Building The Untouchable

[Red Fel]

Hello again. Time for another exciting build challenge thread. Here's today's strange and interesting concept.

In a recent thread, I made an offhand remark about the Tea With Cthulhu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidWeJustHaveteaWithCthulhu) trope. The idea behind the trope, for those who don't want TV Tropes to eat their lives, is this: The characters have a pleasant, affable time spent with a being of godlike or unspeakable power, a being of myth and legend, or a complete monster.

I thought about how this trope would translate to a tabletop-type setting, and realized it doesn't particularly work, for one very simple reason: If it has stats, the PCs can kill it. Even then. Especially then.

But I thought I'd like to try that for a character concept anyway. An entity so powerful that it could be friendly towards the PCs - or towards any other force of cosmic destruction - with total impunity, because they pose it no threat.

Now, the obvious solution would be a God Wizard, or Pun-Pun, but there's no challenge there, and that character would be good at everything, not just this one trick. So let's take them off the table. Here's the concept:

Make a character who can't be harmed. Use DR, PR, SR; use AC shenanigans, concealment and miss chance; use whatever immunities or tricks you like. Perfect defenses, perfect saves. Make him completely untouchable.

This isn't about a tank. This character doesn't have to be able to draw enemy fire. He doesn't have to be able to hit hard, he doesn't need potent attacks or versatile utilities or even impressive ability scores. Nice Charisma would be fun, but hardly necessary. All he needs to be able to do is shrug off everything.

As always, the rules: Sources: 3.0/3.5 or PF, but no mixing. If 3.0/3.5, no Dragon Magazine or third party, but Dragon Compendium is acceptable. If PF, no third party other than DSP. Races and Templates: Any, but try to minimize LA if possible. Classes: Any. Alignment: Any. Levels: Any. Cheese: No Pun-Pun or Dark Chaos Shuffle. Try to make it technically playable (even if functional immortality lacks actual utility). Special: No God Wizards or similar concepts. Too easy. Specialize just a little bit.Pencils up, and... Begin!

[Telonius]

The Emerald Legion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?101587-D-amp-D-3-5-The-Emerald-Legion-Mass-Producing-Ikea-Tarrasques) might be a good place to start.

[Red Fel]

The Emerald Legion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?101587-D-amp-D-3-5-The-Emerald-Legion-Mass-Producing-Ikea-Tarrasques) might be a good place to start.

I remember the Legion. Possibly one of the most complicated build concepts I've ever encountered. Immune to almost everything. They also have LA/RHD of what is this i don't even, which tends to put them on the wrong side of "virtually unplayable," and they have the possibility of becoming mindless, which would put them precisely in unplayable territory.

Ideally, this concept would be slightly less... Convoluted.

[Piggy Knowles]

From my list if 100 Ways to Die (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314755-Comprehensive-List-of-Threats-(or-100-Ways-to-Die)), here are some threats you'll want to find an answer to:




Ability damage
-- Direct ability damage/drain (crippling strike, touch of most incorporeal undead, etc.)
-- Ability penalties (including Ray of Enfeeblement, entangled, fatigued, etc.)
AoEs (blasts, breath weapons, etc.)
-- Reflex half
-- Fort/Will half
-- No save (Kelgore's Grave Mist, etc.)
Death effects
Divinations
-- Contact Other Plane/Commune
-- Scry & Die (heavily buffed attacks via teleportation when I least expect it)
Equipment destruction
-- Sunder
-- Rust monster/warp wood/etc.
-- Disjunction
Hidden enemies
-- Characters with obscene Hide/Move Silently
-- Invisibility (including Superior Invsibility)
Melee attacks
-- High damage charge builds
Mind-affecting spells/abilities
Movement lock-down
-- Solid Fog/Wall of Thorns style spells
-- Things that entangle (Entangle spell, Entangling Ectoplasm, etc.)
-- Grapple effects (large monsters or Black Tentacles)
-- Thicket of Blades or Knight AoO lockdown
-- Forcecage
Negative levels
Passive debuffs (dark companion, blackguard or PoT aura, Focalor, etc.)
Precision damage
-- Sneak attack/sudden strike
-- Skirmish
Ranged attacks
-- Arrows/small missile fire
-- Energy attacks (eldritch blast, etc. - see also "Rays")
-- Large ranged attacks (boulders, siege engines, etc.)
Rays
Save-or-suck (miscellaneous, not covered in other categories)
-- Fortitude
-- Reflex
-- Will
Superior Senses
-- Scent, Tremorsense, Blindsense, Blindsight
-- Mindsight
-- Lifesight
-- Arcane sight (any ability to see magical auras)
-- Deathsense
Surprise
Touch attacks
Vision impairment
-- Blindness
-- Lighting (mundane darkness/low light)
-- Magical darkness
-- Fog effects (obscuring mist & co.)
"Word" spells (Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictum/Word of Chaos)


It's missing some things, such as death by drowning, and transmutations. Still, it's a place to start.

EDIT: Oh, and Death By Awesomeness (positive energy plane explosion) - I always forget that one.

[Seppo87]

I would start with a troll-blooded warforged, with EX flight (grafts, winged creature, unseelie fey, whatever)

Gain immunity to Fire and Acid via template stacking or any other EX means

Cheater of Mystra with DMM. Persist AMF

This is pretty close to invincibility. Not sure if that's enough for you.

[Nettlekid]

I'd love to see how this turns out, because I've wanted to see a character like this for a while. I'm surprised you don't already have a build of your own whipped up, because you're so good with those off-the-wall creative thinking projects.

I think the less magic you use, the less that can go wrong. But of course that's pretty hard to do.

I expect not, but can you manage to get any Epic feats onto this thing? Maybe using the oft-debated Kobold-counts-as-a-Dragon-Dragons-count-as-Epic thing? If so, getting Evasive Reflexes, Improved Combat Reflexes, Thicket of Blades via a dip, feat, or magic item, and really long reach (perhaps by a Drunken Master who wields a cup on a string) means that no one can approach you without you running away. The Friendly Fire spell takes care of all ranged attacks, but if you can manage Epic feats the Deflect Arrows feat chain also does the job nonmagically. Once you're immune to those, getting a Golem's magic immunity somehow leaves you pretty safe, since most non-SR spells use attack rolls and no attack roll can get close to you.

That's a start, right? I know it's rather patchy, but it's a least a different direction from Emerald Legion template-stacking.

[Seppo87]

I expect not, but can you manage to get any Epic feats onto this thing? Maybe using the oft-debated Kobold-counts-as-a-Dragon-Dragons-count-as-Epic thing? If so, getting Evasive Reflexes, Improved Combat Reflexes, Thicket of Blades via a dip, feat, or magic item, and really long reach (perhaps by a Drunken Master who wields a cup on a string) means that no one can approach you without you running away. The Friendly Fire spell takes care of all ranged attacks, but if you can manage Epic feats the Deflect Arrows feat chain also does the job nonmagically. Once you're immune to those, getting a Golem's magic immunity somehow leaves you pretty safe, since most non-SR spells use attack rolls and no attack roll can get close to you.This is what I do whenever I roll an epic mundane character.
I have no idea on how to make this work in pre-epic tho
(and it would be extremely interesting to find out a way)

[Red Fel]

I would start with a troll-blooded warforged, with EX flight (grafts, winged creature, unseelie fey, whatever)

Gain immunity to Fire and Acid via template stacking or any other EX means

Cheater of Mystra with DMM. Persist AMF

This is pretty close to invincibility. Not sure if that's enough for you.

This is substantially in line with (albeit a lesser form of) the Emerald Legion, mentioned above. Let's go through the elements, though.

Warforged gets me the Living Construct subtype, with its attendant immunities - although it subjects the character to those particular reactions to things like Heat Metal and Chill Metal and the like.

The Troll-Blooded feat requires Toughness and first level, which means I'd need to take a flaw to get it, but it grants Regeneration 1, with only fire and acid dealing lethal damage. It gives fatigue in sunlight, but Warforged takes care of that.

Grafts would probably be an easier way to grant it (Ex) flight; the Winged template is too stupid (+2 LA for that? Really?), and the Dragonborn template would rob him of - hold it. I take that back. Troll-Blooded is a feat, not a racial feature, and thus would remain intact.

