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Thoughtbot360
2007-03-08, 03:19 AM
I could have made something smarter, wittier, but whatever....

Notice: these are using a point-buy system of 32 points. This is all using core-book material.

First up:

The For-Any-Situation Warrior!
Dwarf Ranger (Dual-wield style)
Str 18 (16)
Dex 17 (13)
Con 10
Int 8
Wis 11 (3)
Cha 6

Ideal Weapons: Two Dwarven Waraxes, Greataxe/sword, light hammer (hidden, if the guards body-search you, tell them its "fer blacksmithin'. Been in th' family fer generations!" you're a dwarf! Who's going to question?:smallwink: Its just like sneaking your assualt rifle past airport security with the "goin' huntin'" excuse), Heavy Crossbow/Compsite Longbow
Armor: Chain Shirt, (Also Tower shield if you can convince the DM you have room to actually hold it.)

Important skills: Survival (for Tracking), Search (for Stonecutting)

This was originally designed with a 38 point 4th level character for the D&D meet in mind, but with 32 points, you can have a better-than decent Ranger (provided you're used to playing with half-orc like mental stats :smallbiggrin:). There are many reasons to get a Dwarf (Bonuses vs. common enemies, particuarly needed bonuses to saving throws and constitution) but the big one is that they get proficency in the waraxe for free! You get half your strength bonus for your offhand weapon, and 1.5 x your str bonus for using a two-handed weapon, making 18 Strength a pretty optimized number.

The reason behind this is that there are three plausible weapon choices for a high strength charcter:

1) Greatsword/axe, for accuracy and damage. Good when fighting monsters that aren't particularly dangerous, but have a lot of hit points. The weapon of choice for a fighter with great cleave.
2) Two Bastard Swords/Waraxes, for AC and damage (particuarly the 2d10 + 1.5 str mod damage). Good versus the flanked Hill Giant.
3) d10 weapon + Shield, for AC and accuracy. Good when fighting the horde of kobolds armed with poisoned spears (particuarly anything with poison)

This would be all well and good, until you're fighting that darn lich. Having a bludgegoing weapon as a side arm is benefical for certain monsters

Here are my choices class features (up to 4th level)
1 Dodge,WF:waraxe, or Toughness feat;
2 Two-weapon fighting style!
3 Diehard feat; Whats that? Endurance prerequiste? You get it free at level 3!
4 Medium viper companion, +1 to Dex, Get one 1st level spell per day!

You could just play a dwarf fighter, or multiclass into barbarain after 2nd level and put the points in wisdom (they really are only there for spell casting) to constituion or intelligence, but the build as it stands just gives you so much free stuff!


The Perfect Scout! Now if only you could trust him saying theres no treasure
Elf Rogue ("You'll never take me alive!"/Balanced/"I know a guy.")
Str 16/14/10 (10/6/2)
Dex 20 (16)
Con 6
Int 14/14/15 (6/6/8)
Wis 8/10/10 (0/2/2)
Cha 8/10/12 (0/2/4)

Ideal weapons: Rapier and light mace, Composite Longbow
Armor: Studded Leather armor. Possibly Regular Leather later on.

Most important skills: Search, Disable Device, Open Lock
Feats: Two-weapon fighting (1st level), weapon finese (3rd level)

The basic thing to get here is: Elves and Halflings should have switched favored classes. I mean, as a Wizard, not only is an Elf more vulnerable than usual, but they miss out on some important possibilities as a guard. A wizard requires 1 hour of study after resting, when they could be armed and ready for something to jump the party in the middle of the night. Also, you two important reasons to search: Secret doors AND traps. Also, Search is a class skill as a rogue. The +2 to search and low-light vision are good too. Now just dual-weild to score as many sneak attacks as possible! With a Keen, Vorpal Rapier and Improved critical, you stand a chance of assasianating anyone! The halfling may have some bonuses to hiding (small creature) and moving silently, but I prefer my Wizard build below to a halfling rogue.


"I'm not a gnome!"
Halfling Wizard
Str 6
Dex 20 (16)
Con 12 (4)
Int 15 (8)
Wis 10 (2)
Cha 10 (2)

Ideal weapons: (Small) Heavy Crossbow. But, really: Alchemist's fire and Acid
Armor: Size modifier. The Mage armor spell. Consider "fighting defensively" most of the time and getting the Dodge feat at some point. Actually, keep your head down.

Important skills: Alchemy (what? You wanna BUY all those grenade-like items at full price?), Knowledges (Face off against the bard on a game show!)

The Halfling has three advantages over the Elf being a Wizard: 1) No constitution penalty 2) Bonus to Move Silently mean that any diversion translates to going pretty undetected 3) AC and Hide bonuses from size, especially with a reduce person spell. His major penalty seems to be his strength modifer. Climb, Jump, and Swim are the classic Str-based skills. The Halfling gets bonuses to two of these skills, but the third one (Swim) is going to give you trouble (In Lord of the Rings, Hobbits DID have a reputation for being terrible swimmers). All I can say is, thats what the water breathing spell is for (just make sure you have a watertight container for your spellbook!) As for weapon damage, I reccomend Alchemist's Fire (the best use of your racial +1 to thrown weapons ever!) Not just Alchemist's fire but Thunderstones, Holy water, Molotov Flasks of Oil, and Acid when you're running low on money. Let's do some math here: You have +5 Dex, +1 racial bonus to thrown items, AND +1 from your size! That's a +7 ranged TOUCH attack from a level 1 wizard! Just make your you don't carry more alchemist's fire than your party has hit points, lest an accident triggers a TPK. Of course, you won't be attacking with just crossbow bolts and acid, you will have all your evocation spells for that!

