Huge dragon pre-epic?

[ILM]

I'm looking for a way to get a Huge (or larger) dragon as a cohort by level 20.

I've basically got it down to finding a Huge ECL 21 dragon (dragon type will do, doesn't need to be a True Dragon - though obviously it's preferred). Using the simple rules provided in Draconomicon, I think one can reasonably expand the list of possible dragon cohorts beyond the basic one provided in the Dragon Cohort feat description.

Alas, so far only Wyverns seem to fit the bill (17 HD Gargantuan Wyvern, ECL 21 - using the +4 LA listed in Draconomicon page 144), and Wyverns kind of suck. Is there any dragon (or lesser dragon) in non-Dragon Magazine official 3.5 sources that advances to Huge size or better by ECL 21? (preferably flying, which is why I excluded Spiked Felldrakes)

[Thurbane]

From the Draconomicon:


An advanced (13HD) Dragonnel is ECL 16.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Easiest way is with Zentharim Skymage (LoD). It can have any flying monster with HD up to class level (max 5) + cha mod +1, with no further restrictions.
So a Sorcerer/Zhentarim Skymage can easily get an epic dragon at level 20 with a few charisma boosts. Throw in Legacy Champion and you can get a whole lot higher.

The second option is to get a dragon as a Special Mount and use a Halfling Outrider/Supermount build. The downside is that you have to be a halfling and that your character is basically an NPC who's sole purpose is having a high HD pet dragon.

Third, you can play a cleric. Rebuke dragons (DrM) can command a dragon permanently (technically it can command two, since your limited to 1/2 turning level). Since most dragons have an elemental subtype so can the Fire, Water, Earth and Air domains. 10 permanent huge dragon pets, if you push it, possibly with more HD than you have.
This depends on your DM allowing the various things that boost turning level to apply to non-undead turning though. It also costs a big chunk of your WBL and defines pretty much your entire build. On the upside you're a cleric with full casting, so there's definitely worse sacrifices.

If none of those options are what you're looking for things get tricky outside DragonMag. Dragons generally only have their LA given up to juvenile. The youngest dragons that get to huge size are the young adult red and gold, iirc. If you go simply by listed ECL the young adult red has 19HD and no listed LA. Neither has the wyrmling force dragon though, and i don't think most DMs are willing to be that lenient.

[Thurbane]

I just had a thought - the Half-dragon template turns any creature into the Dragon type, yes? Also, if it's large+, it gets wings.


Advanced (10HD) Half-dragon Winter Wolf, for example, is an ECL 16 cohort.


I'm sure there are better base creatures out there to put the template on, though...

[Vaz]

Easiest way is with Zentharim Skymage (LoD). It can have any flying monster with HD up to class level (max 5) + cha mod +1, with no further restrictions.
So a Sorcerer/Zhentarim Skymage can easily get an epic dragon at level 20 with a few charisma boosts. Throw in Legacy Champion and you can get a whole lot higher.

You'll need to get a score of 19 for a Red Dragon, which is the earliest. This means you need a Cha Mod of +13 - which is available by having a Cha score of 36+ - doable by Cha 18, +5 levelling, +5 Tome, a +6 Cloak of Charisma, and +2 got by some other manner - either old age (+2 mentals, -4 physicals), or by being a +2 Cha race with no LA (or LA buy off being allowed).

There may be other true dragons who become Huge size earlier than 19HD, however, but I'm not diving through all of the books to locate that.

Having said that, despite Dragons being notoriously under CR'd, and also backing up a party, it's still on a CR13 creature. Various optimization levels will reduce the gap between the party a little bit, but even then, it's a lot.

[dysprosium]

I forget what the Draconomicon's equivalent LA for it is, but a dragon turtle is huge. But unfortunately it does not fly -- unless you turn it into Gamora or something . . .

But Thurbane has possibly the easiest answer for you -- slap the half dragon template on something you like already huge sized. Should be allowed since Leadership is DM dependent anyway.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Having said that, despite Dragons being notoriously under CR'd, and also backing up a party, it's still on a CR13 creature. Various optimization levels will reduce the gap between the party a little bit, but even then, it's a lot.

