[3.5] Druids, but not druids

[Extra Anchovies]

Whenever I play a druid or consider playing a druid, I always have trouble keeping myself from stealing the spotlight because, druids are just too versatile encounter-solvers. Between my character and the animal companion, I am playing not as one character but as two brown bears, one of which is capable of casting fourth-level spells, as early as seventh level. It's a lot of bookkeeping for me, keeping track of all of that. Not that I don't like the druid; I love their spell list. I'm just not a huge fan of the animal companion or wild shape, because they just open up too many doors for me to know what to do.

I've tried to find other classes that have full casting progressions and use the druid list. The only one I've been able to find is the Spirit Shaman, which I quite like.

1. Can a spirit shaman work well as a party's divine caster? I love the flavor of the class, and getting to change what spells I know each day can be pretty great. The limited spells known can easily be circumvented with Spontaneous Summoner and/or Spontaneous Healer. Any other tips for the class?

2. Are there any other full casting classes that use the druid list and do not have wild shape?

[eggynack]

You could always run a straight druid, lowering your access to bookkeeping requiring thingamajigs. The best trade for the animal companion is probably the first shifter substitution level from races of Eberron, beast spirit, so that cuts down on the number of creatures you have to control some. Wild shape has worse trades, but there are ways to cut down on complexity some.

One of the better ACF's is aspect of the dragon, which is still pretty bad, but instead, I'd advise just not using that many forms. Instead of using wild shape as a combat enabler, which requires heavy tracking, and sometimes form swapping for optimal use, you could just keep up something like desmodu hunting bat form full time, meaning that you're just working off of one extra stat block, which you don't particularly have to pay attention to the combat abilities of. Doing those things should leave you with less bookkeeping overall, and puts you in an optimal place.

[mealin]

If Wild shape makes it too difficult (or too much bookkeeping) for you, why not just trade it in? There's plenty of Alternate Class Features. I like Deadly Hunter from UA (which makes you more of a ranger) but there's bound to be others.

[Urpriest]

All that said, Spirit Shaman is definitely a solid class, especially with some of the Spontaneous X feats to cover gaps.

[Sian]

1. Can a spirit shaman work well as a party's divine caster? I love the flavor of the class, and getting to change what spells I know each day can be pretty great. The limited spells known can easily be circumvented with Spontaneous Summoner and/or Spontaneous Healer. Any other tips for the class?

2. Are there any other full casting classes that use the druid list and do not have wild shape?

Spirit Shaman works quite handy as replacing a Druid, since they can decide on new spells each day from the druid list.

otherwise you could merely play a druid ACF without Wildshape (Deadly Hunter from Unearthed Arcana is quite handy)

[Threadnaught]

What eggynack said, but you could limit yourself in a different way.

Rather than nerfing your character as much as possible by staying Core only. Keep a cap on your power by refusing to use all of your abilities to the maximum potential. Stay in reserve, send in your Animal Companion to fight, buff your allies and keep Wild Shape for utility only.

Until the DM threatens a TPK, then bust out the big guns.

[Vaz]

If you limit yourself from self buffing (you are neutral, and buffing the self is selfish, and leads to a fall etc), summoning creatures for combat is causing a living being pain.

If you are a spirit shaman, then you don't actually have wild shape or animal companion to worry about.

This way you can concentrate on either battlefield control, with bfc or buffing others. I love playing a weather druid for that type of play.

[Threadnaught]

If you limit yourself from self buffing (you are neutral, and buffing the self is selfish, and leads to a fall etc), summoning creatures for combat is causing a living being pain.

Selfish isn't an alignment, let alone an extremist alignment like LG/CG/LE/CE.


At worst, a Druid could be selfish to the point where they're willing to harm others for personal gain, regardless of who they affect. Which is Evil.

[Vaz]

It is an in character belief. A quirk or roleplaying thing giving you a reason not to do something.

And extreme selfishness is frequently considered to be evil, honestly. This is the exact opposite, so likely NG.

[Troacctid]

Shapeshift Druid, PHB2. No animal companion, no wildshape, badass alternative shapeshifting ability that's less powerful and a lot easier to track.

