PDA

View Full Version : What to do about my bad DM



Aquaseafoam
2007-03-08, 04:19 AM
Really, theres nothing worse than a bad DM. A bad player can make everyone cringe, but a good DM can take in game steps to counteract such a nuisance. A friend of mine has started up a campaign, and were about 6 sessions into it. At first I thought he was merely an inexperienced DM, but now he has taken some actions which can only be interpreted as downright boopholery.

Alright, to give some background on the campaign. A ship has crashed into our lovely fantasy world, and now there are high tech monsters running about trying to find the survivors of said ship. This translates into enemies with some really powerful, high damage abilities. Since we can simply loot the weaponry from the fallen enemies, this hasn't been much of a problem, though it has resulted in high casualties.

The boopholery started after my second character, a Sorcerer, my first being a Warblade, bit the dust. The survivors of the crashed ship were capturing us for reasons unknown. The DM first began to get angry after one of our characters killed several of the ships crew members in resisting capture. It was after this that my Elan Psion was introduced as a unconscious captive of the crew.

So, when the crew revived my character form his unconscious state, I started manifesting powers, all purely defensive in nature. (Levitate and Inertial Armor) The DM then had the 8 or so armed crew in the room firing at me with 4d6 DMG rifles. Now put yourself in his situation, he is a frail psion with low hp, he has been captured by creatures that do not speak any language he understands wielding technology that would seem terrifying to such a technologically unadvanced culture. So when they didnt stop firing, I let loose an Energy burst and wiped every alien in the room. This apparently wrecked most of the plot.

The DM was furious, and fined everyone in the party 2000 xp while also alignment shifting me to Chaotic Evil. Then he invented a way to kill my Psion. That was the end of that session, but the punishments didn't end there. He made us take a quiz on some rules from a rulebook no one in the party owned and threatened to fine everyone in the party 1000 xp for every person that got it wrong, claiming we had cheated by making some small mistakes beforehand. He's also instituted a 100 xp fine for the whole party if one of us annoys him, and he went through our equipment to make sure we hadn't cheated on equipment purchases, threatening further xp penalties. Only two members of the party, myself included, have more than a few months of DnD under our belts and I think such things could be destructive to their future interest in this great game.

Man it felt good to get that out. Ranting aside, what can be done about my bad DM. Im thinking of just flat out quitting the campaign, but hes still my friend. Anyone who has dealt with a similar problem, please chime in. should I let him now how hes ticking off everyone in the party or should I just quit?

Roderick_BR
2007-03-08, 04:28 AM
Tell him he shold go slow on the PC killing, unless the story IS about party kill.
And tell him he can't keep giving xp penalty for silly reasons.
If all fails, tell him you are not playing with him anymore. Find another DM.

Wippit Guud
2007-03-08, 04:30 AM
Step 1: Buy this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/CaledfwlchClose.gif/180px-CaledfwlchClose.gif


Step 2: Introduce step 1 to DM.

Thomas
2007-03-08, 04:32 AM
No plot will survive contact with the players, but every adventure and plotline has to. That's inexperienced and/or bad DMing (especially considering your character was attacked with lethal force and you defeated the enemies - that's what you're supposed to do in D&D).

The quizzing, threatening, and XP fining is completely out of line. Why are you guys letting this person be a DM? Tell him (as a group) he's not one anymore, and have someone else do it. Heck, not playing has to be better than playing with this guy.

Ashes
2007-03-08, 04:32 AM
Run to the hills!

Seriously, that has got to be one of the worst DM-stories on this board, since LankyBugger's gun nut. I wouldn't keep playing that campaign.

Maxymiuk
2007-03-08, 04:33 AM
Tell him he's being a douche (I'd suggest coaching it in diplomatic language). I mean, a quiz on the rules? What the hell?

The credo of the GM is to make sure that everyone is having fun. That overrides any other rule or guideline. You might want to let him know that as well.

If that doesn't work, vote with your feet.

The Orange Zergling
2007-03-08, 04:33 AM
At this point I'd say "find a new DM".

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-08, 04:35 AM
Yeah. Why are you playing with this guy, again?

Aquaseafoam
2007-03-08, 04:50 AM
Eh, he's my friend, even if he is behaving like a jerk. I've decided to quit the campaign, theres no call for such behavior. Especially since he brought all that upon himself. The real problem lies in that my regular, who is probably the best DM I've ever had, is a college professor with a family and can't devote very much time to his campaign. My friends campaign is the only one I know besides my main that I can play at the moment.

daggaz
2007-03-08, 04:50 AM
Worst. DM. Evah.

Hehehe, you should get him involved in this thread. We want a piece of that one, he's like, a brand new monster type!

Logic
2007-03-08, 05:01 AM
Tell him he shold go slow on the PC killing, unless the story IS about party kill.
And tell him he can't keep giving xp penalty for silly reasons.
If all fails, tell him you are not playing with him anymore. Find another DM.

