Melee Rogue - forget the bows and crossbows

[Chubbs Malone]

I just wanted to see if anyone else has played a Rogue where your preferred style of combat is melee dual wield. I'm thinking I'll pick up the Mobile Feat, so I can easily move into melee range, attack twice, and then move out without provoking opportunity attacks.

My group has a super tanky fighter on the front lines, so I'm hoping that means I can just bounce to whatever target he is on for advantage.

Any thoughts or suggestions on what feats I should take, what races to play, tactics, etc?

Thanks!

[EvilAnagram]

Elves and halflings with daggers will always make great thiefs.

[MadBear]

I was also considering making a melee rogue dual wielder.

One thing, I'm considering doing is mixing in a bit of Ranger into the build.

I'll probably go Hunter Ranger5/ Assassin Rogue15

Losing the capstone ability of the rogue assassin hurts, but I think it's worth it.

Ranger 5 nets me:
- 3 combats worth of hunters mark
- extra attack
- better starting HP
- Fighting style
- Collossus Slayer (since you're hopefully hitting 2/3 of the time)

After that I'm gonna drop out of ranger and go assassin.

That'll net me:
- Sneak attack
- expertise
- assassinate

Feats:
- Dual Wielding is a perfect fit and must have (for me anyway)
- mobile

Spells:
- hunters mark
- Long Strider
- ???? (free spot for preferential 1st level spell)
- lesser restoration

I'll probably grab dual wielding at 1st level from human, and then wait till level 9 to grab mobile

The attack sequence is pretty decent since you'll get 3 attacks per turn, usually have hunters mark up for extra damage, and get sneak attack damage.

Damage wise, you'll do dex+1d8 (weapon) + 1d6 (hunter mark)= 13 average damage per hit + sneak attack on the first hit. In addition any time the enemy isn't at full health you'll add in an additional 1d8. Finally, when I get the drop on the enemy, I'll add an additional 1d4 poison damage.

[BW022]

It is certainly a legitimate build. However...

The extra attack using TWF requires you to use your bonus action. Thus, you can't use a dash action as a bonus action in the same round. Your total movement for that will be your movement rate.

Thus, with a 30' movement rate, increased to 40' after taking the mobility feet, you pretty much can't get far enough away from them to prevent them from moving and attacking the next round. If you are 20' away, you'd end the round 20' away. They can still just move up to you and attack. Space may also make this tactic iffy.

If the idea is to move far enough away so that you he can't attack you on his turn... this is probably not going to work unless you have an even higher movement. Wild elf gets a 35' movement. Levels of monk is also a possibility as is gaining longstrider or having someone else cast it on you. However, in most situations that tactic is someone iffy as you likely won't be fighting in large open spaces or they'll just switch to another party member. If you are soloing or in an party with similar avoid melee range tactics -- casters with levitate or warlocks with spider climb, etc. -- then its good.

You also have the issue of needing to get an advantage or having someone in melee with your opponent. You likely need some other tactic to give that. If you have a martial-type willing to act as your melee buddy... sure. But then there isn't much need to move away to avoid an attack. Your opponent will just concentrate on your buddy.

In 3.x, spring attack was of limited use. It typically took some other feature to make it great as, again, most folks couldn't move far enough to avoid your opponent from just moving up to you. Things like reach weapons tended be better as they forces your opponent to take an AoO in order to attack you. Also in 4E, moving dozen mean your opponent can't make multiple attacks against you.

I is a fun and interesting build, but it isn't likely terribly overpowered.

[akaddk]

The problem with TWF rogue is that they lose the benefit of one of their most powerful abilities, Cunning Action. It's nice to get two attacks every turn but at the end of the day, it's not that big a deal considering that the rogue's primary damage source is sneak attack. Cunning Action means that you can Disengage, move, attack, move in one turn. This means you're less likely to be targeted by melee that are caught up with other targets in melee. The only real benefit of TWF is that you have a second opportunity to hit if you miss the first time.

Then again, why even bother with melee at all? This edition highly encourages ranged attacks for rogues over melee. With no flanking, there's no advantage to getting into melee at all since you can still get sneak attack with ranged attacks on any target in melee combat (including your allies :smallbiggrin:).

If, however, you're adamant on going TWF rogue, then I highly recommend getting the Dual Wielder feat. The AC alone makes it worth it but when combined with being able to wield dual rapiers for d8, then at least the dice damage gets into the worthwhile range. Also picking up a level in fighter and getting the TWF style to add ability damage to the OH attack.

