Optimizing Color Spray

[Enochi]

Hello all. I am trying to create a character Based around the Color Spray spell and am trying to figure the best way to go about it.

Here its what I have found so far that maybe be helpful.
Spell focus: Illusion
Greater Spell Focus: Illusion
Gnome Magic Racial Trait
Spellslinger Arcane Gun(Risky)
Oracle Heavens revelation Awesome display(practically a must)
Witches Evil Eye hex
Mystic Theruge Spell Synthesis
Tenebrous Spell
Threnodic Spell
Heighten Spell

Thats all I can think of right now. I don't play casters terribly much so I would appreciate the help thanks!

[dascarletm]

I'm unfamiliar with some of those feats. Do any of them let you increase the HD cap on color spray?

[Zanos]

I'm unfamiliar with some of those feats. Do any of them let you increase the HD cap on color spray?

Awesome Display (Su): Your phantasmagoric displays accurately model the mysteries of the night sky, dumbfounding all who behold them. Each creature affected by your illusion (pattern) spells is treated as if its total number of Hit Dice were equal to its number of Hit Dice minus your Charisma modifier (if positive).

That probably won't be enough at higher levels, though.

[Enochi]

Lets see:
18 starting cha
+2 Racial
+6 Headband
+5 Book
+5 Level increases

Thats a 36? which is +13 surely there is a way to get it higher.

[Sith_Happens]

That probably won't be enough at higher levels, though.

Stunning multiple enemies for a round is still is good use of a spell. Besides pumping the DC, I'd focus on increasing Color Spray's range and area.

[emeraldstreak]

Age your character.

[Giddonihah]

In a Mythic game, Mythic Color spray would combine quite well with Awesome Display.

[Spore]

Do not forget Spell Perfection. Not only does it double the DCs gained from Spell Foci. It also give you the power to apply a Metamagic feat for free (yes, even quickened). Combine the evil eye witch hex with the dual cursed oracle's Misfortune revelation.

You'll end somewhere with a quickened DC 35 Color Spray onto which the monster has to make 2 saves and take the worst (or 4 and take the worst if you use the hex and the misfortune). You only need a way around immunities like theundead creature type

[Enochi]

Lets see

18 starting cha
+2 Racial
+6 Headband
+5 Book
+5 Level increases
+3 Old age
+4 Cognatogen

43

[Ilorin Lorati]

A Tiefling racial variant with +2 Cha will have a total of +4 effective Charisma score for its class abilities. That may be a better option than gnome for this purpose.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Lets see

18 starting cha
+2 Racial
+6 Headband
+5 Book
+5 Level increases
+3 Old age
+4 Cognatogen

43

+3 is Venerable, not Old. So you might as well be Old at +2 and only take the -4 to physicals.

[grarrrg]

Lets see

18 starting cha
+2 Racial
+6 Headband
+5 Book
+5 Level increases
+3 Old age
+4 Cognatogen

43
(looted this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17185279&postcount=2) for ideas)
If Mythic is allowed you can squeeze an extra +5 in.
Doing..."something"...with a Succubus can get you another +2


A Tiefling racial variant with +2 Cha will have a total of +4 effective Charisma score for its class abilities. That may be a better option than gnome for this purpose.

Only if we use Sorcerer as our Main Casting class (and choose Abyssal or Infernal Bloodline).

[Ilorin Lorati]

Only if we use Sorcerer as our Main Casting class (and choose Abyssal or Infernal Bloodline).

The OP wants to optimize specifically for Color Spray; I was pointing out what would likely be a better option for them than generic gnome. If you have a better bloodline, I'd be happy to hear it; considering the only Charisma caster with Color Spray on its list is Sorcerer, the former is probably a fair bet for what the OP wants to do. The latter is not so sure, but Infernal is a pretty good choice.

[squiggit]

Only if we use Sorcerer as our Main Casting class (and choose Abyssal or Infernal Bloodline).

He's not referring to Fiendish Sorcery.

There's an effect on the " variant abilities table" that replaces your SLA and one of them is a flat +2 to charisma (other options include at-will levitate, being able to subsist on dust and ash, being able to wield large weapons, a bite attack, +1 hp/level, scent, a bonus to CMB .. and so on)

Aasimar incidentally have the same option on their alternate racial table.

