Ability Score Improvement & Feats

[Kerilstrasz]

the way i understand it, when your class table says "Ability Score Improvement" , you choose either:
+2 on 1 ability or +1 on 2 abilities
OR
a feat

correct ???

now..

"Ability Score Improvement" & certain feats state: "As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature."

Are "Ability Score Improvement" & "Feats" different "features" ?

and something else..

Assume X character with 19 strength and a magic item with +2 strength (that gets him at 21 strength) gets to a level for another "Ability Score Improvement".
At this point he has 21 str or 19+2 ?

Thank you for your time :smallwink:

[Demonic Spoon]

Magic items we've seen so far do not give you a + to your ability scores, they set them like in 2e. So, as far as I know, there's no way to raise your attributes above 20.


Feats and ability score increases both cap your attributes at 20.

[hymer]

"Ability Score Improvement" & certain feats state: "As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature."

Are "Ability Score Improvement" & "Feats" different "features" ?

None of them can increase a score above 20. The only thing in the PHB that can (so far as I've seen) is getting to level 20 as a barbarian.


Assume X character with 19 strength and a magic item with +2 strength (that gets him at 21 strength) gets to a level for another "Ability Score Improvement".
At this point he has 21 str or 19+2 ?

We don't know about magical items yet, but I've heard a little bird say that items that does something for your abilities will give them a set number while worn. At any rate, if items did what you suggest (and it'd be potentially hugely abusable) you would track each score independently, and apply the magical item bonus while it's worn.

Edit: Shadowmonked.

[Kerilstrasz]

Magic items we've seen so far do not give you a + to your ability scores, they set them like in 2e. So, as far as I know, there's no way to raise your attributes above 20.

ok.. but lets assume that the very next supplement have such items.. then what? (it's a rather philosophical question so i can understand how it works)



Feats and ability score increases both cap your attributes at 20.

rephrase please.. don't really "get" your answer :smallwink:

[Demonic Spoon]

ok.. but lets assume that the very next supplement have such items.. then what? (it's a rather philosophical question so i can understand how it works)


Presumably that supplement would explain those items work. We don't know because the only ways we have currently of raising ability scores are capped at 20.


rephrase please.. don't really "get" your answer

Unless a supplement comes out that creates an exception to this rule, the highest any attribute can ever get to is 20. Personally, I'm hoping there will be exceptions to this rule for racial bonuses so that you can play things like half-ogres or half-dragons and actually be meaningfully stronger than a human.

[rlc]

ok.. but lets assume that the very next supplement have such items.. then what? (it's a rather philosophical question so i can understand how it works)




rephrase please.. don't really "get" your answer :smallwink:

Most likely, the improvement applies to the base score, so you would have 19+2 and could increase it to 20+2.
But, as demonic spoon said, we don't know for sure.

[Kerilstrasz]

ok.. got it
thank you all :smallwink:

[Person_Man]

Ability Score improvements add to your base Ability Score once and then are gone forever. They're not enhancements that you can add or remove.

Magic Items do not add to your Ability Scores. They set it to a certain number. We know this for a fact because the Basic boxed set has Gauntlets of Ogre Strength in them, which set your Strength at 19. It explicitly says that if your Strength is higher, it has no effect.

This model if followed by almost everything in 5E.

For example, the Monk has an ability which sets the formula for your armor class as 10 + Dex Bonus + Wis Bonus. The Barbarian has an ability that sets the forumula for your armor class as 10 + Dex bonus + Con bonus + shield (if any). But the two can't and don't interact with each other. If you have both, you just use the more favorable formula.

Similarly, Boots of Striding and Springing set your movement speed at a set number, rather then providing a bonus. So a dwarf benefits from them a lot more then a Wood Elf.

The Advantage/Disadvantage system is also built along this philosophy. Either you have Advantage, or you have Disadvantage, or they cancel each other out, even if you have 10 Advantages and 1 Disadvantage. You can't stack bonuses or penalties.

There are a few exceptions. Some class abilities can provide +X bonuses to hit or damage, but are typically rare and small bonuses. +X weapons do provide a +X bonus to hit and damage which stacks with your class abilities, but it's limited to +1, +2, or +3. A few spells provide small numerical bonuses, but require Concentration, so you can only have 1 at a time.

But by and large, it very difficult to stack bonuses in order to achieve game breaking results, which is the whole point.

