. I wanted to be human, so rather than some sickly 90 lb male, I made it a female. Thing is she had a 16str and I got a hard time from people saying she was too light for that strength. But I ran with it anyway. She was just a lean beefy tough chick.

[TheIronGolem]

I am having trouble following this thread. It appears that people are arguing that you are under no obligation to make the crunch / fluff aspects of your character match up. Is that about right?
Almost the opposite, really. It's not "fluff and crunch don't have to match", it's more "my crunch reflects my fluff, which isn't necessarily the same as your fluff, and that's okay".

[Perturbulent]

I suppose the best thing I can say is that this is a picture of perhaps the best documented contender for strongest man in the world.
http://mizufae.smugmug.com/Category/Pete-and-Pete/Peteandpete/i-d35xdZc/0/S/artie-S.jpg

[Almagesto]

AFB right now, but wasn't there was some rule that combined STR+CON to tell you your actual "size" with respect to other people?

[Talakeal]

In a world with even a nod to real physics, a 20-foot-tall person is going to be even less of a contender in powerlifting competitions, and yet, giants.

A nod to and a perfect model of are not the same thing. Everyone knows that a little kid is going to be weaker than a grown man and a bear or a horse is going to be stronger than him, while an elephant will be stronger still. Bigger equal stronger is, for most people, just common sense.

Once you get some knowledge of biology and physics you will realize that it isn't always the case, but I would still consider it a good rule of thumb.

[Bart]

Bodybuilders from 60's and 70's that do no look like they had an apparatus pumping them with muscle juice, some of them at least; Dave Draper (http://www.mrofansite.com/draper.html), Bill Pearl (http://www.mrofansite.com/pearl.html) & Larry Scott (http://www.mrofansite.com/scott.html).
Anything beyond Arnold's era in general, tends to look like too much. Even Arnold's era has extremes but a few guys make it.
Bill Pearl would have an "18 Strength" heavy-set look for fantasy settings.
But even in the enhanced-athlete real world we live in, body weight-mass limits strength. You can't have someone that weighs 70 kg have 18 Strength score. The weight must be much higher, though not ridiculous. 18 would be around 100 to 120 kgs in body weight.
Olympic lifters, and other strength athletes, of the same decades and prior to them would fit the bill as well.
Corney (http://www.mrofansite.com/corney.html) Yes, Dorian (http://www.mrofansite.com/yates.html), No.

Let's rip off an olympic lifting to make; Chart for Strength/Weight
Str Score/Body Weight for small to medium-sized humanoids
12/lowest is 56 Kg
13/lowest is 62 Kg
14/lowest is 77 Kg
15/lowest is 85 Kg
16/lowest is 94 Kg
17/lowest is 105 kg
18/lowest is 106 kg
18+/add 15 kgs to lowest bw limit

Frazetta's depiction of muscularity is the best i think. I would go by that.

[Spore]

AFB right now, but wasn't there was some rule that combined STR+CON to tell you your actual "size" with respect to other people?

Yes, and my player told me that calling the city guard requires me to do a DC 5 Diplomacy check. Not all rules are useful.

Still, mundane strength should be visible. I am not telling you to picture every character with Str 18 as Schwarzenegger's Conan. But at least SOME visibility should be there. But if you're talking about magical or otherworldly strength increases like templates, magical items or fantastical races then high strength shouldn't be totally visible.

[Psyren]

AFB right now, but wasn't there was some rule that combined STR+CON to tell you your actual "size" with respect to other people?

This is a pretty silly rule; there are lots of hulking constructs out there (e.g. most golems) who have no Con at all.

[Vhaidara]

This is a pretty silly rule; there are lots of hulking constructs out there (e.g. most golems) who have no Con at all.

Don't forget undead. Zombie have no Con.

Also, wouldn't this mean that all ghosts are fully invisible? Since your body mass is based off of Str and Con. Any combination of -- and -- is going to result in --.

[Seharvepernfan]

Bruce Lee himself said "a stronger muscle is a larger muscle". The world's strongest dudes are also some of the largest dudes. The guy that plays Gregor Clegane is 6'9" and weighs over 400lbs (according to google. Also, he's a good example of a guy with more than 18 str, and I'd say he qualifies for powerful build).

So, no, you will never find someone like emma watson who has a str of 11+. Han could maybe hide 14 str under his clothes.

I've known people who were surprisingly strong in some ways, but it wasnt meaningful enough to affect their str scores.

