[PF] Measured Responce

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Is the feat worths its weight?
Alright so I know if you are rolling 2d6 your average roll is 7 (Not sure how but everywhere I read keeps saying that.) So for something like the Brawler, Monk, Warpriest, etc that have increased scaling in their weapon is this feat worth taking?

For example say I am rolling that 2d6 I can get a max of 12 or a minimum of 2 so taking the 7 is a lot more comfortable and means I am going to be potentially dealing more damage on the long haul but is it worth the lose of losing that 8-12 potential.

[Yanisa]

So for the cost of a feat you deal... average damage... But over a long period you already deal average damage! :smallconfused::smalltongue:
This feat isn't going to allow you to deal more or less damage in any long run, it deals the exact same amount of damage. In fact it will cost you damage if your average is tends to be a fraction. Take 3d6, an average of 10.5 damage. Which means in combat 2 hits deal on average 21 damage. The feat only deals 20 damage. Not that 1 damage matters, but in a long run it will cost you damage. Also there will be that one day that you hit an enemy to 0 hit points and on his next term he kills you. Then you wish you would have done one more damage.

Still if you have cursed die, are an unlucky gambler, or really want to be sure you don't roll snake yes, the feat might be worth a spot, there is something to say for consistency. But it what it offers is more a personal preference then a mechanical benefit.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Ok I mean it like this.
Say you favor two Kukri fighting. 1d4 damage
But as a Warpriest you deal 1d6 instead. Now with Measured Responce you will be rolling 3 damage. So When your original chance was 1-4 rolling a 3 is pretty good.

[Andreaz]

Not even that, really. Most often you deal so much bonus damage the dice stop mattering.


But even before bothering with how insignificant the potential bonus or penalty is, consider what Yanisa said: You're paying a feat to do what you'd do without it anyway.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

True but it also gives you assurances of your damage output. Yes static increases like Str, Magic Items, and so forth give you more damage that outpace your dice. It is nice to know your are assured a specific number especially if you are working with someone who is perhaps new and simple math is easier then trying to explain that just because you COULD have rolled a 6 doesnt mean you get to count it as a 6 when you call damage (I had a newbie do this, granted they where 10)

But like I said with some manipulated could it work better, since static damage is always nicer when you remove it from the hands of fate.

[Andreaz]

True but it also gives you assurances of your damage output. Yes static increases like Str, Magic Items, and so forth give you more damage that outpace your dice. It is nice to know your are assured a specific number especially if you are working with someone who is perhaps new and simple math is easier then trying to explain that just because you COULD have rolled a 6 doesnt mean you get to count it as a 6 when you call damage (I had a newbie do this, granted they where 10)

But like I said with some manipulated could it work better, since static damage is always nicer when you remove it from the hands of fate.

That assurance is far from helpful here.
Presume you're a str-based combatant. You use a greatsword for 2d6 damage, average 7. You have str 16 and a +2 str item, for a +4 str modifier.

So you hit for 2d6+6, 8-18. 38% variation up and down from 13.
Now you power attack. We're still at early levels here since I'm using a mundane GS, so it's just a +1 for +3 damage.
So you hit for 2d6+9, 11-21. 31% variation up and down from 16.

Again, always remember that over time there's no difference between using this feat and not using it. Even in as few as a half dozen swings you're already averaging hard.


Now let's level up some! Suppose you're now an amazing level 8 warrior! Your str boost is now +4, your str is now 18 and your weapon is +2, a +6 str modifier and +2 weapon.
So you hit for 2d6+11, 13-23. 27% variation up and down from 18.
But hey, you still have that power attack. Let's see what happens :D
You hit for 2d6+20, 22-32. 18% variation up and down from 27.


Still not enough? Your friendly neighborhood wizard made you Large!!! Now you get another +2 str and +1d6 damage from size.
3d6+12, 15-30. 36% variation up and down from 22.
PA: 3d6+21, 24-42. 35% variation up and down from 31.

But hey, sometimes you get those awesome Flaming enchants.
4d6+12, 16-36. 38% variation up and down from 26.
PA: 4d6+21, 25-45. 29% variation up and down from 35.

http://anydice.com/program/4506
Notice how most often going by the average is only better than rolling the dice at about 40% of the cases, instead of being a 50/50 spread (it ties at the limit towards infinity)


And this is using one of the best weapons in the game, as far as Dice are concerned. Other weapons get even less from dice. This feat is worse than useless, it makes you weaker.

Also, notice how everything I said so far ignores the fact that rolling more dice = the average result is more likely to happen. The average result is always the most likely to happen when you roll more than 1 die.

[grarrrg]

It's generally a waste of a feat, as it almost always does nothing in the long run.

As pointed out:
If you're rolling an even number of dice with your weapons, then you'll break even.
If you're rolling an odd number of dice, then you'll be losing .5 damage with every swing.
So the general trend is WORSE damage over time, if anything.

There are 2 situations where I can see it being useful.

1. Monster has DR that is higher than your Minimum damage, but lower than your Average damage. Feat would allow you to consistently deal _some_ damage.
But given that you're pinging away a point or two at a time it doesn't gain you much.

2. Dragon's Breath (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/alchemical-cartridges/dragon-s-breath-cartridge) bullets. The feat is useful here because of a special downside to the ammunition: "If you roll a 1 with either of the damage dice, the firearm misfires." Measured Response means you don't roll damage, so you cannot possibly roll a 1 and Misfire.


As for the idea that it's "easier for beginners" to always do average damage, then just make that a Houserule. Don't make them waste a feat on it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

At first I thought it could have been a feat designed for DM to speed up the game. but considering the pre-requisites it isn't really feasible for most campaigns.

[grarrrg]

At first I thought it could have been a feat designed for DM to speed up the game. but considering the pre-requisites it isn't really feasible for most campaigns.

My favorite part about the Pre-req's is how you need to worship a LN deity (Abadar). Which makes sense, given that a "measured" response feat ties nicely into Lawful behavior, and Abadar-fluff.
Then the pfsrd, due to copyright reasons, 'changed' the requirements and lists them as "worship a _good_ deity".

[Dusk Eclipse]

Because saying "must worship a Lawful deity" was sooo difficult

[maniacalmojo]

If you made it so you did an average few damage higher it would be worth a feat.

Say the 2d6 you were suggesting has a range of 2-12 with 7 being average. Make the feat make it so on average you do 9 damage. and change the value depending on the dice something like "Half the sum of the die amounts and add x damage per die rolled. So for the cost of a feat you will steadily do more damage then you would normally on average.

[Spore]

Is the feat worths its weight?


No. It's terrible for low Str characters because it negates the chance to actually overcome some sort of static DR the monster might have. Usually your attacks are nullified anyway or you get the lucky roll to overcome it. For high strength characters and chargers the boni outweigh the actual damage roll.

This feat doesn't fit into PF/D&D combat and is worth NOTHING. It would make a great trait for all I care.


If you made it so you did an average few damage higher it would be worth a feat.

Say the 2d6 you were suggesting has a range of 2-12 with 7 being average. Make the feat make it so on average you do 9 damage. and change the value depending on the dice something like "Half the sum of the die amounts and add x damage per die rolled. So for the cost of a feat you will steadily do more damage then you would normally on average.

You really want another feat to do what Weapon Specialization does and kick the Fighter further while it's still down and bleeding?

[Sith_Happens]

I think panel four of OotS #121 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html) answers this question pretty definitively.