Oh dear-I'm a giagantic nerd :smallfrown:

greenknight
2007-03-08, 07:24 AM
With a Keen, Vorpal Rapier and Improved critical, you stand a chance of assasianating anyone!

Did they change the rules? I didn't think you could put Vorpal on a piercing weapon.

Rigeld2
2007-03-08, 07:32 AM
That, and Keen and Imp. Crit dont stack, and crit range doesnt affect Vorpal - heads only roll on a 20.

Thought is left in 3.0 maybe?

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-08, 12:31 PM
Funny thing about 3.0 version: I had all the core books for 3.0, and then lent them to my nephew (who, incidentially, never uses the rules anyway >_<). I recently purchased a copy of the 3.5 player's handbook but have yet to buy the DMG or the MM.

Actually, I kinda knew about rapiers not being able to be vorpal, but I never knew about the crit range rules...

KoDT69
2007-03-08, 12:50 PM
I knew a player that was in the campaign preceeding my first DM's campaign that started me into D&D. He wasted his first wish on a Vorpal Club! Wow, even I beeing a noob at the time laughed as his retardation! :smallwink:

Zincorium
2007-03-08, 12:52 PM
Funny thing about 3.0 version: I had all the core books for 3.0, and then lent them to my nephew (who, incidentially, never uses the rules anyway >_<). I recently purchased a copy of the 3.5 player's handbook but have yet to buy the DMG or the MM.

Actually, I kinda knew about rapiers not being able to be vorpal, but I never knew about the crit range rules...

Yeah, you can look it up in the SRD (Need a link?) to find out what's what in the new stuff.

Essentially, most crit-range enhancing things no longer work together in 3.5, just pick the easiest option and go with it. Vorpal only works on a straight up natural 20, you can crit many times but it won't effect the enchantment. In my opinion, they turned it from the uber-cheese to almost a waste of an enchantment, with all the things you can do with +5 in enhancements you really are losing a lot.

As for the characters, they're solid, but kinda meh. I understand the 'core only' bit, but with all the material out now, unless that's a consistent limitation, going straight through 20 would be good only for the rogue (if that), the dwarf is probably much better off going with a high constitution and the Deepwarden PrC from races of stone, and the halfling wizard has scads of choices in PrCs, even in core, so be concentrating more on getting into those asap. Toughness, weapon focus, and dodge are some of the least useful standalone feats, unless you're desperate for the feat chains there is pretty much always a better choice no matter what level you're at.

Essentially, I don't really agree with the 'number crunched' moniker, they're good characters and that's about all that can be said about them.

Draz74
2007-03-08, 01:36 PM
Yeah, you can look it up in the SRD (Need a link?) to find out what's what in the new stuff.

Here is a WONDERFUL tool. (http://d20srd.org)

And yeah, Diehard, Dodge, Weapon Focus, and Toughness are all really weak feats. Go with Power Attack for sure for the Dwarf Ranger.

Two-Weapon Fighting is OK, but not great, so I question the wisdom of having two members of a party-of-three that use it. Maybe change your Rogue into an archer-type? (He is an elf, after all.)

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-08, 02:24 PM
Hmm...I was having trouble picking the first level feat for the dwarf....

Also, notice that I ultimately told the halfling to just keep his head down ^_^. Not that his AC sucks, thats one of the selling points of being a halfling. Of course, the halfling will get his hands on some bracers of armor at some point. The reason keeping the

As for the Elf being an archer: Well, he does have a longbow in the gear listed. I would probably keep the light mace and weapon finese feat because arrows are even worst than Roy's greatsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0078.html) for fighting skeletons. (I mean, wouldn't the arrow just pass through the skeleton's ribcage? Or get lodged in his empty eye socket?)

Draz74
2007-03-08, 02:30 PM
Of course, the halfling will get his hands on some bracers of armor at some point. The reason keeping the

... ???


As for the Elf being an archer: Well, he does have a longbow in the gear listed. I would probably keep the light mace and weapon finese feat because arrows are even worst than Roy's greatsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0078.html) for fighting skeletons. (I mean, wouldn't the arrow just pass through the skeleton's ribcage? Or get lodged in his empty eye socket?)

Yeah, you should certainly have a backup weapon, and a mace is a good choice. Whether you should spend a feat on that backup weapon is more debatable, but not a horrible choice.

If you're dropping the two-weapon fighting style, get a buckler. More AC without any penalties to one-handed melee attacks or archery.

Jack Mann
2007-03-08, 07:12 PM
Forget about craft (alchemy) and dodge for the halfling. Alchemical weapons stop being useful after the first couple of levels (they're only barely worthwhile when you're low on spells), and wizards are feat-hungry creatures. Spellcraft, concentration, and knowledges are far more important for a wizard than saving a little cash at low levels. Feats like spell focus, spell penetration, and metamagic feats are much better for you than dodge. Dodge is never a worthwhile feat except as a prerequisite for something else.

