Shillelagh

[Sharogy]

Compares to earlier edition, the current description of the spell seems surprisingly vague?

S h i l l e l a g h
Transmutation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (mistletoe, a shamrock leaf, and a club or quarterstaff)
Duration: 1 minute
The wood of a club or quarterstaff you are holding is imbued with nature’s power. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon's damage die becomes a d8. The weapon also becomes magical, if it isn’t already. he spell ends if you cast it again or if you let go of the weapon.


So when you cast it on a quarterstaff, does it change the d6 die into d8, so when wielded 2h you get d10? or it adds no dmg whatsoever when wielded 2h?
And when it is magical, does it obtain +1 to its property like the older version of the spell?

[hymer]

It may be a little confusing, but it's clear enough for me. :smallsmile:


So when you cast it on a quarterstaff, does it change the d6 die into d8

Yes.


, so when wielded 2h you get d10?

No.


or it adds no dmg whatsoever when wielded 2h?

Yes, unless you do something to change that - like getting the polearm master feat.


And when it is magical, does it obtain +1 to its property like the older version of the spell?

No. It simply means the weapon can overcome resistance and immunity to non-magical weapons.

[Sharogy]

right, so in other words it does almost nothing, a complete waterdown version of the 3.x edition of the spell.

[hymer]

right, so in other words it does almost nothing, a complete waterdown version of the 3.x edition of the spell.

Au contraire. It lets you use your caster stat as your combat stat, making it worth anything from +0 (if you have the same strength as your caster stat) to +6 (if your caster stat is 20 and your strength is 8). It's more powerful than it used to be, and it's a bonus action to cast and a cantrip as well.

[INDYSTAR188]

right, so in other words it does almost nothing, a complete waterdown version of the 3.x edition of the spell.

I think allowing the caster to use their primary stat for attack and damage as well as upping the damage die is pretty nice. If you're a druid and need to go into beat-stick mode this seems like a good choice. What did the spell do in 3.5?

[hymer]

What did the spell do in 3.5?

Shillelagh (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shillelagh.htm)
Transmutation
Level: Drd 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched nonmagical oak club or quarterstaff
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

Your own nonmagical club or quarterstaff becomes a weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. (A quarterstaff gains this enhancement for both ends of the weapon.) It deals damage as if it were two size categories larger. These effects only occur when the weapon is wielded by you. If you do not wield it, the weapon behaves as if unaffected by this spell.

[akaddk]

Use a club and a shield. Seems pretty decent to me. And who GAF what it was like in 3.5? In FATAL my **** is 20" long. Does that have any relevance to Shillelagh in 5e D&D?

[Person_Man]

Apparently lots of monsters will have Resistance or Immunity to non-magical damage. It's WotC's answer to the "100 commoners with bows can kill an elder dragon in one round" bounded accuracy "problem." Also, magic items are intentionally completely optional. Therefore, most classes have ways to make their attacks count as magic.

Also, its very helpful for a 1st level Druid, because it lets them make useful melee attacks even if their Str and Dex are 10, which is highly likely, because Druids have Wildshape.

[Marius]

Apparently lots of monsters will have Resistance or Immunity to non-magical damage. It's WotC's answer to the "100 commoners with bows can kill an elder dragon in one round" bounded accuracy "problem." Also, magic items are intentionally completely optional. Therefore, most classes have ways to make their attacks count as magic.

Also, its very helpful for a 1st level Druid, because it lets them make useful melee attacks even if their Str and Dex are 10, which is highly likely, because Druids have Wildshape.

I think Poison Spray is a much better option. At first it could do a little less damage if your wisdom is high enough but after 5th level it takes off. Plus it has longer range.

[hymer]

I think Poison Spray is a much better option. At first it could do a little less damage if your wisdom is high enough but after 5th level it takes off. Plus it has longer range.

It certainly deals more damage once it goes to 2d12. But resistance and immunity to poison is common from the very earliest levels. Immunity to even magical weapons is much rarer. The 10' range makes PS range marginally better than melee attacks.