[Enochi]

So....lets see here

Kyton-Spawn Teifling Cross blooded Shadow/Abyssal Sorcerer 4/Dual Curse Oracle 4/Mystic Theruge 10/Alchemist Mindchemist 1/x 1
(Shackleborn)

18 starting cha
+2 Racial
+2 additional(Variant Heritage)
+6 Headband
+5 Book
+5 Level increases
+2 Old age
+4 Cognatogen
+2 Succubus
Count as Higher
+2 Fiendish Sorcery: Tiefling sorcerers with the Abyssal or Infernal bloodlines treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer class abilities.
+2 Improved Fiendish Sorcery If you are a sorcerer and possess the Rakshasa bloodline or Shadow bloodline, treat your Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer class abilities.

Total: 50 assuming a dm would allow all this... That would give +20 which would mean creatures of 22 hit die or less would be fully effected by my color spray.
If we add mythic in it would be more effective.

[grarrrg]

The OP wants to optimize specifically for Color Spray;...considering the only Charisma caster with Color Spray on its list is Sorcerer

The main "actual use Color Spray (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/heavens) at high levels" ability is from Heavens Oracle, which happens to give Color Spray as it's first Bonus Spell.

So the question is, Oracle all, or Oracle 1/Sorcerer X?


He's not referring to Fiendish Sorcery.

There's an effect on the " variant abilities table" that replaces your SLA and one of them is a flat +2 to charisma (other options include at-will levitate, being able to subsist on dust and ash, being able to wield large weapons, a bite attack, +1 hp/level, scent, a bonus to CMB .. and so on)

Point taken, but my point still stands.
Variant Race Tiefling, get lucky on the bonus table AND go Abyssal/Infernal for the Fiendish Sorcery bonus.
That's +6 CHA right there.
Would need to use the Oracle 1/Sorcerer X option.

[NightbringerGGZ]

The main "actual use Color Spray (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/heavens) at high levels" ability is from Heavens Oracle, which happens to give Color Spray as it's first Bonus Spell.

So the question is, Oracle all, or Oracle 1/Sorcerer X?.

Going with 1 level of Sorcerer is quite tempting as you can go Crossblooded relatively consequence free. You trade your Final Revelation and a caster level for some powerful bonuses via Bloodline Arcana. The Undead & Groveborn bloodlines let you use mind-affecting spells on humanoid undead and plants for instance, and there are a few other options available via bloodlines. You also get access to some utility spells off the Wizard list, which is a nice little bonus.

[andreww]

I would stick with single classed Oracle. While you will largely use colour spray as your major offence you still want access to higher level spells quickly. A 2 level delay over a cleric or wizard is painful.

Normally for an Oracle I would be looking at half elf for the extra spells known FCB and Paragon Surge. However I would be quite tempted by the Wayang. instead.

Now, you dont get a racial bonus to Charisma, which is an issue, but you do get to add wizard illusion spells to your spells known using your FCB. Why is this important? There are two reasons:

1. Going dual cursed replaces your level 1 Mystery Spell with Ill Omen. The Wayang can pick up Colour Spray at level 4 using their FCB and be throwing persistent colur sprays and then forcing a target to reroll as an immediate action if they fail.

2. The Cleric list is almost bereft of other useful illusion spells making your spell focus and greater spell focus pretty useless outside of Colour Spray. The FCB allows you to add 17 extra level 1-8 illusion spells to your list.

[Chronos]

At high levels, switch to Prismatic Spray and just say it's the same spell.

[grarrrg]

Now, you dont get a racial bonus to Charisma, which is an issue, but you do get to add wizard illusion spells to your spells known using your FCB. Why is this important? There are two reasons:

1. Going dual cursed replaces your level 1 Mystery Spell with Ill Omen. The Wayang can pick up Colour Spray at level 4 using their FCB and be throwing persistent colur sprays and then forcing a target to reroll as an immediate action if they fail.

Wayangs give a level penalty to the Off-List spells though. So there's that to consider.


On a related note, the Veiled Illusionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/veiled-illusionist) PrC will add Wiz/Sorc Illusion spells to your list with -no- level penalty (do note, if they aren't on your List already, they are added to your List but NOT your Known).