Now, constitution plays a role. Say you have two 15 str guys, where one has 10 con and the other has 14; I'd bet that the 14 con guy is heavier/larger. So, an elf with 10 str will probably weigh less than a human with 10 str, but your 17 str 90lb elf chick is unrealistic.

All said, I don't care if somebody comes to my table with a 17str 90lb elf chick (I might mention it or occasionally make fun of the fact); it's a game, and a fantasy one at that, where dragons can fly.

[Morty]

It appears that people are arguing that you are under no obligation to make the crunch / fluff aspects of your character match up. Is that about right?


That's not a position put forward by anyone, except by jedipotter in an attempt to make the opposing opinion look absurd.

[Flickerdart]

Bruce Lee himself said "a stronger muscle is a larger muscle". The world's strongest dudes are also some of the largest dudes. The guy that plays Gregor Clegane is 6'9" and weighs over 400lbs (according to google. Also, he's a good example of a guy with more than 18 str, and I'd say he qualifies for powerful build).

So, no, you will never find someone like emma watson who has a str of 11+. Han could maybe hide 14 str under his clothes.

"The strongest guys are the biggest guys" doesn't translate at all into "all small people must be weak."

[hamishspence]

"The strongest guys are the biggest guys" doesn't translate at all into "all small people must be weak."

I vaguely recall reading something about "World's Strongest Child" - a very young, very small weightlifter. Not sure how strong they were.

[geekintheground]

"when i was a baby, i ate a belt of giants strength +X... it got digested and absorbed into my body which is why i look like a wimp but am actually quite strong. its a part of my body now so its even active in anti-magic fields!"
or
"i underwent very speciallized training to maximize the strength of my muscles without sacrificing mobility. so now im as strong as an ox even though i dont look it!"

these are both examples of perfectly reasonable fluff reasons to look like hermione granger and be as strong as schwarzenegger. i dont see why people are against my playing this way. especially when its a corner stone of a character. "i look really weak so people pick on me all the time, sure im as strong as 10 men but i believe that with great strength comes a great duty to protect others and that i shouldnt use my strength for myself"

my position is: why punish creative thinking? this isnt a case of having your cake and eating it too. there are downsides to looking like a wimp and there are downsides to looking like the hulk.

[Arbane]

Rock Climbers? They tend to be fairly skinny people, but they're capable of doing one-armed pullups under decidedly non-optimal conditions.

[ComaVision]

Rock Climbers? They tend to be fairly skinny people, but they're capable of doing one-armed pullups under decidedly non-optimal conditions.

You'll find it's way easier to do chin ups when you're 100 lbs compared to being heavier. They're still weaker.

Also, there's a difference between pullups and chin ups and I've never seen or heard of a one handed pullup.

[georgie_leech]

You'll find it's way easier to do chin ups when you're 100 lbs compared to being heavier. They're still weaker.

Also, there's a difference between pullups and chin ups and I've never seen or heard of a one handed pullup.

For your interest. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac7-7vCrAhE) Depending on the difficulty of the climb, climbers will sometimes be in a position where one hand/arm is the only point of contact and thus the only set of muscles doing any lifting.

[Talakeal]

"when i was a baby, i ate a belt of giants strength +X... it got digested and absorbed into my body which is why i look like a wimp but am actually quite strong. its a part of my body now so its even active in anti-magic fields!"
or
"i underwent very speciallized training to maximize the strength of my muscles without sacrificing mobility. so now im as strong as an ox even though i dont look it!"

these are both examples of perfectly reasonable fluff reasons to look like hermione granger and be as strong as schwarzenegger. i dont see why people are against my playing this way. especially when its a corner stone of a character. "i look really weak so people pick on me all the time, sure im as strong as 10 men but i believe that with great strength comes a great duty to protect others and that i shouldnt use my strength for myself"

my position is: why punish creative thinking? this isnt a case of having your cake and eating it too. there are downsides to looking like a wimp and there are downsides to looking like the hulk.

That is awesome and creative and i would not have a problem with it. The people who are arguing they can do whatever they want and don't owe anyone an explanation on the other hand, thats a bit less awesome and welcome.

[atemu1234]

You know, as much as I love it when a Jedipotter thread goes to hell, I thought I'd weigh in on this. Can you have a character with eighteen strength that looks like Sheldon Cooper? Yes. Because it is a reasonably well-conditioned actor playing a wimp. That argument on its own defeats itself.