[Threadnaught]

It is an in character belief. A quirk or roleplaying thing giving you a reason not to do something.

Yes, but by itself, selfishness is not Evil, it is Neutral.


And extreme selfishness is frequently considered to be evil, honestly.

Yes, extreme selfishness. As in the kind where you're willing to hurt others to get what you want?
Where you try to justify anything you do to others to get what you want as, they somehow deserve their pain, or you needed it more than they did, or you're not taking much from them.


Evil isn't just selfish. It's selfish to the point where only Evil can be allowed to have stuff, anyone else can have theirs taken away so Evil can flaunt it, but never share. Unless there's something in it for Evil.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

You could also, for your animal companion, take something deliberately so suboptimal as to be mostly useless. Ask if you can use the 3.0 rules where you can have multiple animal companions, and just take as many ravens or something as you can. You've got a whole flock of birds that know languages and can be useful scouts, and they're all almost entirely useless in combat.

[Vaz]

Yes, but by itself, selfishness is not Evil, it is Neutral.



Yes, extreme selfishness. As in the kind where you're willing to hurt others to get what you want?
Where you try to justify anything you do to others to get what you want as, they somehow deserve their pain, or you needed it more than they did, or you're not taking much from them.


Evil isn't just selfish. It's selfish to the point where only Evil can be allowed to have stuff, anyone else can have theirs taken away so Evil can flaunt it, but never share. Unless there's something in it for Evil.

Way to create an argument out of nothing. I'm making the point that this is what a character may view and not simply decide to go all out Druidzilla.

[Fax Celestis]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?58604-Putting-Variants-Together-The-Force-of-Nature-Druid

[saxavarius]

I'm a fan of moderating the power use of a character rather than the actual power it has. E.G instead of "encounter ending trick A" you use "weakening trick A that allows the other party members to clean up". The one time I played a druid I was able to get a fleshraker as my A.C. Character did little else but cast debuffs and buffs and if someone was about to drop my pet dino literally jumped in to help.

[Gwendol]

I DM a spirit shaman; it's a very nice class. We play in an oriental setting so the whole spirit part of the class is actually put to good use, which I recommend you to consider.

[Spindrift]

I like the spirit shaman, but it's spell list isn't ideal for the concept, in my opinion.
I think they should have gotten their own list with spells like "speak with dead" and some other spells related to ancestors and spirits. The druid list gives them a number of spells they'll likely never have any call for like "enhance wild shape".
It's still a perfectly viable class, I played one from level 3 to level 20.
If you play one see if you can get your DM to let you swap out some druid spells for some more spirit related spells from the OA shaman's spell list, that's what I did and it worked out pretty well.

[Curbstomp]

Spirit Shaman is pretty strong especially given the metamagic text and the ability to switch spells known daily. Also if the list is too limiting Extra Spell is very much a feat you can tack on. I have a player who made a Spirit Shaman strong enough to act as the party's effective Arcane Caster by adding to his spells known and with good feat and prestige class selection.

[Spindrift]

I'm not saying the spell list is too limiting, it's one of the big 3.
I just think it could be more thematicly fitting with some tweaking.

[Curbstomp]

Agreed Spindrift. Clever use of feats and prestige classes can make up for it though even if the DM is disinclined to modify the class spell list.

I really like the Spirit Shaman class features as well, except for level 20... a level 19 Spirit Shaman would probably kill you. :smalleek:

[Spindrift]

Yeah, it's nice that they keep getting abilities as they progress, I hate when there's so many dead levels that prestige classing seems like the only option.

[Khedrac]

2. Are there any other full casting classes that use the druid list and do not have wild shape?

Why has no-one mentioned the Archivist? It uses all divine lists which includes the druid, and does not have wild shape...

[KorbeltheReader]

Why has no-one mentioned the Archivist? It uses all divine lists which includes the druid, and does not have wild shape...

Cleric would work, too, if you picked a nature deity. No wild shape, no animal companion, but still a nature-y caster. Personally, I've always thought the cleric is nice because it can be played as simply or complicated as you want. It doesn't use the druid list, admittedly, but its list is pretty great on its own, and you can add a fair number of druid spells to the list via domains.

