Hero: Fighter Rewritten [PEACH}

[Piell]

In deciding to rewrite the fighter, I had to first decide what I wanted out of it. I didn't want it to have a ton of active abilities - the warblade is an excellent class designed around that. I wanted to get rid of dead levels. I didn't feel I needed to add a bunch of damage boosts - fighters are already pretty decent at that, and keeping the bonus feats would allow for specializations in that area. There were two primary things I wanted to boost - mobility and tankiness/recovery. Fighters have always been reliant on magic items and alllied spellcasters for a lot of this, and even then are often at the mercy of enemy spellcasters. Finally, I wanted a fighter that could still lay out a beating even without their guy or in an antimagic field.



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Special


1st
+1
+2
+2
+2
Bonus Feat


2nd
+2
+3
+3
+3
Bonus Feat


3rd
+3
+3
+3
+3
Weapon Power +1


4th
+4
+4
+4
+4
Bonus Feat


5th
+5
+4
+4
+4
Arrogance of Might, Sight Beyond Sight


6th
+6/+1
+5
+5
+5
Bonus Feat, Mobile Fighter, Weapon Power +2


7th
+7/+2
+5
+5
+5
Massive Leap, Powerful Swimmer


8th
+8/+3
+6
+6
+6
Bonus Feat


9th
+9/+4
+6
+6
+6
Swift Recovery, I Fear No Death, Weapon Power +3


10th
+10/+5
+7
+7
+7
Bonus Feat


11th
+11/+6/+1
+7
+7
+7
Shake It Off


12th
+12/+7/+2
+8
+8
+8
Bonus Feat, Weapon Power +4


13th
+13/+8/+3
+8
+8
+8
Confidence of Might


14th
+14/+9/+4
+9
+9
+9
Bonus Feat


15th
+15/+10/+5
+9
+9
+9
I See All, Weapon Power +5


16th
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+10
+10
Bonus Feat


17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+10
+10
Slayer


18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+11
+11
Bonus Feat


19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+11
+11
Heroes Never Die


20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+12
+12
Bonus Feat



Hit Die: d12
Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex)
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier. (x4 at first level)


d12 hit die, since it's supposed to be a tank
Bonus skill points and a good skill list because everyone deserves nice things


Class Features
All of the following are class features of the hero.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Heroes are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all kinds of armor (heavy, medium and light), and with all shields (including tower shields).

No change here

Bonus Feats (Ex):At 1st level, a hero gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The hero gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two hero levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A hero must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A hero is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.


Again, no change from the base fighter. Bonus feats are always good!

Weapon Power (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, any weapon a hero wields (included unarmed strikes) is treated as having an enhancement bonus while the hero holds it. This bonus starts at +1 and increases by 1 every three hero levels thereafter (6th,9th,12th,15th) up to a maximum of +5. This weapon can be enchanted normally, but does not count as having an enhancement bonus in determining crafting costs and prerequisites (i.e. it must be enchanted to +1 before the Holy enchantment would be applied, and going from a +1 weapon to a +1 Fiery weapon would cost 6000 gp no matter what the enhancement bonus).

This does a few things. First, it means a fighter can beat you to death with pretty much anything. Second, it makes the golf bag of weapons easier to use - you just need the base weapon, you don't need to enchant them all. Finally, it also gives you more money to spend on other enchantments while still getting attack/damage bonuses.

Arrogance of Might (Ex): A 5th level hero gains Evasion and Mettle.

Sight Beyond Sight (Ex): A 5th level hero gains blindsense 30'.

Evasion and Mettle plus all good saves makes a pretty good tank against a lot of spells. Blindsense helps against things like stealth and invisible opponents that a traditional fighter doesn't really have any counters to, other than magic items.

Mobile Fighter (Ex): A 6th level hero may move during a full attack. They may move a distance up their movement speed and this movement may be split up before attacking, between attacks, and after attacking.