That's because red dragons suck. :smalltongue: The same 19HD will get you an adult steel dragon, which casts as an 11th level sorcerer before Loredrake in addition to being a competent melee combatant with the right feats. Probably the best of the true dragons as a companion.
The fact that it is only CR 8 only demonstrates the sillyness of the CR system since it's cleary superior to a 11th level human sorcerer, who would be CR 11.

A true dragon only makes sense if you want to get one of the archetypes from Dragons of Eberron though. Loredrake is ok on a steel but no dragon will really compete as a primary spellcaster against something of equal HD. Wyrm of War can be fun for a competent melee pet. The others are situational but getting access to the druid list if you don't have one in the party or turning your dragon into a crafter with the Retain Essence feature can be useful, too.

If you don't need a true dragon, why not go for the Gray Linnorm (MM2)? 13HD, huge, Breath Weapon, Poison Sting... and casting as a 17th level cleric.
For 20HD you get the Dread Linnorm (also MM2). Colossal, 2 energy draining bite attacks, Breath Weapon and 18th level sorcerer casting.

[Vaz]

Good luck getting the Charisma required for a 28HD Steel Dragon, then.

He wants a huge Dragon, and Steels don't become Huge until Very Old.

[ILM]

From the Draconomicon:

An advanced (13HD) Dragonnel is ECL 16.

But it looks like a cross between a pony, a giraffe and a lizard :(.


Easiest way is with Zentharim Skymage (LoD).
LoD is 3.0 so not in my allowed sources.


The second option is to get a dragon as a Special Mount and use a Halfling Outrider/Supermount build. The downside is that you have to be a halfling and that your character is basically an NPC who's sole purpose is having a high HD pet dragon.
I'm highly skeptical that bonus HD from AC/mount advance monster size. For that matter the Sage has ruled against it. I know how 'popular' he is around here but I still take the stance that barring actual errata, his rulings are as RAW as we'll get.


Third, you can play a cleric.
Huh, that would work pretty well...


I just had a thought - the Half-dragon template turns any creature into the Dragon type, yes? Also, if it's large+, it gets wings.
Aaah... Now that's the sort of trick I was looking for! Now to find a suitable base creature... Does it turn any creature into a dragon or does the type pyramid still apply? (I was thinking of the Abyssal Drake, inexplicably an Outsider)


That's because red dragons suck. :smalltongue: The same 19HD will get you an adult steel dragon, which casts as an 11th level sorcerer before Loredrake in addition to being a competent melee combatant with the right feats. Probably the best of the true dragons as a companion.
A 19 HD Steel Dragon is barely Large and has no LA listed (going by the web version) so it wouldn't work for me.

Gray Linnorn sounds interesting; I'm away from books right now, does it have a LA?

[ILM]

Double post but holy crap I think I've got it:

Half-Dragon Wyvern, advanced to 14 HD, and using the +4 LA listed in Draconomicon. Boom, ECL 21, Gargantuan, and if it takes the Dragon Breath feat in RotD, a breath weapon that's just barely worse than the Gold Dragon's (d8 vs d10).

... and then I'll tack on 16 additional (non-advancing) HD from my semi-supermount build.

Where's that evil cackle smiley when you need it?

[Vaz]

But how have you actually got that creature as cohort though?

[Tvtyrant]

But how have you actually got that creature as cohort though?

They met at a seedy bar outside Foulornis. After a couple weeks they were married and the dragon knew they would never be apart.

[ILM]

Oh. Well Dragon Cohort (Draconomicon) gives you a dragon as a cohort, and Wyverns are on the list. Granted, Half-Dragon Wyverns aren't; DM discretion, or just ditch the template. In fairness though, the Half-Dragon template, among others, is listed on page 144 of Draconomicon in the secont 'Dragons as PCs' so I don't think it's that much of a stretch (plus it's universally regarded as sub-optimal; I just took it for the breath weapon).

[Vaz]

Does Dragon Cohort allow you to take an ECL21 creature as a cohort? I thought you were limited to Level -2 for cohort, and that dragon cohort gave you 3 free levels for that purpose as well. Does a Wyvern/Half Dragon Wyvern fall into that range? AFB, so cannot check.

[ILM]

Dragon Cohort for a -3, and Dragon Rider class (DLCS) for another -3. Ever so slightly iffy since the ability is also called 'dragon cohort', unfortunately, but the wording's different. But then you take a +2 to make the cohort into your mount.