[Dalebert]

You only need a way around immunities like theundead creature type

http://www.pathfindersrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/coaxing-spell-metamagic
"A mind-affecting spell modified by this feat affects mindless oozes and vermin as if they weren't mindless."

http://www.pathfindersrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/threnodic-spell-metamagic
"Change a mind-affecting spell so it can affect undead, but not living creatures."

A cool staff would be one with a regular color spray (1 chg), color spray with coaxing MM applied (2 chgs), and color spray with threnodic applied (2 chgs).

I have an NPC that's tagging along with my group, an oracle. He uses the Hell out of this spell but it's been mostly ineffectual. The one time he actually used it on something with low will saves, it was vermin and turns out they're immune. That was my mistake. I retconned it immediately and gave him a chance to realize it wouldn't work and he succeeded and didn't cast it. He hasn't done anything to optimize. It's just as an oracle, he has a very limited spell list and it's mostly devoted to restorative stuph because that's something the party seemed sorely lacking in.

[Zaq]

Going with 1 level of Sorcerer is quite tempting as you can go Crossblooded relatively consequence free. You trade your Final Revelation and a caster level for some powerful bonuses via Bloodline Arcana. The Undead & Groveborn bloodlines let you use mind-affecting spells on humanoid undead and plants for instance, and there are a few other options available via bloodlines. You also get access to some utility spells off the Wizard list, which is a nice little bonus.

Your avatar . . . is that . . . is that Tuku? Didn't expect to see that here. Awesome.

[Yanisa]

Another point for oracle: they can get Divine Protection (aka Divine Grace The Feat), with 40+ charisma that is a lot of bonus on saves. :smalltongue:

[NightbringerGGZ]

Your avatar . . . is that . . . is that Tuku? Didn't expect to see that here. Awesome.

It is. I worked on a fan-game for MagiNation years ago and as a learning experience I taped my cards (in sleeves) up next to my monitor and recreated them as sprites. It was a fun project and one I keep thinking about revisiting. Especially since the show did such a disservice to the to game's original story line =P.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't think it's worth losing caster advancement to dipping, but a 1 level drop in Spellslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/spellslinger) Wizard to boost the save DCs of area spells.


Arcane Gun (Su)

The spellslinger gains the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat, and one or two of his firearms can be arcane guns. Arcane guns are normal one-handed or two-handed firearms in the hands of others, as they were normal firearms before the spellslinger imbued them with magic. In a spellslinger’s hands, they both fire projectiles (bullets and pellets) and cast magic. At 1st level, the spellslinger decides whether he wants to have one or two arcane guns at a time. If the spellslinger chooses to have only one arcane gun at a time, spells fired Classes through the arcane gun that require an attack roll have a ×3 critical hit multiplier.

A spellslinger can cast any ranged touch attack, cone, line, or ray spells through his arcane gun. When he casts through the arcane gun, the gun’s enhancement bonus (if any) is a bonus to the spell’s attack rolls or to the spell’s saving throw DCs. Yet there are dangers inherent to this method. If any of the spells’ attack rolls result in a natural 1 (a misfire), or a natural 20 is rolled on any saving throw made against the spell by a target (an overload), the arcane gun gains the broken condition. If the arcane gun already has the broken condition, the gun explodes. When a gun explodes, it lets loose a blast of force, or if the spell has the acid, cold, electricity, or sonic descriptor, it deals that type of energy damage instead. In the case of spells with multiple descriptors, roll randomly among the descriptors to determine the type of damage dealt by the blast. The blast is centered on a single intersection within the spellslinger’s space (spellslinger’s choice) and deals 1d6 points of the appropriate energy damage or force damage per level of the spell cast. Any creature within the blast other than the spellslinger can make a Reflex saving throw to halve the damage. The Reflex save DC is calculated using the spell level of the spell being sacrificed.

A spellslinger can attune his arcane guns at the start of each day. That attunement lasts until the spellslinger attunes to a new gun, even if a formally attuned gun is destroyed.

This ability replaces arcane bond.

You also start with a battered gun, like a gunslinger. +5 bonus on save DCs is nothing to scoff at.