Step 1: Buy this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/CaledfwlchClose.gif/180px-CaledfwlchClose.gif
Step 2: Introduce step 1 to DM.

No plot will survive contact with the players, but every adventure and plotline has to. That's inexperienced and/or bad DMing (especially considering your character was attacked with lethal force and you defeated the enemies - that's what you're supposed to do in D&D).

The quizzing, threatening, and XP fining is completely out of line. Why are you guys letting this person be a DM? Tell him (as a group) he's not one anymore, and have someone else do it. Heck, not playing has to be better than playing with this guy.
These guys said everything that needed to be said. I don't think I have ever heard of a worse DM. Do DMs this bad even exist? I thought they were a myth!

Name_Here
2007-03-08, 06:42 AM
First off talk to him. Just sit down and tell him what you were thinking when you blasted the survivors. From the DMs point of view you were acting like an idiot for the sole purpose of disrupting his plot. I mean you were a physically weak psion who was low on hp why on earth wouldn't you surrender?

All I'm saying is that you need to see things from his perspective. He put allot of energy into this campaign and it might seem to him that you were just being horribly unreasonable and he just wanted to lash out at you. DMs can be just as childish and prone to misperseptions as the players and coming to him and talking it out is a good way to get started on getting him to mature as a DM.

Thomas
2007-03-08, 06:46 AM
I mean you were a physically weak psion who was low on hp why on earth wouldn't you surrender?

Uh. Because he obviously was tough enough to take the attacks and still kill them all? Why would he surrender?

And perspective has nothing to do with it. The XP penalties and other *******ry are just that - *******ry.

Maryring
2007-03-08, 06:53 AM
Find a game here on GiantITP instead. Or be the DM yourself. DMing ain't easy, but the reaction of your friend is too much and should NOT be tolerated. You should try speaking with him first though.

Darrin
2007-03-08, 07:14 AM
First off talk to him. Just sit down and tell him what you were thinking when you blasted the survivors.


This won't work. It's pretty obvious that this DM is beyond listening to reason. The DM is indulging in some kind of personal sci-fi wish-fulfillment thing, and the players are there merely to stroke his ego and bask in the warm glow of his creative genius.

Any attempt to say anything other than "I was wrong, you were right" would most likely be seen as a challenge to his authority and an attempt by a player to assert power over "his" plot.

Best option is to walk away, find another DM or start another group.

Sergeantbrother
2007-03-08, 07:28 AM
All I'm saying is that you need to see things from his perspective. He put allot of energy into this campaign and it might seem to him that you were just being horribly unreasonable and he just wanted to lash out at you. DMs can be just as childish and prone to misperseptions as the players and coming to him and talking it out is a good way to get started on getting him to mature as a DM.

I have all of the sympathy in the world for DM's whose plots get messed up because players do unexpected things - it has happened to me on numerous occations. But that's just part of being a DM and if you can't deal with it you shouldn't be a DM. If the DM said something along the lines of "Oh no, I wasn't expecting that, lets call it a game for tonight so I can come up with some new plans." that would have been perfectly alright.

Taking away experience like he did is just boopinine. As is changing somebody's alignment to Chaotic Evil because he defended himself. It looks like he's on an ego trip, to such a degree that I am not sure if he's salvagable as a DM anytime in the near future.

Maybe you could talk to the other players about it and see what they think. They probably share some of your distress over the situation. Maybe if you and the other players confronted him and layed down the law then he just might be able to change his ways.

Tobrian
2007-03-08, 07:39 AM
(snip) The boopholery started after my second character, a Sorcerer, my first being a Warblade, bit the dust. The survivors of the crashed ship were capturing us for reasons unknown. The DM first began to get angry after one of our characters killed several of the ships crew members in resisting capture. It was after this that my Elan Psion was introduced as a unconscious captive of the crew.

Great, an inexperienced GM trying to force an outcome... and the "forced capture" scenario is one that always gets players angry. I had t o learn that myself, from both sides of the game master's screen.

What does he expect? Your characters have every right to defend themselves. If it is really so vital to the plot that they get captured, he could have called for a brief break and politely asked you, the players, if you could play along... a bit of fudging for the sake of moving the plot and having fun is always allowed... but of course if he basically asks you to let your characters surrender, he is honorbound as a GM to promise you that it isn't a trap, meaning that your characters won't get automatically killed just because they surrendered or end up in a situation where they're helpless to do anything.


So, when the crew revived my character form his unconscious state, I started manifesting powers, all purely defensive in nature. (Levitate and Inertial Armor) The DM then had the 8 or so armed crew in the room firing at me with 4d6 DMG rifles. Now put yourself in his situation, he is a frail psion with low hp, he has been captured by creatures that do not speak any language he understands wielding technology that would seem terrifying to such a technologically unadvanced culture. So when they didnt stop firing, I let loose an Energy burst and wiped every alien in the room. This apparently wrecked most of the plot.