Dragonborn would leave the Living Construct subtype intact, leave the Troll-Blooded feat intact, and add Wings (because that's the aspect we're going for), all for +0 LA. Alternatively, the Unseelie Fey template does work, although that iron vulnerability is annoying until the DR/cold iron overwrites it.

Now, Cheater of Mystra is a build... Let me see. Is this it (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/916676)? Okay. The Initiate of Mystra feat lets you attempt to cast within an antimagic field or dead magic zone. That's major. Persisting your own AMF would require 7 uses of TU - one for the feat, six for Persistent Spell. You could add one more to tack on Selective Spell, thus avoiding the need to make CL checks in your own AMF.

Okay. At that point, what have we got? Living Construct immunities, nonlethal damage from anything except fire and acid, flight, and the ability to persist and cast from within an AMF, which means protection against all sorts of magical naughtiness, including those things to which a Living Construct is uniquely vulnerable. It's pretty impressive so far.

Anything else, or more detail as to how we can do this on the cheap?

And as an aside - can a construct have Regeneration? Particularly a Warforged. I don't remember the RAW on that. I know that Undead can't, because they have no Con score, but a Warforged does...


I'd love to see how this turns out, because I've wanted to see a character like this for a while. I'm surprised you don't already have a build of your own whipped up, because you're so good with those off-the-wall creative thinking projects.

I think the less magic you use, the less that can go wrong. But of course that's pretty hard to do.

I expect not, but can you manage to get any Epic feats onto this thing? Maybe using the oft-debated Kobold-counts-as-a-Dragon-Dragons-count-as-Epic thing? If so, getting Evasive Reflexes, Improved Combat Reflexes, Thicket of Blades via a dip, feat, or magic item, and really long reach (perhaps by a Drunken Master who wields a cup on a string) means that no one can approach you without you running away. The Friendly Fire spell takes care of all ranged attacks, but if you can manage Epic feats the Deflect Arrows feat chain also does the job nonmagically. Once you're immune to those, getting a Golem's magic immunity somehow leaves you pretty safe, since most non-SR spells use attack rolls and no attack roll can get close to you.

That's a start, right? I know it's rather patchy, but it's a least a different direction from Emerald Legion template-stacking.

Epic feats would probably require Epic levels, barring Dragon-shenanigans, and I'm a bit reluctant to tumble down that rabbit hole. I like where your head is at with regard to avoiding hits from ranged and melee weapons. So let's look at those, at least in terms of non-epics. Evasive Reflexes: Make a five-foot step when I can take an AoO. Smart. Thicket of Blades: Any sort of movement in my threatened area triggers an AoO. Which means a five-foot step. Hold the Line: You didn't mention this, but it bears mention. If Thicket of Blades doesn't give me an AoO against a charge (it should, but if it doesn't), this will; and that means serenely stepping out of the way. Which is ludicrous and I love it. Karmic Strike: How could we forget this? Enemies trigger an AoO when attacking me; I respond by taking a five-foot step out of reach. Deflect Arrows: Avoid one ranged weapon attack per round. Friendly Fire: The spell that says, "No, you." I like an immediate action spell.
So, looking just at those items, we have a character who can take a five foot step whenever anyone moves or attacks him, can block one ranged weapon attack per round, and if he's feeling particularly spiteful, can redirect them.

I'm a bit reluctant to try to give him golem magic immunities, but DMM Persisted Selective AMF (or AMF with Initiate of Mystra) does much the same; is there any way to hook this up with a mini-Cheater build?

[Nettlekid]

This is substantially in line with (albeit a lesser form of) the Emerald Legion, mentioned above. Let's go through the elements, though.

Warforged gets me the Living Construct subtype, with its attendant immunities - although it subjects the character to those particular reactions to things like Heat Metal and Chill Metal and the like.

The Troll-Blooded feat requires Toughness and first level, which means I'd need to take a flaw to get it, but it grants Regeneration 1, with only fire and acid dealing lethal damage. It gives fatigue in sunlight, but Warforged takes care of that.

Grafts would probably be an easier way to grant it (Ex) flight; the Winged template is too stupid (+2 LA for that? Really?), and the Dragonborn template would rob him of - hold it. I take that back. Troll-Blooded is a feat, not a racial feature, and thus would remain intact.

Dragonborn would leave the Living Construct subtype intact, leave the Troll-Blooded feat intact, and add Wings (because that's the aspect we're going for), all for +0 LA. Alternatively, the Unseelie Fey template does work, although that iron vulnerability is annoying until the DR/cold iron overwrites it.

Now, Cheater of Mystra is a build... Let me see. Is this it (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/916676)? Okay. The Initiate of Mystra feat lets you attempt to cast within an antimagic field or dead magic zone. That's major. Persisting your own AMF would require 7 uses of TU - one for the feat, six for Persistent Spell. You could add one more to tack on Selective Spell, thus avoiding the need to make CL checks in your own AMF.

Okay. At that point, what have we got? Living Construct immunities, nonlethal damage from anything except fire and acid, flight, and the ability to persist and cast from within an AMF, which means protection against all sorts of magical naughtiness, including those things to which a Living Construct is uniquely vulnerable. It's pretty impressive so far.

Anything else, or more detail as to how we can do this on the cheap?

And as an aside - can a construct have Regeneration? Particularly a Warforged. I don't remember the RAW on that. I know that Undead can't, because they have no Con score, but a Warforged does...



Epic feats would probably require Epic levels, barring Dragon-shenanigans, and I'm a bit reluctant to tumble down that rabbit hole. I like where your head is at with regard to avoiding hits from ranged and melee weapons. So let's look at those, at least in terms of non-epics. Evasive Reflexes: Make a five-foot step when I can take an AoO. Smart. Thicket of Blades: Any sort of movement in my threatened area triggers an AoO. Which means a five-foot step. Hold the Line: You didn't mention this, but it bears mention. If Thicket of Blades doesn't give me an AoO against a charge (it should, but if it doesn't), this will; and that means serenely stepping out of the way. Which is ludicrous and I love it. Karmic Strike: How could we forget this? Enemies trigger an AoO when attacking me; I respond by taking a five-foot step out of reach. Deflect Arrows: Avoid one ranged weapon attack per round. Friendly Fire: The spell that says, "No, you." I like an immediate action spell.
So, looking just at those items, we have a character who can take a five foot step whenever anyone moves or attacks him, can block one ranged weapon attack per round, and if he's feeling particularly spiteful, can redirect them.

I'm a bit reluctant to try to give him golem magic immunities, but DMM Persisted Selective AMF (or AMF with Initiate of Mystra) does much the same; is there any way to hook this up with a mini-Cheater build?

Don't forget that you can use the Construct Essence line to give a Warforged varying degrees of Construct immunities, in case you're not satisfied with what it already has. I'd be skeptical of using Troll-Blooded, because a Warforged...isn't blooded. Like, it's not descended from Trolls. So...whatever. If you want it. The Con score does mean it can have Regeneration, so maybe it's valid. By the way, if Dragon Magazine material is on the table (which Troll-blooded is) then perhaps I could suggest one of Tippy's favorite RAI workarounds, the Martial Monk, which gets Fighter Bonus Feats under the same lack of prereqs that all Monk feats have. That can nab the Improved Combat Reflexes and/or some of the deflection line.

Would Cheater of Mystra and/or Extraordinary Spell Aim leave your magic items unaffected by the AMF? That's a pretty big sticking point for either use. I'd also suggest Spelldancer as a source of Persistomancy, since if you become immune to Con damage and fatigue it's unlimited in its use.

I think Thicket of Blades works against Tumble as well, since it does say ANY kind of movement. Hold the Line and Stand Still are both ways to get around your foe's movement, if Evasive Reflexes alone don't do it for you. Karmic Strike unfortunately gives you an AoO when you're hit, not just attacked, so it can't be used preemptively like that. Friendly Fire is good as an immediate action but I think the round/level version is better for your purposes, Persisted. But Friendly Fire and the Deflect Arrows are redundant, since I daresay you can attack the ground with Friendly Fire to get rid of the projectiles.