[Undee]

I do more often than not tie Strength to the physique of my character, because if it doesn't make sense in my head I won't be very happy playing him/her. On the off-chance I ever want to play a 5'0'' 90lb female elf with 18 Str, I'd probably try to come up with SOME reason for her strength. Like going the "comic book hero" route, in that she was exposed to some strange radiation (read: magical energy) in the past that made her insanely strong for her appearance. Or bitten by a werebear (or some weird magical beast), cured just in time of lycanthropy and left with unnatural strength and sadly also hair in places elves shouldn't have hair. Or maybe her adventuring mom was stranded on some other plane while she was pregnant (like the early weeks, before she knew it) and it had some weird effects on her unborn child.

Anyway, you get the idea. I'd like to note that I'm madly in love with the Forgotten Realms (pre-spellplague) and in that setting there are probably dozens of other (and better) reasons why someone grows up to be a lot stronger than they look. As long as it makes a bit of sense I'd roll with it

[jedipotter]

I am having trouble following this thread. It appears that people are arguing that you are under no obligation to make the crunch / fluff aspects of your character match up. Is that about right?


Pretty much.

My game example was Hermione Granger(Emma Watson) and Riddick (Vin Diesel) both get caught. They were both characters with strengths of 20 or so. Hermione's player, Sara, wanted to be treated with 'kid gloves' and to ''have things go easy for her'' as she looked like a near helpless tiny, tiny little girl and expected Riddick to be ''put under maximum security guard'' as he looks as if he was to flinch he could kill someone. The guards did not risk it and put the ''manacles of enfeeblement'' on BOTH of them. Sara said that they would not ''waste'' the manacles on her character, as even though she had a strength of 20, she looked like Hermione.

I was asking if anyone though it right that ''high strength'' had to also indicate ''strong physical build''. Everyone just jumped on ''a player can make there character look how ever they want!''

[ComaVision]

Pretty much.

My game example was Hermione Granger(Emma Watson) and Riddick (Vin Diesel) both get caught. They were both characters with strengths of 20 or so. Hermione's player, Sara, wanted to be treated with 'kid gloves' and to ''have things go easy for her'' as she looked like a near helpless tiny, tiny little girl and expected Riddick to be ''put under maximum security guard'' as he looks as if he was to flinch he could kill someone. The guards did not risk it and put the ''manacles of enfeeblement'' on BOTH of them. Sara said that they would not ''waste'' the manacles on her character, as even though she had a strength of 20, she looked like Hermione.

I was asking if anyone though it right that ''high strength'' had to also indicate ''strong physical build''. Everyone just jumped on ''a player can make there character look how ever they want!''

In that specific example, I think your player is in the wrong. I don't see why guards in a magical world would risk it.


For your interest. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac7-7vCrAhE) Depending on the difficulty of the climb, climbers will sometimes be in a position where one hand/arm is the only point of contact and thus the only set of muscles doing any lifting.

That's a chin up. Pullups use an overhand grip.

[Necroticplague]

And in that specific situation, the player is in the wrong, but its not for having her own appearance not be big and muscly. Its for trying to be the one who dictates how NPCs react to her. Her appearance is irrelevant.

[geekintheground]

Pretty much.

My game example was Hermione Granger(Emma Watson) and Riddick (Vin Diesel) both get caught. They were both characters with strengths of 20 or so. Hermione's player, Sara, wanted to be treated with 'kid gloves' and to ''have things go easy for her'' as she looked like a near helpless tiny, tiny little girl and expected Riddick to be ''put under maximum security guard'' as he looks as if he was to flinch he could kill someone. The guards did not risk it and put the ''manacles of enfeeblement'' on BOTH of them. Sara said that they would not ''waste'' the manacles on her character, as even though she had a strength of 20, she looked like Hermione.

I was asking if anyone though it right that ''high strength'' had to also indicate ''strong physical build''. Everyone just jumped on ''a player can make there character look how ever they want!''

was this ever the situation? because thats not what i remember reading... i still say "no" to high str=beefcake, but the gaurds WOULD put the manacles on both because they WOULDNT risk it. in that situation it makes total sense to put the magic manacles on both characters.

[gartius]

The arguement there then is that all prisoners are treated equally, and both prisoners would receive the effects, as they are both adventurers so they both get maximum security.

So really this houserule isnt required at all.