[Diarmuid]

For example, the Monk has an ability which sets the formula for your armor class as 10 + Dex Bonus + Wis Bonus. The Barbarian has an ability that sets the forumula for your armor class as 10 + Dex bonus + Con bonus + shield (if any). But the two can't and don't interact with each other. If you have both, you just use the more favorable formula.

I actually dont think thats how it works. In the multiclassing rules, it states that if you already have a class feature called "Unarmored Defense", you do not gain a new one if your new class has it. So you get the first iteration you received, not simple the better of the two.

I dont have the book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that's how it read in the multiclassing section. Now, if that's contradicted somewhere else I havent gone over as closely, so be it.

[hymer]

I'm pretty sure that's how it read in the multiclassing section.

And you're right: "If you already have the Unarmored Defense feature, you can't gain it again from another class."

[Laserlight]

I actually dont think thats how it works. In the multiclassing rules, it states that if you already have a class feature called "Unarmored Defense", you do not gain a new one if your new class has it. So you get the first iteration you received, not simple the better of the two.

I dont have the book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that's how it read in the multiclassing section. Now, if that's contradicted somewhere else I havent gone over as closely, so be it.

Page 14, "Armor Class": If you have multiple ways to calculate your AC, you choose which one you want.

[EvilAnagram]

Page 14, "Armor Class": If you have multiple ways to calculate your AC, you choose which one you want.

What he's saying is that you don't get two versions of the Unarmored Defense feature.

[rlc]

What he's saying is that you don't get two versions of the Unarmored Defense feature.

Right, but the question that he was answering was whether or not when you have two sources of it, do you get to go with the higher about, or are you stuck with whichever one you get first.

[Xetheral]

Ability Score improvements add to your base Ability Score once and then are gone forever. They're not enhancements that you can add or remove.

How does this work with the feats that grant +1 to an ability score, but also have prerequisites that could (theoretically) be lost? Heavy Armor Master, for example, increases your strength score by 1, but requires Heavy Armor Proficiency. On page 165, it talks about losing a feat if one loses the prerequisites. If one were to somehow lose Heavy Armor Proficiency, are you saying the strength increase would not be lost? Or even though it's a one-time bonus would one still "undo" the feat?

[akaddk]

I'm actually a bit worried about magical items in 5e. So far the published adventures are giving them out like candy. The Headband of Intellect and Gauntlets of Ogre Power both set an ability to 19 and you can get them at 1st to 2nd level within the adventure.

[SaintRidley]

Right, but the question that he was answering was whether or not when you have two sources of it, do you get to go with the higher about, or are you stuck with whichever one you get first.

And the answer is that you will never have both versions. Period.

[Theodoxus]

True - but so far, the only classes that get unarmored defense are barbarians and monks - so when multiclassing from one to the other, that makes sense (getting all three dex, con & wis would be insane defense).

However, what about Draconic Sorcerers and their draconic resilience? The multiclassing item specifically calls out Unarmored Defense not a generic 'bonus to AC when you're not wearing armor'. What about the Mage Armor spell? I understand that all three of these abilities are exclusive to themselves - you get either Unarmored Defense, Draconic Resilience or Mage Armor - but its certainly possible (though non-particularly optimal) for a barbarian to have a 15 Con or less, or a Monk to have a 15 Wis or less, thus having either the 13+Dex AC abilities be better.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'm actually a bit worried about magical items in 5e. So far the published adventures are giving them out like candy. The Headband of Intellect and Gauntlets of Ogre Power both set an ability to 19 and you can get them at 1st to 2nd level within the adventure.

Maybe they're previewing them to give folks a taste of how they would work since the published adventures are all rather short so far right?

Though seems pretty possible they've changed the considerations on when you get magic items. Seeing that as described the stat boosters would tend to plateau sooner or later, so maybe higher level magic items are focused on utility features (like "item of flying") instead? Can't say I could protest that too strongly to that sort of thing.

[Grynning]

I'm actually a bit worried about magical items in 5e. So far the published adventures are giving them out like candy. The Headband of Intellect and Gauntlets of Ogre Power both set an ability to 19 and you can get them at 1st to 2nd level within the adventure.

Tyranny of Dragons has no magic items in it at all (besides healing potions) in the first 3 episodes, and very few by the end. Lost Mines does have a fair number in it, generally one per episode after the first, but I don't remember seeing the headband or the gauntlets yet. Maybe my group missed them, but we just completed episode 3 and we just have the staff, the sword, the axe, and the ring.