[Ettina]

If you limit yourself from self buffing (you are neutral, and buffing the self is selfish, and leads to a fall etc), summoning creatures for combat is causing a living being pain.

Neutral characters can be selfish.

From what I understand, evil characters go out of their way to harm others, good characters go out of their way to help others, and neutral characters either do both or neither. So a selfish character who doesn't make any effort to help or harm others would be neutral.

[Fax Celestis]

The easiest way is to still just play a druid, but use this variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) from Unearthed Arcana.

[Red Fel]

You could always run a straight druid, lowering your access to bookkeeping requiring thingamajigs. The best trade for the animal companion is probably the first shifter substitution level from races of Eberron, beast spirit, so that cuts down on the number of creatures you have to control some. Wild shape has worse trades, but there are ways to cut down on complexity some.

I'm going to go with Eggy here - and I'm surprised nobody else has jumped on Shifters yet. Basically, a Shifter Druid with all of the racial substitution levels cranks your bookkeeping down to more or less just spells: Shifter Druid 1, generally seen as concentrated awesome, replaces your animal companion with a scaling list of powerups. Shifter Druid 4, generally seen as pretty decent, replaces your Resist Nature's Lure ability, which let's face it rarely comes up, with a bonus on Reflex saves (and a penalty on Will saves, but those are your strongest, so no worries). Shifter Druid 5, generally seen as absolute rubbish, replaces Wild Shape with more uses (and upgraded usage) of your racial Shifting ability. In essence, you're giving up your power to turn into anything situationally appropriate with increased usage of your single alternate form, chosen at character creation. Generally seen as rubbish for that reason, but if your goal is to get rid of Wild Shape, this is still a fairly terrible option one possible trade-off.
More importantly, Shifter Druid unlocks the awesome Moonspeaker PrC, which makes Shifting almost functional, and adds some really nice spells to your Druid list.

Basically, a Shifter Druid with all racial substitution levels loses animal companion and Wild Shape, giving them up for stacking passive boosts and more use of the Shifting ability - so you can have some combat functionality without having to own a zoology textbook.

[SVamp]

The easiest way is to still just play a druid, but use this variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) from Unearthed Arcana.

I agree. Then go for an eagle as an AC or a raven or something like that which you use only for scouting, and you're now only a primary spell caster capable of out shinning the entire party, instead of that plus having class features more powerful than certain party members. :smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

I agree. Then go for an eagle as an AC or a raven or something like that which you use only for scouting, and you're now only a primary spell caster capable of out shinning the entire party, instead of that plus having class features more powerful than certain party members. :smalltongue:

Or see if you can use the ranger ACF from PHB-II that trades animal companion for Distracting Attack. Or one of many other class feature equivalency (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuqvG3gSGuF7cG03WmpKTEttSTVla0tDdGhaRmtCT 2c&usp=sharing) exchanges.

My recommendation would be to trade your animal companion for a familiar, then trade your familiar for DR 1/Adamantine and the Alertness feat (warforged racial substitution level), and then trade Alertness for one domain granted power (just the power, not the spells or spell slots). Animal, Plant, any of the elemental domains, Balance (1/d, free action, add Wis to AC untyped for 1 round), Celerity (+10' to all movement speeds you possess), Life (1/d, grant 1d6+CL temp hp with touch for 1 hr/level), Moon (turn/destroy lycanthropes), Pride (reroll 1s on saving throws), Storm (resist electricity 5), and Summoner (+2 CL for summoning spells) are all immediately thematically appropriate for most druids, and you could probably make an argument for quite a good number of others (like scalykind, spider, shadow, pestilence, decay...).

[Extra Anchovies]

I agree. Then go for an eagle as an AC or a raven or something like that which you use only for scouting, and you're now only a primary spell caster capable of out shinning the entire party, instead of that plus having class features more powerful than certain party members. :smalltongue:

Ooooh. I really like this variant. A lot. And with a noncombat-focused companion, it could be pretty great! Thanks for all the tips, I think I'll be playing a druid with this variant next time I get a chance to.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Cleric would work, too, if you picked a nature deity. No wild shape, no animal companion, but still a nature-y caster. Personally, I've always thought the cleric is nice because it can be played as simply or complicated as you want. It doesn't use the druid list, admittedly, but its list is pretty great on its own, and you can add a fair number of druid spells to the list via domains.