Oh and to add to the examples of strong small built characters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AhZDJdfUBM

[eggynack]

My game example was Hermione Granger(Emma Watson) and Riddick (Vin Diesel) both get caught. They were both characters with strengths of 20 or so. Hermione's player, Sara, wanted to be treated with 'kid gloves' and to ''have things go easy for her'' as she looked like a near helpless tiny, tiny little girl and expected Riddick to be ''put under maximum security guard'' as he looks as if he was to flinch he could kill someone. The guards did not risk it and put the ''manacles of enfeeblement'' on BOTH of them. Sara said that they would not ''waste'' the manacles on her character, as even though she had a strength of 20, she looked like Hermione.
If she wants her character to be a helpless tiny girl, despite her strength, and she had that as part of her character sheet, that seems like a fair maneuver. However, gotta say, if I found a massive beatstick and a tiny unassuming female adventuring together, and I only had one set of manacles, I'd probably put them on Hermoine. You may not recall this from the books, but Hermoine has frigging magic. Dangerous stuff, that.

[Flickerdart]

Pretty much.

My game example was Hermione Granger(Emma Watson) and Riddick (Vin Diesel) both get caught. They were both characters with strengths of 20 or so. Hermione's player, Sara, wanted to be treated with 'kid gloves' and to ''have things go easy for her'' as she looked like a near helpless tiny, tiny little girl and expected Riddick to be ''put under maximum security guard'' as he looks as if he was to flinch he could kill someone. The guards did not risk it and put the ''manacles of enfeeblement'' on BOTH of them. Sara said that they would not ''waste'' the manacles on her character, as even though she had a strength of 20, she looked like Hermione.

I was asking if anyone though it right that ''high strength'' had to also indicate ''strong physical build''. Everyone just jumped on ''a player can make there character look how ever they want!''
Hermione could have high Dexterity, and be an incredibly skilled rogue. She stabs the guards and they are dead.
Hermione could have high Intelligence, and be a powerful wizard. She casts a spell and the guards are dead.
Hermione could have high Wisdom, and be a mighty cleric. She casts a spell, and the guards are dead.
Hermione could have high Charisma, and be a deadly sorcerer. She casts a spell, and the guards are dead.

Hermione could simply be a high-level character, and beat the guards down on the power of her BAB and HP, rather than Strength.

Anyone who's stupid enough to believe that a Strength score is the sole measure of a character's power deserves their untimely demise.

[Threadnaught]

If she wants her character to be a helpless tiny girl, despite her strength, and she had that as part of her character sheet, that seems like a fair maneuver. However, gotta say, if I found a massive beatstick and a tiny unassuming female adventuring together, and I only had one set of manacles, I'd probably put them on Hermoine. You may not recall this from the books, but Hermoine has frigging magic. Dangerous stuff, that.

I'd put the manacles on Riddick and watch Hermione after forcing her to lay face down, arms and legs spread. She moves or even tries asking to pee and I kill her.


Come on people, it's really not as complicated as you're making it out to be. You have the gun on Riddick and he kills you, you cuff Hermione and dump her in a cell, and she kills you.

[gooddragon1]

A hunefer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hunefer.htm) is a CR 25 medium sized undead that looks humanoid-ish
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44191_C5_Hunefer.jpg

It also has 47 Strength. Do you see large muscles anywhere on that picture? Strength can be fluffed as necessary.

[Zejety]

I think this one's pretty straight forward.
If strength has no correlation with looks in the setting, then the guards will have no reason to treat Hermione differently than Riddick.

If the player has given fluff reasons for why his/her high-STR character doesn't look strong in a setting where the two usually do correlate, and has no feats or similar investments to back it up mechanically, then the DM should approve or disapprove that during character creation. If the DM does, then the player would be within his/her rights to use this for clever roleplaying.

[Perturbulent]

Her call was reasonable, her disagreeing entirely relies on her tact as to whether or not it were a problem. However, the guards would have to make sense motive check to size up her abilities. If they succeed, they should have a pretty good guess as to her relative power.

[Duke of Urrel]

I believe there is more general agreement in this thread than some of us realize, though of course we haven't reached any consensus (which explains why this thread is so long).

Jedipotter, you started the thread by proposing that "Strength is sort of obvious," that is, usually a visible quality that you can see just by looking at someone.

Then some commenters pointed out that it's not an easy matter to estimate somebody's Strength score simply by looking, because some people pack a lot of Strength into comparatively small packages, whereas body builders aren't really quite as strong as they look.

Other commenters countered that whereas strong people may vary somewhat in appearance, this variation is not so great that anybody who looks at Emma Watson (circa 2005) would assume that she is a brawler, or that anybody who looks at Arnold Schwarzenegger (circa 1985) would assume that he is a weakling.

I think most of us find ourselves somewhere in the middle, between the claim that Strength is unmistakably easy to see and the claim that Strength can't be estimated by sight at all.