For the dwarven ranger, you're still better off going with a great sword, unless you know you're going to be facing your favored enemies a lot. Two weapon fighting doesn't do very good damage unless you're getting extra damage somewhere. Favored enemy helps, but if you're facing anything else, you're going to be hurting. You don't get 1.5 strength with the dwarven waraxe unless you're actually using it with both hands. If you use it with one hand, it counts as a one-handed weapon. And using a dwarven waraxe in your off hand means you'll be taking a -4 penalty to all hits. Not a good idea.

You'd be better off either going with archery, or (given the party composition) taking cleric instead and concentrating on two-handed fighting.

Hario
2007-03-08, 08:02 PM
for arrows vs. Skeletons/Zombies they have blunt/slashing arrows you can buy I forget the books its probably core though, so an archer's arrows aren't ALWAYS peircing damage.

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-08, 10:38 PM
For the dwarven ranger, you're still better off going with a great sword, unless you know you're going to be facing your favored enemies a lot. Two weapon fighting doesn't do very good damage unless you're getting extra damage somewhere. Favored enemy helps, but if you're facing anything else, you're going to be hurting. You don't get 1.5 strength with the dwarven waraxe unless you're actually using it with both hands. If you use it with one hand, it counts as a one-handed weapon. And using a dwarven waraxe in your off hand means you'll be taking a -4 penalty to all hits. Not a good idea.

You'd be better off either going with archery, or (given the party composition) taking cleric instead and concentrating on two-handed fighting.

Now hold on a second. The offhand weapon gets 1/2 the strength bonus. Maybe my focus was a little too near-sighted at low levels, and maybe I haven't studied my new 3.5 PHB enough, but don't two waraxes add up to:

1d10 + str mod
+ 1d10 + 1/2 str mod
______________
2d10 + 1.5 on a standard action?

Also, sorry for leaving that incomplete thought in my other post, I was in a hurry to get somewhere.

Zincorium
2007-03-08, 11:16 PM
Now hold on a second. The offhand weapon gets 1/2 the strength bonus. Maybe my focus was a little too near-sighted at low levels, and maybe I haven't studied my new 3.5 PHB enough, but don't two waraxes add up to:

1d10 + str mod
+ 1d10 + 1/2 str mod
______________
2d10 + 1.5 on a standard action?

Also, sorry for leaving that incomplete thought in my other post, I was in a hurry to get somewhere.

NOT on a standard action. On a full attack, perhaps, but on a standard action you can only attack with one (your main hand unless you've got a real good reason not to). So on charges, attacks of opportunity, and situations where you had to take a move action, you're only dealing 1d10 + str rather than str * 1.5.

On a full attack, you'll deal 2d10 plus str * 1.5 only if you score hits with both, and since you've got a -4 penalty to hit, it's a bit screwy to just take it for granted. Also, you get very little love from power attack.

Also, remember that the rules errata specifically allows for a two handed weapon and armor spikes or unarmed strikes (think a headbutt or kick) with twf. Both are light weapons, so on a full attack with a common greatsword and armor spikes, with only -2 penalties, you deal 3d6 + str *2. And if you are good with the unarmed strike fu, it can be an even better weapon, with higher damage and some return from PA.

That is a much better option, especially since you are getting TWF regardless of styles. Download the latest version of the FAQ from wizard's site and show it to your DM if they don't believe you on the two handed and two weapon fighting bit.

Jack Mann
2007-03-09, 12:49 AM
As well, you can't use power attack on your off hand, and only on a one-for-one trade-off with your main hand, swinging things much further towards two-handed attacks.

Going with the armor spikes and a greatsword is a better choice for a ranger than a longsword and a shortsword (or two dwarven waraxes), since you can choose to just ignore your off-hand attack and go with your main attack when you need accuracy (high AC) or high damage per hit (high damage reduction). It wouldn't be a good choice for a fighter, though, since it's a negligible amount of damage for the feat investment.

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-09, 12:58 AM
NOT on a standard action. On a full attack, perhaps, but on a standard action you can only attack with one (your main hand unless you've got a real good reason not to). So on charges, attacks of opportunity, and situations where you had to take a move action, you're only dealing 1d10 + str rather than str * 1.5.

On a full attack, you'll deal 2d10 plus str * 1.5 only if you score hits with both, and since you've got a -4 penalty to hit, it's a bit screwy to just take it for granted. Also, you get very little love from power attack.

Also, remember that the rules errata specifically allows for a two handed weapon and armor spikes or unarmed strikes (think a headbutt or kick) with twf. Both are light weapons, so on a full attack with a common greatsword and armor spikes, with only -2 penalties, you deal 3d6 + str *2. And if you are good with the unarmed strike fu, it can be an even better weapon, with higher damage and some return from PA.

That is a much better option, especially since you are getting TWF regardless of styles. Download the latest version of the FAQ from wizard's site and show it to your DM if they don't believe you on the two handed and two weapon fighting bit.