So far, combining all these suggestions looks like some kind of Warforged Fighter/Martial Monk/Ur-Priest/Sacred Fist/Drunken Master to get the spells, range, and feats you need. The feats are ending up being troublesome, especially if you're not up for DCFS cheese.

[Seppo87]

Thicket of Blades is hardly a problem if you manage to get immunity to damage (as we do)
Just teleport away.
Your concentration cannot be interrupted, and you're not going to fail a DC10 check past level 1.
The whole 300ft reach + evasive reflexes is cool but, imho, not required.

On a side note, Martial Monk doesn't allow to pick epic feats. Or at least that's what I was answered in the most recent Q&A 3.5 thread.
This happens because the Fighter's Epic feat list is a separate list, not to be confused with the standard (nonepic) Fighter's feat list.

[Red Fel]

Don't forget that you can use the Construct Essence line to give a Warforged varying degrees of Construct immunities, in case you're not satisfied with what it already has. I'd be skeptical of using Troll-Blooded, because a Warforged...isn't blooded. Like, it's not descended from Trolls. So...whatever. If you want it. The Con score does mean it can have Regeneration, so maybe it's valid. By the way, if Dragon Magazine material is on the table (which Troll-blooded is) then perhaps I could suggest one of Tippy's favorite RAI workarounds, the Martial Monk, which gets Fighter Bonus Feats under the same lack of prereqs that all Monk feats have. That can nab the Improved Combat Reflexes and/or some of the deflection line.

Well, technically, the RAW of the feat only requires a region, but yes, Troll-Blooded has the same problem Unseelie Fey has - a lack of parentage. One explanation is the Powerpuff Girls method: "But Professor Utonium accidentally added an extra ingredient to the concoction." Basically, say someone did something to the Creation Forge from which this Warforged emerged.

As for the Martial Monk, that level of cheese is comparable to the "Dragonwrought Kobold qualifies for anything requiring Dragon irrespective of epic requirements" cheese, and I'd prefer to avoid it if possible.


Would Cheater of Mystra and/or Extraordinary Spell Aim leave your magic items unaffected by the AMF? That's a pretty big sticking point for either use. I'd also suggest Spelldancer as a source of Persistomancy, since if you become immune to Con damage and fatigue it's unlimited in its use.

The Initiate of Mystra feat lets you cast within an AMF or Dead Magic Zone; it doesn't give you protection. Selective Spell on a Persisted AFM gives you protection, which extends to your magic items and gear. And Warforged are already immune to fatigue; with a feat (Shape Soulmeld) you can reduce the temporary Con damage.


Karmic Strike unfortunately gives you an AoO when you're hit, not just attacked, so it can't be used preemptively like that.

Not technically true. AoOs are traditionally resolved before the action that triggers them. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm):
An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).
In fact, Robilar's Gambit, which is traditionally seen as the alternative to Karmic Strike, contains the following language:
Resolve your attack of opportunity after your foe's attack.It then also says:
Further, when an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity, you resolve your attack before he completes the action that provoked the attack of opportunity. (Emphasis added.)

Unlike Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike does not contain the "resolve your AoO after" language, and is therefore governed by the general rule of AoOs (resolve the AoO first) rather than the specific exception of Robilar's Gambit (resolve this AoO after).

So, technically, Karmic Strike works like this: An enemy successfully hits you in melee. You take an AoO. If your AoO somehow prevents their attack, you create a paradox in which the world implodes your AoO happened, but the attack did not.
In this case, we replace AoO with 5-foot step. If someone successfully hits you, you take a five-foot step; as a result, you're too far to hit, so they didn't actually hit you.


Friendly Fire is good as an immediate action but I think the round/level version is better for your purposes, Persisted. But Friendly Fire and the Deflect Arrows are redundant, since I daresay you can attack the ground with Friendly Fire to get rid of the projectiles.

True. But the big advantage of having both is this: Deflect Arrows is (Ex), and so can function at virtually any time, but it requires a hand free and awareness, does not work on massive projectiles, and only operates once per round. Friendly Fire does not require awareness or a hand free, and has no restriction on the size of the projectile, but is a spell and therefore can be dispelled or otherwise meddled with.
I agree that Friendly Fire is generally superior, but spells can be dispelled, and nobody wants to get caught with his metaphysical pants down.


Thicket of Blades is hardly a problem if you manage to get immunity to damage (as we do)

It's not actual immunity to damage. It's a reduction of all damage other than acid and fire to nonlethal damage. (To which Warforged are still subject.)

What ToB does is gives a chance to take a step away basically if anyone moves. If you have a 10' reach weapon, and your enemy has a 5' reach weapon, he can't actually get close enough to attack you. If he has a 10' weapon, you can still get out of the way as soon as he enters range.

[Seppo87]

It's not actual immunity to damage. It's a reduction of all damage other than acid and fire to nonlethal damage. (To which Warforged are still subject.)
That's why I mentioned getting immunity to Fire and Acid.
Either via EX means (template stacking, I think of half-dragon? it's funny but RAW nothing prevents a warforged from having inherited templates, and it could even be explained RAI: just say your warforged is pratially made with a dead Dragon) or much more simply via the Energy Immunity spell, which conveniently lasts 24 hours

[Zaq]

Wasn't The Cube considered basically untouchable? I don't have a link handy, but . . .

[Piggy Knowles]

So, the reason I created the 100 Ways to Die thread that I quoted from upthread was because a while ago, I was working on a very similar build. I ended up moving on to other things before the build was finished, but it had a very similar concept - basically, it wanted to be able to say NOPE! to pretty much every form of attack.

It used some of the same ideas you have, including...


Various ToB counters to completely negate various attacks, and to replace saving throws with skill checks (thereby eliminating failure on a 1).
Stance of Alacrity to be able to use multiple counters in a single round.
Ethereal movement via Phase Cloak's shoulders bind.
Ways to gain off-turn movement, so as to go ethereal in response to attacks (negating LoE and a whole host of abilities). These included things like Evasive Reflexes and various ways to generate AoOs.
Mind blank permanently up via the Heir of Siberys class alongside the Mark of Sentinel.
Maxed out stealth skills alongside mind blank and Darkstalker to beat most methods of detection (and the ability to go ethereal to defeat Mindsight and similar things).
The Mark of Stars feat. Yeah, I had to bold that one, because it was more or less the key to the build. It makes you completely immune to surprise and to being flat-footed. All of these counters and AoO-based ethereal shenanigans were meaningless if they couldn't go off if you were surprised or flat-footed. This feat is worth its weight in gold - it's like a permanent, non-dispellable foresight spell.
Evasion. (Hadn't found a way to fit on Mettle and still keep all the other elements of the build, unfortunately.)
Deflect Arrows or Wind Cloak. (I had two versions of the build - the Deflect Arrows version was cleaner.)
Teleportation, to avoid most lockdown effects.
Mindsight, to avoid pretty much any non-ethereal hidden enemy.


IIRC, I had two basic build stubs: Factotum 8/Warblade 4/Legacy Champion 5/Heir of Siberys 3, and Totemist 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Rogue 2/Warblade 6/Legacy Champion 5/Heir of Siberys 3, though I never settled on a final build that I was happy with.

[Amechra]

Thicket of Blades is hardly a problem if you manage to get immunity to damage (as we do)
Just teleport away.
Your concentration cannot be interrupted, and you're not going to fail a DC10 check past level 1.
The whole 300ft reach + evasive reflexes is cool but, imho, not required.

On a side note, Martial Monk doesn't allow to pick epic feats. Or at least that's what I was answered in the most recent Q&A 3.5 thread.
This happens because the Fighter's Epic feat list is a separate list, not to be confused with the standard (nonepic) Fighter's feat list.

Incorrect!

Martial Monk allows you to select any feat on the Fighter bonus feat list as a bonus feat. Epic Fighter feats are [Epic][Fighter] feats; any and all [Fighter] feats is on the Fighter bonus feat list (by definition of the feat class). [Epic] just means you can't (normally) take them before 21st level.