Already on the first page of this thread, Flickerdart suggested that Strength can be faked with Disguise skill. Let's think about this proposal for a moment. Disguise skill works mainly by changing one's appearance. Yes, play-acting is a part of Disguise skill, but an even bigger part of it is the artful application of clothing and make-up. So if we say that a Strength score can be faked by means of Disguise skill, then aren't we admitting that Strength does, after all, have an appearance?

Let's consider another possibility, just for contrast. The Rules Compendium mentions on page 68 a special use of Sense Motive skill to assess an opponent, that is, to determine whether an opponent's Hit-Dice level is much higher than yours, slightly higher than yours, about the same as yours, slightly lower than yours, or much lower than yours. Your opponent challenges your Sense Motive check with a Bluff check, as usual. The use of Sense Motive skill and Bluff skill indicates that a creature's Hit-Dice level is not a visible quality, but an intangible one, so that you fake it not by means of disguise, but by means of play-acting.*

So if we really want to argue that Strength is not something that you can gauge just by looking, then we should propose something like the Assess Opponent action, using Sense Motive skill, to estimate an opponent's Strength score. The opponent would use Bluff skill to fool the assessor.

On the other hand, if we believe that Strength is something that we can usually estimate simply by looking at someone, then we should propose that this ability can be faked by means of Disguise skill.**
_____________________________
*I actually find the rules on page 68 unnecessarily complicated and somewhat impractical. After all, what use is it to you, a trickster who has acquired a lot of Bluff skill, to make your opponent believe that you are either more powerful or less powerful than you are, with a 50% chance of each? In order to be practical, your deceptive skill would have to be applied unambiguously, either to make yourself appear super-powerful or to make yourself appear to be a pushover, as you prefer. I propose the following change: Make a Bluff check if you prefer to pretend to be of lower level than you are, but make an Intimidate check if you prefer to pretend to be of higher level than you are. Adjust the table on page 68 so that the better the success of the Bluff or Intimidate check, the weaker or stronger your opponent thinks you are, respectively.

**On page 4, Troacctid actually proposed using either Bluff skill or Disguise skill to imitate Strength, which I think nicely expresses our general indecision on this matter.

[Flickerdart]

Already on the first page of this thread, Flickerdart suggested that Strength can be faked with Disguise skill.
No, I said the appearance of muscles can be faked. That's not the same thing as having a high Strength score, as has been determined in this thread over and over and over again.

[Duke of Urrel]

No, I said the appearance of muscles can be faked. That's not the same thing as having a high Strength score, as has been determined in this thread over and over and over again.

Okay then. Would you also say that faking big muscles, by means of Disguise skill, has no practical value as a deterrent, because everybody knows that big muscles have nothing to do with Strength?

Or would you say that enough people are gullible to allow this kind of disguise to work? Even if they're wrong, if enough people believe that muscles are visible signs of Strength, then we can fake Strength by means of Disguise skill.

On the other hand, if we assume that people generally are too smart for this cheap trick (not my assumption, I'll admit), then we have no recourse but Bluff skill, or possibly Intimidate skill – as I proposed above.

[squiggit]

No, I said the appearance of muscles can be faked. That's not the same thing as having a high Strength score, as has been determined in this thread over and over and over again.

The point still stands though. People aren't going to bump into an extremely muscular (since we failed to spot the disguise) guy and think "Oh he's probably weak as a newborn kitten because muscles don't equal strength".

[Flickerdart]

The point still stands though. People aren't going to bump into an extremely muscular (since we failed to spot the disguise) guy and think "Oh he's probably weak as a newborn kitten because muscles don't equal strength".
I have no idea what you're talking about. My comment was in relation to buff people attempting to conceal their buffness by means of the Disguise skill. That's it.

[jedipotter]

You know, as much as I love it when a Jedipotter thread goes to hell, I thought I'd weigh in on this. Can you have a character with eighteen strength that looks like Sheldon Cooper? Yes. Because it is a reasonably well-conditioned actor playing a wimp. That argument on its own defeats itself.

Sheldon has 18 Str? Um, it what alternate universe.... (or are you gonna tell me the actor is also an Olympic level athlete or something?)

[Sir Chuckles]

Sheldon has 18 Str? Um, it what alternate universe.... (or are you gonna tell me the actor is also an Olympic level athlete or something?)

They did not state that Sheldon has 18 strength, nor did they state anything about Jim Parsons.

[atemu1234]

Sheldon has 18 Str? Um, it what alternate universe.... (or are you gonna tell me the actor is also an Olympic level athlete or something?)

