Best dips?

[Infernally Clay]

Three levels of College of Valour Bard and a decent Charisma modifier gets you half your proficiency bonus on "untrained" skills, double your proficiency bonus on two "trained" skills of your choice, a bunch of equipment proficiencies and Bardic/Combat Inspiration (which is just crazy awesome). It's also considered a full spellcasting class as far as multiclass spell slots are concerned, so that's awesome in and of itself. Quite a few people already suggest a two level dip in Fighter, as well, so you can grab Action Surge. Yet if you went one level further and grabbed the Battlemaster archetype, you gain a handful of pretty awesome manoeuvres and superiority die to use them with. In fact, I'm almost tempted to see how a Rogue 14/Fighter 3/Bard 3 might turn out. Reliable Talent combined with the Bard's Expertise would get you a guaranteed minimum result of 22-27 on two skills of your choice, enough to beat the hard or very hard difficulty class automatically (depending on the ability modifiers of the skills chosen of course).

So what do you think are the best dips so far?

[Giant2005]

Warlock 2 is a good dip for Eldritch Blast, two invocations and access to some of the best low level spells in the game (Hex, Hellish Rebuke) and with another casting class boosting your spell slots, you can cast them more often than a full Warlock. With only 2 Warlock levels and a bunch of levels in other casting classes, you are arguably better at being a Warlock than a level 20 Warlock.

Another good dip for casters is Wizard 1. Due to their ability to scribe scrolls, any caster class can scribe and memorize Arcane Magic. That single level could have your Cleric casting things like Wish or other high level Arcane exclusives.

Rogue 3 makes a good dip for the auto crit feature of the Assassin class. A Half-Orc Barbarian would be doing some massive damage on crits and is guaranteed to land them (Even more if they take some Druid levels and your GM allows Flame Blade to be used as a weapon).

Barbarian 1 obviously makes a good dip to any Dex based fighters (who will probably have a high con too).

[Demonic Spoon]

Warlock 2 is a good dip for Eldritch Blast, two invocations and access to some of the best low level spells in the game (Hex, Hellish Rebuke) and with another casting class boosting your spell slots, you can cast them more often than a full Warlock. With only 2 Warlock levels and a bunch of levels in other casting classes, you are arguably better at being a Warlock than a level 20 Warlock.


I don't believe warlock spell slots stack with other casters' spell slots.

[hymer]

I don't believe warlock spell slots stack with other casters' spell slots.

You believe correctly. :smallsmile: Warlocks are not mentioned among the classes that add to multiclass spell slots.

[Giant2005]

I don't believe warlock spell slots stack with other casters' spell slots.

No they track seperately and intermingle. A 2 Warlock/18 whatever has the spell casting slots of an 18 caster and a 2 Warlock but those spell slots can be used to cast any memorized spells. The other caster slots can be used to cast Warlock spells.

[MinaBee]

Another good dip for casters is Wizard 1. Due to their ability to scribe scrolls, any caster class can scribe and memorize Arcane Magic. That single level could have your Cleric casting things like Wish or other high level Arcane exclusives.

Wait...where does it say in the class features that you can do this? I just looked through the Player's Handbook and I didn't see it.

[Yagyujubei]

No they track seperately and intermingle. A 2 Warlock/18 whatever has the spell casting slots of an 18 caster and a 2 Warlock but those spell slots can be used to cast any memorized spells. The other caster slots can be used to cast Warlock spells.

AND the warlock slots refresh after a short rest instead of a long, so you just put your two bread and butter spells in there and go to town.

[Giant2005]

Wait...where does it say in the class features that you can do this? I just looked through the Player's Handbook and I didn't see it.

Page 114, in the "Your spellbook" sidebar.

[hymer]

Wait...where does it say in the class features that you can do this? I just looked through the Player's Handbook and I didn't see it.

It's the 'Your Spellbook' sidebar (p. 114) under 'Copying a Spell into the Book'. It states you can copy wizard spells into it if you have spell slots of the spell's level.

[Giant2005]

I'm probably pushing the limited of what constitutes a "level dip" but the Paladin is another one of those classes that is arguably better at being a Paladin by multiclassing than it is staying pure.
They have a lot of nice low level smites that increase their damage by spell slot such as Searing Smite and Branding Smite - normally that would cap out as a 5th level spell because that is all Paladins can muster but that is no longer true if they multiclass into another casting class.
Something like Paladin 6/Sorc 14 will have spell slots all the way up to 9th level and a whole lot of smites available that are stronger than the designers probably intended.