Then it's a stupid RAILROADING plot. A gamemaster should always be flexible enough to adjust a plot to his players' actions. I myself had the misfortune to play under one who was unable or unwilling to do so, once, and it sucked.

I mean I can't even figure out what this guy wants. What is the point, where is he going with this, plotwise? Is this just an immature ego trip, "MWAHAHA, all your characters are in my powers!" stuff?

There's a world of difference between jerk players trying to derail a plot just because they can, and normal players growing dissatisfied with a heavyhanded railroading plot. When players start to get annoyed and the GM won't take the hints, many players (me included, I'm ashamed to say) start to let their characters do suicidal things or become uncooperative. THat should be a warning sign to any responsible game master.

Let me recap: He do not want your characters to fight these aliens, but he doesn't provide any means to communicate with them either?


The DM was furious, and fined everyone in the party 2000 xp while also alignment shifting me to Chaotic Evil. Then he invented a way to kill my Psion.

He fined your characters for not going along with his idiot plot*? So basically your GM is metagaming, punishing the characters out-of-character because he is pissed off at you the players? He needs to get off that high horse fast. THe glimpses at his personality that I get here are making me furious. He's like a spoiled child bullying everyone.

*) Holodecks, Jedi, Incrediboy, and the idiot plot (http://www.terrania.us/journal/2005/01/holodecks-jedi-incrediboy-and-idiot.html)


That was the end of that session, but the punishments didn't end there. He made us take a quiz on some rules from a rulebook no one in the party owned and threatened to fine everyone in the party 1000 xp for every person that got it wrong, claiming we had cheated by making some small mistakes beforehand. He's also instituted a 100 xp fine for the whole party if one of us annoys him, and he went through our equipment to make sure we hadn't cheated on equipment purchases, threatening further xp penalties. Only two members of the party, myself included, have more than a few months of DnD under our belts and I think such things could be destructive to their future interest in this great game.

Is this guy an idiot, a psycho, or just really in need of therapy? I'm not kidding. He seems to fancy himself an autocrat, and you his subjects that must obey.

Tell him he can take his rulebooks and stick them where the sun does not shine. Tell him he does not own your characters, and you can always start your own group without him.

Sounds like he has read too much Knights of the Dinner Table without realizing that the comic is a satire on how NOT to roleplay.


First off talk to him. Just sit down and tell him what you were thinking when you blasted the survivors. From the DMs point of view you were acting like an idiot for the sole purpose of disrupting his plot. I mean you were a physically weak psion who was low on hp why on earth wouldn't you surrender?

Um, from what Aquaseafoam told us, the Psion was already a prisoner. Basically the aliens captured him, so obviously they wanted him alive, but when he woke up and started manifesting purely defensive powers, they tried to gun him down without even asking him to surrender first... that's pretty idiotic. No attempt to simply fill the prison with sleepgas or whatever, just BLAM BLAM BLAM. It's the sound of an insecure GM stomping his foot.

And besides either these aliens know about psychic powers then they should be able to block them (i.e. a psychic static field, or psi-suppression drug), or they've never seen psi powers before, in that case how did they even recognize what was going on? Sounds like we got a bad case of OMNISCIENT NPC on top of a railroad plot.


Ranting aside, what can be done about my bad DM. Im thinking of just flat out quitting the campaign, but hes still my friend. Anyone who has dealt with a similar problem, please chime in. should I let him now how hes ticking off everyone in the party or should I just quit?

QUIT NOW. And tell the other players why you do.
Honestly, I have quit groups for less. This is.... beyond ridiculous.

How old is he? Is he one of those idiots who thinks roleplaying games are all about giving the gamemaster a free ego trip? If you catch a gamemaster playing against the group, leave. You don't need to waste your time on a game that isn't fun and is destructive to your mood and friendship.

Tell him your not having fun, and why. And if he gets pissed off, ask him to take a deep breath and imagine that he was a player in his own group. Ask him what his reaction would be if a character of his own had been treated like that.

If he really wants to railroad outcomes and control all your characters's actions for the sake of his sacred plot, ask him why doesn't he just spare your suspense and simply narrate to you what happens, and then you can all go home and do something more worthwhile. Because he clearly hasn't understood that roleplaying is supposed to be a collaboration between players and game master for mutual fun.

I'm not sure if you should talk and coordinate with the other players while he is present, to his face, or "behind his back" to spare him embarrassment. Both options are awkward, but frankly at this point, the campaign is already dead.

Logos7
2007-03-08, 07:48 AM
Thanks for giving me a good reason why i don't ever dock xp

And as understandible as the guys position may be , doesn't change the fact he's being a douche
Logos

Dausuul
2007-03-08, 07:49 AM
These guys said everything that needed to be said. I don't think I have ever heard of a worse DM. Do DMs this bad even exist? I thought they were a myth!

No, no they're not. I know whereof I speak. Wish I didn't, but there you are.