[gr8artist]

So....lets see here

Kyton-Spawn Teifling Cross blooded Shadow/Abyssal Sorcerer 4/Dual Curse Oracle 4/Mystic Theruge 10/Alchemist Mindchemist 1/x 1
(Shackleborn)

18 starting cha
+2 Racial
+2 additional(Variant Heritage)
+6 Headband
+5 Book
+5 Level increases
+2 Old age
+4 Cognatogen
+2 Succubus
Count as Higher
+2 Fiendish Sorcery: Tiefling sorcerers with the Abyssal or Infernal bloodlines treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer class abilities.
+2 Improved Fiendish Sorcery If you are a sorcerer and possess the Rakshasa bloodline or Shadow bloodline, treat your Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer class abilities.

Total: 50 assuming a dm would allow all this... That would give +20 which would mean creatures of 22 hit die or less would be fully effected by my color spray.
If we add mythic in it would be more effective.
I came in here to correct your interpretation of FS and IFS and found out that I have been wrong in every campaign.
But I still don't see how you get +4 from your race and variant heritage. The heritage gives you +2 instead of the -2 you'd normally get, then FS and IFS boost this afterward.

[Bluydee]

He's Kyton-Spawn. That replaces the normal modifiers.

[Crimson Wolf]

Dont forget some potions of Eagles Splendor

[Dalebert]

Dont forget some potions of Eagles Splendor

Meh. Hopefully they already have magic items giving an enhancement bonus so it wouldn't stack.

[grarrrg]

I came in here to correct your interpretation of FS and IFS and found out that I have been wrong in every campaign.
But I still don't see how you get +4 from your race and variant heritage. The heritage gives you +2 instead of the -2 you'd normally get, then FS and IFS boost this afterward.

He's Kyton-Spawn. That replaces the normal modifiers.

Half-right.
We went over this about a dozen posts up.

Variant Tiefling can get +2 CHA.
There is also a Table of Variant Tiefling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling)abilities. Roll a d100 and you get a random bonus (or two).
One of the potential bonuses is +2 CHA (option #9).

So +4 Racial CHA, + Fiendish Sorcery bonuses.

[Sith_Happens]

Okay, the DC is plenty high now, how about making it bigger?

[Enochi]

Lets Try a level 10 build.
Demon Spawn Tiefling
Sorcerer 4/Oracle 4/Mystic Thurge 2
1: Improved Fiendish Sorcery
3: Spell focus: Illusion
5: Greater Spell focus: Illusion
7: Spell focus: Necromancy
9: Threnodic Spell

Cha:
18 Base
+4 Racial
+2 Sucubus
+1 Level
+4 Enhancement
+2 Old age
Count as Higher
+2 Fiendish Sorcery: Tiefling sorcerers with the Abyssal or Infernal bloodlines treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer class abilities.
+2 Improved Fiendish Sorcery If you are a sorcerer and possess the Rakshasa bloodline or Shadow bloodline, treat your Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer class abilities.

So color spray can fully effect up to 14 HD monsters. DC for it is 25 are their any good items to raise this? Should I Use Dual curse oracle to make them have to save against it twice? I have the ability to cast it as a 1st level spell 10 times as a Sorcerer and 9 times slightly reduced as an Oracle.

[Bluydee]

I know. The guy pointed out the +2 from rolling the table already. I was clearing up the extra +2 from being kyton.

[andreww]

1: Improved Fiendish Sorcery
3: Spell focus: Illusion
5: Greater Spell focus: Illusion
7: Spell focus: Necromancy
9: Threnodic Spell
So color spray can fully effect up to 14 HD monsters. DC for it is 25 are their any good items to raise this? Should I Use Dual curse oracle to make them have to save against it twice? I have the ability to cast it as a 1st level spell 10 times as a Sorcerer and 9 times slightly reduced as an Oracle.
Applying Persistent Spell will have far more impact on the likelihood that your targets fail the save than adding a single point of DC from something like Improved Fiendish Sorcery. Sure you can get it from a Rod but they eat up cash, weight quite a lot, prevent you using a decent shield and can only be used a limited number of times.

I would also strongly be considering both Quicken Spell and Widen Spell. Personally I wouldn't touch MT for this unless going for early entry. Threndonic is probably unnecessary, sure undead are immune to colour spray but if you go straight Oracle or Oracle 1/Sorc x you have a load of other spell options to help deal with them.

[Dalebert]

I recommend a lesser MM rod of threnodic spell. She is optimizing for color spray so it would be nice if it could be used on undead. Get the coaxing MM rod for vermin as well and you'll be all set. 3 times per day each should be plenty.