The downside of the standard melee fighter is getting stuck in and having to stand around and trade blows (which thus leads to the popularity of pounce.) Now a fighter can move all they want and still get all their attacks. They still need to tumble or take AoO's, but now at least they have options.

Massive Leap (Ex): At 7th level, a hero may fly as any part of their movement as if they had a fly speed equal to their movement speed with perfect maneuverability (for flight). If they do not end their turn adjacent to a creature or object, they fall at the end of their turn. A hero takes fall damage as if the fall were a lower distance equal to twice their movement speed.

Powerful Swimmer (Ex): A 7th level hero gains a swim speed equal to their land speed.

Some much-needed mobility enhancement, as well as allowing some neat Shadow of the Collosus style maneuvers.

Swift Recovery (Ex): At 9th level, a hero gains fast healing 5

I Fear No Death (Ex): A 9th level hero gains a permanent Death Ward effect.

Adds tankiness in the form of HP recovery as well as immunity to death effects. You can't instant-kill the hero and as long as they're still alive they'll be back in top form shortly.

Shake it Off (Ex): At 11th level, once per encounter on their turn a hero can select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting them and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends on them immediately. This does not require an action.

A modified Iron Heart Surge, lets a hero get rid of a negative effect.

Confidence of Might (Ex): A 13th level hero gains Improved Evasion and Improved Mettle.

Just improving on the 5th level bonuses.

I See All (Ex): At 15th level, a hero gains an always-active True Seeing effect.

Lets the hero shut down a bunch of spellcasting shenanigans for themselves.

Slayer (Ex): At 17th level, any successful strike on an opponent with CR less than the hero's HD-2 also forces the target to make a Reflex save equal to 10+Hero's HD bonus or die. Even if the opponent succeeds, they still take normal damage. Any opponent with a CR of half or less of the hero's HD who is adjacent to the Hero can be slain instantly as a free action.

This is the only ability I'm really unsatisifed with. CR is metagamey and also innacurate a lot of times, but I'm not sure what to replace it with to keep the flavor and usefuless (that being a hero being able to cut down lesser enemies with little or no effort). I can't use HD since it varies so wildly, and making it HP-based would mean even powerful class-based and casting types would be subject to it while lower level high-hp tanky enemies wouldn't.

Heroes Never Die (Ex): At 19th level, if a hero would be reduced to negative hit points, make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to the negative hit point total. On a successful save, the hero is left alive and conscious at 1 hit point.

Stolen from a crusader stance, this means a hero can keep going for quite a while even at low HP.

Any questions/comments/suggestions would be appreciated!

[AuraTwilight]

It's better, I'll admit that. It still suffers from a lot of the problems of the official Fighter, however; namely that outside of "swording something in the face" it doesn't have a lot it can do.

[Piell]

I wasn't really looking to change that. I was more looking to make a "passive" version of a warblade (who doesn't have much out of combat either) - someone whose stuff just always works and that you don't have to mess with a bunch of stances and maneuvers.

[Stiq]

It's not necessarily the kind of class I would have done, but it works. Blatantly magical in some respects, but that's not an awful thing if that's what you're into.

Mighty Leap, though... double jump? Making it a fly speed specifically seems a little weird, but I suppose it works.

For Slayer, I think you were kind of unclear; I assume the reflex save is vs. death, and that creatures below half the Hero's CR don't get a save?

Regarding the effect: how about "If the Hero makes an attack that exceeds the enemy's armor class by 10 or more, the attack is automatically a Critical Hit and is treated as a Coup de Grace."?


"Sight Beyond Sight"

I see what you did there.

[Piell]

It's not necessarily the kind of class I would have done, but it works. Blatantly magical in some respects, but that's not an awful thing if that's what you're into.

Mighty Leap, though... double jump? Making it a fly speed specifically seems a little weird, but I suppose it works.

For Slayer, I think you were kind of unclear; I assume the reflex save is vs. death, and that creatures below half the Hero's CR don't get a save?