Sorcerer, believe it or not, would work better. Limited spell selection, spontaneousness goodness, ability to draw spells from the druid list *. Arcane casting hurts, but what can you do?



*No, really.
These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

Do you know what that means? It means that, effectively, the "Sorcerer list" is every spell that exists. Ever. Yes, even that one.

[Extra Anchovies]

Sorcerer, believe it or not, would work better. Limited spell selection, spontaneousness goodness, ability to draw spells from the druid list *. Arcane casting hurts, but what can you do?



*No, really.

Do you know what that means? It means that, effectively, the "Sorcerer list" is every spell that exists. Ever. Yes, even that one.

What.

What.

This is great. I'll have to ask the DM, I guess, but this would be awesome. Awesome beyond words.

[Vaz]

All characters have access to that via spell creation.

[Sgt. Cookie]

No, that's different. Spell Creation is about creating new spells.

That line is to allow Sorcerers access existing spells. Hell, all the proof you need is in the first line of "Spells"


A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

That word is unique to Sorcerer. Wizard doesn't have it. Bard doesn't have it. Cleric doesn't have it.

Only the Sorcerer does. Add in that line about "unusual spells by study", it's pretty clear what it means.

[eggynack]

No, that's different. Spell Creation is about creating new spells.
You can just create new spells that are identical to old spells, except on your list. It's somewhat irrelevant, ultimately. If there's one thing that spell research and unusual spell knowledge have in common, it's that they both require a big pile of DM adjudication to work at all. And really, the sorcerer is only advantaged over the spirit shaman to the extent that it has spells not on the druid list, which seems like a negligible advantage when the goal is using the druid list.


That word is unique to Sorcerer. Wizard doesn't have it. Bard doesn't have it. Cleric doesn't have it.

Only the Sorcerer does. Add in that line about "unusual spells by study", it's pretty clear what it means.
I disagree. By my reading, and admittedly it's somewhat ambiguous, that word refers to the fact that sorcerers would later gain access to spells not on the wizard/sorcerer list, like the primal line, or wings of cover. Point is, sorcerers could have no access to spells by the method you advise, and the word "primarily" would still make sense. Sorcerers pull primarily off of the wizard/sorcerer list, but they also pull off the sorcerer list.

[Sgt. Cookie]

While logical, I beg to disagree. That word also appears in the Player's Handbook.

When Sorcerer only spells didn't exist.

Why would they need that word, unique to the Sorcerer, with the line "Or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study", which is also unique to the Sorcerer if they meant "Sorcerer only spells" at a later date? If they knew they were going to have Sorcerer only spells why not have some in the PHB?

So, no, I don't agree that the use of the word "primarily" refers to Sorcerer only spells. I maintain my assertion that the Sorcerer can learn every spell in existence.

[eggynack]

While logical, I beg to disagree. That word also appears in the Player's Handbook.

When Sorcerer only spells didn't exist.

Why would they need that word, unique to the Sorcerer, with the line "Or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study", which is also unique to the Sorcerer if they meant "Sorcerer only spells" at a later date? If they knew they were going to have Sorcerer only spells why not have some in the PHB?

So, no, I don't agree that the use of the word "primarily" refers to Sorcerer only spells. I maintain my assertion that the Sorcerer can learn every spell in existence.
I'm aware that sorcerer only spells didn't exist in the PHB, but my assertion is that they were showing unusual levels of foresight, and didn't necessarily want to use up that design space yet. As for the idea that sorcerers can learn every spell in existence, even if they can it's still a thing down to DM adjudication, just like any other methods of adding spells. After all, there's no mention of how unusual the spells can be, or what method is necessary to study them.

[ngilop]

Whenever I play a druid or consider playing a druid, I always have trouble keeping myself from stealing the spotlight because, druids are just too versatile encounter-solvers. Between my character and the animal companion, I am playing not as one character but as two brown bears, one of which is capable of casting fourth-level spells, as early as seventh level. It's a lot of bookkeeping for me, keeping track of all of that. Not that I don't like the druid; I love their spell list. I'm just not a huge fan of the animal companion or wild shape, because they just open up too many doors for me to know what to do.