.....well that kills my build. Don't armor spikes need plate armor? (Then again I imagine I could get some spikey shoulder guards and do a body slam after my great sword attacks...) Do you care to provide a link to this errata? I can't find anything about TWF, armor spikes, or Two-handed weapons in the PHB 3.5 errata. I'll say one thing though; being a human for the build just topped being a dwarf since Improved unarmed strike and Power Attack just got sexier way choices to have by 2nd level (or even 1st, if you play a human fighter to buy TWF. I'm back to my Neverwinter nights character! He started with Ambedexterity, TWF, and Exotic weapon: Bastard Sword, only now I have 3d6 damage and better accuracy AND two freed-up feats to spend on something more useful! Wow!) Why does anyone use bastard swords or war axes? (I suppose they hold them in one hand and a shield in the other because a d10 is better than a d8, but still; every non-dwarf has to pay a feat for the privellage.)

I still stand by my statement that halflings make better wizards than elves though.:smalltongue: Not that Halflings make terrible rogues however...

Jack Mann
2007-03-09, 01:26 AM
There are actually no rules on which armors can have spikes on them. Reasonably, you could put 'em on a chain shirt, or else a mithral breastplate at higher levels (which you should be wearing once you can afford it).

Zincorium
2007-03-09, 03:46 AM
.....well that kills my build. Don't armor spikes need plate armor? (Then again I imagine I could get some spikey shoulder guards and do a body slam after my great sword attacks...) Do you care to provide a link to this errata? I can't find anything about TWF, armor spikes, or Two-handed weapons in the PHB 3.5 errata. I'll say one thing though; being a human for the build just topped being a dwarf since Improved unarmed strike and Power Attack just got sexier way choices to have by 2nd level (or even 1st, if you play a human fighter to buy TWF. I'm back to my Neverwinter nights character! He started with Ambedexterity, TWF, and Exotic weapon: Bastard Sword, only now I have 3d6 damage and better accuracy AND two freed-up feats to spend on something more useful! Wow!) Why does anyone use bastard swords or war axes? (I suppose they hold them in one hand and a shield in the other because a d10 is better than a d8, but still; every non-dwarf has to pay a feat for the privellage.)

I still stand by my statement that halflings make better wizards than elves though.:smalltongue: Not that Halflings make terrible rogues however...

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070222a

The FAQ has a lot of good stuff, it should be one everyone's reading list.

And as far as the bastard sword/war axe goes, the uncanny blow trick from exotic weapon master gives you double your strength bonus when you use a normally one handed exotic weapon in two hands. Not bad for a one level dip, but it's not spectacular unless you have ungodly strength. And if you're playing oriental adventures, the katana (a masterwork bastard sword) is a route to a lot of interesting places, unfortunately none of them 3.5.

Few exotic weapons are really worth a feat anyway, spiked chain being one of the few that are, due to it's (relatively) unique reach property, but if you have a regular reach weapon and spiked armor, you still threaten all sqares within 10', and theoretically this is the case with improved unarmed strike as well (regular unarmed strikes don't threaten, thus the usual problem).

Spiked armor is frankly the shiznit.

Jack Mann
2007-03-09, 03:48 AM
I generally go with a spiked gauntlet. Not quite as silly to imagine.

Zincorium
2007-03-09, 04:41 AM
I generally go with a spiked gauntlet. Not quite as silly to imagine.

I dunno, I can definitely see spiked vambraces being used along with a big sword, and those could be either spiked armor or spiked gauntlets (you'd think that spiked armor would mean you automatically had spiked gauntlets anyway).

The trick is that spiked gauntlets require a hand to use, and the FAQ (On page 37, for the newest version) only talks about armor spikes, so that's a grey area which I would avoid trodding upon, especially since you're actually reducing your damage by doing so (1d4 vs 1d6) unless you only have proficiency in simple weapons.

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-09, 03:54 PM
So I could concievable have with my same Dwarf ranger with a chain shirt, buy some padded (or plate) vambraces (AKA elbow pads/elbow plates?) with a big spike in the middle of the padding, and call them armor spikes and say on the last attack with the greatsword (or greataxe for thematic flavor since he's a dwarf) that I give the enemy a quick elbow. Also have another spike on a guantlet's wrist I buy (for hand protection) and score a hit in between greatsword blows when I get Improved and Greater TWF. Well at least I can explain it to the DM exactly how I'm attacking now.

Also what's wrong with the Bard defense league? Its not like they used their Glibness and Charm person spells on me to get me to like....oh.

Zincorium
2007-03-09, 05:34 PM
Also what's wrong with the Bard defense league? Its not like they used their Glibness and Charm person spells on me to get me to like....oh.

I personally just dislike the rhetoric I've heard from their most vocal members.

Bards have the same potential for fun and roleplaying as any character, they're not the most powerful class or a replacement for anyone, but they're good in the niche they occupy. I believe this. The bard defense league apparently does not.

On a side not, yeah, halflings do make better spellcasters than elves. Elves are decent bards (see how it ties in), rogues, and archery type clerics. But as a wizard, a constitution penalty and additional weapon proficiencies just don't make for as good a wizard as they'd like you to believe. Oh, and elves take longer than anyone to even learn the basics of wizardry. It takes 2d6 years for a human to learn to be a first level wizard, according to the phb, but elves take 10d6 years to learn the exact same level of knowledge. I'm pretty sure that's because elves have a severe learning deficiency.