[Shining Wrath]

A relatively simple idea (AFB so can't find the necessary feats) but:

1) High initiative
2) Extraordinary ability to be simultaneously on several different planes: PM, ethereal, astral, shadow, more if needed
3) Smart enough to recognize what weapon / spell you're about to use
4) DR 20 / -
5) Fast healing 20
6) A big stack of HP
7) SR 50 or so

Our friend responds to any attacks by phasing out of the plane attacked by the weapon or spell in question, then phasing back to mock you. Even if it can't phase out of the way of your attack, you still might miss it because it just happens to not be on the plane you're attacking. If you do hit it, there's the DR / SR, and then the fast healing.

As written, Dimensional Anchor only affects it if it's not already in ethereal or astral form, which our friend is. In fact, it recognizes Dimensional Anchor and responds by being present on all planes, which renders DA ineffective.

SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm)

A dimensional anchor does not interfere with the movement of creatures already in ethereal or astral form when the spell is cast, ...

[Red Fel]

So, the reason I created the 100 Ways to Die thread that I quoted from upthread was because a while ago, I was working on a very similar build. I ended up moving on to other things before the build was finished, but it had a very similar concept - basically, it wanted to be able to say NOPE! to pretty much every form of attack.

It used some of the same ideas you have, including...

*snip*

IIRC, I had two basic build stubs: Factotum 8/Warblade 4/Legacy Champion 5/Heir of Siberys 3, and Totemist 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Rogue 2/Warblade 6/Legacy Champion 5/Heir of Siberys 3, though I never settled on a final build that I was happy with.

Well, then, lay it on me, chief!

Alright, let me take a look at things. ToB counters: I know the ones. There are three Diamond Mind counters that replace your Fort, Ref, and Will saves, respectively, with Concentration checks. Good choice on eliminating autofail on a one, and Concentration isn't a hard skill to maximize. The downside is refreshing them, but since you're using Warblade, there's just one round standing between expended and refreshed. Stance of Alacrity: Good call, makes it easy to use those save-counters. Phase Cloak: Ethereal is good defensively, I get it. It only works while moving, but requires no binds. AoO movement: We discussed upthread. Awesome. Heir of Siberys: Okay. Let's review. Heir of Siberys requires belonging to a Dragonmarked race; in this case, to get the MoS for Sentinel, you need to be Human. The Sentinel Mark of Siberys lets you cast Mind Blank as an SLA once per day. It lasts 24 hours, and if you're not using a caster chassis, HoS 2 gets you all-day Mind Blank. I like. Other Stealth tricks - makes sense, I suppose. Doesn't actually help you shrug things off, but it keeps you from being noticed, so that's something. Mark of Stars: This is amusing. It basically has HoS 2 as a prereq. And yes, never being surprised or flat-footed is amazing; the bonus to AC and Ref saves is icing. Evasion/Mettle: Hmm. On the one hand, with a sufficiently cranked Concentration check, you're going to make every save. But this is save-for-half we're talking about; turning that into save-for-none is pretty useful. But on the other hand, with a Troll-Blooded Warforged, very little will deal lethal damage, even if you save for half. On the other hand, fire is one of those things, and fire spells tend to trigger Ref saves. And if you go the HoS method, you're not getting Warforged. (Although Troll-Blooded is still on the table.) So, yeah. Valuable. Deflect Arrows: Makes sense. You don't have enough Totemist levels to open the Shoulders chakra to make Wind Cloak worthwhile, and one feat is cheaper than two feats. Teleportation: How? Blink Shirt? Shadow Hand maneuvers? Mindsight: Also, how? Shedu Crown? You don't have enough Totemist levels to bind it. Telepathy ACF? No Psion.
I'm intrigued by this. Consider it your motivation to polish off the idea!


A relatively simple idea (AFB so can't find the necessary feats) but:

1) High initiative
2) Extraordinary ability to be simultaneously on several different planes: PM, ethereal, astral, shadow, more if needed
3) Smart enough to recognize what weapon / spell you're about to use
4) DR 20 / -
5) Fast healing 20
6) A big stack of HP
7) SR 50 or so

Our friend responds to any attacks by phasing out of the plane attacked by the weapon or spell in question, then phasing back to mock you. Even if it can't phase out of the way of your attack, you still might miss it because it just happens to not be on the plane you're attacking. If you do hit it, there's the DR / SR, and then the fast healing.

As written, Dimensional Anchor only affects it if it's not already in ethereal or astral form, which our friend is. In fact, it recognizes Dimensional Anchor and responds by being present on all planes, which renders DA ineffective.

Sounds awesome. So how do you get it all?

[Alleine]

Immunity to physical damage is pretty easy I think. I made a character that couldn't be killed by hp damage just to see what it would be like in game, and like your idea he wasn't particularly powerful otherwise.

Gheden(Dragon mag. 313) Human with the Troll Blooded feat.
Gheden is +1 LA and gives Immunity to energy drain attacks by virtue of being a half-undead. It also is immune to nonlethal damage, so now it's immune to all types of hitpoint damage except fire and acid which will shortly no longer be a problem. Pay a very high level cleric or druid to cast Mantle of the Fiery Spirit on you and now you can't take damage from fire! There are also rituals in Savage Species to gain an energy subtype through which we attain acid immunity. If you procure a regeneration that is only bypassed by acid this makes things a little more water-tight as fire immunity can be pierced, but acid cannot. The ritual does add +1 LA though, so there's a limit to how useful that can be.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'll respond in greater detail when I'm at a computer, but yes, telepathy for Mindsight was gained via Shedu Crown, plus the Open Least Chakra feat for the binding. The builds are pretty feat heavy in general, but luckily the Heir of Siberys grants bonus feats in lieu of casting for non-casters. Teleportation was via Blink Shirt, completing the trio of melds you get as a Totemist 2.

Master of Nine would be an interesting addition for Counter Stance, letting you use change stances without tying up your swift actions (which you'll need to keep open because of your reliance on immediates), but it would be pretty hard to fit onto the build.

[Shining Wrath]

... SNIP ...
Sounds awesome. So how do you get it all?

Items to get the plane stuff, and I'm AFB.

[1pwny]

Amkii...? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?360693-Amkii-the-Ineffable-(3-5-Deity-If-I-stat-it-you-CAN-T-kill-it!)) :smallsmile:

[Red Fel]

Immunity to physical damage is pretty easy I think. I made a character that couldn't be killed by hp damage just to see what it would be like in game, and like your idea he wasn't particularly powerful otherwise.

Gheden(Dragon mag. 313) Human with the Troll Blooded feat.
Gheden is +1 LA and gives Immunity to energy drain attacks by virtue of being a half-undead. It also is immune to nonlethal damage, so now it's immune to all types of hitpoint damage except fire and acid which will shortly no longer be a problem. Pay a very high level cleric or druid to cast Mantle of the Fiery Spirit on you and now you can't take damage from fire! There are also rituals in Savage Species to gain an energy subtype through which we attain acid immunity. If you procure a regeneration that is only bypassed by acid this makes things a little more water-tight as fire immunity can be pierced, but acid cannot. The ritual does add +1 LA though, so there's a limit to how useful that can be.

Okay. Let's break this down. First, a Gheden has Half-Undead traits, including: Chance to become fully undead upon death Darkvision Pings as Undead 50% chance to ignore crits and precision damage Immunity to energy drain Save-for-none, lose-for-half against any negative energy spell dealing HP damage Holy water vulnerability Turning vulnerability +2 to various saves Some other extraneous details
Gheden adds to that : Immunity to nonlethal damage Penalty to fine motor skill checks, bonus to Concentration checks Detect Mindless Undead Immunity to fear and confusion Ability modifiers, skill bonuses, and some bonus featsAll for +1 LA. Not bad.

Adding Troll-Blooded means that all damage other than fire or acid becomes nonlethal, to which it is immune. Nice. And that includes the holy water vulnerability, double-nice. Mantle of the Fiery Spirit is an instantaneous (read: not dispellable) spell which adds the Fire subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#fireSubtype), which grants fire immunity but cold vulnerability, the latter isn't a problem because the damage is still nonlethal, to which it is immune. Acid becomes the only issue. And you are correct that the energy subtype ritual in Savage Species can add acid immunity for a +1 LA.