I've tried to find other classes that have full casting progressions and use the druid list. The only one I've been able to find is the Spirit Shaman, which I quite like.

1. Can a spirit shaman work well as a party's divine caster? I love the flavor of the class, and getting to change what spells I know each day can be pretty great. The limited spells known can easily be circumvented with Spontaneous Summoner and/or Spontaneous Healer. Any other tips for the class?

2. Are there any other full casting classes that use the druid list and do not have wild shape?


Or you can just, ya know, never USE wildshape or your animal companion.

[Extra Anchovies]

Hm. I like all the sorcerer suggestions, but to take it back on topic...

Maybe play a druid using both this-here variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) and the Druidic Avenger from Unearthed Arcana?

I lose:
-Animal Companion (if I wanted one, I could take Wild Cohort still)
-Ability to spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally (easily mitigated via Spontaneous Summoner)
-Armor and shield proficiency (meh)
-Wild Shape
-take -4 on all wild empathy checks

I gain:
-AC bonus as monk (with Wisdom to AC, no less)
-fast movement as monk
-favored enemy as ranger
-swift tracker as ranger
-track feat as ranger
-base land speed increases by 10 ft at 1st level (stacks nicely with fast movement as monk)
-rage 1/day, one extra use every five levels, tireless rage at 17th level

Toss in some self-buffs and this would kick ass, IMO. What do you guys think?

[Phelix-Mu]

It's definitely a viable option. Since druid is great at everything, you can pretty much subtract quite a bit (and not replace it with anything, or just with junk), and still have a great chassis. This variant takes away a few of the druid's toys, gives back some inferior (but perhaps more flavorful or easier to use, from a certain perspective) toys, and you rather predictably still wind up somewhere in Tier 1.

Also, hopefully you aren't playing with a ranger, as this druid is probably even more strongly "Ranger++" than the core druid.

[eggynack]

Toss in some self-buffs and this would kick ass, IMO. What do you guys think?
Well, it would kick ass to about the same extent that a druid without any non-casting class features would kick ass, which means a lot, but also a lot less. Those ACF's tend to suffer that odd druid ACF problem, which is that all of its stuff is stuff a druid was already doing but better before they came along. Like, who needs fast movement when you could be flying 60 or 100 or 250 (frigging mercury dragons, man) feet a round? Who needs rage of favored enemy when wild shape can grant much better fighting ability? Why pick up tracking ability when your animal companion already has that capability? Really, the only thing you get out of that list is the monk AC bonus, but you could be picking that up for 17,000 GP with a monk's belt and clasp.

Ultimately, you can get an even or better trade on an animal companion, whether it's by beast spirit, or by urban companion, but getting a neutral or positive trade on wild shape or summoning is just about impossible. Granted, a druid doesn't exactly have to get a neutral or positive trade on their class features to be awesome, but if you're going into this pair of trades with the thought that you're going to improve on the druid, you should know that you're sorely mistaken.

[Fax Celestis]

Hm. I like all the sorcerer suggestions, but to take it back on topic...

Maybe play a druid using both this-here variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) and the Druidic Avenger from Unearthed Arcana?

I lose:
-Animal Companion (if I wanted one, I could take Wild Cohort still)
-Ability to spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally (easily mitigated via Spontaneous Summoner)
-Armor and shield proficiency (meh)
-Wild Shape
-take -4 on all wild empathy checks

I gain:
-AC bonus as monk (with Wisdom to AC, no less)
-fast movement as monk
-favored enemy as ranger
-swift tracker as ranger
-track feat as ranger
-base land speed increases by 10 ft at 1st level (stacks nicely with fast movement as monk)
-rage 1/day, one extra use every five levels, tireless rage at 17th level

Toss in some self-buffs and this would kick ass, IMO. What do you guys think?

I linked this very combo earlier in the thread.

[Phelix-Mu]

I linked this very combo earlier in the thread.

I think the OP presented it as an update to the discussion rather than as a new revelation.