I wouldn't bother with Defensive Duelist though as it clashes with Uncanny Dodge which is far superior anyway.

[MadBear]

The problem with TWF rogue is that they lose the benefit of one of their most powerful abilities, Cunning Action. It's nice to get two attacks every turn but at the end of the day, it's not that big a deal considering that the rogue's primary damage source is sneak attack. Cunning Action means that you can Disengage, move, attack, move in one turn. This means you're less likely to be targeted by melee that are caught up with other targets in melee. The only real benefit of TWF is that you have a second opportunity to hit if you miss the first time.

Then again, why even bother with melee at all? This edition highly encourages ranged attacks for rogues over melee. With no flanking, there's no advantage to getting into melee at all since you can still get sneak attack with ranged attacks on any target in melee combat (including your allies :smallbiggrin:).

If, however, you're adamant on going TWF rogue, then I highly recommend getting the Dual Wielder feat. The AC alone makes it worth it but when combined with being able to wield dual rapiers for d8, then at least the dice damage gets into the worthwhile range. Also picking up a level in fighter and getting the TWF style to add ability damage to the OH attack.

I wouldn't bother with Defensive Duelist though as it clashes with Uncanny Dodge which is far superior anyway.

To be fair, they did mention picking up mobile, so that they could move, attack, attack, move. Mobile allows them to not have to worry about opportunity attacks so long as they took a swing at the guy. the 10ft movement also helps.

[Tessman the 2nd]

I was also going Rogue
Half-Orc
Maximise Strength
Grappler Feat
Tavern Brawler
1 level monk

Punch, Grab then Shank people

[akaddk]

To be fair, they did mention picking up mobile, so that they could move, attack, attack, move. Mobile allows them to not have to worry about opportunity attacks so long as they took a swing at the guy. the 10ft movement also helps.

Yeah, but it still makes Cunning Action unused and redundant.

[MadBear]

Yeah, but it still makes Cunning Action unused and redundant.

meh, there are times where it would come up, which is fine by me. I agree that strait rogue doesn't get a huge boon out of twf, which is why I suggested a dip in ranger, to add modifier to each hit. 3 hits with with ability modifier + sneak attack just equals gravy. Especially when you can disengage from selected foe each turn.

[TheOOB]

As far as melee rogues go. As far as I'm concerned, unless you specifically have something you're using your off-hand for, every melee rogue should go shortsword/shortsword instead of rapier. Here's the thing, you're not "losing" anything, least of all your cunning action, because you don't *have* you use your offhand attack. If you run up to a foe, make your first attack, and get your sneak attack, then use your cunning action to disengage, but if you miss, in addition to the cunning action options you have, you can attempt another attack for your sneak attack. Giving you a second chance at sneak attack is worth losing 1 average damage on your attack when you lose nothing else for it.

[akaddk]

Giving you a second chance at sneak attack is worth losing 1 average damage on your attack when you lose nothing else for it.

How does using a rapier change that? You can sneak attack with a rapier in your offhand just as well as in your main hand. The only limitation is that you need the Dual Wielder feat in order to use non-light weapons in both hands.

[Chubbs Malone]

My general idea and vision is to dart into combat and slash/stab the target my Fighter is on, and then dart back out, unscathed. I felt picking up Mobile would hopefully make this easy to accomplish.

My turn would look something like this as a Variant Human with Mobile Feat. (at level 3):
1. Move up to the target my Fighter is assaulting.
2. Attack once with my main hand. If I hit I get my Attack + Sneak Attack damage.
3. Dash, increasing my total movement speed on the turn to 80. So even if I used say 20 feet to get into melee, I still have 60 feet to move away.

The obvious drawback is "well, what if you don't hit on that first attack?". The simple answer; you use your bonus action to attack with the off-hand and hopefully trigger sneak attack, and then you just move as far away as possible. I think this would still be effective as you can get far enough away where NPCs will be triggering opportunity attacks from the Fighter if they try and chase you.

Some of the draw backs I see immediately:
1. You are tethered to your Fighter to ensure Sneak Attack damage.
2. Your risk of taking damage increases exponentially.
3. Encounters with multiple NPCs could overwhelm you quickly and negate the benefits of Mobile.

