Negative/Positive Energy Planes and Inhabitants

[Reshy]

Just wondering, but there's no air on these two planes; and outsiders need to breathe. So, how do these creatures live on these planes when they cannot breathe and need to?

[Shoat]

There are options besides "breathes exactly the way humans do and requires the exact same atmosphere to do so" and "doesn't need to breathe".

When it says "there's no air", there's still room for there to be an atmosphere composed of something different than what mortals would need. In which case outsiders are simply able to breathe that special atmosphere on their home plane and, in addition, they can breathe "normal" air when summoned to the material plane.

[Khatoblepas]

The Xag-Yi and Xag-Ya, as well as Vivacious creatures (the only natives of the P/N Energy Planes), are Incorporeal. They lack a physical body. Lacking a physical body, they don't need to breathe*. Other creatures, such as Deathless and Undead, likewise don't need to breathe and can survive on their respective planes just fine.

*Libris Mortis, page 140

[jedipotter]

Just wondering, but there's no air on these two planes; and outsiders need to breathe. So, how do these creatures live on these planes when they cannot breathe and need to?

This is just one of the little quarks missed in editing.

My houserule is outsiders do not need to breathe. It does not change their power level.

[troqdor1316]

Just because you disagree with a rule does not mean the rule is an error in editing. Your houserule contributes nothing to this thread because it is a homebrew concept.

That said, Shoat is probably correct. After all, many things on the material plane breathe water, which (although sharing some elements) is not air. Not everything that breathes needs air to breathe, but everything that breathes can still be suffocated, drown, etc. even if they do not need to breathe specifically material plane air.

[Milo v3]

The negative energy plane is also meant to be home to undead since they are immune to the negative effects of the plane.

They can also survive really well on the positive energy plane... but that's more an oversight than anything....

[Svata]

The Xag-Yi and Xag-Ya, as well as Vivacious creatures (the only natives of the P/N Energy Planes)


The Ravid (MMI, page 213, native to the positive energy plane) would like a word with you.

[troqdor1316]

The Ravid (MMI, page 213, native to the positive energy plane) would like a word with you.

That is one strangely obscure reference, my friend. It's not often I stumble across a MM1 monster I don't remember.

[Sian]

The Ravid (MMI, page 213, native to the positive energy plane) would like a word with you.

And so would Lumi (MMIII, page 98, native to Positive Energy Plane) as well...

[Svata]

That is one strangely obscure reference, my friend. It's not often I stumble across a MM1 monster I don't remember.

Eh, I only remember them because they're right next to the Remorhaz, which I quite like.

[sideswipe]

Eh, I only remember them because they're right next to the Remorhaz, which I quite like.

i actually like the ravid, it was i think the first monster i ever fought. and at the time seemed impossible to hit.

[Extra Anchovies]

Eh, I only remember them because they're right next to the Remorhaz, which I quite like.

The Remorhaz is beautiful. And also really under-CR'd for a party that doesn't always hang back and blast. That thing will tear PCs apart as soon as they're in reach:

DM: "The monster lunges forward, tearing at you with its massive jaws. You take 18 damage from the bite..."

Unlucky PC: "Okay, that's not too bad."

DM: "Plus 41 damage from the searing heat coming off of its body."

PC: "#@%$!"

But anyways, yeah. The Ravid is a nice one, it's the one-armed lizard that has just so much positive energy than nonliving things around it start moving around and fighting stuff.

[afroakuma]

There are actually quite a few denizens of the two planes, which is odd considering how miserable they both are.

With regard to houserules needed to make those planes work, the big editorial oversight and oh it's a bad one: the Positive Energy Plane needs to be ruled to be capable of destroying constructs and damaging undead, and creatures native to that plane need immunity to its effects.

[Psyren]

"Outsiders native to the Positive Energy Plane (such as ravids) are immune to the detrimental effects typical to the plane."