[akaddk]

Tyranny of Dragons has no magic items in it at all (besides healing potions) in the first 3 episodes, and very few by the end. Lost Mines does have a fair number in it, generally one per episode after the first, but I don't remember seeing the headband or the gauntlets yet. Maybe my group missed them, but we just completed episode 3 and we just have the staff, the sword, the axe, and the ring.
Lost has +1 armours and weapons, Boots of Striding & Springing, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Ring of Protection, Spider Staff, Staff of Defence & Wand of Magic Missiles. All pretty potent items. The Staff of Defence gives a spellcaster with those spells on their spell list (not spells known or prepared) an effective +9 to AC against four attacks per day and +4 against all other attacks. That's amazing at low level. The Gauntlets setting Str at 19 at low level is brilliant for a melee character. Ring of Protection is also the type of item you'll keep for the character's lifetime since +1 to AC and all saves is never going to be something you want to lose the benefit of.

The Headband of Intellect is in an Expeditions adventure I think.

[Chaosvii7]

The Headband of Intellect is in an Expeditions adventure I think.

If there is, it is not available to players yet. I'm one of the Adventurer's League DMs at my FLGS and primarily in charge of Expeditions(the other guy runs Encounters and I help as needed). We actually just received the certificates for Magic Items rewarded for Expeditions today and of the ones available, there currently isn't any stat boosters on these certificates.

[akaddk]

If there is, it is not available to players yet. I'm one of the Adventurer's League DMs at my FLGS and primarily in charge of Expeditions(the other guy runs Encounters and I help as needed). We actually just received the certificates for Magic Items rewarded for Expeditions today and of the ones available, there currently isn't any stat boosters on these certificates.

Hmm, I'm sure a player got one in an Expedition game. They're the really short ones, right, in Phlan? Maybe I'm confusing it with something else. I've played so much 5e in the last month or so that I'm not even sure what side is up.

[golentan]

Hmm, I'm sure a player got one in an Expedition game. They're the really short ones, right, in Phlan? Maybe I'm confusing it with something else. I've played so much 5e in the last month or so that I'm not even sure what side is up.

Maybe it's your DM specifically?

[Chaosvii7]

Hmm, I'm sure a player got one in an Expedition game. They're the really short ones, right, in Phlan? Maybe I'm confusing it with something else. I've played so much 5e in the last month or so that I'm not even sure what side is up.

There's a few different Expeditions that take place in a few places. I checked all the PDFs for Expeditions and I don't see a headband of intellect as a reward. I also have physical certificates for the rewards we can hand out, and Defiance in Phlan(the one it sounds like you participated in) does not reward items - just downtime, gold, renown, and XP.

[Vhaluus]

Just a tangential question on the adventure league from someone who hasn't done it. I was planning to run hoard of the dragon queen away from a store with my group. Yet reading about the adventure league I like the faction membership idea and the ability to add sidequests and downtime actions based on factions.

Is there a way to access that extra faction content other than going to a store and running it as a encounters event? Is this extra content worth trying to register it as an event (no real game stores we could play at here unfortunately)

It seems a shame they decided not to include the faction stuff in the campaign book itself.

[Person_Man]

How does this work with the feats that grant +1 to an ability score, but also have prerequisites that could (theoretically) be lost? Heavy Armor Master, for example, increases your strength score by 1, but requires Heavy Armor Proficiency. On page 165, it talks about losing a feat if one loses the prerequisites. If one were to somehow lose Heavy Armor Proficiency, are you saying the strength increase would not be lost? Or even though it's a one-time bonus would one still "undo" the feat?

There is no way to lose a Proficiency in the 5E rules, just like there is no way to lose an Ability Score Increase.

I know that a lot of people, myself included, tend to have a very gamist and/or rules lawyer-ish perspective of things. And from that perspective, class features and feats like cards that you can take into your hand and then discard, or smartphone aps that you can install and uninstall.

But the general design philosophy of 5E tilts pretty heavily towards simplicity and simulation. Requirements for Feats are very minimal and for most Feats non-existant, because its much simpler and more fun that way, and because the game does not want you to have to worry about losing a Feat or having to recalculate your Ability Scores because of some other unintended consequence that arises from some other part of the 5E rules.