And I agree with the others--this game is beyond salvaging. I'd tell you to quit if you hadn't already announced your intention to do just that.

Logic
2007-03-08, 08:30 AM
Actually, the funniest thing to do, is ask for another game. Then, start making demands of him. Or, just plain walk out in hte middle of the session for an extended period of time, and return demanding that your simple sidequest be followed (you talked to a barber or something...)
Refuse to dock the character's XP. Just sit there when he tells you you lost XP. Be DEFIANT, but not a jerk about it. Maybe he will get it. If not, slap him in the face, and tell him what an idiot jerk he is being.
Seriously, try to have as much fun at his expense. That is what he was trying to do to you it seems.

hewhosaysfish
2007-03-08, 08:44 AM
Actually, the funniest thing to do, is ask for another game. Then, start making demands of him. Or, just plain walk out in hte middle of the session for an extended period of time, and return demanding that your simple sidequest be followed (you talked to a barber or something...)
Refuse to dock the character's XP. Just sit there when he tells you you lost XP. Be DEFIANT, but not a jerk about it. Maybe he will get it. If not, slap him in the face, and tell him what an idiot jerk he is being.
Seriously, try to have as much fun at his expense. That is what he was trying to do to you it seems.

If the DM is getting wound up and launching punitive measures against reasonable but unexpected behaviour, can you imagine how he will react to someone deliberately trying to be as much of an asshat as possible?
The two of them will end up schreeching and name-calling, someone will pull somone else's hair and then their mothers will come in to see what their noise is and they'll send the whole group to their rooms.
What? They're not six years old?
Myabe throwing a tantrum isn't the right way to deal with this then...

Tormsskull
2007-03-08, 08:53 AM
Its hard to give suggestions on how to deal with a DM when I don't know the full scope of things, but it seems like your group has a strange party dynamic going on.

Is your DM available to post his side of the story? It might be interesting to see what his reasons were for leveling such xp penalties & his take on how you behaved during the session in question.

Tobrian
2007-03-08, 08:58 AM
Seriously, try to have as much fun at his expense. That is what he was trying to do to you it seems.

Well, while this approach can be satisfying in a revenge-y sort of way, I doubt it'll help any. It'll only make the GM even more angry and make him feel the martyr who's having to put up with "stupid" players. Same with loudly blaming him for being a jerk in front of the rest of the group; when people feel backed into a corner, one against many, they only lash out even more.

@ Aquaseafoam:
If there's any indication that this GM can still take criticism rationally, I'd give both sides a chance to come clean and openly say what they didn't like about the scenario, and why, and make suggestions how or if the game can still be saved.

But if he can't but is still willing to talk, there's a little trick you can employ:
step 1) Ask someone who isn't involved in the game (but is a roleplayer and a friend) to be the moderator, the neutral party, who can declare a time-out in case things get out of hand.
step 2) When both sides' grievances are being discussed, each of you should try to argue the other guy's side: Your friend the GM should try to imagine he was playing your character and defend its actions, and you should argue the GM's side and try to defend his actions. And then ask each other if you correctly guessed each other's motivations.
step 3) Being a jerk while arguing the other guy's side won't be tolerated (i.e. if your GM tries to use this little "roleplaying" exercise to get back at you by saying "The psion was being an idiot and the GM was totally right to punish me" he's not mature enough for this).


Otherwise a group discussion can devolve into each side stubbornly trying to vindicate their actions, which doesn't help solve anything. A GM has to learn that sometimes a plot that looks like the best thing since sliced bread to him is actually crap when viewed from a player's perspective. The plot isn't supposed to make the NPCs all-powerful at the expense of the PCs.

PnP Fan
2007-03-08, 09:03 AM
I concur with Logic (hey . .. I like the sound of that. ..;-)
Before you ditch the game completely, stand up to this jerk. When he "tests" you, don't take the test, ask him why you have to take tests in your spare time away from school/work. When he docks you xp for "irritating him" don't mark it off. Tell him your going to dock him an NPC for irritating you. When he goes on one of his little tirades, question him. Ask him why, and how that contributes to the fun of the game. Next time you run into aliens who refuse to talk to you, and only give you the option to defend yourself, ask him what his pre-conceived solution was. Maybe he's expecting a Speak Language type of spell, followed by diplomacy. Are these behaviors over several sessions, or were they all at once? Could be that he had a REAAAALY bad day at work or something if it all came at once.
This guy may be your friend, but it also sounds like he's either got some insecurities, or for some reason feels "empowered" to bully people from behind the screen. Weird. If you can't correct his insanity, I would walk out of the game the next time he does some of this bull. Maybe he'll get the message.

BlueWizard
2007-03-08, 09:08 AM
Sounds like someone else in the group should be DM. You can't get attached to your NPCs. The game is about the PCs and your story needs to work around them... though I am a dangerous DM, and do kill players, but I try to make it fair.