While this passage is likely referring to the healing explosion, suffocation could easily be considered "a typical detrimental effect" as well. Thus, they are unaffected by their inability to breathe.

Furthermore:

"There is no air in the Positive Energy Plane. While the plane is not a true vacuum (the positive energy provides the equivalent of normal atmospheric pressure), suffocation is a great danger. Even the fast healing given to all inhabitants of the plane has no effect on suffocation. Travelers on this plane must bring their own atmosphere or forgo breathing while here."

Only travelers must bring their own air - natives are not mentioned.

[Chronos]

We also had another thread here recently talking about ravids.

[jedipotter]

Just because you disagree with a rule does not mean the rule is an error in editing. Your houserule contributes nothing to this thread because it is a homebrew concept.

It's true it could be worse then just bad editing. It could be shear stupidity and incontinence......or worse.

It contributes to the thread a lot: It shows the rules and the ones who made them are not perfect. And you get three choices. Ignore it, and be like one of them wind-up toys stuck walking against a wall. You can search every line of every book for something that says or does not say something or not something to fix it. See the post above about ''only travelers need to breathe''.

And third you can fix it.



That said, Shoat is probably correct. After all, many things on the material plane breathe water, which (although sharing some elements) is not air. Not everything that breathes needs air to breathe, but everything that breathes can still be suffocated, drown, etc. even if they do not need to breathe specifically material plane air.


Sure, I guess you could say creatures on the energy planes breathe energy. After all there is no D&D rule that says ''you must breathe air or water''.

[Psyren]

But you don't need to houserule at all. Outsiders native to the PEP can't breathe, but it does not hinder them in any way while there - simple.

[jedipotter]

But you don't need to houserule at all. Outsiders native to the PEP can't breathe, but it does not hinder them in any way while there - simple.

Is this a rule? Where is it?

[Elderand]

It's true it could be worse then just bad editing. It could be shear stupidity and incontinence......or worse.

Just because someone has difficulty controlling their bladder doesn't mean they are bad at designing RPG. I was also not aware that stupidity grew on people like wool grow on sheeps.

[Psyren]

Is this a rule? Where is it?

I posted both quotes above already, from Manual of the Planes.

[jedipotter]

I posted both quotes above already, from Manual of the Planes.

Sorry...BUZZ. Manual of the Planes is D&D 3.0. So how about D&D 3.5? Did they do a MotP 3.5? Could they not take like ten pages and put it in the Planewalksers Handbook?


And your rules are the worst circumstantial rules ever. I want you to show me the rule that says ''native creatures on the Energy planes do not need to breathe''. You can't just say something is a ''rule'' biased on what is not said in a book. It's like saying ''rain is made out of gold coins'' as there is no rule that says ''rain is little drops of water''.

[Ionbound]

Oh dear. Are we going to turn what was a perfectly reasonable question about the planes into another Jedipotter hate-thread? I hope not.

[Psyren]

Sorry...BUZZ. Manual of the Planes is D&D 3.0. So how about D&D 3.5? Did they do a MotP 3.5? Could they not take like ten pages and put it in the Planewalksers Handbook?

Buzz right back! It was updated to 3.5 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) and that passage was unchanged. Nice try!



And your rules are the worst circumstantial rules ever. I want you to show me the rule that says ''native creatures on the Energy planes do not need to breathe''. You can't just say something is a ''rule'' biased on what is not said in a book. It's like saying ''rain is made out of gold coins'' as there is no rule that says ''rain is little drops of water''.

It doesn't say "they don't need to breathe." It says "they are immune to detrimental effects caused by their home plane." Suffocating due to the lack of air is a detrimental effect. If they are anywhere else - like on the material plane at the bottom of a lake - they would need to breathe.

[jedipotter]

It doesn't say "they don't need to breathe." It says "they are immune to detrimental effects caused by their home plane." Suffocating due to the lack of air is a detrimental effect. If they are anywhere else - like on the material plane at the bottom of a lake - they would need to breathe.

