versus Boccob

[nolongerchaos]

I understand that the general consensus among the more competent optimizers is that the deities of D&D aren't that difficult to bring low, and seeing many of your builds, I can understand how you have developed such opinions. I am curious however about the relative defeat-ability of Boccob. What is the least it would take to bring down the Archmage of the Deities? (Assume either 1v1 [or at most 3v1] and psionic/magic transparency)

[Shining Wrath]

If it can be statted it can be killed - but what are Boccob's stats?

I will say that WoTC doesn't do very high-cheese builds, and if you let the Forum take a whack at spec'ing Boccob you might get pretty close to Mary Sue.

[Seppo87]

In 20 levels, without epic casting, without infinite/arbitrarily high *things* (pun-pun, DCS, wishes...) basically without breaking the game?

Now THIS is a challenge I'd like to see won.

[nolongerchaos]

Boccob is statted in Deities and Demigods. And yes, for the sake of simplicity we'll assume no Epic Spells, firstly because they tend to warp even the rules, and secondly, well, Boccob.

[Emperor Tippy]

Deities suck when they are played straight from the book, they are phenomenally better if you take their book abilities and assume some intelligent use of them.

Take any Deity with the Alter Reality divine ability. That gives them every single spell in the entire game on themselves permanently if they want it there.

Now try and come up with ways to kill said deity.

[Red Fel]

I understand that the general consensus among the more competent optimizers is that the deities of D&D aren't that difficult to bring low, and seeing many of your builds, I can understand how you have developed such opinions. I am curious however about the relative defeat-ability of Boccob. What is the least it would take to bring down the Archmage of the Deities? (Assume either 1v1 [or at most 3v1] and psionic/magic transparency)

Actually, I don't think it's fair to say there's a general consensus.

There is a consensus that pretty much everything statted can be killed. This is especially true for things that were statted in Deities and Demigods, who are woefully unoptimized by Playground standards.

Where there is some debate, however, is whether gods will let you kill them. There is a vocal portion of the Playground - of which I am one - which contends that, basically, if you pose a genuine threat to a deity, they will seek to destroy you before you can face them, without resorting to a fair fight on a featureless plane; barring that, they will simply elude you until mortality claims you.

In particular, Boccob - basically representing most, if not all, of arcane magic - would be the ultimate over-prepared God Wizard (literally and figuratively), and would have cheese to put on your cheese. He knows every spell that will ever exist, ever has existed, and several that must never exist, and he will use them. Imagine anything a Wizard could do to prepare for an encounter. Now consider that Boccob can do all of that, and more, because he is literally the god of doing precisely that. If he genuinely thought you posed a threat, he'd simply snuff you out before you came knocking.

Admittedly, this is the opinion of only a portion of the Playground; I don't think it's fair to say that there is consensus on this point. In my own opinion, though, Boccob is probably the god you simply won't fight. He will play it smart, he will be prepared, he will have a one-up over anything you can pull. The fact is, people have asked this before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246676-Challenge-taking-down-Boccob). The result is the same. This is the one guy with whom you don't mess.

[Zanos]

Boccob can't be killed by a mortal if he's played to his intelligence score. A full wizard is already a God in many senses of the term, and you're talking about the god of people who are already physical gods.

[Shining Wrath]

The only way to defeat Boccob post Alter Reality is to trick him into repeatedly casting Feeblemind on himself until it finally works.

How to do that I leave as an exercise for the student :smallsmile:

[Extra Anchovies]

Well...


SR 69...

...Int 50...

...Divine Immunities: Ability damage, ability drain, acid, cold, death effects, disease, disintegration, electricity, energy drain, mind- affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation, imprisonment, banishment...

...Boccob senses all magic use (spellcasting, item use, spell-like ability use, or magic item creation) seventeen weeks before it happens and retains the sensation for seventeen weeks after the event occurs...

...Create Magic Items: As the deity of magic, Boccob can create any kind of magic item...

He's also got Alter Reality, plus all of his wizard spells are automatically stilled, silenced, and quickened.

Nah. I don't really think so.