@eggy: A strict downgrade, to be sure, but not everyone needs the capability to be awesome by RAW to be awesome in a game. All op being equal, it's a step down, but from the lofty power of the core druid, there is plenty of good terrain to stand on. As many other threads have discussed, and I believe you yourself attested, druid minus AC and WS is still solidly Tier 1, and quite playable. Consider the replacement stuff just some interesting utility or a bit of fluff-friendly salad dressing. The meat and potatoes of druid--the spell list--is still there, perfectly intact.

[eggynack]

]
@eggy: A strict downgrade, to be sure, but not everyone needs the capability to be awesome by RAW to be awesome in a game. All op being equal, it's a step down, but from the lofty power of the core druid, there is plenty of good terrain to stand on. As many other threads have discussed, and I believe you yourself attested, druid minus AC and WS is still solidly Tier 1, and quite playable. Consider the replacement stuff just some interesting utility or a bit of fluff-friendly salad dressing. The meat and potatoes of druid--the spell list--is still there, perfectly intact.
Sure. I think I noted some stuff vaguely along those lines in this thread, even. Still, I felt it was worth note that a lot of these options give off a lot of the feel of being strictly worse. Like, not necessarily by the exact definition of the term, but so close as to be nearly indistinguishable from the real thing. I think, if you really want a wild shape ACF, what's worth looking into is what I mentioned in my first post here, aspect of the dragon. It's a worse feature, and worse by a longshot, but it offers stuff that wild shape doesn't, with the most interesting being a fancy bonus to wisdom. I can point to that and say, "Yeah, I wasn't necessarily doing that on a standard druid. Cool." I can't really say that for druidic avenger, or deadly hunter, and I feel like that's an important distinction to make.

[Extra Anchovies]

I think the OP presented it as an update to the discussion rather than as a new revelation.

Yes indeed. The "swift and deadly hunter" variant I learned about in this thread (and props to you, Fax Celestis, for introducing me to it), but the primary aspect of the post was the addition of the Druidic Avenger variant.


@eggy: A strict downgrade, to be sure, but not everyone needs the capability to be awesome by RAW to be awesome in a game. All op being equal, it's a step down, but from the lofty power of the core druid, there is plenty of good terrain to stand on. As many other threads have discussed, and I believe you yourself attested, druid minus AC and WS is still solidly Tier 1, and quite playable. Consider the replacement stuff just some interesting utility or a bit of fluff-friendly salad dressing. The meat and potatoes of druid--the spell list--is still there, perfectly intact.

Yes indeed. Especially since the two useful things (spontaneous summoning and animal companion) are easily mitigated by a feat each. Spontaneous Summoner, of course, takes care of the first one, and Wild Cohort is definitely enough to net me a nice companion for noncombat, maybe an eagle for scouting or something like that.

[eggynack]

Yes indeed. Especially since the two useful things (spontaneous summoning and animal companion) are easily mitigated by a feat each. Spontaneous Summoner, of course, takes care of the first one, and Wild Cohort is definitely enough to net me a nice companion for noncombat, maybe an eagle for scouting or something like that.
Those things are both significantly more limited than the thing you're replacing, and druid feats can do some pretty awesome stuff if you don't trade away all of the cool things you can use them on. Wild shape is probably actually the biggest loss of the three though, despite how crazy spontaneous summoning is. It just does so ridiculously much for a druid.

[Phelix-Mu]

While there are benefits to AC, doubtless, if you are voluntarily nerfing it down to scout from beatstick, then you might be better off with the Urban Companion from Cityscape (the web content, if I'm not mistaken). Being able to actually speak with an intelligent scout is way better than just sharing its eyes or senses via a spell.

Otherwise, you might be able to suffer a dip in an arcane class to net you a familiar. Expensive, but as long as you hit 17 levels of druid casting, you will have everything you need (and quite a bit besides). Plus, if you get a familiar, then you qualify for the Extra Familiar feat, which allows you to recreate the 3.0 AC class feature, and quite a bit besides. Extra Familiar is from Dragon #280, and may be taken multiple times. I believe there is even a feat that lets you add levels of AC and levels of Familiar class features together...from one of those Dragon articles about theurgy.