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-10, 12:47 AM
I personally just dislike the rhetoric I've heard from their most vocal members.

Bards have the same potential for fun and roleplaying as any character, they're not the most powerful class or a replacement for anyone, but they're good in the niche they occupy. I believe this. The bard defense league apparently does not.

so it was a suggestion spell...OH! I mean, I agree. Being a bard is fun because you have a little bit of everything and ...just because. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html)


On a side not, yeah, halflings do make better spellcasters than elves. Elves are decent bards (see how it ties in), rogues, and archery type clerics. But as a wizard, a constitution penalty and additional weapon proficiencies just don't make for as good a wizard as they'd like you to believe.

I know. Con is needed both for an important skill for casters AND to shore up a very big weakness (small HD). Meanwhile Halflings have NO penalty to con AND a size modifier.:smallcool:


Oh, and elves take longer than anyone to even learn the basics of wizardry. It takes 2d6 years for a human to learn to be a first level wizard, according to the phb, but elves take 10d6 years to learn the exact same level of knowledge. I'm pretty sure that's because elves have a severe learning deficiency.

...And then after that, they level up just as quickly as the human or halfling wizard does :smallamused: This limitation is all because of a vain attempt to balance the elves, who live so much longer, with the other races. But, as V says, that hardly seems fair! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html) And it isn't, but you know, the world must be swarming with high level elves because, as I said, after that they only have their -2 constitution holding them back! And if your DM subscribes to the (smart) idea that XP is awarded for excitement, fullfillment, or surviving through potentially life-threatening events, and training (what happens if an elf goes through ANOTHER 10d6 years of magical study? Will he only get a second level of wizard? I should hope not!) But the problem is that high-level characters have lots of power and are impossible to kill, making an army of elves with a few hundred years of experience (points) under their belts a hands-down favorite for conquering the world. Why, look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37024), notice how a lot of posters suggest sacrificing the 100,000 commoners? A 20th level Wizard can do that. What's that? Elves don't breed as quickly as humans? Thats the beauty of an empire my friend! You enslave/tax all the "lesser" humanoids and have your species run things.

However, the real problem is that all Adventurers have to be an adult and Elves only reach the equivalent of 15 at 110 years:smalleek: . That means they are an infants for about 18 or so years, and when theyl 30 years, they'd be the physical age of kindergarders!

Pull-ups theme: I'm a big-kid now!
Me: Its about damn time. I hit a mid-life crisis at some point while you were still learning control over your bowels.

There are some things you just don't want to be for over 60 years. Among them are 1) A child 2) A Peasant or Serf cuz' the nonfarmer elves need food or 3) Some who wants to start his adventuring character as a wizard rather than spend a few weeks in bard camp and multiclass to wizard during the adventuring carreer that can start as soon as you become a PC class.

Of course, I thought up a solution to these problems that lets elves cope better with the problems of childhood and the need for farmers (who are always near the bottom of the caste system in pre-industrial society simply BECAUSE societies were broken between those free, although not compelled, to invent, and those that grow the food to feed them.) As well as let them overcome their "severe learning disability" without breaking world balance. But I'm out of time! I'll post it later if you're curious.:smallwink: (It comes in the form of a campaign setting, of rather a part thereof. I'm hoping to make a setting off of semi-hairbrain explainations of certain unusual traits of the PHB races. I'm also going to post a thread on the Homebrew forum that stars a land from this incomplete setting that can be used all by itself for an all-dwarf campaign!)

Matthew
2007-03-10, 02:07 PM
No, no. You are confusing the mechanism for gameplay with the campaign world. Experience isn't just acquired as time goes on and it doesn't fuel the levelling of NPCs. They don't work by the same rules as PCs. An NPC Elf has exactly as many levels as the story requires, and that's all there is to it.

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-10, 03:12 PM
No, no. You are confusing the mechanism for gameplay with the campaign world. Experience isn't just acquired as time goes on and it doesn't fuel the levelling of NPCs. They don't work by the same rules as PCs. An NPC Elf has exactly as many levels as the story requires, and that's all there is to it.

But, but see. Theres a problem. Lets say a PC falls into a lake of acid and takes way more total immersion acid damage than he should. Fortunately, the PCs, after pooling thier money find they have enough for a true resurrection, OR incidentally a magical item that could help the surviving party members at large in such a way that it would break the game if they had it at a point too early in the campaign:

Lets assume they are a low level party:

Party: We want a True resurrection. It'll take all our money but, we owe Curly, the butter-fingered Rogue.
DM: (Decides to be generous) Okay, you fight an 18th level Cleric whose a friend of Montague, the acolyte Curly saved from that Ogre that was rampaging through the city last month, and Montague put in a good word for Curly. The Cleric has a tall, kind of lanky frame and an ironic tough-guy scar on one cheek.
Cleric: Ah! It grieves me that such a hero meet such a horrible fate! I would gladly perform the ressurection for free, but the temple needs money, diamonds don't grow on trees and all that, but I'll give you boys a 50% discount, the rest will have to come up of my pocket.
Party: Yay!:smallbiggrin:
One PC: Hmm.... *pulls out a universal remote, and rewinds time to when the players were deciding on the True Ressurrection or ...something else*