[Shining Wrath]

From Wikipedia:


Boccob is the god of magic, arcane knowledge, balance, and foresight. He is known as the Uncaring, the Lord of All Magic, and the Archmage of the Deities. All times and places are open to him, and he has visited many alternate realities and planes unknown to the wisest of sages, places even the Elder Evils avoid. His symbol is an eye in a pentagon; usually this is worn as an amulet. Boccob was first detailed for the Dungeons & Dragons game in "The Deities and Demigods of the World of Greyhawk" by Gary Gygax in Dragon #70 (1983).[8] Boccob is usually portrayed as a middle aged man with white hair who wears purple robes decorated with golden runes. He is described as carrying the very first staff of the magi with him at all times. In addition, he knows every spell ever created and can travel to any time and dimension. He is the possessor of the only magical library that contains a copy of every potion, spell, and magic item in existence.

I think the two bolded portions pretty much settle this. You will not surprise the God of foresight, by definition; and whatever you have, he has a perfect counter to it sitting on a shelf. He knows what you're about to do, and has perfectly prepared to counter it - or, if he can't counter it, has hidden himself from you perfectly in a time or dimension you can't reach.

EDIT:

Oh, BTW, since he can travel to any time or dimension, he can kill your parents before you are born, and also those of all your traveling companions, plus every mortal who ever knew you existed, and use Alter Reality to fix it up so no one notices that the fabric of reality has been rewoven.

[Inevitability]

Maybe, just maybe, some planar shepherd/wizard build would be able to travel to the far realms without suffering ill effects (or does Boccob's sphere of influence extend to even that place?) camp there for a few months (Rope Trick is your friend, young padawan) and then Teleport Through Time and erase Boccob from existence back when he wasn't a god yet.

Maybe it'll work.

[VonDragon]

most magic is probably out due to portfolio sense alerting him to its use

[1pwny]

Maybe, just maybe, some planar shepherd/wizard build would be able to travel to the far realms without suffering ill effects (or does Boccob's sphere of influence extend to even that place?) camp there for a few months (Rope Trick is your friend, young padawan) and then Teleport Through Time and erase Boccob from existence back when he wasn't a god yet.

Maybe it'll work.
Not really. Boccob will know what you're doing 17 weeks before you do it! As soon as he sees you doing anything suspicious, he'll teleport to your parents and turn them into newts.

[Mr Adventurer]

No he won't, because he's Boccob the Uncaring.

[StreamOfTheSky]

My friends and I have always agreed: If we ever were to do a deicide game, Boccob would be the LAST god we'd go after. Not just for being an uber-high level wizard. Also because of his "uncaring" status. He's one of the only gods that just doesn't get involved in others' business. If you slaughtered just about any other god, he's the one you can count on not to join the fight against you. And if you did go after him, it'd freak out all the other gods that someone would go after the most neutral god in the pantheon presumably for no reason, and make it even *more* likely to draw aggro from a ton of other deities, anxious that they'll be next. While as if you try to off, say...Vecna (also conveniently one of the lowest level "core deities")... no one likes that dude and there's a lot of very obvious reasons someone would want to slay him, so attempting to kill him off would attract the least notice.

*shrug*

[Shining Wrath]

My friends and I have always agreed: If we ever were to do a deicide game, Boccob would be the LAST god we'd go after. Not just for being an uber-high level wizard. Also because of his "uncaring" status. He's one of the only gods that just doesn't get involved in others' business. If you slaughtered just about any other god, he's the one you can count on not to join the fight against you. And if you did go after him, it'd freak out all the other gods that someone would go after the most neutral god in the pantheon presumably for no reason, and make it even *more* likely to draw aggro from a ton of other deities, anxious that they'll be next. While as if you try to off, say...Vecna (also conveniently one of the lowest level "core deities")... no one likes that dude and there's a lot of very obvious reasons someone would want to slay him, so attempting to kill him off would attract the least notice.

*shrug*

I'd think that trying to off Obad-Hai might get people even more upset than taking out Boccob, as the Prime Material plane might suddenly stop functioning in a variety of ways. All the natural stuff stops - would you turn off gravity?

[StreamOfTheSky]

True. Obad-Hai is another one to "save till later" on your pantheon killing spree. No doubt. Not to mention he's probably the most common druid god. You'll piss some clerics off no matter who you go after, but it's really dumb to draw the ire of other tier 1's if you don't need to.