Logic
2007-03-08, 09:12 AM
I try to be as fair a DM as possible. But, if the group becomes less than 4 players, I become overly nice. Treasure and XP abound for next to nothing.
If characters live past 17th level without a death, I tell the players in advance I plan to try to kill them using all that would be a fair challenge, but allowing for no mistakes on their part. I have never let more than half the group be unhappy in my experiences as DM.

Name_Here
2007-03-08, 09:18 AM
I have all of the sympathy in the world for DM's whose plots get messed up because players do unexpected things - it has happened to me on numerous occations. But that's just part of being a DM and if you can't deal with it you shouldn't be a DM. If the DM said something along the lines of "Oh no, I wasn't expecting that, lets call it a game for tonight so I can come up with some new plans." that would have been perfectly alright.
Yes and that is the mark of an experienced GM one who can see when their plan isn't going well and who can see when he can wing it and when he needs time to plan. Obviously this guy is not among their number. I think that every DM has at least one time that they look back on where they just royally and completely booped up. It's part of the learning curve everybody goes through.

Taking away experience like he did is just boopinine. As is changing somebody's alignment to Chaotic Evil because he defended himself. It looks like he's on an ego trip, to such a degree that I am not sure if he's salvagable as a DM anytime in the near future.
I'm not saying that the DM wasn't completly and totally out of line in his idiotic rulings but Pencils still have erasers correct? The exp amount and alignment can be changed in seconds and if the DM is willing to eat a little crow the charecter can come back just as easily. Their friendship however would need a great deal more effort to revive.

Maybe you could talk to the other players about it and see what they think. They probably share some of your distress over the situation. Maybe if you and the other players confronted him and layed down the law then he just might be able to change his ways.
I think this kind of situation is best handled 1 on 1. If the DM thinks that everybody is ganging up against him he is likely to just go on the defensive and refuse to listen to any of the points about how he screwed up.

Variable Arcana
2007-03-08, 09:22 AM
Try to keep focussed on your core problem: You've got a group of friends who enjoy roleplaying, and would like to play more frequently, though your experienced DM can't expand his playing time.

Setting up a game with one of you running it is a perfectly good solution -- but it doesn't appear to have worked for you -- through a combination of inexperience and immaturity (though you don't necessarily have to mention the last part...).

You might try rotating DMs and running small, self-contained dungeon crawls rather than sprawling campaigns. That way, you can both figure out which of your friends are actually better suited for DMing (both good at it and enjoying it -- even the DM needs to have fun!) and get experience with the easier parts of DMing before trying to construct a world and a robust plot.

BlueWizard
2007-03-08, 09:22 AM
Aw just create your own game and DM. Sounds like this guy just wants to railroad you to do what he wants.

Name_Here
2007-03-08, 09:25 AM
This won't work. It's pretty obvious that this DM is beyond listening to reason. The DM is indulging in some kind of personal sci-fi wish-fulfillment thing, and the players are there merely to stroke his ego and bask in the warm glow of his creative genius.
Which is exactly why Foam needs to talk to him. The DM needs to realize that if he wants to tell a story he needs to sit down at a computer and start writing one because the players will ruin his story at every turn. It's a rough lesson to learn but nothing said makes me think that it's one that the DM can't learn. He made the classic mistake of trying to force a charecter to do what he wanted instead of making the player want to do what he wanted.

Any attempt to say anything other than "I was wrong, you were right" would most likely be seen as a challenge to his authority and an attempt by a player to assert power over "his" plot.
That may be but the other options are equally unsatisfactory. I mean just leaving the group puts the friendship in jepordy and continuing to play the game let's him believe that he can just walk over his players because they are the PCs and he is the DM.
Talking to him is the only option that allows the game to continue and get better.

Kaerou
2007-03-08, 09:40 AM
Woah sounds like a real jerk..

Quizzes? hahaha.. fines?

What does he think he is? a teacher? A traffic warden?

Tell him to STFU, that you're playing a game and he's acting immature and stupid. Tell him you would rather squeeze lemons in your eyes than 'play' in his game. Then offer to DM and show him how the 'real game' is run.

Hahaha.. shooting at you then fining XP and acting like a jerk when you like.. defended yourself. What a *best not say on this board*

pestilenceawaits
2007-03-08, 09:47 AM
Wow I feel so sorry for you I have had bad adventures before and newbie DMs but they never did anything like that. This guy sounds like he needs a reality check. If talking to him won't work and nobody is having fun boot him from the group let him run his little autocracy by himself it sounds like he just wants to make up stories not run games.

Ranis
2007-03-08, 10:13 AM
The only thing that really upsets me about this is that it's experiences like these that deter people from the great experience that is D&D. You really should talk to the other players and explain to them that this is not what REAL D&D is like, and that he really is the bad DM that he is.

Gather your other players and either get a new DM or run a game yourself, and leave that tard out of things.

ravenkith
2007-03-08, 10:15 AM
This sounds like a DM who doesn't know what he's doing.