Edit: It occured to me that a club is a simple light weapon. Without warcaster you can't have two shillelagh weapons aactive (unless you've got extra arms, or the DM lets you to 'hold on' to a weapon by sticking it between your thighs or something), so I don't know how useful that little fact might be.

[DireSickFish]

Would it be possible to make a Wisdom based Palladin or Fighter by picking this cantrip up via a feet or dip?

[hymer]

Would it be possible to make a Wisdom based Palladin or Fighter by picking this cantrip up via a feet or dip?

This is just spitballing:
I don't see why not. A human could start with the Magic Initiate feat and do it. But then again, I'm not sure what the advantage would be. Str and dex give you AC directly or indirectly (letting you wear armour), so you might want to pick up Unarmored Defense that gets you wisdom to AC to pull this off. But then you'd still want high dex, so you might as well use that as your weapon stat.

[Grynning]

Could be a good pickup for a low-level monk, though it becomes redundant at high levels when their unarmed strikes become better than this spell. Probably better to dip monk on a druid to get the unarmored defense.

[Yorrin]

Would it be possible to make a Wisdom based Palladin or Fighter by picking this cantrip up via a feet or dip?

It would be difficult. Not in terms of offense, but in terms of defence, since you either want heavy armor + str or light +dex. It might work with a 14Dex and medium armor, though. Certainly possible.

[DireSickFish]

It would be difficult. Not in terms of offense, but in terms of defence, since you either want heavy armor + str or light +dex. It might work with a 14Dex and medium armor, though. Certainly possible.

Yeah I was originally thinking of having very low str and dex. 10s or something to make a martial character with high mental stats. But 14 Dex and medium armor would probably be best. It's either that or go fullplate and just take the slower movement(not optimal but it's an option).

[Zweisteine]

It occured to me that a club is a simple light weapon. Without warcaster you can't have two shillelagh weapons aactive (unless you've got extra arms, or the DM lets you to 'hold on' to a weapon by sticking it between your thighs or something), so I don't know how useful that little fact might be.
No, you can. I was going to say a bit more about how I came to this conclusion, and hte interesting ideas I ahd on the way, but I don't have the time.

Here are the relevant quotes (emphasis mine):

If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.

A spellcaster must have a hand free to access these components, but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.

So your fights might go like this as a dual-shillelagh-wielding character:
You walk around with a shield in your off hand, and two or more clubs in your component pouch. When you see an enemy, you use your first bonus action to cast shillelagh (drawing the club as part of the spellcasting process), drop the shield as your action, and move so you can get into melee next turn (or into melee if your enemy is trying to escape, so you can make AoOs). On your second turn, you cast shillelagh again, drawing the other club, move into melee if you aren't in it already, then attack twice.

As a fighter 2 with the spell, you can use your action surge to keep your armor bonus a bit longer and get in more attacks faster (cast first spell turn 1, move into melee, and attack; use the action surge turn 2 to drop the shield, then cast the second spell and attack twice).


EDIT: As for usefulness of shillelagh, I would guess that it would be most useful for a druid following the circle of the land, and thus not using Wild Shape as their primary combat mode (or is a Moon Druid out of shapes for the day). It isn't necessarily an optimal build (especially at higher levels), but it is an interesting one.

[Person_Man]

Would it be possible to make a Wisdom based Palladin or Fighter by picking this cantrip up via a feet or dip?

Possible, yes. Optimal, no.

Dwarf can wear heavy armor without having its speed reduced by it. You have proficiency in Heavy Armor. So that takes care of you AC. So your Str only needs to be high enough to not be effected by Encumbrance, and you should avoid Athletics checks (Shove, Grapple, etc).

Club is a light weapon. So you could use it for TWF with shillelagh, so your damage output would be ok.

The main issue is that you're spending a Feat (a valuable resource) or a class level (an extremely valuable resource) in order to get it.