[Phelix-Mu]

If you can't get around whatever "Divinely Morphic" means (in regards to the deity's planar domain), then it's probably not even worth trying. As far as I can tell, this is a big "I win" button for the god or goddess.

[Brookshw]

If you can't get around whatever "Divinely Morphic" means (in regards to the deity's planar domain), then it's probably not even worth trying. As far as I can tell, this is a big "I win" button for the god or goddess.

well, before you even get there you need to figure out the numerous private demiplanes disconnected from normal time filled with resetting wish spell clocks churning out 100k solars a round times arbitrarily high number of traps/planes where their rounds are arbitrarily equal to one of ours. Oh yeah, plus all the aleax ice assassin shenanigans and the gods can make you, then sick you on yourself en mass waves coupled with all the same shenanigans you can pull. Then there are the various astral projection/astral pool body outside of body hide life avatars and, ya know, I think I'll stop here. Don't even get me started on why time abuse nonsense is doomed except for some corner cases.

What, you thought this would be easy?

[Emperor Tippy]

If you can't get around whatever "Divinely Morphic" means (in regards to the deity's planar domain), then it's probably not even worth trying. As far as I can tell, this is a big "I win" button for the god or goddess.

Nah, that is nothing all that special for high level D&D. Genesis lets non deities do the same thing.

First you have Alter Reality. Any deity with it and played with a modicum of honesty has every single spell (from any spell list) that is potentially beneficial on himself permanently and in a manner that can't be suppressed or dispelled outside of a single part of the outlands (close to Sigil's infinite spire).

Then you have Portfolio Sense. Any intermediate+ deity knows about anything involving its portfolio (which includes attacks on deities with those portfolios) six or more weeks before the attack occurs.

After that the rest of their abilities are comparable to what you would expect in any ECL 20+ fight.

[vhfforever]

I honestly cannot remember if the Vecna-blooded Template is of any use here, shielding the characters movements from his Portfolio Sense until the time is right to act.

[Sith_Happens]

Then you have Portfolio Sense. Any intermediate+ deity knows about anything involving its portfolio (which includes attacks on deities with those portfolios) six or more weeks before the attack occurs.

Boccob, specifically, has the single hardest Portfolio Sense possible for someone looking to harm him to overcome. If your plan involves a single spell, SLA, or magic item, it's as good as shot.

[Inevitability]

Not really. Boccob will know what you're doing 17 weeks before you do it! As soon as he sees you doing anything suspicious, he'll teleport to your parents and turn them into newts.

Depends. Plane Shift ought to be an often used spell, and if Boccob investigated each single instance of the spell, he wouldn't be Boccob the Uncaring, but Boccob the overly-paranoid. Also, as time in the Far Realms is real badly screwed up, he might not even have enough time to react.

Alternatively, does his Portfolio Sense specify that it detects spell-like abilities, if so, you can use Supernatural Spell to just PS to the Far Realms as a (Su)? That'd make the only spell in your plan that is cast within Boccob's area of influence undetectable by him.

[Seppo87]

Does Boccob's portfolio extend to psionic powers?

Because if it doesn't, a STP Erudite (or, better, a normal psion who learned converted spells from a STP Erudite) could do the trick.
We're assuming a 3 people party so I'd choose
-King of Smack
-god/utility focused psion with converted spells
-nova focused psion with converted spells

[S_Grey]

How to do that I leave as an exercise for the student :smallsmile:

What is the easiest way to get a gun away from a grammaton cleric? You ask him for it.

[Sir Garanok]

Being intelligent as he is he would have predicted everything that you might think of 17 ages before you where born.

As it is clearly said he is immortal,so he can't be killed but he can be defeated.

But taking the scenario that some greater being or master minded(even for divine standards) plot threw gods and mortals in an arena...


Gaining the initiative is a nice start so you want a char with >12 initiative and a die result of 20 by some magical means(as greater gods always roll 20).

then giving the other 2 of the party the ability to act at your initiative,maybe trap him in an antimagic field somehow and i dont know what...

I'd love to see how it could be done

[Inevitability]

Does Boccob's portfolio extend to psionic powers?