So, basically, we have a total of +2 LA, which gives us immunity to fire, acid, and a bunch of other things, along with all other damage being reduced to nonlethal (to which we are immune). I'd say that's a pretty solid start as far as HP damage goes. Of course, it does leave one susceptible to a variety of hindrances, not the least of which would be the numerous methods designed to murder the ever-living crap out of Undead, but it's one heck of a start.

[avr]

I think the PF rules for monsters as characters are roughly, take the CR and call that the effective level. We're going to start with a Moss Troll (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/giants/troll/troll-moss) (CR 3). This has regeneration 5 stopped only by fire.

Vulnerability to fire is a serious issue so the troll will need to level up as a synthesist summoner and take immunity to fire ASAP. Immunity to other elements can follow as desired.

Undead appearance can by summoner level 12 give immunity to disease, exhaustion, fatigue, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning. We'll take it, even though all five (edit:elemental) immunities and this will cost all the evolution points available at 12th level.

Later levels can pick up damage reduction 5/lawful, then 10/lawful.

Spells will require charisma higher than that listed for a moss troll. I'm not sure what happens to the stats when converting a monster to a PC, but even if there's no change you can raise it via levels and/or items. Ablative Barrier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/ablative-barrier) is a decent start, Protection from Evil/Magic Circle vs. Evil, Stoneskin, Spell Turning and Protection from Spells all help and mostly have a decent duration.

It's not immune to hp damage the way some of the above are, but this troll is really hard to kill.

[Red Fel]

I think the PF rules for monsters as characters are roughly, take the CR and call that the effective level. We're going to start with a Moss Troll (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/giants/troll/troll-moss) (CR 3). This has regeneration 5 stopped only by fire.

Ah, a PF suggestion. Let's see. The Moss Troll isn't a bad start, although that Fear of Fire feature is a nuisance, and I don't think Synthesist gets rid of it.


Vulnerability to fire is a serious issue so the troll will need to level up as a synthesist summoner and take immunity to fire ASAP. Immunity to other elements can follow as desired.

Undead appearance can by summoner level 12 give immunity to disease, exhaustion, fatigue, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning. We'll take it, even though all five (edit:elemental) immunities and this will cost all the evolution points available at 12th level.

Later levels can pick up damage reduction 5/lawful, then 10/lawful.

Okay. Let's take a look at this part, then. Synthesist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist) is an archetype of Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner) that basically merges the Summoner and his Eidolon. Use the Eidolon's physical stats, Synthesist's mental stats, Eidolon's armor and BAB, and abilities of both. Good times. Now, you're suggesting a list of Eidolon features (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons) which can be added, which would benefit the Synthesist (since he is his Eidolon, and vice-versa), including: Immunity (Fire), 2 pts. Exactly what it says on the tin, immunity to fire. Undead Appearance, 2 pts. Healed by negative energy, harmed by positive (not a problem, because Fused Link does not use either positive or negative energy), and responds to abilities that target undead; bonuses against disease, exhaustion, fatigue, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning. For +4 pts, from level 12 on, you can upgrade this to immunity. With you so far. DR/alignment, 3 pts. Choose one of the four, gain DR 5. After level 12, +2 pts to gain DR 10.
To max these out - fire immunity, Undead immunities, and DR 10/something, requires a total of 13 pts. You will have enough for that, easily. At level 1, you have 3 pts; that's enough for Fire Resistance (you can't take immunity until 7). Level 2 bumps you up to 4 pts, and you can buy the first tier of Undead Appearance. Dicker around for a few levels; at level 7, you have 10 pts, swap out Resistance for Immunity, and bump Undead Appearance up +2. That's only 6 pts (2 for Immunity, 4 for Undead); you still have some left over. Let's take Shadow Form (2 pts) for 20% miss chance. At 9th level, you have 13 points, and can take your first DR. The DR costs 3 pts, Immunity 2, Undead 4; that's only 9. Then at 12th level, you have 16 pts, and can grab upgrades for Undead and DR, still only totaling 13 pts. We can throw on Shadow Form and still be at 15, then at next level take Flight (Ex) for another +2.

If instead we wanted to stack up our immunities, it would take 2 pts for each immunity (total 10 pts), plus the six for Undead, total 16 pts. Yeah, that's a whopper, and ironically doesn't help us against purely physical attacks. (The DR and Concealment do, but they'd take a few more levels.) On the other hand, the Regeneration covers that base nicely.


Spells will require charisma higher than that listed for a moss troll. I'm not sure what happens to the stats when converting a monster to a PC, but even if there's no change you can raise it via levels and/or items. Ablative Barrier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/ablative-barrier) is a decent start, Protection from Evil/Magic Circle vs. Evil, Stoneskin, Spell Turning and Protection from Spells all help and mostly have a decent duration.

It's not immune to hp damage the way some of the above are, but this troll is really hard to kill.

I do like how Regeneration works here. And admittedly, the above gives it flight, immunity to fire, alignment-based DR, and a slew of immunities. It's not a bad start. The Fear of Fire thing is still an issue, but it's noticeably less cheesy overall.

[Ettina]

I would start with a troll-blooded warforged, with EX flight (grafts, winged creature, unseelie fey, whatever)

Can you be a troll-blooded warforged? I thought you had to be an organic creature to be troll-blooded. It doesn't really make sense otherwise. How would you have troll blood if you don't have blood?

[dysprosium]

I always follow these threads that Red Fel makes since they are always entertaining.

I just have to point out that the Troll Blooded feat, while great, was in Dragon Magazine 319 and did not get reprinted into the Dragon Compendium. Which makes it not eligible according to the OP.

It is also a Greyhawk regional feat so that would put the kibash on cross setting bans with warforged, since they originate in Eberron.

[Piggy Knowles]

Warforged also appeared in MM3, so one could argue that they are no longer setting-specific despite the fluff.

[Red Fel]

Can you be a troll-blooded warforged? I thought you had to be an organic creature to be troll-blooded. It doesn't really make sense otherwise. How would you have troll blood if you don't have blood?

Technically, Troll-Blooded is merely a regional feat, not a template, and does not actually require you to be an organic creature capable of reproduction (although the fluff would strongly suggest it). But see the Powerpuff Girls solution, above.


I always follow these threads that Red Fel makes since they are always entertaining.

I'm pleased to aim.


I just have to point out that the Troll Blooded feat, while great, was in Dragon Magazine 319 and did not get reprinted into the Dragon Compendium. Which makes it not eligible according to the OP.

Argh, hoisted by my own Picard! (Seriously, Captain, is that necessary?) You're right, I did say no Dragon Magazine. Pity, because Troll-Blooded does handle things rather neatly.

Okay, new rule: Dragon Magazine strongly discouraged, but I'm willing to hear your case.

Good catch, though.


It is also a Greyhawk regional feat so that would put the kibash on cross setting bans with warforged, since they originate in Eberron.

Well...


Warforged also appeared in MM3, so one could argue that they are no longer setting-specific despite the fluff.

That. MM3 made them delightfully non-setting-specific; although some of their fluff is still limited, the race itself no longer is.

[dysprosium]

I always forget they are in MM3.

Some DMs are more stringent than others though.

[Red Fel]

I always forget they are in MM3.

Some DMs are more stringent than others though.

I'm pretty sure that by the time I've cranked out an Heir of Siberys with ToB counters, Mark of Stars, Evasion, and a Phase Cloak, even the most lenient DMs are going to be raising their eyebrows. Let's pretend that the DM is a potted plant for purposes of this exercise; it's easier that way.

[Piggy Knowles]

Speaking of Evasion, the starmantle cloak from BoED combined with Evasion and a way to not auto-fail on a 1 makes you functionally immune to weapon damage. It's pricey, but it seems to fit in well here.

[Red Fel]

Speaking of Evasion, the starmantle cloak from BoED combined with Evasion and a way to not auto-fail on a 1 makes you functionally immune to weapon damage. It's pricey, but it seems to fit in well here.

Ooh, there's a naughty thought. Let's have a look-see... Yeah, 132K is pricey. It sheds light, makes one impervious to non-magical weapons (score!), and destroys them on contact. That last part's a bit of a toss-up; on the one hand, I might have wanted to keep those after murdering their owners; on the other, nothing says "You're no threat to me" like a cloak that says, "Weapon? What weapon?" And the cloak offers a DC 15 save-for-half Ref save on any magical weapon attack, which is insane. You're absolutely right, Evasion would turn that into save-for-none, and if I could get Improved Evasion, it would mean I take, at most, half damage from all weapon-based attacks, which is a bit grotesque. With Action Before Thought, and enough ranks in Concentration, that's a guaranteed protection. Which is outrageous and I love it.