I said that most actors are in good shape, leading to decent ability scores, even if they aren't all eighteens.

[Flickerdart]

Sheldon has 18 Str? Um, it what alternate universe.... (or are you gonna tell me the actor is also an Olympic level athlete or something?)
The chance of 18 on any given roll of 3d6 is about 1 in 216. There are 3.3 billion people in the world between ages 15 and 44, in which it would be reasonable for them to engage in sport. That means there are 15.3 million athlete-age people in the world with Strength of 18. Given that there are not that many Olympic athletes (there are fewer than 11,000), it takes far more than 18 STR to be one.

You really need to understand what the various ability scores actually mean before you start trying to make terrible rulings based on them.

[TheIronGolem]

Sheldon has 18 Str? Um, it what alternate universe.... (or are you gonna tell me the actor is also an Olympic level athlete or something?)

Possibly the same alternate universe where atemu1234 suggested that he does. Meanwhile in this universe, what he said is that it's possible for a character to have an 18 STR and still look like Sheldon.

[atemu1234]

Possibly the same alternate universe where atemu1234 suggested that he does. Meanwhile in this universe, what he said is that it's possible for a character to have an 18 STR and still look like Sheldon.

I never said he'd have 18 strength, just that actors have a tendency to be fairly athletic, and if he is, he's liable to have a decent strength score, even if it isn't visible.

[deuxhero]

I skimmed the thread and didn't see anything on this, but did see a lot of people who didn't know it.

Strength is the ONLY ability score of the 6 that can directly compared to real world ability thanks to the carrying capacity rules. While I'm not sure which of the two Olympic weight lifting categories "A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it" falls under, but going for the less favorable, a character needs only a bit more than 17 strength to outlift Hossein Rezazadeh and slightly above 15 to outlift Tatiana Kashirina for the super heavyweight record while for the lightest weight categories you only need slightly more than 14 or 12. 18+ strength is flat out super human by this scale.

[Troacctid]

Constitution can be compared to real-world ability as well (holding your breath).

[Xerlith]

Okay, so I checked my strength scores by comparing the carrying capacity rules to my gym workout.

Going by those, I've got STR 16 (deadlift + bench press for correspondingly lifting off ground and overhead). Now, to double check, not long ago I had the opportunity to carry my girlfriend around for some time. She's a small girl, say, about 110lbs if I remember correctly. I could walk fairly quickly, meaning she's either my light or medium load (let's be sane and say it's medium. I got a bit out of breath after that).

Soo... Time to whip out the measuring tape...
It seems that approx. STR 16 means about 39cm(15,35in) in bicep circumference, 110cm chest, 90cm waist, 62cm thigh. Adult human male, 93kg (205lbs). That's... Small. Like, damn small.
So... It would seem that muscle mass volume grows expotentially after you hit a certain STR score (17?). In that case, I'm waiting impatiently.
Or (more probably) the tables are, after all, not a good analogue to the real world.

Or that and the act that bodybuilders are not powerlifters.

To put it into perspective, I'm one of the smaller guys at my gym. So if I have a trainer with a bicep size of my thigh, does it mean he's a 24+ str monster truck? Well, he bench presses 200kg, so I guess that's untrue.
Now, one of the regulars there is a pro powerlifter. You wouldn't give him a second glance if you didn't know. He's fit, okay. But he's far from bulky.

The thing is, comparing RL to the D&D rules means a lot of catgirls wind up dead. And even if, then we can safely say that there's no real rule for how bulky you are for a given strength score. Because your genes give you different muscle density, because you work out differently, because you focus on strength more than bulk, because you're able to better shift your weight, etc, etc. I'm fairly sure I can arm wrestle my martial artist friend. But hell, his punches hurt a lot more than mine.

Don't try to streamline that, because it doesn't work. It doesn't work in the real life, it shouldn't be a concern in D&D.
Think of the catgirls.

Ah, and I'll leave this here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M957dACQyfU)

[bjoern]

Pretty much.

My game example was Hermione Granger(Emma Watson) and Riddick (Vin Diesel) both get caught. They were both characters with strengths of 20 or so. Hermione's player, Sara, wanted to be treated with 'kid gloves' and to ''have things go easy for her'' as she looked like a near helpless tiny, tiny little girl and expected Riddick to be ''put under maximum security guard'' as he looks as if he was to flinch he could kill someone. The guards did not risk it and put the ''manacles of enfeeblement'' on BOTH of them. Sara said that they would not ''waste'' the manacles on her character, as even though she had a strength of 20, she looked like Hermione.