Regarding the effect: how about "If the Hero makes an attack that exceeds the enemy's armor class by 10 or more, the attack is automatically a Critical Hit and is treated as a Coup de Grace."?


"Sight Beyond Sight"

I see what you did there.

The reflex save is vs death and there is no save for creature's below 1/2 of the hero's CR, correct.

The problem with tying Slayer to AC is that AC's vary wildly amongst enemies of the same CR, and that it would be pretty easy to make get an attack bonus that's 10 high enough to automatically trigger on at least your first few attacks through buffs or even just maxing strength and attack bonuses (a 17th level slayer with 30 strength would have a minimum attack bonus of +32 - the highest non-dragon AC for CR 17 monsters in the Monster Manual is 29) even on powerful enemies. A hero who multiclassed into a single level of wizard could pick up a wand of wraithstrike and get it on literally everything they fought.

[Stiq]

The reflex save is vs death and there is no save for creature's below 1/2 of the hero's CR, correct.

The problem with tying Slayer to AC is that AC's vary wildly amongst enemies of the same CR, and that it would be pretty easy to make get an attack bonus that's 10 high enough to automatically trigger on at least your first few attacks through buffs or even just maxing strength and attack bonuses (a 17th level slayer with 30 strength would have a minimum attack bonus of +32 - the highest non-dragon AC for CR 17 monsters in the Monster Manual is 29) even on powerful enemies. A hero who multiclassed into a single level of wizard could pick up a wand of wraithstrike and get it on literally everything they fought.

Okay. I see where you're coming from. How about something like this:

"Once per day, the Hero may, as a full-round action, make a melee touch attack against a single target at their highest Base Attack Bonus. If the attack succeeds, and the target has less than 100 HP, the target dies. If the target has more than 100 HP, the attack resolves as though it had failed to beat the target's HP.

Alternatively, the Hero may attack all adjacent targets with a melee touch attack at their highest Base Attack Bonus; if the Hero opts to do this, the attack kills all targets with less than 50 HP, or otherwise is treated as an attack that failed to overcome the target's AC."

[Piell]

That's pretty far off from what I want it do to - the idea behind the feat is that the Hero can slay armies, cutting through normal soldiers like they're nothing (in the same way that a high level wizard can cast Wail of the Banshee or Meteor Swarm and kill dozens). As I currently have it, a Hero could run through a low level army and kill everyone they became adjacent to, and do it over and over, and I want to keep that capability. Once per day isn't nearly going to cut it.

[Stiq]

That's pretty far off from what I want it do to - the idea behind the feat is that the Hero can slay armies, cutting through normal soldiers like they're nothing (in the same way that a high level wizard can cast Wail of the Banshee or Meteor Swarm and kill dozens). As I currently have it, a Hero could run through a low level army and kill everyone they became adjacent to, and do it over and over, and I want to keep that capability. Once per day isn't nearly going to cut it.

At such a point as the enemies are weak enough compared to you that an ability like that would be balanced, you'd be usually one-hit-killing your enemies with your attacks, anyway, assuming you have decent equipment and feats (and if you're saying you want the hero to be able to kill eight guys with no save and almost no restriction using nothing but his bare hands every round, I'm afraid we have a fundamental disagreement on design philosophy).

If you really want to capture that effect, give them Whirlwind Attack as a free bonus feat, and if you're really ambitious, the ability to take 10 on certain/all attack rolls. That should allow them to gut anything they genuinely deserve to be able to instakill.

Concessions made: if you're trying to minimize the amount of die rolled for the sake of game pacing, I can understand why you wouldn't necessarily want it to be based on full attack and damage rolls. If you're really determined to do things that way, here's what I'd advise:

1. Make the criteria based on normal attack rolls for the weapon they're using. It's supposed to be a master warrior, so they should be subject to the same advantages and disadvantages of someone using that weapon. Their (borderline supernatural) skill at arms is the hallmark of their abilities.