[Piggy Knowles]

You can save some money by using the starmantle spell instead of the item, but it's touch range and only lasts a minute per level, so you'd need some Ocular Spell shenanigans to persist it.

EDIT: Also, by the time you can afford a starmantle cloak, the money you'd get from looting nonmagical weapons will be more or less meaningless.

[Red Fel]

You can save some money by using the starmantle spell instead of the item, but it's touch range and only lasts a minute per level, so you'd need some Ocular Spell shenanigans to persist it.

EDIT: Also, by the time you can afford a starmantle cloak, the money you'd get from looting nonmagical weapons will be more or less meaningless.

Who said I'd want to sell them? I'd sit on an uncomfortable chair made out of a bunch of them, mocking the universe's inability to kill me. After all, someone who sits on a throne made of swords is practically immortal, isn't he?

[Chronos]

The problem with Initiate of Mystra and an antimagic field is that it doesn't do anything to stop other Initiates of Mystra. Or, for that matter, someone just disjoining your AMF and then unleashing on you before you can bring it back up.

I also still say that the Selective AMF trick doesn't work. If the AMF doesn't affect you, it doesn't affect you. So, for instance, if someone aims a fireball at you, you get burned (since you're not affected by AMF), but nothing else does (since it is).

Where is the Mark of Stars feat? I can't find it in my usual big list.

Regeneration bypassed by fire together with immunity to fire still needs to contend with searing spell, and probably also with hellfire.

One possible alternative to Troll-Blooded, if you want regeneration, is a visit to a Shriver, from whichever Fiendish Codex it is that talks about the hells. If you can survive it (so you'd better be pretty tough even before you get there), you get regeneration that's bypassed only by good or chaotic. It only lasts for a year by default, but you can extend that by performing vile or obeisant acts (some of the options for obeisant acts are quite consistent with being good, if you want that). The catch is that a shriver only works on humanoids... but you could start out as humanoid, go through the shriver, and then become something else through a PrC or whatever while continually refreshing the duration.

Are we worried about divine entities? Tea with literal Cthulhu would suggest it, but the right divine abilities can go through most mortal defenses like tissue paper.

[Red Fel]

The problem with Initiate of Mystra and an antimagic field is that it doesn't do anything to stop other Initiates of Mystra. Or, for that matter, someone just disjoining your AMF and then unleashing on you before you can bring it back up.

Absolutely true.


I also still say that the Selective AMF trick doesn't work. If the AMF doesn't affect you, it doesn't affect you. So, for instance, if someone aims a fireball at you, you get burned (since you're not affected by AMF), but nothing else does (since it is).

Perhaps. But it has to pass through the AMF to hit my character. Which it can't do (unless it's an instantaneous conjuration).


Where is the Mark of Stars feat? I can't find it in my usual big list.

Dragonmarked, same book that gave us all of those great Dragonmark PrCs.


Regeneration bypassed by fire together with immunity to fire still needs to contend with searing spell, and probably also with hellfire.

Also true. At that point it was just fire immunity rocket tag, though.


One possible alternative to Troll-Blooded, if you want regeneration, is a visit to a Shriver, from whichever Fiendish Codex it is that talks about the hells. If you can survive it (so you'd better be pretty tough even before you get there), you get regeneration that's bypassed only by good or chaotic. It only lasts for a year by default, but you can extend that by performing vile or obeisant acts (some of the options for obeisant acts are quite consistent with being good, if you want that). The catch is that a shriver only works on humanoids... but you could start out as humanoid, go through the shriver, and then become something else through a PrC or whatever while continually refreshing the duration.

Hmm... An interesting (if disturbing and probably high-level) idea.


Are we worried about divine entities? Tea with literal Cthulhu would suggest it, but the right divine abilities can go through most mortal defenses like tissue paper.

I think it's safe to say that if divine entities are in play, all bets are off. When you're dealing with something that can literally rewrite reality on whim, nothing short of immunity to that will protect you. And if that were the case, this entire thread would consist of a single post saying "Build a Greater Deity."

[Geriont]

Sooo, i dont really know if this works, but im gonna give it a shot.

Any class with psionic powers.
True mind switch with a Tarrasque. (I found noting in either the spell or the monsters manual entry to prevent it, aside from high resistance on the side of the Tarrasque)

You now have a terribly hard to take down body, but still the mind of a psionic, and therefor also its spells? (Havent played with psionics at all)
Of coarse, you still have to worry about someone casting wish or miracle on your unconscious body, but between high level psion and Tarrasque body i guess you would be the most powerful thing on the world. Dont know about gods though.

[Red Fel]

Sooo, i dont really know if this works, but im gonna give it a shot.

Any class with psionic powers.
True mind switch with a Tarrasque. (I found noting in either the spell or the monsters manual entry to prevent it, aside from high resistance on the side of the Tarrasque)

You now have a terribly hard to take down body, but still the mind of a psionic, and therefor also its spells? (Havent played with psionics at all)
Of coarse, you still have to worry about someone casting wish or miracle on your unconscious body, but between high level psion and Tarrasque body i guess you would be the most powerful thing on the world. Dont know about gods though.

Switching with the Tarrasque is certainly a thing. Unfortunately, as many posters have demonstrated, the Tarrasque is shockingly killable. Like by an army of mooks killable. Like by a single non-epic PC killable. Like by one guy with an Allip minion killable.

Also relevant is the fact that a Tarrasque does not simply walk into anywhere. It's one thing to have tea with Cthulhu, it's another for the massive extradimensional and uncaring god-thing to descend physically into the material world, his corporeal form crushing mountains even as his very presence corrodes reality. Kind of hard to stop by for a spot of tea and a friendly chat when you're basically a moving mountain.

[Geriont]

Switching with the Tarrasque is certainly a thing. Unfortunately, as many posters have demonstrated, the Tarrasque is shockingly killable.

1. Like by an army of mooks killable.
2. Like by a single non-epic PC killable.
3. Like by one guy with an Allip minion killable.

Also relevant is the fact that a Tarrasque does not simply walk into anywhere. It's one thing to have tea with Cthulhu, it's another for the massive extradimensional and uncaring god-thing to descend physically into the material world, his corporeal form crushing mountains even as his very presence corrodes reality.
4. Kind of hard to stop by for a spot of tea and a friendly chat when you're basically a moving mountain.

Remember, we are not talking about a Tarrasque here, we are talking about a Tarrasque with Psion levels (probably 20, because level appropriate encounter).
1. No lethal damage, so all they can do to you is helplessly f(l)ail at you, even if they get through the damage reduction while you stomp/swallow/tear away. All you have to do is to avoid having a DM use mass combat rules shenanigans on you. Also, Psion spells. And frightful presence, that army would probably not even approach you.
2. Please elaborate (preferably by linking me the thread in question).
3. An Allip? You make the Madness DC instantly (DC 16, Will save +20 +whatever you get from being a psion), you can rummage around in its thoughts as much as you like (immune against ability damage) and the same applies to its attacks... Oh wait, dont tell me that "drain" is different from "damage" and therefor not covered...
4. The way I see it, you want to have tea with something that is (by all accounts) a gigantic elder god that drives people into madness (possibly INT or WIS damage?) by just being there, so it would be most fitting to BE a gigantic elder thing that drives people into fear and despair by just being there.

The point was to create a build (which I technically didnt do) for a character that would be so immune against everything that nobody would want to mess with it, partly because they couldnt. And a friggin Tarrasque with magic class levels and access to magical items is in my opinion as terrifying and indestructible as you can go without cheesing the whole system (overly).

[Red Fel]

The point was to create a build (which I technically didnt do) for a character that would be so immune against everything that nobody would want to mess with it, partly because they couldnt. And a friggin Tarrasque with magic class levels and access to magical items is in my opinion as terrifying and indestructible as you can go without cheesing the whole system (overly).