I was asking if anyone though it right that ''high strength'' had to also indicate ''strong physical build''. Everyone just jumped on ''a player can make there character look how ever they want!''

Without a doubt I would cuff Riddick. I don't want to die to a coffee mug.

[Bart]

AD&D 2nd edition was much better at the Strength issue.

A character can lift as much as his or her maximum load over his or her head.

18/00 could lift overhead a bit over the 1987 world record in the c&j 480 pounds.

Maybe they got that record wrong, as there was a a 265.5kg world record in the clean and jerk at the 1987 world championships....

But 240-250 kgs is double what the D&D 3.5 18 Strength score allows (300 lb) and that would be 18/51-75 for 2nd edition.

18/00 would be around Strength 21 in D&D 3.5

[Morty]

Pretty much.

My game example was Hermione Granger(Emma Watson) and Riddick (Vin Diesel) both get caught. They were both characters with strengths of 20 or so. Hermione's player, Sara, wanted to be treated with 'kid gloves' and to ''have things go easy for her'' as she looked like a near helpless tiny, tiny little girl and expected Riddick to be ''put under maximum security guard'' as he looks as if he was to flinch he could kill someone. The guards did not risk it and put the ''manacles of enfeeblement'' on BOTH of them. Sara said that they would not ''waste'' the manacles on her character, as even though she had a strength of 20, she looked like Hermione.

I was asking if anyone though it right that ''high strength'' had to also indicate ''strong physical build''. Everyone just jumped on ''a player can make there character look how ever they want!''

My, that's one fine mountain you made of this molehill, my friend.

[Mellack]

This talk of Riddik vs. Hermione keeps making me think of the scene out of MiB. If you see a little girl out adventuring, I would be very scared. There is no way that girl is normal.

[bjoern]

Really though, assuming no magic is involved, a high strength means a strong body.
Now some little girl could be strong as heck and hide her build under clothes. She wouldnt have to be hulking or even thick at all.
If the guards were to strip her they would without a doubt be able to tell she was a strong person by her musculature . They would be able to tell that she wasn't a malnourished frail thing.

[Necroticplague]

Of course, their are sources of high STR that don't come from musculature. Like lets take a Granger-esque 16 year old. Not the strongest thing in the world, maybe a bit on the low side. Lets say STR 8. Now, due to coming down with an incurable disease, they undergo Necropolitanism to cheat the reaper. Since undead don't develop bodily, eons later, she still looks like that feeble 16 year old. Heck, just the state of being undead might make her even more fragile-looking after all this time. However, being an ancient undead, her connection to the Negative could have grown to incredible levels (a.k.a.; taken several copies of the Evolved template). This would make her incredibly strong (say, STR 28 after 10 applications), despite not having any better of a physique than average.

Of course, at that stage of Evolution, I'd expect you to be able to practically see the negative energy flowing through her body if she doesn't hide it. Not exactly sure how relevant that is, however.

[bjoern]

Of course, their are sources of high STR that don't come from musculature. Like lets take a Granger-esque 16 year old. Not the strongest thing in the world, maybe a bit on the low side. Lets say STR 8. Now, due to coming down with an incurable disease, they undergo Necropolitanism to cheat the reaper. Since undead don't develop bodily, eons later, she still looks like that feeble 16 year old. Heck, just the state of being undead might make her even more fragile-looking after all this time. However, being an ancient undead, her connection to the Negative could have grown to incredible levels (a.k.a.; taken several copies of the Evolved template). This would make her incredibly strong (say, STR 28 after 10 applications), despite not having any better of a physique than average.

Of course, at that stage of Evolution, I'd expect you to be able to practically see the negative energy flowing through her body if she doesn't hide it. Not exactly sure how relevant that is, however.

This is supernatural situation where all real world reasoning goes right out the window. When you involve magic or supernatural stuff, anything goes.

I guess we need to know: are the Riddick and Hermoine that are captured normal mortals or are they affected by some thing beyond normal?

[A Tad Insane]

This is why you judge adventurers based on their equipment. Do they have a great sword and full plate? Enfeebble them good. A stiletto covered in poison and leather armor? Slap them with a shivering touch, it won't kill them. Fun robes and a pouch with bat poop and the finger nail clippings of Wee Jas? Gag them and tie them up, and if you haven't died you're probably safe.

[deuxhero]

Don't try to streamline that, because it doesn't work. It doesn't work in the real life, it shouldn't be a concern in D&D.
Think of the catgirls.