Some benefits:
1. You are not limited by Stealth Checks at all, the build does not require them.
2. You are always guaranteed 2 chances at triggering Sneak Attack each turn, as long as you attack NPCs near your party. (i.e. if you fail your Stealth Check while using a ranged wpn, you only get 1 shot)
3. You gain Advantage when your allies knock NPCs prone.
4. You now reap the benefits of the many melee buffs provided by other classes.

[MustacheFart]

If you want to be the "In and Out" melee rogue, I would suggest going assassin and multi-classing into Way of the Shadow Monk. If you really want to get sick then add in 2 levels of warlock for Devil's sight.

Enter combat, move to enemy or teleport up to 60' to a shadow near enemy. Open up a can on him which, if you went before the enemy in the 1ST ROUND of the encounter or surprise him, you automatically crit via assassinate. Then simply use remaining form of movement to move away. After the first round, cast darkness on your enemies, teleport inside, and hack away while you can see them but they can't see you. I'm not sure if there is a way to cast this first round and still be able to move & attack.

Also you can either pick Half Orc for the extra crit die to combo with assassinate or go Wood Elf and be able to also hide in natural phenomena (snow, rain, etc) as well as boost two key stats.

Another note: with the two warlock levels you can either choose pact of chain (gain a really badass familiar such as the invisible flying TINY Imp), pact of tome (be able to find and use all manner of ritual spells plus other stuff), or pact of blade (Summon a magic weapon or turn a magic weapon into your pact weapon that can be summoned).

If you go pact of the blade and read the Warlock invocation requirements as character level rather than warlock level (up for debate currently) then there is a nice invocation that lets you attack twice with a pact weapon when making the attack action. There's your two attacks without using a bonus action.

EDIT: I've already got a "spy" undercover as a villager in the Horde of the Dragon Queen module I'll be playing in this weekend. If my main character should die he'll teleport into action. :)

[hymer]

Open up a can on him which, if you went before the enemy in the encounter or surprise him, you automatically crit via assassinate.

Nitpick: You have advantage /thus activating sneak attack) against those who have not had turn in the fight yet. Hits scored on surprised people are automatically crits, so that one only works in the first round.

[MustacheFart]

Nitpick: You have advantage /thus activating sneak attack) against those who have not had turn in the fight yet. Hits scored on surprised people are automatically crits, so that one only works in the first round.

Yes, I know it only works in the first round (unless you can find another way to surprise them that your dm accepts) which is why I stated if you go before the enemy in the encounter. I meant if you go before him on round 1. I should've worded that a bit better.

[Person_Man]

In my opinion, you don't need to choose between ranged and melee, as you did in previous editions.

You can draw a weapon as a free action. So you can easily switch between range and melee as needed. Plus daggers are finesse/light/thrown weapons. So you can use daggers + TWF in melee or close range as needed.

This is really important for Stealth->ambushes, because you can attack your enemy from afar and get a free Sneak Attack against them before they can act. Its super effective with the Assassin subclass, because it counts as a crit, and Sneak Attack dice are doubled.

Having said that, if you are committed to being a melee oriented Rogue, I would suggest taking Polearm Master, riding a mount, and convincing an ally to be a Battlemaster Fighter.

Sneak Attack states: "Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon. You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll."

Riding a Mount provides a built in, always on trigger for Sneak Attack (assuming that you don't have disadvantage). Ideally this would be an ally that's a Wildshaped Druid, a Ranger's Animal Companion, or an Animated creature. But you can also just buy a pack of trained dogs, and us the ones that you're not riding as guard dogs.

Sneak Attack can be used once per turn. So you can use Sneak Attack on your turn with your normal attack. An enemy is bound to move adjacent to you during its turn, which provokes an Opportunity Attack from Polearm Master, which gives you a second Sneak Attack. Then the Battlemaster Fighter can use a maneuver (giving up one of his attacks) during his turn to grant you a third Sneak Attack. (The Battlemaster Fighter should also give you an extra attack during the first round of an Ambush, especially if you're an Assassin Rogue).

[hymer]

taking Polearm Master

Eh? I don't get that part. Care to elaborate?

[MustacheFart]

Eh? I don't get that part. Care to elaborate?

Polearm Master states that as long as you're holding one of the specified weapons enemies provoke AoO's from you if they enter your reach.