How much experience has this guy had in the big chair before?

Has he even played in campaigns before?

Has he played any D&D computer rpgs?

I'm willing to bet his experience as a DM is limited (1st or 2nd time in the big chair), he's played in maybe one or two tabletop games, and the rest of his experience comes from MMOs and CRPGs.

I've been DMing for close to 6 years now, and have been playing for over 14. There are certain conclusions I have reached.

1. XP that has been previously awarded should not be docked. There are several ways it can be reduced, but arbitrary docking of earned experience points is bad mojo.
Legitemate reduction of XP:
- As part of casting a spell
- As part of creating an item
- As part of dying and being resurrected/reincarnated
- As part of the effects of level loss (from level drain/negative levels)

Otherwise, once you've got it, you've got it, in my book.

2. Always, always always have 2 or three backup plots, so that if your main one goes south, you can move on to the next.

It's this simple: The players will surprise you and Murphy's law is in full effect.

If you can't adapt on the fly, you aren't ready to be a DM.

Something to remember - Rule #1 when it comes to bad guys:
If the players beat the main bad guy in session 1, it wasn't the main bad guy: there was someone behind him pulling the strings all along...

3. If you want your players to respond to a situation with other than lethal force, especially in D&D, you have to give them a reason to do so.

You do not, under any circumstances, attack them with lethal force, as they are definitely going to respond in kind. It's frickin' human nature.

It's even worse to do so with overwhelming lethal force, because the kind of people who play these games tend to like blatant acts of heroism, and thanks to the Alamo, dying for a cause has gotten a good rep (see also: Braveheart).

Haven't these 'superior' aliens ever heard of stun settings?

One simple "Ok, as you begin to cast, one of the guards notices the visual effects of your powers, and rather than take any chances, pulls the trigger on his weapon. You are bathed in a strange blue white light and you can feel yourself start to go light-headed: make a fortitude save DC 20, please, or fall asleep." Could have really changed the outcome of this situation.

Giving the bad guys non-lethal options, after demonstrating their ability to be lethal, instantly gives them a more approachable character than someone who is all-death, all the time.

It shows that they're not just murderous psycopaths, and there might be more to them than meets the eye...

4. Despite what some may think, the DM has to have a certain amount of DM vs. the players mentality. But he also has to know that while he might win a few battles, and get to show off some cool ideas, story elements, and such, ultimately, he has to lose the war.

The PCs are the heroes of the story - eventually, they have to win (unless you're playing a horror game or paranoia), because that's one of the rules of sci-fi/fantasy: The good guys always win in the end, no matter how bad the situation gets in the meantime. Look at Star Wars (4-6) - the situation for the rebels goes from bad to worse over the three story arc, but eventually the main characters (Han, Luke, R2D2 and Leia) with help from NPCs (Chewie (Cohort), C-3PO (Cohort), Lando (NPC), etc.) pull it out.

(As a side note, Luke's player was clearly absent for the last couple of sessions as the group began the Endor assault, and so ended up taking part in a side quest so as to close the campaign out for the player - the Ewoks were clearly meant as fluff, but ended up having to bail the PCs out because of a critical hacking failing on the droid player's part).

As for a solution to your problem, you should definely show him this website, and demonstrate how his peers feel about his actions and choices. Make him realize it's not just you who is questioning the way things are turning out.

Then ask him if he ever saw one of his CRPGs dock him experience (not the mmos, but rpgs like neverwinternights, baldurs gate, and fallout 1 & 2).

Finally, talk about the tendency of humans to meet force with force - and explain how a nonlethal setting on the weapons could make all the difference.

As a last resort, get him a copy of Falout 2 and tell him he needs to play that before running a game.

It's one of the most open CRPGs ever made, and does almost everything right, and despite the level of the graphics is still my favorite CRPG of all time.

Granted, it has it's flaws, but it provides the closest to a tabletop experience as has yet been made, and that includes the new D&D MMO.

Khantalas
2007-03-08, 10:26 AM
Well, I have a confession. I was one of those DMs.

Not that bad (seriously, quizzes?), but pretty bad on the department of railroading my plots.

Now, I am more experienced. My players don't see the railroad. Or the train, for that matter. I have become the Mono Blaine of DMs.

My advice: quit playing. Until you have proof that his DMing has improved, don't play with him. It took me five years to get back my first players.

Oh, and quiz him on the unofficial code of the DM. If he can't answer the fundamental question "What's the first commandent of a DM?" with "To make sure everybody has a good time", remove XP from all his NPCs and monsters. HP, too.

Tobrian
2007-03-08, 10:53 AM
3. If you want your players to respond to a situation with other than lethal force, especially in D&D, you have to give them a reason to do so.

... and a means to do so.


You do not, under any circumstances, attack them with lethal force, as they are definitely going to respond in kind. It's frickin' human nature.

Amen. The "I beat them down until they surrender" approach never works. Never has never will. I had to learn that, too, painfully. Both as player and as GM (hides in shame).