Time-warping PC: Hey guys *argues persuasively for a magic item*
Party: We want the Keg of unlimited Exploding potions!
DM: (Decides to keep anything even like that as far away from the PCs as possible) No. There aren't any reachable 16th level or higher casters, so logically, they haven't made any items.
PC: Not even Clerics?
DM: No.
PC: What if we wanted to TR Curly?
DM: Too bad.:smallmad:
PC: But what if we go to a city that has a 17th level Cleric? Couldn't we get the Resurrection or the Keg then?
DM: Even then, the NPC cleric doesn't get xp like you do, you'd have to find one that be willing to devote the xp to such an item (he'd make a profit on the gold part), and rarity might even drive up the price.
PC: :smalleek: But, the market is swarmed with magic items, don't low-level mages care about thier experience, even more than high level ones because then they'd become one on the few, the proud, the 18th level (tm) who are in such high demand?
DM: There is no Keg for sale, just drop it.
PC: Ok, we go for the TR then.
DM: Fine. You find one. The Cleric has a tall, kind of lanky frame and an ironic tough-guy scar on one cheek.
PC: *thats the guy!* Ah yes-
Cleric: Whaddya want? I'm a very busy priest around these parts!
PC: But...we need a True Rez for Curly...
Cleric: Curly? Who in the nine hells is Curly?
PC: :smallconfused:
Cleric: I'll give you your "True Rez" but it'll cost you double for bothering me!
Party: :smallfrown:
Time-warping PC: *messes around with his universal remote and makes the party high level this time*

DM: (Wants to get on with the dramatic high-level adventure of saving the kingdom from the demonic invasion) Sure. You get the Keg and the Rez. At discount prices.
Time-warping PC: But what about a Keg of Epic heroism?
DM: Sigh...No. There aren't any reachable Epic level casters, so logically, they haven't made any items.
PC: *has seen enough, and sets the universe back in place goes back to just raising Curly*

Matthew
2007-03-10, 07:58 PM
It's not really a problem, unless there is a consistancy issue, which there appears to be in the situations you are describing. The DM has to decide in advance whether there are going to be High Level Casters in place and what they are willing to do. Bear in mind that NPCs do not earn or expend Experience Points. Magic Item creation occurs as the story requires.

That's not to say there are not problems in the ways D&D mechanics interact with versimillitude, there are plenty, but mechanics should never take precedence over the story, they are only there to govern the interactions of Player Characters and Non Player Characters and play next to no role in how NPCs interact with one another.

Zincorium
2007-03-10, 09:43 PM
My view on the problem is that it's an overlay of a system designed for PC's onto a gameworld where such things are abstract. An NPC cleric shouldn't need to have the combat abilities of a high level cleric to cast high level spells, but that's the way most people think of it. My group thinks of it as a restructured 'blacksmith dilemma', which is the bemusement that characters who spend most of their time in dungeons can nonetheless rapidly outstrip the local weapon or armor smith in skill.

The fix is really easy, actually: NPCs don't use player character creation rules. They don't have levels. The blacksmith only has maybe 8 hp but can make masterwork items with ease, the cleric can cast resurrection when their deity is happy, not because they happen to have that memorized. And it works pretty darn well, keeping verisimilitude intact.

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-11, 05:35 AM
My view on the problem is that it's an overlay of a system designed for PC's onto a gameworld where such things are abstract. An NPC cleric shouldn't need to have the combat abilities of a high level cleric to cast high level spells, but that's the way most people think of it. My group thinks of it as a restructured 'blacksmith dilemma', which is the bemusement that characters who spend most of their time in dungeons can nonetheless rapidly outstrip the local weapon or armor smith in skill.

The fix is really easy, actually: NPCs don't use player character creation rules. They don't have levels. The blacksmith only has maybe 8 hp but can make masterwork items with ease, the cleric can cast resurrection when their deity is happy, not because they happen to have that memorized. And it works pretty darn well, keeping verisimilitude intact.

I like that approach. You recall I was going to post a bit of my campaign setting to explain how I take on the problem of NPCs and character levels? Well, its very similar to that. My first step is to use SargentBrothers' one hit die rules for his historical campaigns. Its included in the spoiler but the importatn part is that characters have stagnant hit points. They get their constituition score + 1/2 their class hit die + the toughness feat (which doesn't stack in this system, you only learn it once.) This of course includes a lot of rules additions included in the spoiler:

AC Bonus : Every class gets an AC bonus equal to the Base Attack Bonus of the class. This bonus is negated if the character is immobilized. Shields provide a greater AC bonus than they previously did. Bucklers or other small protective devices add +1 AC. Small shields, such a round shields, add +2 to AC. Medium shields, such a heater and teardrop shields, add +3 to AC. Large shields, such as Viking round shields, add +4 AC. Body shields, such as Roman ones, add +5 to AC.