I guess Magic-psionic transparency could be used to say it does.

[Red Fel]

I guess Magic-psionic transparency could be used to say it does.

This. The transparency basically says that Psionics constitutes another form of Magic, and since Boccob senses all magic use 17 weeks before it happens, you're not getting under his radar by rubbing some crystals.

[Seppo87]

I guess Magic-psionic transparency could be used to say it does.
This is an optional rule, despite its popularity iirc the default is no transparency

[Werephilosopher]

This is an optional rule, despite its popularity iirc the default is no transparency

Actually...


The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency.

[Seppo87]

Then the psions are doomed.

Okay.

-What's Boccob's Caster Level again? 40?

-How is anyone supposed to ever meet him? Are there nonmagical ways to just, you know, knock at his door?

-Does he sense spell-like abilities in advance as well? If he doesn't this could allow for some exploits

[Inevitability]

I am pretty sure Su abilities are not sensed by him. A Dweomerkeeper with enough cheese could probably beat Boccob without the latter even getting a turn.

[StoneCipher]

I'd think that trying to off Obad-Hai might get people even more upset than taking out Boccob, as the Prime Material plane might suddenly stop functioning in a variety of ways. All the natural stuff stops - would you turn off gravity?


True. Obad-Hai is another one to "save till later" on your pantheon killing spree. No doubt. Not to mention he's probably the most common druid god. You'll piss some clerics off no matter who you go after, but it's really dumb to draw the ire of other tier 1's if you don't need to.

It is said that Nerull kills Obad-Hai every winter and Obad-Hai regenerates in the spring. That being said, he must have one hell of a regeneration effect.

[Extra Anchovies]

It is said that Nerull kills Obad-Hai every winter and Obad-Hai regenerates in the spring. That being said, he must have one hell of a regeneration effect.

Yeah, even being slain by the god of death only deals him nonlethal damage. :smallbiggrin:

[Shining Wrath]

Boccob, specifically, has the single hardest Portfolio Sense possible for someone looking to harm him to overcome. If your plan involves a single spell, SLA, or magic item, it's as good as shot.

And he's the god of foresight ... which I think means even then, he knows.

[StoneCipher]

Yeah even if he doesn't sense any remote amount of spellcasting, it's entirely feasible to think that he knows what you're up to. Unless you live a life of complete solitude and obscurity and gain XP through some kind of weirdness where you encounter only non-intelligent beings, word will likely get out somehow.

People are talking. People are watching. People are listening. Boccob is knowing.

[Shining Wrath]

Yeah even if he doesn't sense any remote amount of spellcasting, it's entirely feasible to think that he knows what you're up to. Unless you live a life of complete solitude and obscurity and gain XP through some kind of weirdness where you encounter only non-intelligent beings, word will likely get out somehow.

People are talking. People are watching. People are listening. Boccob is knowing.

There's also the question of Boccob's travel habits, which are extensive. Are you going to pick a place and just wait and hope he shows? A guy who makes a habit of going to the weirdest places in the multiverse, you're just going to plop down somewhere and expect him to appear within finite time?

Otherwise, you're (1) using divination to locate him and (2) using some sort of gate-ish thing to get there; OR (3) waiting a possibly very long but not quite infinite time, in which case you're extending your life by some sort of artificial means. And he knows.

UNLESS

You're a Warforged and hence naturally immortal. A Warforged Warblade has no SU abilities or SLA; he can just continue to adventure, gaining ranks and skills and levels until the day comes where he's in the right place at the right time, and he (having reached level N, where N is very large) beats Boccob using only Warblade maneuvers.

We can debate how high N has to be, but that's how you defeat Boccob. Warforged immortality and Iron Heart Surge to remove Boccob's ability to cast spells :smallbiggrin:

[StoneCipher]

There's also the question of Boccob's travel habits, which are extensive. Are you going to pick a place and just wait and hope he shows? A guy who makes a habit of going to the weirdest places in the multiverse, you're just going to plop down somewhere and expect him to appear within finite time?

Otherwise, you're (1) using divination to locate him and (2) using some sort of gate-ish thing to get there; OR (3) waiting a possibly very long but not quite infinite time, in which case you're extending your life by some sort of artificial means. And he knows.