Also, there is no particular reason to be Wis based. If you're worried about your Wis Save, take the Resilient Feat. If you're worried about Perception, take Alert. Either will give you a better result.

[MeeposFire]

Shillelagh (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shillelagh.htm)
Transmutation
Level: Drd 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched nonmagical oak club or quarterstaff
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

Your own nonmagical club or quarterstaff becomes a weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. (A quarterstaff gains this enhancement for both ends of the weapon.) It deals damage as if it were two size categories larger. These effects only occur when the weapon is wielded by you. If you do not wield it, the weapon behaves as if unaffected by this spell.


Of course that version of the spell quickly becomes useless (requires non-magical weapon, only turns it into a +1 weapon) while the 5e version can be a staple for the entire game (one of the few ways to get your caster stat on a weapon attack). The 5e spell is just much more useful for the long term.


As for classes that may like it you have tome warlocks (that for some reason want a melee attack) and bards. One problem for bards is that they would need to wait until level 10 to pick it up (which means a long time of potentially crappy attack rolls) or have to give up college of valor to pick it up earlier (which likely ruins the whole point in the first place).

[Yorrin]

As for classes that may like it you have tome warlocks (that for some reason want a melee attack) and bards. One problem for bards is that they would need to wait until level 10 to pick it up (which means a long time of potentially crappy attack rolls) or have to give up college of valor to pick it up earlier (which likely ruins the whole point in the first place).

It also has use for Cleric, and could even be the basis of a Wis-SAD Ranger build, now that I think about it. And of course its native Druid.

[Edge of Dreams]

Also don't forget that Shillelagh changed from a level 1 spell in 3.5 to a Cantrip in 5e, and from 1 Standard Action to 1 Bonus Action cast time. Those are two substantial buffs to the spell.

[DireSickFish]

It also has use for Cleric, and could even be the basis of a Wis-SAD Ranger build, now that I think about it. And of course its native Druid.

Yeah thinking on it further it seems much more applicable to a Ranger build than a Fighter or Pally. I was forgetting Pallys are cha casting not wis casting this edition so thought there was more synergy there than there was.

I found it interesting to be using a different stat for your weapon attacks so you get a non standard primary ability for a class like Fighter who routinely needs to max dex or str. I had a Fighter in 3.5 that used Zen archery in fullplate and this was my longest played character. So being able to focus on a non standard ability just appeals to me personally.

[rlc]

And when it is magical, does it obtain +1 to its property like the older version of the spell?

Different edition, different stuff.

[akaddk]

I think Poison Spray is a much better option. At first it could do a little less damage if your wisdom is high enough but after 5th level it takes off. Plus it has longer range.

A lot of people think Poison Spray is awesome and, for the most part, it's decent but when you take a closer look it's not as brilliant as people think it is. First of all, it only has a 10-ft. range. Second of all, it requires a Con save which is generally fairly decent for most monsters and if the monster passes, it takes NO damage, not half damage. Third of all, with no attack roll, there can be no crit either.

Personally I prefer Fire Bolt or Chill Touch or even Ray of Frost. And I think Shocking Grasp is a must for any primary caster class in order to get away from melee attackers.

[troqdor1316]

No, you can. I was going to say a bit more about how I came to this conclusion, and hte interesting ideas I ahd on the way, but I don't have the time.

Here are the relevant quotes (emphasis mine):



So your fights might go like this as a dual-shillelagh-wielding character:
You walk around with a shield in your off hand, and two or more clubs in your component pouch. When you see an enemy, you use your first bonus action to cast shillelagh (drawing the club as part of the spellcasting process), drop the shield as your action, and move so you can get into melee next turn (or into melee if your enemy is trying to escape, so you can make AoOs). On your second turn, you cast shillelagh again, drawing the other club, move into melee if you aren't in it already, then attack twice.

As a fighter 2 with the spell, you can use your action surge to keep your armor bonus a bit longer and get in more attacks faster (cast first spell turn 1, move into melee, and attack; use the action surge turn 2 to drop the shield, then cast the second spell and attack twice).