Well, you say ''suffocation is a detrimental effect''.....but do the rules say that? I don't think so.....

[afroakuma]

Oh dear. Are we going to turn what was a perfectly reasonable question about the planes into another Jedipotter hate-thread? I hope not.

I need to reopen my planes thread now, don't I. :smallsigh:


Well, you say ''suffocation is a detrimental effect''.....but do the rules say that? I don't think so.....

Do you have a point to make or are you just here to attack the concept of rules? Again?

[Psyren]

Well, you say ''suffocation is a detrimental effect''.....but do the rules say that? I don't think so.....

Unfortunately, unless you can find a rules definition of "detrimental" (or "effect" for that matter, and isn't that a fun debate) we have to default to the dictionary meanings for these terms.

[afroakuma]

Unfortunately, unless you can find a rules definition of "detrimental" (or "effect" for that matter, and isn't that a fun debate) we have to default to the dictionary meanings for these terms.

Or suffocation, for that matter, since the rules don't specify the outcome of that. Common sense and the dictionary do, of course, but heavens forbid one consult either of those when running a game.

[Milo v3]

Well, you say ''suffocation is a detrimental effect''.....but do the rules say that? I don't think so.....

Well I don't know, but dying automatically sounds pretty detrimental to me. :smalltongue:

[Khatoblepas]

It's a self-fixing problem, really. If they are immune to suffocation due to being natives, then they exist on that plane.

If they aren't, then they're all dead anyway, and the players will never encounter them, because you rarely ever have corpses of Outsiders as a random encounter.

Or, Lumi Cities have air bubbles in them to allow them to breathe normally, if the DM wants that in their setting.

(Also, sorry for forgetting Ravids and Lumi earlier - I mostly play 2e where Ravids are only encountered on the Material Plane [their fluff text says that they are indistinguishable from the plane itself on the PMP], and Lumi... I don't think ever show up?)

[torrasque666]

With regard to houserules needed to make those planes work, the big editorial oversight and oh it's a bad one: the Positive Energy Plane needs to be ruled to be capable of destroying constructs and damaging undead, and creatures native to that plane need immunity to its effects.

Lies. How else am I going to abuse my Juggernaut bull rushing people through a gate to the PEP, and then sitting there as he is immune to both effects?

[afroakuma]

you rarely ever have corpses of Outsiders as a random encounter.

Speak for yourself! :smallbiggrin:


Lumi... I don't think ever show up?)

They were visilights in 2E.

[Khatoblepas]

Speak for yourself! :smallbiggrin:

I'd like to hear about how outsider corpses as encounters would become commonplace! Not like, undead outsiders, just their bodies.



They were visilights in 2E.

Weren't the Visilights/Parai something different? I thought they were Leather-Dressed Hellraiser people who drained beauty and turned attractive people into more Parai?

[Sian]

Or, Lumi Cities have air bubbles in them to allow them to breathe normally, if the DM wants that in their setting.

the Lumi Statblock explicitly says "immune to Suffication", (although its more in mind with being immune to stangulation, having a floating head a few inches off the neck) so ...

[jedipotter]

Oh dear. Are we going to turn what was a perfectly reasonable question about the planes into another Jedipotter hate-thread? I hope not.

All threads are Jedipotter hate-threads. The hate runs very deep.....




Do you have a point to make or are you just here to attack the concept of rules? Again?

Sure. The rules are not perfect. They were written by whoever and dumped into book form with no editing or oversight. And they did not have that ''13th person'', who was, you know a gamer, even take a glance at the rules and point out anything they saw wrong. They just had a bunch of ''yes people'' bow down and say ''wow, your better then Shakespeare!''

So from time to time and page to page, you will find rules that make no sense or are a problem. And you have three choices:

1. Ignore it. These are not the rules your looking for...

2. You can look through all the other rules and try to find one that covers what you need, no matter how vague or odd it might be and not say what you want. But as long as it sort of says what you want and you can twist it to what you want, your good.