Hit Points : Player Characters do not get class hit dice, rather they have a number of Hit Points equal to their Constitution plus half of the of the maximum hit points that can be roled for their class at level one. This is the same for inhuman creatures, their hit points are modified by their size:
Fine & Diminutive : No hit Points, instant kill
Tiny : 1/4 Constitution Hit Points
Small : 1/2 Constitution Hit Points
Medium : Constitution Hit Points
Large : 1.5 * Constitution Hit Points
Huge : 2 * Constitution Hit Points
Gargantuan : 3 * Constitution Hit Points
Colossal : 4 * Constitution Hit Points
No-name faceless NPC's have half of the above hit points, while named or important NPC's have the same Hit Points as PCs do. Something that is brought to zero or fewer Hit Points can survive down to negative their maximum Hit Points before dying. The Toughness feat may only be taken once.

Sneak Attack : A rogue's sneak attack does 1d6 damage plus 1 per level of the rogue plus the damage for a normal attack of that type. Every other level (2, 4, 6, 8, etc.) a rogue gets a +1 bonus to score a critical hit on a sneak attack. This means that on the sneak attack roll of a 5th level rogue, a natural 18 on a roll to hit would be treated as a natural 20. This only applies to the first roll. Non-rogues who successfully sneak attack an opponent do an additional 1d6 damage but nothing more.

Magic Spells : Magical spells can only inflict one die of damage to any single opponent per level of the spell, plus the level of the casting magic user. For example, a level 10 wizard casts fireball - everyone in the area of effect takes 3d6+10 damage before a saving throw is made. Some damage spells ignore armor (such as horrid wilting), while others (like magic missile or fireball) half (round down) the armor value of the victim(s). Healing magic can only heal up to the spell's level in Hit Points to any particular target. This means that Cure Light Wounds will only heal 1 point of damage. Level 0 spells cannot heal actual Hit Points, but it will stop bleeding and stabilize the dying.

Armor Rules

Armor Rating : This is a value of damage reduction that a character has based upon the armor that they wear, the toughness of their skin, or anything else which provides a physical barrier that protects the character from injury. Armor provides no bonuses to AC. Below are new rules :

Damage Reduction
Padded or soft leather : 1
Thick leather, wood, wicker, hide, weave, etc. : 2
Buff coat, cuirboulli, or thick hide : 3
Byzainted or light chainmail : 4
Heavy chainmail, scale, splint : 5
Coat of plates, banded : 6
Light or partial plate : 7
Heavy plate : 8

Critical Threat Range
Critical threat scores are based on the armor being worn and not the weapon. A successful critical hit ignores the armor's damage reduction instead of multiplying damage. If an entire character’s body is covered by armor (including the face), then the critical threat range is 20. If the helm is open faced, it drops by 1. If there is no helmet, it drops by 2. If the arms are only partially covered, it drops by 1, if there are is no arm protection, it drops by 2. If only one arm is covered it drops by 1. The same applies to legs. If the body is not protected, it drops by 4 and if the body is only partly protected, it drops by 2.

Armor Weight
When determining the degree to which a suit of armor weighs down a character, double (quadruple for body) the damage reduction of each region protected and all locations together (head + left arm + right arm + left leg + right leg + body). If the area is only halfway protected, do not double the value. For every 10 points above 10 that the total value comes to, there is a -1 armor penalty. For every 25 points, reduce the character Dexterity modifier by -1. For every 35 points of armor, the wearer of the armor suffers a -5 penalty to movement speed.
Bronze armor weighs a little more than steel or iron armor (same penalties) but it provides one less point of armor Damage Reduction. Masterwork armor either acts as if it were 1 DR lighter or adds 1 to DR.

Armor Examples

Armor DR Dex Penalty Speed Critical
Full Plate 8 -4 -10 -15 20
Chain Haulberk 5 -1 -3 -5 16
Roman Lorica 6 -1 -3 -5 16
Buffcoat 3 - - - 15
Breastplate 8 -1 -2 - 14
Thick Clothing 1 - - - 18
Full Chainmail 5 -2 -5 -5 19
Greek Plate 6 -2 -6 -5 18
Scale Shirt 5 - -1 - 14
Samurai Armor 5 -2 -6 -5 20
Field Plate 7 -3 -8 -10 20
A Great Helm 8 - - - 12


Any how Elven biology and culture behaves in my world is like so:

Elven magic and agricultural freedom: Elves have a unique bond with nature (how original, I know), but this stems from how their magic works. Vanesti Spellweaving is a form of Elvish magic that takes a long time to cultivate, as an elf will create a unique spell and scribe it on a tree. And as the tree grows, the spell gets more powerful. Many Elven farmers (because every society that has permanent settlements must have farmers) made their unique spells to boost agriculture, and a number of those spells grew to become quite powerful. This made farming a much less labor-intensive process. Sadly, bewteen their immortality and their magic, Elven society has been given too much too fast and has, paradoxically, stagnated. (See Elven imperalism for more info)

Elven aging: This uses the drowtales (http://www.drowtales.com) model. Using Ariel as an example, she is 10 years old when we first met her (http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?location=20030627), and looks the part (possibly quite younger, when her scale is compared to some adults. (http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?location=20030929)and 4 years later, she hasn't grown that much (http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?location=20020329).) Basically, Elves take some 20-25 years to reach puberty, which is still freaking long, but not as bad as 100 years:smallamused: During this time of childhood, as opposed to how Ariel is raised (Drow society is dangerous and demanding of a girl in her particular social position, so its justified. 'Sides, we're talking about High elves now, not drow.) most Elves generally are not taught to do anything too dangerous, like magic. (however most tend to pick up the highly romaticized arts of swordplay and archery before reach true adulthood, and many children tend to have skills more similar to "experts" rather than "commoners" due to their inevitibly extensive education.)