UNLESS

You're a Warforged and hence naturally immortal. A Warforged Warblade has no SU abilities or SLA; he can just continue to adventure, gaining ranks and skills and levels until the day comes where he's in the right place at the right time, and he (having reached level N, where N is very large) beats Boccob using only Warblade maneuvers.


We can debate how high N has to be, but that's how you defeat Boccob. Warforged immortality and Iron Heart Surge to remove Boccob's ability to cast spells :smallbiggrin:

Until Boccob makes it rain rust monsters.

[Phelix-Mu]

Although, since warforged are probably the biggest and most successful exercise in creating sentient constructs with magic in the history of forever, Boccob might just keep track of all of them for the lulz. Certainly, their very existence is something he would intimately familiar with, and he might even be aware of the point in time that each is created .

[StoneCipher]

Hell, given that, he might let the warforged champion fight him just to see what he can do. But Boccob at that point will probably have a literal contingency escape plan.

[Malroth]

Assume for the sake of Plot that Bocomb's loyalty is not to himself but to his Portfolio and thus to ensure that the best mage is the god of Magic as decided by magical combat. Thus he will not take preemptive action when his portfolio sense warns him of an incoming attack and instead simply researches his opponent to be prepared when the attack does come. Is beating a SR62 archmage/diety with every buff spell on him permanently possible if the god decides to fight "fairly" ?

[Phelix-Mu]

The best way to kill him is probably some plot-level device where he would consider it better that he die than live. This might not be as hard as it sounds, but it could still be well beyond what can be accomplished without some considerable DM fiat.

For instance, if Boccob came to believe that only his death could prevent the dissolution of the Pact Primeval, he would probably choose to die, in the interest of the cosmos/magic/whatever having some kind of a future. It would have to be a scientific, logical, and non-emotional conclusion, though, due to his "uncaring" nature. But he isn't evilly selfish or anything, so it should be possible to arrange such an eventuality.

As close to impossible without actually being impossible, though.

[Inevitability]

The best way to kill him is probably some plot-level device where he would consider it better that he die than live. This might not be as hard as it sounds, but it could still be well beyond what can be accomplished without some considerable DM fiat.

For instance, if Boccob came to believe that only his death could prevent the dissolution of the Pact Primeval, he would probably choose to die, in the interest of the cosmos/magic/whatever having some kind of a future. It would have to be a scientific, logical, and non-emotional conclusion, though, due to his "uncaring" nature. But he isn't evilly selfish or anything, so it should be possible to arrange such an eventuality.

As close to impossible without actually being impossible, though.

Close to impossible?

Clearly you've never heard of the magic of bluff. Be a human druid with Magical Training, dip cleric for the magic domain and go dweomerkeeper. Next, proceed with the default Aspect of the Wolf/Awaken shenanigans, except all supernaturallized. You now gain infinite charisma which leads to infinite bluff, so you can easily convince Boccob that he has to die.

[AuraTwilight]

Discern Lies.
Detect Thoughts.
Zone of Truth.

[Inevitability]

In that case, I'd resume the 'Teleport Through Time with only Supernatural spells and kill Boccob dead' plan.

[Diovid]

Diplomance him into killing himself?

[Sith_Happens]

Oh, right, another basic requirement: Whatever you plan on doing to him needs to work through an Antimagic Field, because that's one of his at-will SLAs and as a god he has no downside to using it.

[AuraTwilight]

In that case, I'd resume the 'Teleport Through Time with only Supernatural spells and kill Boccob dead' plan.

And if Boccob's divine status is sufficiently old enough you can't go back that far? Or he's casting divination spells every day going "Yo multiverse is anyone going to try and kill me in a way that bypasses my portfolio sense?"

If you're not planning for Boccob to have access to every spell in the game and to use them intelligently, no supernatural ability with protect you.

Because Antimagic Field blocks Supernatural abilities but not Salient ones.


Diplomance him into killing himself?

See above. He saw you coming 24 hours ahead of time minimum.

Boccob is the ultimate wizard in a setting where wizards beat ****ing everybody. If he's played to his proper intelligence levels and no DM fiat plot macguffins intervene, he's pretty much unbeatable by everything short of another god.