More importantly, 5E wants you to think of your character as a person, who learns things and grows stronger or quicker or smarter or whatever over time. Once your character learns to do something or gains some improvement or new ability, you never forget or lose it, because that would make the game too complicated and wouldn't make sense for a person in the real world or in a believable fictional story about adventurers.

Of course the very big exception to this rule is spells, which you can forget by taking a Long Rest. This was brought back into the system for the sake of tradition and/or trying to recapture players who like 1E/2E/3E style spellcasting, and rests upon the shaky rationale provided by the Vancian magic system.

So the system is far from being entirely consistent in a lot of ways. But my general point is that class abilities of all kinds generally (proficiencies, ability score increases, feats, etc) can't be "lost" once they are gained, because that's not within the spirit or plain text of the rules. It's something that you have to infer from theoretical situations or unintended rule interactions.

[Xetheral]

There is no way to lose a Proficiency in the 5E rules, just like there is no way to lose an Ability Score Increase.

I know that a lot of people, myself included, tend to have a very gamist and/or rules lawyer-ish perspective of things. And from that perspective, class features and feats like cards that you can take into your hand and then discard, or smartphone aps that you can install and uninstall.

But the general design philosophy of 5E tilts pretty heavily towards simplicity and simulation. Requirements for Feats are very minimal and for most Feats non-existant, because its much simpler and more fun that way, and because the game does not want you to have to worry about losing a Feat or having to recalculate your Ability Scores because of some other unintended consequence that arises from some other part of the 5E rules.

Good point. So long as all the +1 ability score feats have un-losable prerequisites, it won’t be a problem.

On the other hand, I guess I’m not entirely sanguine that Wizards will ensure that future feats won’t create an issue. I can all too easily see such a feat with a prerequisite that a different ability score be at 13, which would be losable through the Withering Curse mentioned on page 165, or by wildshaping (at least if the prerequisite was a physical attribute and the bonus went to a mental attribute). But until such a feat is introduced, you’re right that it’s a non-issue.


So the system is far from being entirely consistent in a lot of ways. But my general point is that class abilities of all kinds generally (proficiencies, ability score increases, feats, etc) can't be "lost" once they are gained, because that's not within the spirit or plain text of the rules. It's something that you have to infer from theoretical situations or unintended rule interactions.

Very true. And my example above certainly falls into the category of theoretical situations or unintended rule interactions. Hopefully the prospect of losing a feat that grants an ability score increase will simply never come up. Until then, I think you’re right that treating ability score increases as one-off events does indeed make the most sense, particularly in terms of the game’s philosophy.

[Angelalex242]

I've favored the ability bonus AND feat houserule. Why make players choose?

[hymer]

I've favored the ability bonus AND feat houserule. Why make players choose?

While I agree with the sentiment, getting 20 ability points over 20 levels means everyone will have 20 con and 20 in their main stat and 20 in a tertiary stat. There'll be a lot of twenties in an adventuring part. An interesting build choice is also removed.

[HorridElemental]

There is ability score damage as seen from some monster manual leaks... So technically any feat that has an ability score prerequisite (which I believe there is one) could be lost due to that ability.

Of course there could be a rule that says once you gain an ability due to having the prerequisites you never lose that ability if you lose the prerequisites.

Also, if you are a MC Fighter/Cleric and your wisdom got damaged to below 13, do you lose all associated levels that come from cleric?

[Xetheral]

Of course there could be a rule that says once you gain an ability due to having the prerequisites you never lose that ability if you lose the prerequisites.

Page 165 says you lose the feat if you ever lose its prerequisites. But that only applies to feats.

[Wrenn]

There is no way to lose a Proficiency in the 5E rules, just like there is no way to lose an Ability Score Increase.

Purely as a thought exercise;

Let's say a Mountain Dwarf Wizard possessed the Heavily Armored feat (unlikely, I know, just an exercise).

Now Heavy armor Dwarf Wizzy dies and the party only has a Reincarnate spell available to return him.

The Dm rolls randomly on the table and comes up Lightfoot Halfling.

Heavy armor Wizzy now looses his proficiency in light and medium armors, as those were racial traits.

What happens to the Heavily Armored feat? The ability bonus that goes with it?

Edit: Looking back over it I think I would rule that you would lose the ability bonus until you regained the prerequisites for the feat.