This is a point with which I definitely agree. The Tarrasque is massive and scary, but manageable. A Tarrasque with 20 levels of Psion is basically a God Wizard who doesn't need to use Shapechange to make his point.

[Geriont]

Ok, then the build I go for in the entry is ANY psion able to get through the Tarrasques spell resistance, therefor giving it the ability to become immune against most things... It doesnt work that way, does it? :smallwink:

And I actually have to ask again, can you elaborate on the "god wizard" thing? A quick search brought up nothing resembling a definition, so I just assumed you couldnt create a god for this.

[Val666]

Uhm...I once thought about being a Warforged Pugilist Fighter (which turns all physical damage into nonlethal damage) and taking the feat Improved Resiliency: "You are immune to nonlethal damage but lose the ability to benefit from regeneration or fast healing, even if you would gain those qualities through magic or the application of a template".

The drawback is not having any sort of regeneration or fast healing, which in most of the cases are used to heal physical damage, so no virtual "drawback".

If that combo doesn't work, punch me :(

[Red Fel]

And I actually have to ask again, can you elaborate on the "god wizard" thing? A quick search brought up nothing resembling a definition, so I just assumed you couldnt create a god for this.

Basically, the "God Wizard" is the Wizard who does everything. He has all the spells, he knows all the tricks, he casts divinations well in advance and knows exactly what's coming, and is prepared accordingly. In an emergency (which will never arise, because see above), he can retreat to his time-accelerated private demiplane where he has a tower waiting, loaded with protections and wards that will straight-up murder anyone who trespasses, can take his time scrying on the threat, and then can return days later (although it will seem like minutes) armed with total annihilation.

A well-financed Psion can pull that sort of thing off as well. (Read: Hire a spell-to-power Erudite to learn all the spells, convert them into powers, and then transfer them via Psychic Chirurgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm).) You now have a Tarrasque with all the spells and powers. Game over, man, game over.


Uhm...I once thought about being a Warforged Pugilist Fighter (which turns all physical damage into nonlethal damage) and taking the feat Improved Resiliency: "You are immune to nonlethal damage but lose the ability to benefit from regeneration or fast healing, even if you would gain those qualities through magic or the application of a template".

The drawback is not having any sort of regeneration or fast healing, which in most of the cases are used to heal physical damage, so no virtual "drawback".

If that combo doesn't work, punch me :(

Okay, back up a moment. I don't have that issue of Dragon, so you'll have to clarify for me: What is it, exactly, that Pugilist gets that turns physical damage into nonlethal? Or are you talking about the PF Fighter archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/icosa-entertainment-llc/pugilist-fighter-archetype) that gets DR/nonlethal at level 1, and immunity to nonlethal at 19 (which isn't what you described)?

If it works, then yes, in theory, he would be physically immune. But at higher levels, physical damage is only one minor threat, and by excluding Regeneration, we lose out on the possibility of using that to reduce other forms of damage.

[Alleine]

Okay, back up a moment. I don't have that issue of Dragon, so you'll have to clarify for me: What is it, exactly, that Pugilist gets that turns physical damage into nonlethal? Or are you talking about the PF Fighter archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/icosa-entertainment-llc/pugilist-fighter-archetype) that gets DR/nonlethal at level 1, and immunity to nonlethal at 19 (which isn't what you described)?

If it works, then yes, in theory, he would be physically immune. But at higher levels, physical damage is only one minor threat, and by excluding Regeneration, we lose out on the possibility of using that to reduce other forms of damage.

Dragon Magazine 310, and man that is a much simpler way than what I was doing. The Pugilist Variant allows you to take a number of special abilities in place of the normal fighter bonus feats. What we're interested in specifically is Shake It Off: The pugilist develops non-lethal damage only and reduces the duration of all stunning effects by 1 round, with a minimum of 1 round. The pugilist can take this ability multiple times; its effects stack.

So despite the astoundingly poor wording I think it says you only take nonlethal damage. Ever. Only kind of damage you take. Couple that with a Warforged taking Improved Resiliency and it's like the regeneration -> immune to nonlethal trick only without worrying about energy immunity, trollbane, the Graymantle spell, and an AMF.

EDIT: Being that Shake It Off is a Special Ability that is not specified as either Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-Like there is **** all anyone can do it take it away from you. It can also be achieved at level one with no level adjustment. The only downside in regards to this challenge is that it is from Dragon Magazine and has some impressively poor wording/editing.

[Jeff the Green]

Basically, the "God Wizard" is the Wizard who does everything. He has all the spells, he knows all the tricks, he casts divinations well in advance and knows exactly what's coming, and is prepared accordingly. In an emergency (which will never arise, because see above), he can retreat to his time-accelerated private demiplane where he has a tower waiting, loaded with protections and wards that will straight-up murder anyone who trespasses, can take his time scrying on the threat, and then can return days later (although it will seem like minutes) armed with total annihilation.

That's Batman. God buffs his allies and BFCs or debuffs his foes. More efficient, less likely to see banning, and makes the mundanes feel like they're contributing, the poor sods.

More on topic, I could have sworn there was a way to get regeneration bypasses by something other than fire. That'd take care of Searing Spell.

[Nettlekid]

That's Batman. God buffs his allies and BFCs or debuffs his foes. More efficient, less likely to see banning, and makes the mundanes feel like they're contributing, the poor sods.

More on topic, I could have sworn there was a way to get regeneration bypasses by something other than fire. That'd take care of Searing Spell.

The aforementioned Shriver grants Regeneration which is overcome by only Good- and Chaotic-aligned damage. That's a lot harder to come by than fire. If you don't find a way to bypass that problem, I suggest just being Chaotic Good aligned and giving any Chaos-and-Good-wielding enemies reasons not to fight you.

[Red Fel]

Dragon Magazine 310, and man that is a much simpler way than what I was doing. The Pugilist Variant allows you to take a number of special abilities in place of the normal fighter bonus feats. What we're interested in specifically is Shake It Off: The pugilist develops non-lethal damage only and reduces the duration of all stunning effects by 1 round, with a minimum of 1 round. The pugilist can take this ability multiple times; its effects stack.

So despite the astoundingly poor wording I think it says you only take nonlethal damage. Ever. Only kind of damage you take. Couple that with a Warforged taking Improved Resiliency and it's like the regeneration -> immune to nonlethal trick only without worrying about energy immunity, trollbane, the Graymantle spell, and an AMF.

Guh. Yeah, that's a bit insane, yeah. I'd note, however, that even if it reduces damage to nonlethal, you're still taking nonlethal damage, which means you can be KO'd.

... Except that you took Improved Resiliency, so no. Nice.


EDIT: Being that Shake It Off is a Special Ability that is not specified as either Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-Like there is **** all anyone can do it take it away from you. It can also be achieved at level one with no level adjustment. The only downside in regards to this challenge is that it is from Dragon Magazine and has some impressively poor wording/editing.

Generally speaking, it's my understanding that an ability without an (Ex), (Sp), or (Su) defaults to (Su), meaning that it fails within an AMF. Can I get a citation on that, though?

And yes, there's the usual disclaimer about Dragon Magazine.


That's Batman. God buffs his allies and BFCs or debuffs his foes. More efficient, less likely to see banning, and makes the mundanes feel like they're contributing, the poor sods.

That's it, guh, you're right. All of these fancy-pants Wizards in their fancy-pants costumes with their fancy-pants titles. God Wizard this, Batman Wizard that. Know what you call the party Fighter? A Fighter. I tell you, kids nowadays...


More on topic, I could have sworn there was a way to get regeneration bypasses by something other than fire. That'd take care of Searing Spell.

The aforementioned Shriver grants Regeneration which is overcome by only Good- and Chaotic-aligned damage. That's a lot harder to come by than fire. If you don't find a way to bypass that problem, I suggest just being Chaotic Good aligned and giving any Chaos-and-Good-wielding enemies reasons not to fight you.

Actually, DR/good would be great, if it were possible. And you suggested that it might be. Creatures wielding Good weapons are, I think, the least likely to attack someone visibly Good. Certainly, Evil has no qualms about attacking Evil, and Law and Chaos have no real qualms about attacking anybody if it fits their particular idiom, but Good should at least be talking to a not-an-obvious-threat person. S'probably the safest alignment-based DR to take, really.