There's only one thing that's worse: Declaring that the NPC uses Dominate Person or a similar spell and that the PCs are now marionettes to the GM's the villain's will. Never ever do that, trust me, it'd bad. Yes these enchantment spells exist and are nifty, but... I've seen whole game sessions that went well until that point and then crashed horribly. Either the player gets annoyed that his PC is reduced to a puppet, or the rest of the group starts to treat that character like an enemy or at best a victim of possession who must be overwhelmed and beaten unconscious if he resists "for his own good". :smallfrown:

rollfrenzy
2007-03-08, 10:57 AM
Everybody has good points. Talk to him. Mediate. Try a new Dm.

What my group did, when our regular Gm decided he wanted to play, was go to a round robin campaign. Basically we each took turns and ran the game for one session, then the next person ran it. we tried to build of each others stories. It made for som really interesting plots. Eventually someone shows some real talent and they take over and run things out. This is a great way to let everyone get behind the screen and to challenge the Dm's to think on their feet. You need to beware of it becoming a monty hall game, though.

pestilenceawaits
2007-03-08, 11:34 AM
Everybody has good points. Talk to him. Mediate. Try a new Dm.

What my group did, when our regular Gm decided he wanted to play, was go to a round robin campaign. Basically we each took turns and ran the game for one session, then the next person ran it. we tried to build of each others stories. It made for som really interesting plots. Eventually someone shows some real talent and they take over and run things out. This is a great way to let everyone get behind the screen and to challenge the Dm's to think on their feet. You need to beware of it becoming a monty hall game, though.

This is a cool idea. When I was a kid we used to play story go round where someone would start a story and each person would add to it until the last person finished. This sounds like the role playing version of the same.

rollfrenzy
2007-03-08, 11:42 AM
This is a cool idea. When I was a kid we used to play story go round where someone would start a story and each person would add to it until the last person finished. This sounds like the role playing version of the same.

That was our inspiration. It leads to some really outstanding twists and alot of fun. We have done this a couple times.

Greenfaun
2007-03-08, 11:45 AM
For your central problem, I don't have any new advice, I would say "If you talk to him about it and can't get through, give up on the game. The point of playing a game is to have fun," but this has been said plenty of times.

As for the broader issue, though, one piece of advice I can give is to examine his and your actions for evidence of the Five Geek Social Fallacies:
http://sean.chittenden.org/humor/www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html

It seems to me that #2 and #5 might be in effect in your social group, maybe others too. If you feel that any criticism from you would be interpreted as rejection and therefore cause drama or even an end to the friendship, then he's holding you up to unfair standards. True friends can have fights or tell each other the uncomfortable truth and still be friends, and if he's not a true friend then why put up with his bullboop?

Swordguy
2007-03-08, 11:55 AM
At the risk of being jumped, I have to say I've considered forcing players into taking rules quizzes in the past, and in one case actually did so.

Why, you ask, would I do such an awful thing?

Well, let me explain. No, that is too much, let me sum up.

A lot of groups have that slow player, y'know? The one that always takes 10 minutes to figure out that what he wants to do is swing his sword at the kobold. At 10th level. In this case, imagine a guy who does that not because he wants to determine the most effective course of action, but because that's the only thing he can figure out how to do. The player, who's been in the campaign for 9 months of weekly sessions, doesn't know how subdual works. Doesn't know how tripping, sundering, fighting defensively, TWF, 2-H weapon fighting, or shields work. Doesn't know how Power Attack or weapon Focus work. And is playing a fighter with all of those feats.

Now imagine a whole group like that, who actively refuse to take an hour or two and sit down with a rulebook to figure out how the game works. Because they're too "busy". With work, you say? Perhaps with school? No, none of that. They simply get home, plop in front of the TV and vegetate, or maybe spend 10 hours playing an MMORPG, but can't find the time to figure out how to play the game they volunteered to play.

After 9 months of a campaign with players like that, I think that a rules quiz with unfortunate results for people who don't "study" is perfectly justifiable. Try DMing a combat between 10 orcs and 6 10th level PCs that takes 5 hours and keep up on your high horse about it. :smallfurious:

pestilenceawaits
2007-03-08, 11:58 AM
Try DMing a combat between 10 orcs and 6 10th level PCs that takes 5 hours and keep up on your high horse about it. :smallfurious:

This makes me very very sad for you. :smallfrown:
I have had that slow player also who refuses to even try to learn the rules if that is the case talk to them about it then if they don't shape up boot them from the game.

alchemy.freak
2007-03-08, 12:01 PM
my advice, quit. and if you feel up to it, DM another campaign and show him how its done.

dont rub it in his face, thats mean. some people just aren't cut out for dming.

IncredibleGeek
2007-03-08, 12:05 PM
Man, you must have the patience of a god. If someone pulled crap like that while I was playing, I probably would've pounded on the table, flicked over his screen, and stormed out with the Mountain Dew.