2. Make the insta-kill threshold based on remaining HP; maybe 25 or something. It's not quite the same as CR, but it makes sense as a metric, and makes it useful outside of plowing down nameless mooks. It essentially gives them massive minimum damage against enemies with low HP and saves time.

3. If the enemy has DR or some other damage-mitigating effect, you roll damage normally, and if the attack does at least 1 damage, the attack will insta-kill normally.

That's about as far as I'm willing to go on this. I hope this is helpful.

[Piell]

At such a point as the enemies are weak enough compared to you that an ability like that would be balanced, you'd be usually one-hit-killing your enemies with your attacks, anyway, assuming you have decent equipment and feats (and if you're saying you want the hero to be able to kill eight guys with no save and almost no restriction using nothing but his bare hands every round, I'm afraid we have a fundamental disagreement on design philosophy).

If you really want to capture that effect, give them Whirlwind Attack as a free bonus feat, and if you're really ambitious, the ability to take 10 on certain/all attack rolls. That should allow them to gut anything they genuinely deserve to be able to instakill.

Concessions made: if you're trying to minimize the amount of die rolled for the sake of game pacing, I can understand why you wouldn't necessarily want it to be based on full attack and damage rolls. If you're really determined to do things that way, here's what I'd advise:

1. Make the criteria based on normal attack rolls for the weapon they're using. It's supposed to be a master warrior, so they should be subject to the same advantages and disadvantages of someone using that weapon. Their (borderline supernatural) skill at arms is the hallmark of their abilities.

2. Make the insta-kill threshold based on remaining HP; maybe 25 or something. It's not quite the same as CR, but it makes sense as a metric, and makes it useful outside of plowing down nameless mooks. It essentially gives them massive minimum damage against enemies with low HP and saves time.

3. If the enemy has DR or some other damage-mitigating effect, you roll damage normally, and if the attack does at least 1 damage, the attack will insta-kill normally.

That's about as far as I'm willing to go on this. I hope this is helpful.

I don't want the hero to be able to kill eight guys with no save and almost no restriction using nothing but his bare hands every round; I want him to be able to kill 41 weak enemies a round as he double moves through their densely packed lines and kills everyone he moves alongside (or more, with reach). After all, a wizard can basically do the same thing. Giving them whirlwind attack as a 17th level ability is laughably weak. Being able to insta-kill enemies half of their CR is not overpowered - a 17th wizard could easily have a DC 30 Fort save for Wail of the Banshee and the absolute best Fort save for MM creatures is the T-Rex with +16, meaning it would need to roll a 14 to survive, and most CR 8 creatures would need a natural 20 in order to save. The 17th level hero doesn't have the world- and story-effecting abilities that a wizard has, so it should at least be able to fighter better than the wizard can. A 25 HP barrier is again laughably weak - even many CR 3 enemies have more HP than that, and a 17th level wizard can do that much with a single fireball.

[Stiq]

I don't want the hero to be able to kill eight guys with no save and almost no restriction using nothing but his bare hands every round; I want him to be able to kill 41 weak enemies a round as he double moves through their densely packed lines and kills everyone he moves alongside (or more, with reach). After all, a wizard can basically do the same thing. Giving them whirlwind attack as a 17th level ability is laughably weak. Being able to insta-kill enemies half of their CR is not overpowered - a 17th wizard could easily have a DC 30 Fort save for Wail of the Banshee and the absolute best Fort save for MM creatures is the T-Rex with +16, meaning it would need to roll a 14 to survive, and most CR 8 creatures would need a natural 20 in order to save. The 17th level hero doesn't have the world- and story-effecting abilities that a wizard has, so it should at least be able to fighter better than the wizard can. A 25 HP barrier is again laughably weak - even many CR 3 enemies have more HP than that, and a 17th level wizard can do that much with a single fireball.

Okay. Fair's fair. I don't have the average HP at every CR committed to memory. My suggestion has numerous issues compared to things like Wail of the Banshee.