Assuming the stacking works, that's a cumulative -4, so ECL 21 (Dragon Rider does specify that the dragon's modified level can't be higher than yours).

[gawwy]

if dragon lance campaign setting is available you can try the Dragon Rider prc (http://dndtools.eu/classes/dragon-rider/) which gives you dragon cohort (ignore 3 ecl) and allows you to have a dragon up to your level. at level 10 you add 8 HD to it as well. cant be entered till level 10 as it requires 10 BAB (enter as paladin designate dragon as special mount?).

at level 20 this gives level 20 (your level) + 3 (get to ignore 3 ECL) +8(from bonus HD) = 31HD which is an old red dragon. which is gargantuan.

no ****ing around with super mount questionable builds but does require dragon lance campaign setting (i also dont know if your dragon magically ages to be the highest ECL you can attract)

not to be confused with the Dragonrider prc (http://dndtools.eu/classes/dragonrider/) from Draconomicon

[Urpriest]

if dragon lance campaign setting is available you can try the Dragon Rider prc (http://dndtools.eu/classes/dragon-rider/) which gives you dragon cohort (ignore 3 ecl) and allows you to have a dragon up to your level. at level 10 you add 8 HD to it as well. cant be entered till level 10 as it requires 10 BAB (enter as paladin designate dragon as special mount?).

at level 20 this gives level 20 (your level) + 3 (get to ignore 3 ECL) +8(from bonus HD) = 31HD which is an old red dragon. which is gargantuan.

no ****ing around with super mount questionable builds but does require dragon lance campaign setting (i also dont know if your dragon magically ages to be the highest ECL you can attract)

not to be confused with the Dragonrider prc (http://dndtools.eu/classes/dragonrider/) from Draconomicon

Remember, the bonus HD aren't age advancement, and you still need to take level adjustment into account. You get an ECL 23 dragon, which is unlikely to get you Huge with any of the true Dragons.

[icefractal]

Unusual, somewhat hax method.
1) Be a Shadowcraft Mage.
2) Emulate Greater Dragon Ally (Draconomicon). If you've put any effort into it, a 9th level spell should be more than 100% real.
3) Ask the 27 HD Dragon to perform the service of "be my cohort for a year and a day, then go do whatever you want for as long as you want."
4) Point out that if it doesn't agree, it will cease to exist, because it's made out of illusion.
5) Enjoy your badass dragon cohort. Someone has True Seeing? Doesn't matter, it's at least 100% real (and if your DM doesn't declare it too silly, could be like 140% real).

The "year and a day" duration is purely for style. You could probably get away with asking for just about any duration, given how strong your bargaining position is. But a super-short (for a dragon) period of service like this should put it in a better mood, and it's not like you can't just cast the spell again. And I like the idea of a mage absent-mindedly releasing these powerful illusion-dragons onto the land every year just so he can ride around in style.

[Larkas]

Aaah... Now that's the sort of trick I was looking for! Now to find a suitable base creature... Does it turn any creature into a dragon or does the type pyramid still apply? (I was thinking of the Abyssal Drake, inexplicably an Outsider)

Frankly, the type pyramid only applies if Savage Species is on the table, AFAIK.

[Curbstomp]

Classes:
5 Levels Paladin with Dragon as your special mount
5 Levels Prestige Paladin with Dragon as your special mount
After that go Dragon Rider as soon as you can get in

Feats:
Leadership with Dragon as your Cohort
Draconic Cohort
Improved Cohort

Notes:
This requires your DM to allow the optional rule in Draconomicon to apply to your game that allows you to take a dragon-type creature as your special mount.
It also requires leadership to be allowed in your game
Finally it requires that your DM allow your special mount to be your cohort
Also see gawwy's reply (above)

Personally I allow this to occur in epic settings where the intent is to play beyond 20th level eventually. Dragons along these lines barely keep up with a properly build Fighter (equipped) in stopping power.

Other than Pyroclastic Dragons... those are kind of busted :P

[Divide by Zero]

Aaah... Now that's the sort of trick I was looking for! Now to find a suitable base creature... Does it turn any creature into a dragon or does the type pyramid still apply? (I was thinking of the Abyssal Drake, inexplicably an Outsider)

As far as I know, the type pyramid doesn't exist in 3.5. Some specific templates have different rules depending on the base creature, but other than that, what it says is what happens.