Elf PCs: The base age for a starting character is 35, and he uses the exact same dice as a human uses to determine how many years his class education took. Many Elven youths do tend to become adventurers or simply wandering merchants or explorers of some sort seemingly out of boredom. After all, its not like their parents are in any hurry to die or retire(they still have a good 800+ years in them!) and have the younger generation inheiret the responsibilities of keeping elven society going.:smallbiggrin: Of course, the old outnumber the young, and even Elven Wizards that are over 42 years old have multiple levels (not all of them Core classes or prestige classes, but most dip at least some levels into a spell casting class at some point because of how thier society functions.) The fact that high-level people are not super power-invincible and even with a high AC they can at best survive only a few natural 20s slipping past their defenses and breaking into their delicate elven flesh means the odds of a group of 500+ year old elves (with ****loads of character levels) taking on an army of 1st level warriors paints a much worse picture than what was described in a recent update of OOTSthat sent Haley from being bubbly confident with the upcoming battle to running to cry on Elan's shoulder, because it might be their last night alive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html). This, coupled with other considerations is why elves are in no hurry to try and conquer the world. (See Elven imperialism)

Elven imperialism: This title is misleading, because you see, there is none. Not even a drop. Elves prize freedom and flexibility above all else. Also Elves are generally too were educated (or burned out from all the fighting they engaged in during their adventuring days when they were "young and stupid") to be manipulated by proganda, and there is a very decentralized government besides! Elves also are not willing to risk their lives in long conflicts, and expansionistic warfare tends to be the definition of a long conflict. But most of all: Elven culture is made up of a loosely tied together confederation made up of a collection of elven families that, by themselves, easily make up populations fit for city states. And these families are loyal to nobody but themselves. Elves are highly terroritorial however, and they always seem to know when someone enters their forests. They will attempt to communicate, but generally the best you can negoiate is for them not to harrass you for a period of time just long enough for you to get the hell out of their boundaries. If you mess around too much, lets just say they have enough archery-speced PC classes to make you wish you bought some more Wands of Wind Wall. A lot more.

Rumda
2007-03-11, 07:45 AM
in races of the wild its says that elves grow at the same rate as humans up to about 15 years old and that it takes them until they are 25 to reach full adult size and weight, at that after the age of 25, it is hard to guess the age of an elf, and that the 110 years listed in the age tables is just the ages when most elves leave there villages and become adventurers

Matthew
2007-03-11, 07:53 AM
The fix is really easy, actually: NPCs don't use player character creation rules. They don't have levels. The blacksmith only has maybe 8 hp but can make masterwork items with ease, the cleric can cast resurrection when their deity is happy, not because they happen to have that memorized. And it works pretty darn well, keeping verisimilitude intact.

Yes, that's how it works in (A)D&D 2.x and even more explicitly when Character Points are used. One of the many reasons that my long term campaign has not switched from (A)D&D 2.x to D&D 3.x.

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-11, 01:43 PM
Yes, that's how it works in (A)D&D 2.x and even more explicitly when Character Points are used. One of the many reasons that my long term campaign has not switched from (A)D&D 2.x to D&D 3.x.

What are the major differences between 3rd edition (3.5 is still very much the same as 3.0) and 2nd edition D&D?

Matthew
2007-03-11, 02:02 PM
Major differences? Well, it depends on what version of (A)D&D you are looking at. Most aspects of 3.x have their inception in previous editions, but most especially in the later Player's Option Series.

The main difference, with regard to this example, is that most of the world in (A)D&D was '0 Level', by which was meant they didn't level up or even have a level and were just given appropriate skills. If you wanted to increase an NPC's THAC0 or Hit Points he generally had to acquire levels, but that was a small percentage of the population. Monsters didn't follow any of these rules and were simply advanced by Hit Dice as appropriate (though you could give them levels as an alternate method). By the time of Skills and Powers Character Points could be acquired independently of Experience Points and used to advance Proficiencies (Skills), which had no level cap. So, a 0 Level Blacksmith could conceivably be the greatest Black Smith on the planet. Prior to that, the DM would have just given him an appropriate Skill level. There was virtually no difference for NPCs with this change, but for PCs things suddenly made better sense, as they could gain proficiencies without reference to level.

There are many differences, but when it comes down to it, 2.x and 3.x are a lot closer than people tend to admit.

Zincorium
2007-03-11, 03:49 PM
Essentially, 2nd edition's differences can be summarized as thus (ignoring a lot of detail but getting the point) :

In second edition, the things you were explicitly allowed to do were fewer and more specific, but you were encouraged and occasionally required to go beyond this and make your own rules. House rules weren't something some people used and others didn't, a game where the DM did not take an active and imaginative role in the creation and adaptation of the rules set wasn't a lot of fun to play.

In 3rd, you're allowed to do almost everything, but it's become very highly standardized. A level X character needs Y amount of xp, and has a maximum rank of Z in skills. Very transparent. But the ability to house rule things has become 'don't do it unless you really need to' rather than 'you probably should regardless of whether it's needed or not'.