However, DR doesn't actually help against spells, which is the problem that Searing Spell presents. Unless we get regeneration from a non-fire source. War Trolls, as I recall, get Regeneration with acid vulnerability, but not fire - that's a possibility, but unfortunately it's kind of hard to make a War Troll hybrid. The Emerald Legion does it by template-stacking, for instance.

[Jeff the Green]

Actually, DR/good would be great, if it were possible. And you suggested that it might be. Creatures wielding Good weapons are, I think, the least likely to attack someone visibly Good. Certainly, Evil has no qualms about attacking Evil, and Law and Chaos have no real qualms about attacking anybody if it fits their particular idiom, but Good should at least be talking to a not-an-obvious-threat person. S'probably the safest alignment-based DR to take, really.

The problem is that if a devil wants to kill you he can eat the two negative levels and wield a holy anarchic sword.

[Chronos]

The aforementioned Shriver grants Regeneration which is overcome by only Good- and Chaotic-aligned damage. That's a lot harder to come by than fire. If you don't find a way to bypass that problem, I suggest just being Chaotic Good aligned and giving any Chaos-and-Good-wielding enemies reasons not to fight you.
That's tricky, if we want it to last for more than a year. You need to perform vile and/or obeisant acts to refresh the duration, and enough of those will shift your alignment to evil and/or lawful. Chaotic Good is also the alignment that's most vulnerable to the Word spells, while Lawful Evil can fairly easily become immune to all four of them.

Probably the best use of a Shriver is to stack it with some other form of regeneration. If you have both Shriver regeneration and regeneration bypassed by fire, for instance (and stack on Mantle of the Fiery Spirit, because that's nearly free so why not), then you'll only take real damage from searing aligned fire damage, which would be really hard to come by. Having the other form of regeneration will also make it a lot easier to survive the Shriver in the first place.

[Nettlekid]

Actually, DR/good would be great, if it were possible. And you suggested that it might be. Creatures wielding Good weapons are, I think, the least likely to attack someone visibly Good. Certainly, Evil has no qualms about attacking Evil, and Law and Chaos have no real qualms about attacking anybody if it fits their particular idiom, but Good should at least be talking to a not-an-obvious-threat person. S'probably the safest alignment-based DR to take, really.

However, DR doesn't actually help against spells, which is the problem that Searing Spell presents. Unless we get regeneration from a non-fire source. War Trolls, as I recall, get Regeneration with acid vulnerability, but not fire - that's a possibility, but unfortunately it's kind of hard to make a War Troll hybrid. The Emerald Legion does it by template-stacking, for instance.

I didn't say DR, I said Regeneration. Any kind of damage which isn't Good or Chaotic is turned subdual. Searing Spell and any other spell that isn't Consecrated or whatever is turned nonlethal, and probably ignored if you've got that going.


The problem is that if a devil wants to kill you he can eat the two negative levels and wield a holy anarchic sword.

That's true, but it's easier to start from that position than to start from "Any caster can take Searing Spell." If you make a build that's next to impossible to hit anyway, this just ups the survival chance, since the attack can't resort to nuking you from the sky.


That's tricky, if we want it to last for more than a year. You need to perform vile and/or obeisant acts to refresh the duration, and enough of those will shift your alignment to evil and/or lawful. Chaotic Good is also the alignment that's most vulnerable to the Word spells, while Lawful Evil can fairly easily become immune to all four of them.

Probably the best use of a Shriver is to stack it with some other form of regeneration. If you have both Shriver regeneration and regeneration bypassed by fire, for instance (and stack on Mantle of the Fiery Spirit, because that's nearly free so why not), then you'll only take real damage from searing aligned fire damage, which would be really hard to come by. Having the other form of regeneration will also make it a lot easier to survive the Shriver in the first place.

I honestly don't see the vile or obeisant acts turning your alignment Evil or Lawful. Murder is on the Vile list, and yet all adventurers partake in murder very frequently. Goblin bandits? Dragon tyrant? Demon tempter? You kill them. It's part of a day's work, but it's murder nonetheless, and that ought to suit the Shriver's needs. Similarly, the Obeisant list includes "disciplining an underling", "following a rule you consider stupid," and "obeying a leader you do not respect," all of which I could imagine a headstrong Chaotic Neutral freedom fighter doing at any time they're trying not to draw attention while they're planning anarchy, or something along those lines.

Ideally your super-untouchable-Tea-With-Cthulhu guy isn't going to be worried about the Word spells anyway. They're SR: Yes, after all.

That's true about the stacking Regeneration.

[Alleine]

Generally speaking, it's my understanding that an ability without an (Ex), (Sp), or (Su) defaults to (Su), meaning that it fails within an AMF. Can I get a citation on that, though?

The SRD has this snippet from the PHB page 180:


Natural Abilities
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Interesting though not completely relevant is the discussion where I found the page reference to this stating that nowhere else in any book does it reference natural abilities ever again.

[Chronos]

Most adventurers commit homicide on a regular basis, but most do not commit murder. Roy is a killer, but Belkar is a murderer.

[Nettlekid]

Most adventurers commit homicide on a regular basis, but most do not commit murder. Roy is a killer, but Belkar is a murderer.

I'm pretty sure that's a difference in semantics, and I'm not even sure that holds up.
Murder is an intentional killing that is:
-unlawful (in other words, the killing isn't legally justified), and
-committed with "malice aforethought" (intent to harm or kill or reckless disregard for life).

Malice aforethought doesn't mean that a killer has to have acted out of spite or hate. Malice aforethought exists if a killer intends to kill a person. In addition, in most states, malice aforethought isn't limited to intentional killings. Malice aforethought can also exist if:
-a killer intentionally inflicts very serious bodily harm that causes a victim's death, or
-a killer's behavior, which demonstrates extreme reckless disregard for the value of human life, results in a victim's death.


That pretty succinctly describes most adventurers' mentality toward battle: I'm going to fight this person I just met in the wild and my desire is to kill them as opposed to nonlethally subduing them. That's why Vow of Peace is so troublesome to a party, because they want to murder!

Now I suppose you could argue that murder is between two humans, or two creatures of the same species, and by that logic an Elf can't murder a Dwarf. But I think that Elves, Dwarves, and the Devils encouraging them to fight would disagree.

But even if the average murderhobo adventures don't count as murder, they could still retain the Shriver's effects by doing things from one of the two lists and not doing anything on the other. For example, you mentioned Belkar, who's Chaotic Evil. He does enough Vile things to retain the Shriver's effects, but isn't at risk of becoming Lawful Evil, so he won't lose them or go to Baator. Similarly, I'd say Roy does enough Obeisant things to retain the Shriver's effects, but isn't at risk of going Lawful Evil either. I'd say you could be Lawful Good (doing lawful things), Neutral Good (doing both lawful and chaotic things), True Neutral (doing law and chaos and/or good and evil), Chaotic Neutral (doing good and evil things), or Chaotic Evil (doing evil things) and keep the Shriver's effects without risking a change to your alignment.

[Alleine]

I didn't say DR, I said Regeneration. Any kind of damage which isn't Good or Chaotic is turned subdual. Searing Spell and any other spell that isn't Consecrated or whatever is turned nonlethal, and probably ignored if you've got that going.

It's better than that. The text specifically states Good and Chaotic weapons deal normal damage. Consecrate Spell, which I would consider more dangerous to be vulnerable to than Searing Spell, can't do anything to bypass your regeneration. Maybe if you consecrated a spell that summoned a weapon? Either way that's some pretty darn good regeneration.

[Nettlekid]

It's better than that. The text specifically states Good and Chaotic weapons deal normal damage. Consecrate Spell, which I would consider more dangerous to be vulnerable to than Searing Spell, can't do anything to bypass your regeneration. Maybe if you consecrated a spell that summoned a weapon? Either way that's some pretty darn good regeneration.

My word, I'd chalk that up to closed-mindedness and forgetting that spells can be aligned, but yeah, that's what it says. Presumably weaponlike spells like rays still count as weapons, but still.

Arguably, because it says "good and chaotic" as opposed to "good or chaotic," something would have to be BOTH in order to beat your Regeneration.