[Inevitability]

Remember, we are not talking about Ye Olde Paranoith Wizard who happens to have Boccob's power, we are talking about Boccob himself.

Boccob, who, if I may add, is uncaring. The moment he starts spamming divinations to see if there's a mortal who is thinking about killing him, he's not really that uncaring anymore.

And even if Boccob knows you are casting Teleport Through time, he virtually has no time to react, as he is already prevented from being a deity at that point.

[Killer Angel]

Boccob is the ultimate wizard in a setting where wizards beat ****ing everybody. If he's played to his proper intelligence levels and no DM fiat plot macguffins intervene, he's pretty much unbeatable by everything short of another god.

So, I'd say the first step (and the easiest one) of our hypothetical character, is to become a god itself.

[gooddragon1]

Remember, we are not talking about Ye Olde Paranoith Wizard who happens to have Boccob's power, we are talking about Boccob himself.

Boccob, who, if I may add, is uncaring. The moment he starts spamming divinations to see if there's a mortal who is thinking about killing him, he's not really that uncaring anymore.

And even if Boccob knows you are casting Teleport Through time, he virtually has no time to react, as he is already prevented from being a deity at that point.

I sort of feel like this is the case, but it could be that he's just uncaring in the sense that he doesn't get involved in anything. He might still be looking out for number one though.

However, someone who is exactly like that is Dispater. Somewhere on these boards (I think) was something called The Iron Siege. A poster DM'ed it and it was supposed to be where players of appropriate level and power were tasked with killing Dispater. The only problem I have with that is that Dispater breaks the WBL for his level and that his Challenge Rating does not take into account his precautions. Going back to the DMG and Ad Hoc: An encounter with Orcs using hang gliders is not the same as where they charge in with spears. Applied to Boccob... he is not appropriate for his CR if played optimally. I actually feel that depending on class choices a player is above or below the Effective Level that should be equal to their character level.

[ranagrande]

You could just convince another god to kill him for you. Corellon Larethian, Erythnul, Fharlanghn, Heironeous, Hector, Kurtulmak, Nerull, Olidammara, and Yondalla would each easily win a fight against Boccob.

[Socratov]

You could just convince another god to kill him for you. Corellon Larethian, Erythnul, Fharlanghn, Heironeous, Hector, Kurtulmak, Nerull, Olidammara, and Yondalla would each easily win a fight against Boccob.

Olidaramma wouldn't go much further then pranking. Oli is a prankster, not a killer. Has way too much sense of humour for that. Boccob, probably, doesn't have a sense of humour...

[Extra Anchovies]

Olidaramma wouldn't go much further then pranking. Oli is a prankster, not a killer. Has way too much sense of humour for that. Boccob, probably, doesn't have a sense of humour...

Boccob's likely lack of a sense of humor would just make pranking him all the more of a challenge for Oli. And pranks can be very fatal, at least when there's a god behind them. Just ask Kurtulmak and Garl Glittergold :smallannoyed: :smalltongue:

[pwykersotz]

Remember, we are not talking about Ye Olde Paranoith Wizard who happens to have Boccob's power, we are talking about Boccob himself.

Boccob, who, if I may add, is uncaring. The moment he starts spamming divinations to see if there's a mortal who is thinking about killing him, he's not really that uncaring anymore.

And even if Boccob knows you are casting Teleport Through time, he virtually has no time to react, as he is already prevented from being a deity at that point.

Boccob knows Chronomancy...so that probably won't work. He will have undoubtedly severed his own timeline with the spell Sever Lifeline (AD&D Chronomancer pg 66), meaning killing his past self won't affect him.

[Emperor Tippy]

You could just convince another god to kill him for you. Corellon Larethian, Erythnul, Fharlanghn, Heironeous, Hector, Kurtulmak, Nerull, Olidammara, and Yondalla would each easily win a fight against Boccob.

Your basis for that claim is what exactly?

Boccob is a Divine Rank 17 Greater Deity of Magic and Foresight who has 50 Int and Alter Reality. If he is played remotely competently then very few of the listed deities stand a chance.

Erythnul, Fharlanghn, Heironeous, Hextor, Kurtulmak, and Olidammara all stand no chance at all with the degree that they are spanked being dependent upon the specific deity.