[Extra Anchovies]

While there are benefits to AC, doubtless, if you are voluntarily nerfing it down to scout from beatstick, then you might be better off with the Urban Companion from Cityscape (the web content, if I'm not mistaken). Being able to actually speak with an intelligent scout is way better than just sharing its eyes or senses via a spell.

Otherwise, you might be able to suffer a dip in an arcane class to net you a familiar. Expensive, but as long as you hit 17 levels of druid casting, you will have everything you need (and quite a bit besides). Plus, if you get a familiar, then you qualify for the Extra Familiar feat, which allows you to recreate the 3.0 AC class feature, and quite a bit besides. Extra Familiar is from Dragon #280, and may be taken multiple times. I believe there is even a feat that lets you add levels of AC and levels of Familiar class features together...from one of those Dragon articles about theurgy.

Hm, that's true. Wild Shape is the main one I want to ditch because it just invites abuse (via warshaper, for example), keeping the animal companion would be cool. Druidic Avenger only appealed to me because it was another package-deal ACF; I think I'll drop it for Urban Companion. Saves me two feats (Wild Cohort and Spontaneous Summoner), so it's worth it.

[eggynack]

Hm, that's true. Wild Shape is the main one I want to ditch because it just invites abuse (via warshaper, for example).
Moving from druid to warshaper isn't exactly the right direction to go if you want to increase your power on the basis of wild shape. Master of many forms is better, but still worse than straight druid. I'm starting to suspect that my initial answer, mostly just hanging out in bat form, was a good one. It's very powerful, but mostly in the way where you just kinda hang back and shoot spells at people. I suppose you might alternately want to hit people, but wild shape isn't really a thing to lose if that's your goal.

[Phelix-Mu]

Or you take the Druidic Avenger, dip wizard or sorcerer (or some other method of gaining familiar), and take Spontaneous Summoner. I can't recall the differences between Urban Companion and Familiar off the top of my head, but there were some differences. Familiar class feature has more support, and access to sor/wiz spell list for wands/scrolls would be something of use.

It seems fairly six one way, half-dozen the other. Druid 19/wiz 1 is still pretty good.

But...I am severely biased. In my dreams, I am a druid/wizard/Arcane Hierophant. So...yeah. Bias.

[eggynack]

Or you take the Druidic Avenger, dip wizard or sorcerer (or some other method of gaining familiar), and take Spontaneous Summoner. I can't recall the differences between Urban Companion and Familiar off the top of my head, but there were some differences. Familiar class feature has more support, and access to sor/wiz spell list for wands/scrolls would be something of use.

It seems fairly six one way, half-dozen the other. Druid 19/wiz 1 is still pretty good.

I think urban companion is generally better, and it seems like you'd be better off with a dip into contemplative or something for the magic domain if ya want wizard wands and scrolls.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think urban companion is generally better, and it seems like you'd be better off with a dip into contemplative or something for the magic domain if ya want wizard wands and scrolls.

Since the OP is already open to strict downgrades, I thought it best to offer all options, regardless of efficacy. But I do agree with your assessment of the matter, for what it's worth.

On the more general note, people often say "or you could just not use your full capability" (heavily paraphrasing). I find a small issue with this might arise when, in a party context, everyone is in it, balls-deep, and the, let's suppose druid, is just putzing around, not trying or using their full capacity for OOC reasons. Kind of seems like cheating the other players out of your character's honest effort.

A mechanical basis for being weaker might bear more weight when the chips are down.

Or maybe not.

[Anlashok]

I find that just holding back with no mechanical impetus breeds animosity. Either something bad happens and you "play for real" and suddenly the game feels like a farce to everyone else because you've just been 'letting them' feel useful... Or something bad happens and you stick to your restrictions and someone gets mad at you for not saving things even though you could have from a mechanical perspective.

[eggynack]

On the more general note, people often say "or you could just not use your full capability" (heavily paraphrasing). I find a small issue with this might arise when, in a party context, everyone is in it, balls-deep, and the, let's suppose druid, is just putzing around, not trying or using their full capacity for OOC reasons. Kind of seems like cheating the other players out of your character's honest effort.