[Theodoxus]

I wouldn't dip less than 4 levels - there a few feats that are pretty much must haves for every build - and delaying them (or the attribute adjustment) isn't worth it. To me.

I think if I were promoting a more dip worthy campaign though, I'd pull out the attribute adjustments at 4,8,12,16 & 19 and have them universal, like the proficiency bonus. Then, Fighters, and any potential future class, can add them where appropriate (6 and 14 for Fighter) on the class table.

It does leave some dead levels on the classes, which is off putting, somewhat - but as a modification, it's less important than RAW.

[MustacheFart]

I wouldn't dip less than 4 levels - there a few feats that are pretty much must haves for every build - and delaying them (or the attribute adjustment) isn't worth it. To me.


Well, it depends. let's say you're a way of the shadow monk and you dip 2 levels into Warlock for Devil Sight. That's all you really need out of warlock. Everything else is gravy. It's not a MAD build and assuming you spread your stats out right and pick wood elf, you really don't need the ability boosts. They can all be dumped for feats (well all but maybe like 1). Pushing them off two levels seems small in comparison to what you get.

[rlc]

http://www.fritolay.com/assets/images/blue/ruffles-dip-ultimate-smokehouse-bacon.gif

[MinaBee]

Page 114, in the "Your spellbook" sidebar.


It's the 'Your Spellbook' sidebar (p. 114) under 'Copying a Spell into the Book'. It states you can copy wizard spells into it if you have spell slots of the spell's level.

Thank you both! I was misunderstanding Giant2005's initial post.

[Kaiisaxo]

I'm probably pushing the limited of what constitutes a "level dip" but the Paladin is another one of those classes that is arguably better at being a Paladin by multiclassing than it is staying pure.
They have a lot of nice low level smites that increase their damage by spell slot such as Searing Smite and Branding Smite - normally that would cap out as a 5th level spell because that is all Paladins can muster but that is no longer true if they multiclass into another casting class.
Something like Paladin 6/Sorc 14 will have spell slots all the way up to 9th level and a whole lot of smites available that are stronger than the designers probably intended.


Sorcerer x/ warlock 3 is way better at being a sorcerer than a pure sorcerer, combining font of magic with warlock casting gives you the equivalent of the sorcerer capstone, a bunch of extra spells known and cantrips, leather armor and simple weapons plus the ability to summon any kind of weapon.

sorcerer x/ bard 3 is similar but you gain access to ritual magic, a bunch of extra skills, and a wider spell selection -including the game changing silence-.

[Vhaluus]

1 cleric/6 bard/3 warlock/4 wizard/6 sorc?

the cleric splash RAW I believe gives you access to every cleric spell as long as you have a spell slot of that level.

Bard gives you what has been mentioned in this thread + either an extra attack or the ability to steal 2 spells you can't cast (of which there aren't many lol).

Warlock gives you the slots and access to even more spells you couldn't access via pact of tome rituals.

Wizard gives you the ability to scribe spells (aim for the ones that don't use a caster ability since you're probably cha based with this build, save the ones that need caster ability for bard and sorc levels)

sorc gives you sorcery points + elemental affinity

if you need an extra feat drop 2 levels of either sorc or bard and put it into the other. Do not however increase warlock levels or you lose access to 9th level spells.

[Warskull]

Another good dip for casters is Wizard 1. Due to their ability to scribe scrolls, any caster class can scribe and memorize Arcane Magic. That single level could have your Cleric casting things like Wish or other high level Arcane exclusives.

This isn't actually true. Check the multiclass rules.


You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.

It even goes on to use Ranger 4/Wizard 3 as an example. The Wizard can scribe and prepare up to 2nd level spells. You can use your higher level slots by upcasting lower level spells.

However, I consider the reverse dip to actually be quite good. A Wizard/Sorcerer who dips a single level into Cleric or Druid gains access to Cure Wounds, allowing them to act as a back-up healer in a snap. Cure Wounds is a level 1 spell with fairly good growth at higher levels of casting.

[Giant2005]

This isn't actually true. Check the multiclass rules.



It even goes on to use Ranger 4/Wizard 3 as an example. The Wizard can scribe and prepare up to 2nd level spells. You can use your higher level slots by upcasting lower level spells.

Keep reading that same example you just quoted and you will learn that they can cast spells of any slot that they know. The Wizard has the ability to know spells of any level regardless of how many Wizard levels are taken, he also has the ability to memorize spells of any level. It works fine.

[pwykersotz]

Keep reading that same example you just quoted and you will learn that they can cast spells of any slot that they know. The Wizard has the ability to know spells of any level regardless of how many Wizard levels are taken, he also has the ability to memorize spells of any level. It works fine.