I get it. Dedicated spellcasters are a lot more potent than other classes. For many reasons, this isn't a good thing. I can understand the desire to make non-casters that are comparable in power to, say, wizards and clerics (personally, if you ask me, they need to be nerfed more than other classes need to be buffed, but I get the idea of why you want to do this).

My issue is not that you want this class to be able to kill 40-something mooks in a round. My issue is that you want this class to be able to kill up to 40-something mooks in a round in the range of CR 8 to 10 and below, every round, while either moving or possibly attacking something more dangerous, as a permanent effect that is on all the time. I haven't even made considerations for the implications of this ability while abusing movement speed increasing magic.

The implications of that are staggering. Even the sodding Blood War is primarily composed of creatures at that range and lower.

Let's just assume we go with half of your metric. Making liberal use of double-moves, killing on average 20 creatures per round, you're talking about having one of these guys mow down upwards of 10,000 creatures in an hour, assuming they survive (and recall, they have all good saves, a solid hit die, and magic items). And at no point except encountering the occasional Glabrezu (or what have you) are they likely to be in any significant danger or even be made to roll anything.

That is not only the power to purge nations and genocide entire races from the world, that is the power to do so faster than any other base class in the entire game.

Are they, on the whole, more powerful than a Cleric or Wizard? By virtue of the latter group's sheer versatility, I can't say they are. There are creatures, NPCs, etc. that could contain a Hero's rampage, to be sure, but I think I can say without exaggeration that the Hero has more sheer killing power than anything I can even fathom.

[Piell]

Okay. Fair's fair. I don't have the average HP at every CR committed to memory. My suggestion has numerous issues compared to things like Wail of the Banshee.

I get it. Dedicated spellcasters are a lot more potent than other classes. For many reasons, this isn't a good thing. I can understand the desire to make non-casters that are comparable in power to, say, wizards and clerics (personally, if you ask me, they need to be nerfed more than other classes need to be buffed, but I get the idea of why you want to do this).

My issue is not that you want this class to be able to kill 40-something mooks in a round. My issue is that you want this class to be able to kill up to 40-something mooks in a round in the range of CR 8 to 10 and below, every round, while either moving or possibly attacking something more dangerous, as a permanent effect that is on all the time. I haven't even made considerations for the implications of this ability while abusing movement speed increasing magic.

The implications of that are staggering. Even the sodding Blood War is primarily composed of creatures at that range and lower.

Let's just assume we go with half of your metric. Making liberal use of double-moves, killing on average 20 creatures per round, you're talking about having one of these guys mow down upwards of 10,000 creatures in an hour, assuming they survive (and recall, they have all good saves, a solid hit die, and magic items). And at no point except encountering the occasional Glabrezu (or what have you) are they likely to be in any significant danger or even be made to roll anything.

That is not only the power to purge nations and genocide entire races from the world, that is the power to do so faster than any other base class in the entire game.

Are they, on the whole, more powerful than a Cleric or Wizard? By virtue of the latter group's sheer versatility, I can't say they are. There are creatures, NPCs, etc. that could contain a Hero's rampage, to be sure, but I think I can say without exaggeration that the Hero has more sheer killing power than anything I can even fathom.

Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm)+pit fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) or balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor) casting Blasphemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm), or Astral Deva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelAstralDeva) casting Holy Word (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyWord.htm); just one of the many many things a wizard can do. Fighters should get at LEAST the same killing power.

[Stiq]

Say what you want about what spellcasters can do in the 7th to 9th level range; At least those are somewhat finite. And require actions. I don't even want to think about what a 17th level Hero can do with some speed-increasing effects and a whip with only their move action.

For the record, I happen to think the Blasphemy variant spells, like... well, like many things in 3.5, spells not being the least of them, aren't particularly well designed. But you've made your point.

I feel like an ability that lets you slaughter every mook you walk past as many times per day as you want should at least be a standard action. That would at least make it slightly less exploitable.