3. You can fix it. You can make your own stuff up. Sure, sure the folks that wrote the rules down and did not edit or check anything were, er, ''great'' and all. But you are here now and it's your game, so you can just go ahead and fix things however the way you want them.

[afroakuma]

I'd like to hear about how outsider corpses as encounters would become commonplace! Not like, undead outsiders, just their bodies.

Play with Flickerdart. Everything corpses will become commonplace.


Weren't the Visilights/Parai something different? I thought they were Leather-Dressed Hellraiser people who drained beauty and turned attractive people into more Parai?

Yyyyyyyup. Dropped the ball on that one in two ways. Fantastic.


Sure. The rules are not perfect.

Nobody claims they are, but there's a vast gulf between "imperfect" and "useless."


They were written by whoever and dumped into book form with no editing or oversight.

Well that's definitely untrue. Of course, it's hyperbole, so why am I even bothering.

[Milo v3]

Sure. The rules are not perfect. They were written by whoever and dumped into book form with no editing or oversight. And they did not have that ''13th person'', who was, you know a gamer, even take a glance at the rules and point out anything they saw wrong. They just had a bunch of ''yes people'' bow down and say ''wow, your better then Shakespeare!''

So from time to time and page to page, you will find rules that make no sense or are a problem. And you have three choices:

1. Ignore it. These are not the rules your looking for...

2. You can look through all the other rules and try to find one that covers what you need, no matter how vague or odd it might be and not say what you want. But as long as it sort of says what you want and you can twist it to what you want, your good.

3. You can fix it. You can make your own stuff up. Sure, sure the folks that wrote the rules down and did not edit or check anything were, er, ''great'' and all. But you are here now and it's your game, so you can just go ahead and fix things however the way you want them.

You do know there is a Homebrew section of this forum for conversations about houserules and made up rules that don't give a damn about RAW?

[Reshy]

I'm trying to make some Entropic creatures from the Planar Handbook, but their protection from negative energy planes only applies as follows:

"Negative Adaptation (Ex): Entropic creatures do not lose hit points or need to make Fortitude saves due to being in a negative-dominant environment."

Nothing about suffocation. Suffocation is a constitution check, not a fortitude save.

[Milo v3]

I'm trying to make some Entropic creatures from the Planar Handbook, but their protection from negative energy planes only applies as follows:

"Negative Adaptation (Ex): Entropic creatures do not lose hit points or need to make Fortitude saves due to being in a negative-dominant environment."

Nothing about suffocation. Suffocation is a constitution check, not a fortitude save.

So, basically, it'll end up dead but it'll still be on full hit points :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

All threads are Jedipotter hate-threads. The hate runs very deep.....

Yeesh, give your arms a break from that cross :smallbiggrin:



2. You can look through all the other rules and try to find one that covers what you need, no matter how vague or odd it might be and not say what you want. But as long as it sort of says what you want and you can twist it to what you want, your good.

Hold it - you're the one trying to argue that suffocating somehow isn't detrimental and you claim we're the ones "twisting?" :smalltongue:



3. You can fix it. You can make your own stuff up. Sure, sure the folks that wrote the rules down and did not edit or check anything were, er, ''great'' and all. But you are here now and it's your game, so you can just go ahead and fix things however the way you want them.

Obviously "make something up" is always on the table. But apart from not being very intellectually stimulating ("outsiders don't breathe" probably didn't take much cogitation to come up with, at least I hope it didn't) - as Milo rightly stated, this isn't the forum for that kind of exercise.

[jedipotter]

- as Milo rightly stated, this isn't the forum for that kind of exercise.

The amount of spin is amazing.

So you saying that you can't talk about homebrew, or even mention it, on any forum except the homebrew forum?

That would be as bad as someone saying ''do talk about your personal spin of D&D'' on the forums.