Only if you ignore the first paragraph. You're trying to follow a chain of logic that's laid out in 'natural language' over multiple sections of text and then drawing a wildly inaccurate conclusion from one of those paragraphs failing to have a modifier.

That first paragraph inhibits your trick quite nicely. It is specific and straightforward. A Wizard cannot 'know' spells that aren't available from his straight Wizard classes alone. The rules about Copying a Spell into the Book on page 114 doesn't allow you to break this.

[Giant2005]

Only if you ignore the first paragraph. You're trying to follow a chain of logic that's laid out in 'natural language' over multiple sections of text and then drawing a wildly inaccurate conclusion from one of those paragraphs failing to have a modifier.

That first paragraph inhibits your trick quite nicely. It is specific and straightforward. A Wizard cannot 'know' spells that aren't available from his straight Wizard classes alone. The rules about Copying a Spell into the Book on page 114 doesn't allow you to break this.

I don't understand where you are coming from?
Yes you determine what spells you know and can prepare individually.
As per the Wizard's special ability, they can scribe any spells which they have spell slots for. As a high level caster, the Wizard has spell slots all the way to 9th.
As for preparing spells, the wizard can prepare spells equal to his Wizard level + Int mod, up to any level as long as he has spell slots of that level. As a high level caster, the Wizard has spell slots all the way to 9th.
It works fine.

[hawklost]

I don't understand where you are coming from?
Yes you determine what spells you know and can prepare individually.
As per the Wizard's special ability, they can scribe any spells which they have spell slots for. As a high level caster, the Wizard has spell slots all the way to 9th.
As for preparing spells, the wizard can prepare spells equal to his Wizard level + Int mod, up to any level as long as he has spell slots of that level. As a high level caster, the Wizard has spell slots all the way to 9th.
It works fine.

By your logic, a Bard 5, Wizard 5, Druid 5, Sorcerer 5 could have access to each of the 4 groups 9th level spells as long as they took the last class level at 17th/18th/19th/20th levels. Since the statement in all preparing says "The spells must be a level at which you have spell slots".

That is technically correct by the wording but obviously not the intent of the designers.

EDIT: Heck, by the wording, Druid 1, Cleric 1 and 18 of any other combination of full spell caster classes would give you the ability to prepare each day 1+Wis of both Druid and Cleric spells of any level. (Yea, not intended definitely)

[Vhaluus]

By your logic, a Bard 5, Wizard 5, Druid 5, Sorcerer 5 could have access to each of the 4 groups 9th level spells as long as they took the last class level at 17th/18th/19th/20th levels. Since the statement in all preparing says "The spells must be a level at which you have spell slots".

That is technically correct by the wording but obviously not the intent of the designers.

EDIT: Heck, by the wording, Druid 1, Cleric 1 and 18 of any other combination of full spell caster classes would give you the ability to prepare each day 1+Wis of both Druid and Cleric spells of any level. (Yea, not intended definitely)

And that is the difference between RAW (rules as written) and RAI (rules as intended)

[Warskull]

Keep reading that same example you just quoted and you will learn that they can cast spells of any slot that they know. The Wizard has the ability to know spells of any level regardless of how many Wizard levels are taken, he also has the ability to memorize spells of any level. It works fine.

You are just willfully ignoring the rules at this point. There is no room for interpretation here. They explicitly say you take each class as a single class for the purpose of determining what spells you can know. They then provide an example clearly illustrating the concept.


For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots. However, you don’t know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know—and
potentially enhance their effects.


If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare.

The can cast using any slot, but that doesn't mean they know higher level spells. They have to cast their lower level spells at a higher level.

Using your 19 Cleric/1 Wizard, you only can know and prepare 1st level wizard spells. So you don't get Wish, Teleport, or Meteor Shower. However, you can cast burning hands at 9th level dealing 11d6 damage.


And that is the difference between RAW (rules as written) and RAI (rules as intended)

In this case, RAW and RAI both match. Just read page 164, the "spells known and prepared" and "spell slots" sections leave nothing to question. While the wording in classes themselves leaves a bit to be desired, the multiclass rules are absolutely explicit. You look up what the highest level spell a 19 cleric can cast is, the is the highest level spell you can know and prepare. You look up the highest level spell a 1 Druid can cast, that is the highest level druid spell you can know and prepare. You can then cast that 1st level Druid spell at 9th level using the "at-higher level" rules, but you cannot cast druid spells that are labeled as 9th level.

Now these 1 level caster dips are still not bad. The scaling for the "at-higher level" casts is often pretty good.