Corellon and Yondalla have some chance but it's not a very good one.

[ranagrande]

It's based on the fact that those deities have the Supreme Initiative salient divine ability which Boccob, despite being a god of foresight, does not possess.

They all have Alter Reality too, and they get to act first, which means they can win.

[Inevitability]

It's based on the fact that those deities have the Supreme Initiative salient divine ability which Boccob, despite being a god of foresight, does not possess.

They all have Alter Reality too, and they get to act first, which means they can win.

*Cough* *Contingency* *Cough*


Boccob knows Chronomancy...so that probably won't work. He will have undoubtedly severed his own timeline with the spell Sever Lifeline (AD&D Chronomancer pg 66), meaning killing his past self won't affect him.

Can we count on AD&D magic in 3.5, though? I doubt it.

[Werephilosopher]

Remember, we are not talking about Ye Olde Paranoith Wizard who happens to have Boccob's power, we are talking about Boccob himself.

Boccob, who, if I may add, is uncaring. The moment he starts spamming divinations to see if there's a mortal who is thinking about killing him, he's not really that uncaring anymore.

I think you're reading too much into that title. It means he doesn't get involved in disputes with other gods, not that he might notice a powerful mage preparing to kill him and just fart around rather than try to prevent it.


And even if Boccob knows you are casting Teleport Through time, he virtually has no time to react, as he is already prevented from being a deity at that point.

Not if he knows 17 weeks before you even cast it. :smalltongue:

[Zale]

Can we count on AD&D magic in 3.5, though? I doubt it.

If anyone would know spells from the previous editions, it would be the God of Magic.

I'm curious as to why Yondalla has a chance, as I must admit my knowledge of halfling deities is nonexistent.

[Inevitability]

Not if he knows 17 weeks before you even cast it. :smalltongue:

Well, then it's good he doesn't because it was a Supernatural Spell, is it? :smalltongue:

[Emperor Tippy]

It's based on the fact that those deities have the Supreme Initiative salient divine ability which Boccob, despite being a god of foresight, does not possess.

They all have Alter Reality too, and they get to act first, which means they can win.

Boccob has Celerity and Greater Celerity along with an absolute inability to be surprised or Flatfooted (thank you Permanent Foresight), Supreme Initiative is meaningless.


If anyone would know spells from the previous editions, it would be the God of Magic.

I'm curious as to why Yondalla has a chance, as I must admit my knowledge of halfling deities is nonexistent.

Higher Divine Rank.

[AuraTwilight]

Well, then it's good he doesn't because it was a Supernatural Spell, is it? :smalltongue:

Boccob has Antimagic Field as an at-will SLA and he can cast spells within it. Played intelligently, he has it constantly surrounding him to cockblock all supernatural shenanigans. Next.

[Emperor Tippy]

Boccob has Antimagic Field as an at-will SLA and he can cast spells within it. Played intelligently, he has it constantly surrounding him to cockblock all supernatural shenanigans. Next.

No, he has permanent selective (himself) AMF thanks to Alter Reality.

He also has little things like Permanent Delay Death.

[Sith_Happens]

No, he has permanent selective (himself) AMF thanks to Alter Reality.

He also has little things like Permanent Delay Death.

The selective part is unnecessary, AMF specifically has no effect on deities.

[Emperor Tippy]

The selective part is unnecessary, AMF specifically has no effect on deities.

He might want to use magic items inside the AMF.

[Sith_Happens]

He might want to use magic items inside the AMF.

Possible, but not likely considering he has Craft Artifact.

Also, Selective Spell doesn't extend to the creature's gear any more or less than the deities clause of AMF does.

[Inevitability]

Boccob has Antimagic Field as an at-will SLA and he can cast spells within it. Played intelligently, he has it constantly surrounding him to cockblock all supernatural shenanigans. Next.

Why would you walk up to him and then cast Teleport Through Time? You can just do it from your private sanctum on the other side of the multiverse.

[AuraTwilight]

Why would you walk up to him and then cast Teleport Through Time? You can just do it from your private sanctum on the other side of the multiverse.

"Someone is going to show up from the future in an attempt to murder me. I'll teleport to where he's going to show up before he gets there and anti-magic the place up. Lol."