Beyond the details, it's pretty clear where you stand on this, and for both your sake and mine I'm going to stop mercilessly beating this dead horse.

[Veklim]

Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm)+pit fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) or balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor) casting Blasphemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm), or Astral Deva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelAstralDeva) casting Holy Word (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyWord.htm); just one of the many many things a wizard can do. Fighters should get at LEAST the same killing power.

Oh dear, oh my, this old chestnut....

We all know and understand the issues surrounding fighters and wizards, the linear/quadratic debate, the one-trick-pony/ultimate versitility comparison, and all the other parts of this subject which are summed up nicely in the 'Tier principle'. Trouble is, your approach to game design is arguably MORE horrifically flawed than the one used when creating the 3.0 classes in the first place. You are trying to make something which can out-do a wizard in mundane fashion, which is absurd on two fronts:
1) Magic will always trump mundane in broad strokes, and this is both fair and reasonable, even the most preternatural swordsman can't compete DIRECTLY with a portal which spews forth massive immortal demons. The swordsman SHOULD be able to deal with the demons spewed forth and perhaps even destroy the gate itself with an attack, and THAT'S the bit you're seeming to miss.
2) When attempting to fix up a very low-powered and limited class, deciding to do so by out-powering, in one specific area, the most (arguably) broken and overpowered class in the game is NOT a good or reasonable way of balancing it out.

Most of the class seems ok, even if it does still suffer form the lack of versatility which is the greatest flaw of the fighter class. Trouble is, this debate has mainly sparked from the Slayer ability, so regarding that I'd suggest you completely re-assess the mechanic. You want to be able to plow through mooks without breaking a sweat, ok, cool. I can get with that idea, and I largely agree with the sentiment. Trouble is, there's no one simple stat you can use (apart from CR, which has it's own issues as already discussed) to designate what qualifies 'mook' at any given level. My suggestion would therefore HAVE to go with keying something off HP, since it's right at the core of how combat is won or lost, and combat IS the fighter's schtick. Try something like this perhaps....

Calculate your minimum weapon damage. Whenever you hit with an attack against a target who has equal or less HP than the minimum damage you can roll on your weapon, that target instantly dies (this is a death effect) and the attack does not count towards your number of attacks per round. If the target has DR, your minimum damage must exceed it by at least 1 point. You may do this a number of times per round equal to half your fighter level (rounded down).

Now the fighter can plow through plenty of mooks in a round, but still has to hit them to do so (as is fair and right), and cannot just do so with impunity, there is still a mundane limit on the number of 'free attacks' you get in a round.

I've noticed there's been ANOTHER recent insurgence of fighter fixes lately.....might be time to finish off my one and put it up.....I mean everyone has to have at least one fighter fix right..? :smalltongue:

[Piell]

Oh dear, oh my, this old chestnut....

We all know and understand the issues surrounding fighters and wizards, the linear/quadratic debate, the one-trick-pony/ultimate versitility comparison, and all the other parts of this subject which are summed up nicely in the 'Tier principle'. Trouble is, your approach to game design is arguably MORE horrifically flawed than the one used when creating the 3.0 classes in the first place. You are trying to make something which can out-do a wizard in mundane fashion, which is absurd on two fronts:
1) Magic will always trump mundane in broad strokes, and this is both fair and reasonable, even the most preternatural swordsman can't compete DIRECTLY with a portal which spews forth massive immortal demons. The swordsman SHOULD be able to deal with the demons spewed forth and perhaps even destroy the gate itself with an attack, and THAT'S the bit you're seeming to miss.
2) When attempting to fix up a very low-powered and limited class, deciding to do so by out-powering, in one specific area, the most (arguably) broken and overpowered class in the game is NOT a good or reasonable way of balancing it out.


Your point 1 is some outright bull****. Magic shouldn't automatically be better than mundane.

That said, I have changed slayer to be adjacent enemies only to avoid reach shenanigans.