I mostly pointed it out to demonstrate 18 is outright super human (which is fine in a game with magic, dragons and weird snake people literally made of chaos) and should NOT be compared to real life


Constitution can be compared to real-world ability as well (holding your breath).

True, but
1: There aren't many (if any) feats, class features ect that boost how much you can lift. Not so for how long you can hold your breath
2: Because holding your breath isn't an Olympic sport, it's much harder to find records for it

[Amphetryon]

I mostly pointed it out to demonstrate 18 is outright super human (which is fine in a game with magic, dragons and weird snake people literally made of chaos) and should NOT be compared to real life



True, but
1: There aren't many (if any) feats, class features ect that boost how much you can lift. Not so for how long you can hold your breath
2: Because holding your breath isn't an Olympic sport, it's much harder to find records for it

22 minutes, 22 seconds underwater, apparently (http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/06/05/german-diver-sets-breath-holding-record-22-minutes-22-seconds/).

[Drelua]

I guess we need to know: are the Riddick and Hermoine that are captured normal mortals or are they affected by some thing beyond normal?

I think the main problem with that is that we can't know. In a world with such an abundance of magic, both in terms of variety and commonality, it's impossible for a guard to look at a person and know if there's anything magical about them. They might see a person who's literally radiating magical energy, when they're actually just a mage with a silent image up. Then they might see a fairly regular-looking warrior, who they couldn't possibly realize killed a dragon last week. Maybe it's acidic breath damaged his armor so it looks old and simple, but it's actually powerfully enchanted. There's just so many things that could be going on, and they could easily be impossible for a normal guardsman to notice.

Basically, while it is generally possible to notice a strong-looking person, there's so many things that could be going on that it's impossible to know for sure.


Without a doubt I would cuff Riddick. I don't want to die to a coffee mug.

Tea, actually. :smallwink:

[TheIronGolem]

I never said he'd have 18 strength, just that actors have a tendency to be fairly athletic, and if he is, he's liable to have a decent strength score, even if it isn't visible.

I think you may have misunderstood my post; I was agreeing with you.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Not that this thread particularly needs yet another person's opinion, I thought I might bring something up. Under the standard D&D 3.5 ruleset, we're dealing with a world in which:



Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics.


Is true. Therefore, it seems to me that someone being supernaturally (but non-magically) strong, and significantly stronger than their appearance would suggest (to our real-world sensibilities) is entirely reasonable. It may be because they are distantly related to some sort of fantastic creature, or were born in an area of magical convergence; it may be something which does not have an obvious source or cause. Of course, if someone wanted to take some sort of mechanical benefit from this (such as not being manacled/enfeebled/etc. by the authorities when captured) then they would have to put some resources into doing so. The simplest way of this would be ranks in Bluff (or, perhaps, disguise) since Bluff is used to make someone "...[react] as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or [believe] something that you want [them] to believe." Of course, if you wanted to house rule a trait, feat, flaw, or other such thing to allow them to be treated as significantly weaker/stronger/whatever than they really are, that'd be perfectly reasonable as well. If you wanted to house rule that certain stat scores could cause certain bluffs/disguises to be more difficult (or even impossible), I suppose that's alright, so long as this is established before people arrive at the table (after all, we are talking about playing 3.5 and not Calvinball, are we not?).

[Almagesto]

I do more often than not tie Strength to the physique of my character, because if it doesn't make sense in my head I won't be very happy playing him/her. On the off-chance I ever want to play a 5'0'' 90lb female elf with 18 Str, I'd probably try to come up with SOME reason for her strength. Like going the "comic book hero" route, in that she was exposed to some strange radiation (read: magical energy) in the past that made her insanely strong for her appearance. Or bitten by a werebear (or some weird magical beast), cured just in time of lycanthropy and left with unnatural strength and sadly also hair in places elves shouldn't have hair. Or maybe her adventuring mom was stranded on some other plane while she was pregnant (like the early weeks, before she knew it) and it had some weird effects on her unborn child.

Anyway, you get the idea. I'd like to note that I'm madly in love with the Forgotten Realms (pre-spellplague) and in that setting there are probably dozens of other (and better) reasons why someone grows up to be a lot stronger than they look. As long as it makes a bit of sense I'd roll with it

That is a pretty nice trick. I'm definitely doing that for my next PC. As a DM, however, I tend to foce my players to describe their PC's appearance based on their stats - so for them I think I wouldn't allow a wimpy yet strong PC unless they used this line of reasoning as well.

[Vaynor]

The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.