[Inevitability]

The point is that Boccob does not know that you are attacking from the future, because he can't detect supernatural spells.

[AuraTwilight]

He still has every divination spell in the game, dude. He might be the Uncaring, but he's not the Unacting. "Is there anything I should concern myself with today? Survival, the fabric of all reality, etcetera"?

And I don't accept the premise that Boccob wouldn't be interested in self-defense, because if he dies that will probably significantly effect magic throughout the multiverse, which is something he does seriously care about, to pretty obsessive levels.

[Inevitability]

As far as I know, there are no divination spells that allow you to see how the past will be altered by time travel in a future where said time travel has not yet taken place, and will never take place as upon learning that the time travel would be your demise you would stop the time travel.

[Erik Vale]

Biggest problem with all these kill plots:
Every god has a certain number of free actions per turn where they can do anything pertaining to their domain.

Free actions can be taken outside of initiative order, so as a out of initiative in turn action, what could he do... There's a spell called Travel through time. He proceeds to cast it as a free action as you arrive but before you can do anything. And then he has his contingencies for when he runs out of his actions if you manage to launch enough attempts at the same [relative to him] time. And it's in character, he can do whatever he's doing elsewhere, and doesn't care to fight.
Or, he doesn't care not enough to kill you for trying to kill him, and since Miracle can be a arcane spell, he has it, he Miracles using himself to kill you, Miracle has no limits, so he agrees. You cease to exist as a free action. Whether or not he could actually kill you is irrelevant, because he's using Miracle to do it.
Edit: And foresight prevents him from being surprised, in addition to his divine senses alerting him in advance, so no surprise round.

Mystra may god of magic, but Boccob is the god of wizards, and wizards do it better. Psions may also do it better, but little do they know they're just another brand of wizard so he still is their god and thus does it better, despite there being a separate god for psionics.

[XmonkTad]

Well, getting something stat-less to do it is the obvious way. On the 300th layer of the Abyss there an artifact held by the God of Epidemics (Lu Yueh) that is the key to the ritual to let Ma Yuan out of the wells of darkness on the 73rd layer of the Abyss. Fluff says he is a killer of gods, so he'll get to Boccob eventually.

As for actually dealing with Boccob yourself, you have to find a way to get him near (within 100 miles) the central spire of outlands and then kill him, he pretty much loses all his power there. Quintessence Bucket Challenge for Chicken-Infested research?

[Inevitability]

Speaking about god-killing abominations... How about Pandorym? We already know that Boccob (or any other god) won't kill people who try to release him (Elder Evils), so he can be put free if we want him to be put free. Then send him at the gods.

[Erik Vale]

Boccob then uses his senses to see if the multiverse will still exist post-release. If yes, he timeskips past the event, if no, he takes the appropriate precautions, or just chooses to never exist past his release... Or actually is preventing his release, or some other god will/does, so it doesn't matter.

[AuraTwilight]

As far as I know, there are no divination spells that allow you to see how the past will be altered by time travel in a future where said time travel has not yet taken place, and will never take place as upon learning that the time travel would be your demise you would stop the time travel.

As long as you plan to go back in time, Past-Boccob will be able to detect it happening with Divination and take appropriate measures. If this stops you from going back in time to kill him, Past-Boccob still wins by virtue of not having to do anything to protect himself.

Your plan's not going to work unless you want to deal with paradox causality gymnastics, and even then there's a Temporal Energy Plane he can access and screw around with.

[1pwny]

There's an opinion that I would like to voice here: you guys are underestimating Boccob. Lets say you invent some way to kill (or get rid of) Boccob without him ever noticing. Sure. You get ready to timeshift him or whatever, and then you realize its already happened to you.

You try to send him to another dimension, when you look up and realize you're already next to the Outland's spire.

You're about to set an invincible, god-killing machine loose to kill him, when you smell its breath on your face, look up, and get eaten by it.

That's my impression of what would happen if you wanted to challenge the god of wizards. :smallsmile:

[Inevitability]

Question: What do we know about Boccob's origins? If he was once not as powerful as now, then travelling through time is a good way to kill him.

[AuraTwilight]

I can't find anything. It's entirely possible he was never NOT a god.