I find that just holding back with no mechanical impetus breeds animosity. Either something bad happens and you "play for real" and suddenly the game feels like a farce to everyone else because you've just been 'letting them' feel useful... Or something bad happens and you stick to your restrictions and someone gets mad at you for not saving things even though you could have from a mechanical perspective.
You mean the full-time desmodu bat thing? By my view, that seems close enough to perfectly optimal that it doesn't feel like a step down. The way I figure it, you should mostly hang out in some bat form, but keep other forms in mind in case they make sense in a given situation. Here, you'd do the former, but not care so much about the latter unless the situation is just glaringly obvious, so it's less playing to less than full capability, and more doing an awesome thing more than you should.

Actually, there might be other ways, like the desmodu hunting bat path, to cut down druid bookkeeping. For example, consider something like rashemi elemental summoning. It's a great feat, but it's also a very simple feat, cutting down your summoning list to mostly orglashes and thomils. There will obviously come situations where another summons is better, particularly in cases like the oread, but I could hardly fault someone for just tossing out an oread instead.

Similarly, maybe exalted wild shape could work. You end up cutting a lot of the wild shape list to the sheer might of blink dog form, and maybe take advantage of the Ex ability thing, but you don't have to do much of the latter. As for the animal companion, I still favor beast spirit, but there are lots of viable options for that class feature, so it doesn't matter much.

So, yeah, I think that holds up. You cut down on bookkeeping, not because it's sub-optimal, but because it's crazy optimal, giving build reasons for doing so at every step in the path. Why am I not deciding whether to be a fleshraker or a polar bear? Because I'm a frigging blink dog. Why am I not scouring the summoning list for the best possible option? Here's an oread for your troubles. Why am I not maintaining a whole other sheet for an animal companion? Have you seen beast spirit? It's awesome. Cool druid beans.

[Almagesto]

*No, really.

Originally Posted by SRD
These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

Do you know what that means? It means that, effectively, the "Sorcerer list" is every spell that exists. Ever. Yes, even that one.

I've been playing for YEARS and somehow missed THAT line?!

[Extra Anchovies]

If I felt like being slightly cheesy, would I be able to go the Dragonwrought Kobold route (with or without aging, depending on the level of cheese allowed by the DM), and take the "Child of Eberron" sovereign archetype? Gives me the Druidic language for free, adds Survival to the class skill list, and lets me cast spells on the druid list as arcane spells. And then I end up netting a familiar in the deal, too!

ETA: Also, would it be worthwhile to use Stalwart Sorcerer and/or Battle Sorcerer, or are those two ACFs never worth it? Not looking for high-op, just for something playable and effective.

[Fax Celestis]

Stalwart and Battle Sorcerer are pretty bad, but you can hack it with them if you really want to. You just stop being a primary caster and start being a secondary combatant with a bag of magic tricks--sort of like a spellthief.

[Extra Anchovies]

Stalwart and Battle Sorcerer are pretty bad, but you can hack it with them if you really want to. You just stop being a primary caster and start being a secondary combatant with a bag of magic tricks--sort of like a spellthief.

Very true. Of course, if I'm already using minor cheese via the Sovereign Archetypes, I could always just add Summon Nature's Ally I to my spells known list, then nab Spontaneous Summoner and get all of them. As long as my wisdom is 14+ (or if I go to the trouble to switch the main casting stat from Charisma to Wisdom), it's going to be fairly useful.

Do you think going sorcerer is worth it? Or should I stick with druid, and nab an Urban Companion and the deadly hunter variant?

[Fax Celestis]

I would go with the latter, personally, as there's less chance of your DM flipping and going "you want to do WHAT?!"

[Extra Anchovies]

I would go with the latter, personally, as there's less chance of your DM flipping and going "you want to do WHAT?!"

That's a good point. If the DM is at all experienced with optimization, I'd be flung out of a window as soon as I asked if Dragonwrought was allowed :smallbiggrin:

Also if I stick with druid I use fewer shenanigans and have either more powerful casting (if Battle Sorcerer) or better combat (if Stalwart Sorcerer/vanilla sorcerer).