EDIT: As for usefulness of shillelagh, I would guess that it would be most useful for a druid following the circle of the land, and thus not using Wild Shape as their primary combat mode (or is a Moon Druid out of shapes for the day). It isn't necessarily an optimal build (especially at higher levels), but it is an interesting one.

Big problem: RAW, you have to use a club or quarter staff as a material component, which means the spell consumes it. So you have to enchant your club with a different club. You can't just pull it out of your component pouch all magic'd up and start swinging it.

[Grynning]

Big problem: RAW, you have to use a club or quarter staff as a material component, which means the spell consumes it. So you have to enchant your club with a different club. You can't just pull it out of your component pouch all magic'd up and start swinging it.

This is not correct. Material components are not consumed by a spell in 5th ed unless it is stated in the component line of the spell. It's in the rules of magic section, and you can also easily find the examples like Stoneskin that state when they consume the component.

[Kornaki]

Big problem: RAW, you have to use a club or quarter staff as a material component, which means the spell consumes it. So you have to enchant your club with a different club. You can't just pull it out of your component pouch all magic'd up and start swinging it.

No, spells only consumes material components if they explicitly state that they do.

[Jacob.Tyr]

Could be a good pickup for a low-level monk, though it becomes redundant at high levels when their unarmed strikes become better than this spell. Probably better to dip monk on a druid to get the unarmored defense.
The shillelagh is a monk weapon, so they get to replace the d8 with their martial arts damage die (or not, since it isn't higher until 17 anyway). Unless there is a better finesse weapon for monks than daggers, this spell does help with their MAD a bit. Use a d8 club that relies on your wis for attack/damage rolls.

Are monks still as MAD as they look like, to me? Dex/Wis for AC, Str for attack/damage(Unless using a dagger), and Con as per normal? Are fists finesse weapons?

[Grynning]

The shillelagh is a monk weapon, so they get to replace the d8 with their martial arts damage die (or not, since it isn't higher until 17 anyway). Unless there is a better finesse weapon for monks than daggers, this spell does help with their MAD a bit. Use a d8 club that relies on your wis for attack/damage rolls.

Are monks still as MAD as they look like, to me? Dex/Wis for AC, Str for attack/damage(Unless using a dagger), and Con as per normal? Are fists finesse weapons?

The monk's martial arts feature states they can use dex for attack and damage with their unarmed strikes and all monk weapons. They have no reason to take strength at all. The only reason the monk would use it at low levels is for a higher damage one-hander that's magical. Later on their fists become magic and go up to a d8 so it becomes useless.

[Jacob.Tyr]

The monk's martial arts feature states they can use dex for attack and damage with their unarmed strikes and all monk weapons. They have no reason to take strength at all. The only reason the monk would use it at low levels is for a higher damage one-hander that's magical. Later on their fists become magic and go up to a d8 so it becomes useless.

Thanks for the clarification, I didn't realize they could use dex for everything. Yep, no use to monks then.

Any way to sneak this onto a blade-pact Warlock and get him cha to attack and twice to damage?

[MeeposFire]

Thanks for the clarification, I didn't realize they could use dex for everything. Yep, no use to monks then.

Any way to sneak this onto a blade-pact Warlock and get him cha to attack and twice to damage?

Well you could take 6 levels of bard, take college of lore, and take that cantrip as one of your bonus spells. It will cost you some high level warlock stuff though.

About every other way I can think of either costs more levels outside warlock or gives that cantrip as a druid spell which does not help you.

[Inevitability]

Au contraire. It lets you use your caster stat as your combat stat, making it worth anything from +0 (if you have the same strength as your caster stat) to +6 (if your caster stat is 20 and your strength is 8). It's more powerful than it used to be, and it's a bonus action to cast and a cantrip as well.

If you are rolling ability scores, then it can even give you a +9 bonus. Seems worth it in a world where +9 can make the difference between hitting a commoner and hitting an Adult Dragon.