[hymer]

Polearm Master states that as long as you're holding one of the specified weapons enemies provoke AoO's from you if they enter your reach.

So you figure the language on sneak attack ('once per turn') should be read as 'once per round' rather than 'once per your turn', so you can sneak attack with a light finesse weapon in one hand while holding a staff in the other? You'd need a feat for Dual Wielder as well. I don't know, getting an extra chance to deliver a sneak attack as a reaction (AoO) rather than a minor action (dual short swords) isn't that huge a difference. You should be able to control the engagement while mounted. But you could combine the two, I guess.

Edit: Oh, I see, it's being interpreted as being 'once per anyone's turn', of course.

[Human Paragon 3]

A nice idea, but you can't get 3 sneak attacks for turn no matter how many battle master buddies you have. Both the battlemaster ability and the AoO triggered by pole arm master require your reaction, and everyone only gets 1 reaction per round.

That's assuming your DM lets your mount count as an ally for the purpose of sneak attack in the first place.

[Sartharina]

I find the idea of using a Polearm feat to make OAs with something other than the wielded polearm to be absolutely absurd. "Because I'm holding a stick, I can stab anyone who gets close to me with this dagger!"

But sneak Attack 1/turn isn't a problem.

[MustacheFart]

I find the idea of using a Polearm feat to make OAs with something other than the wielded polearm to be absolutely absurd. "Because I'm holding a stick, I can stab anyone who gets close to me with this dagger!"

But sneak Attack 1/turn isn't a problem.

I totally agree. It's 100% clear that the RAI is that you perform the AoO with your polearm. It's basically a more tactical method of setting a spear against a charge (though ironically, the 3.5 that had such an ability isn't included in the list). My other gripe with that feat is that a pike is listed for the second part but not the first. Why not include it? It's clearly a typo/editing issue but still annoying.

[Chubbs Malone]

In my opinion, you don't need to choose between ranged and melee, as you did in previous editions.

You can draw a weapon as a free action. So you can easily switch between range and melee as needed. Plus daggers are finesse/light/thrown weapons. So you can use daggers + TWF in melee or close range as needed.

This is really important for Stealth->ambushes, because you can attack your enemy from afar and get a free Sneak Attack against them before they can act. Its super effective with the Assassin subclass, because it counts as a crit, and Sneak Attack dice are doubled.

Having said that, if you are committed to being a melee oriented Rogue, I would suggest taking Polearm Master, riding a mount, and convincing an ally to be a Battlemaster Fighter.

Sneak Attack states: "Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon. You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll."

Riding a Mount provides a built in, always on trigger for Sneak Attack (assuming that you don't have disadvantage). Ideally this would be an ally that's a Wildshaped Druid, a Ranger's Animal Companion, or an Animated creature. But you can also just buy a pack of trained dogs, and us the ones that you're not riding as guard dogs.

Sneak Attack can be used once per turn. So you can use Sneak Attack on your turn with your normal attack. An enemy is bound to move adjacent to you during its turn, which provokes an Opportunity Attack from Polearm Master, which gives you a second Sneak Attack. Then the Battlemaster Fighter can use a maneuver (giving up one of his attacks) during his turn to grant you a third Sneak Attack. (The Battlemaster Fighter should also give you an extra attack during the first round of an Ambush, especially if you're an Assassin Rogue).

A Rogue riding a mount into combat with polearm master? lol

[Soras Teva Gee]

I find the idea of using a Polearm feat to make OAs with something other than the wielded polearm to be absolutely absurd. "Because I'm holding a stick, I can stab anyone who gets close to me with this dagger!"

But sneak Attack 1/turn isn't a problem.

RAW used in counter inuitive ways to do things... shocking and new.

However someone should check the exact wording for what the relevant weapons are and if you have to be using them with two hands or just holding them. Because if you are have to be actually wielding it with two hands while nominally drawing a weapon is free as intereacting with an object the Basic rules on pg 70 have this condition attached:


The DM might require you to use an action for any of these activities when it needs special care or when it presents an unusual obstacle. For instance, the DM could reasonably expect you to use an action to open a stuck door or turn a crank to lower a drawbridge.

So the right to draw a single weapon is not absolute. Ergo if you have to be actually using the polearm they are free to say that no you can't use your skill to trigger AoO, let go with one hand, and yoink out your dagger to then take an AoO and stab them.

Or you might just cancel the feat entirely.