Not everyone is a rule-slave.



I'm trying to make some Entropic creatures from the Planar Handbook, but their protection from negative energy planes only applies as follows:

"Negative Adaptation (Ex): Entropic creatures do not lose hit points or need to make Fortitude saves due to being in a negative-dominant environment."

Nothing about suffocation. Suffocation is a constitution check, not a fortitude save.

Pick one:

1. Ignore It

2. Use the out of context line that says ''only travelers need to breathe'' to spin the rule that says ''Native creatures don't need to breathe''.

3. Houserlue it. My houserule is outsiders don't breathe. Fell free to make your own...

[Svata]

The amount of spin is amazing.

So you saying that you can't talk about homebrew, or even mention it, on any forum except the homebrew forum?

No one said that. They said that there are answers are wihn the rules so there is no need to bring homebrew/houserules into it to begin with. You are attacking the rulss and saying "These are dumb/bad. Use mine instead." That is the purpose of the homebrew forum.


Not everyone is a rule-slave

Nice ad hominem you got there.


2. Use the out of context line that says ''only travelers need to breathe'' to spin the rule that says ''Native creatures don't need to breathe

Not seeing the spin, there

[Milo v3]

2. Use the out of context line that says ''only travelers need to breathe'' to spin the rule that says ''Native creatures don't need to breathe''.

only travelers need to breathe = only travelers need to breathe, doesn't it?
So.... only travelers need to breathe. Where's the spin?

[afroakuma]

2. Use the out of context line that says ''only travelers need to breathe'' to spin the rule that says ''Native creatures don't need to breathe''.

3. Houserlue it. My houserule is outsiders don't breathe. Fell free to make your own...

jedipotter, the problem people are having with your attitude here is that you're putting forth the idea that a ruling predicated on the text is somehow vastly inferior to a ruling that ignores any rules basis to underpin it. That makes no sense.

If anything, your ruling is the inferior one because it significantly alters far more situations than need to be addressed under this question. For the sake of expediency, you're injuring ingenuity and strategy. Of course, if that is your goal, that's a completely different issue.

[Sith_Happens]

I'd like to hear about how outsider corpses as encounters would become commonplace! Not like, undead outsiders, just their bodies.

Mining the Plane of Earth is a quick way to encounter the suffocated corpses of just about anything (MotP p72).

[jedipotter]

only travelers need to breathe = only travelers need to breathe, doesn't it?
So.... only travelers need to breathe. Where's the spin?

What if a native travels, and becomes a traveler? Do they then need to breathe?


jedipotter, the problem people are having with your attitude here is that you're putting forth the idea that a ruling predicated on the text is somehow vastly inferior to a ruling that ignores any rules basis to underpin it. That makes no sense.

So I say there are three answers: feel feel to pick the one that you like. Not seeing the ''inferiority''.



If anything, your ruling is the inferior one because it significantly alters far more situations than need to be addressed under this question. For the sake of expediency, you're injuring ingenuity and strategy. Of course, if that is your goal, that's a completely different issue.

My houserule is not based just on this question. I like my Outsiders different. No psionisist can use powers like crisis of breath on any outsider in my game. But my houserule does address and cover this problem.

[Psyren]

2. Use the out of context line that says ''only travelers need to breathe'' to spin the rule that says ''Native creatures don't need to breathe''.

I don't even need that line. Suffocation is detrimental and it is caused by the plane having no air.

[afroakuma]

So I say there are three answers: feel feel to pick the one that you like. Not seeing the ''inferiority''.

Your usage of the word "spin" has a definite negative connotation. Especially since you use it earlier in the same post. If they're really equal in your mind, why aren't 2) and 3) reduced to a single "2) Make a ruling that suits your game" ?

[Svata]

So I say there are three answers: feel feel to pick the one that you like. Not seeing the ''inferiority"


Not everyone is a rule-slave

You were saying?