...But that's just me. ;)

That Lanky Bugger
2007-03-08, 12:06 PM
This makes me very very sad for you. :smallfrown:
I have had that slow player also who refuses to even try to learn the rules if that is the case talk to them about it then if they don't shape up boot them from the game.

Quoted for truth.

My expectation of players is always that they will take the time needed to learn the rules relevant to their characters. They can be the most wonderful roleplayers in the world, but if they can't be bothered to learn the rules of combat then I can't be bothered to have them in my game. It is, afterall, a game.

Afterall, who would you rather have on your football team? The super athlete who doesn't know what an offside is, or the decent athlete who's standing back from the line of scrimmage and shaking his head?

Gamebird
2007-03-08, 12:30 PM
Lots of good stuff I won't repeat. But here's something newish - the DM's plot sounds like it might have some really good elements to it.

I would think his plot might have been something like a bastardized version of the Transformers: Bad guy aliens crash on planet. Good guy aliens crash on planet. PCs run into good guy aliens, who don't understand the PCs or take them seriously. DM envisions a role-play-heavy interlude where the PCs and good guy aliens discover they're really on the same side, they learn to communicate, the good guy aliens equip the PCs to fight against the bad guy aliens, and all is good. Next stage involves kicking bad guy alien buttocks.

Getting to that interlude requires a level of finesse though. It's tough to do without making the PCs feel railroaded. The DM must plan for the PCs to refuse to cooperate and be prepared to stage one or two scenes where the PCs have a chance to change their minds. Portraying the good guys as helpless is a good tactic, but an inexperienced DM might be insecure or on an ego-trip that his powerful, cool DMPC race can't look weak. When paradoxically, the easiest way to get the PCs to work with them is to have them be at least temporarily weak.

If the DM fails to get the PCs to work with them, then you can always pretend those guys always were the bad guys (insert a few scenes of them being really bad) and try again by having the original bad guys suddenly turn out to be misunderstood good guys. If that fails, then invent a group of NPCs from the planet who want to hire the PCs and buff them up to help them destroy *both* groups of aliens.

The basic plot is salvageable, but the DM needs to see past his ego to do that. It sounds like the DM made a neat new race and got personally involved in his creation. The PC's defiance of the race was a defiance of the DM, hence the lashing out with penalties.

Which is bad. Never dock people xp for anything other than RAW-mandated stuff. If you feel overpoweringly moved to reduce the PC's rewards, then just give them less xp. Not a lot less (nothing bogus like "after playing for six hours, you get 5 xp"), but a third less or something like that. Then think long and hard about what you can do, as a DM, to provide the PCs an opportunity to earn a third *more* xp than usual next session.

Thomas
2007-03-08, 12:31 PM
I've never expected my players to look at the rulebooks, in 10+ years of GMing. I teach them as we go along, and remind them as necessary. (It's not like I can conduct a grapple without looking up the rules myself, anyway.) Most of them take the time to read up on and learn the abilities of their current characters (like spells and psionic powers), but rarely when not at the gaming table. It's never been a problem or slowed our game down. In some games, I actively don't want my players to see the rulebook! (Like, say Call of Cthulhu. Any game with just one book for everything, really.)

Swordguy
2007-03-08, 12:36 PM
I've never expected my players to look at the rulebooks, in 10+ years of GMing. I teach them as we go along, and remind them as necessary. (It's not like I can conduct a grapple without looking up the rules myself, anyway.) Most of them take the time to read up on and learn the abilities of their current characters (like spells and psionic powers), but rarely when not at the gaming table. It's never been a problem or slowed our game down. In some games, I actively don't want my players to see the rulebook! (Like, say Call of Cthulhu. Any game with just one book for everything, really.)

Fair enough. But what happens when they don't learn from your tender ministrations? After 9 months of weekly play, one shouldn't have to add up the fighter's attack bonuses for a normal (standard action) attack roll for him. That's just willful ignorance.

valadil
2007-03-08, 12:39 PM
It seems pretty obvious whats going on. Your DM wasn't prepared for what you guys did and so he panicked. Since he's a newbie he wasn't ready to improvise and didn't know what to do if he lost control of the game. Kinda sucks that he overreacted in that way though. I've seen GMs do that before. I actually got yelled at for resorting to combat in a GURPs game. If I wasn't supposed to resort to combat, the GM shouldn't have let me play such a combat heavy character in the first place.

Anyway, I don't think that ditching the game is the best idea. Most people suck when they first start GMing. If you all leave now your friend won't get any better. But it needs to be made clear that he isn't handling things well when things go wrong.

I'm not sure if this would work for him, but I've always taken a character driven approach plotting against the PCs. I'm not the one plotting against them - my NPCs are. If they do something to avoid a plot, then the NPC running that plot can react to it. Making plots the property of various NPCs also makes them not my plots. This means that if something doesn't play out as intended, I don't care as much. I have no idea if other people play this way, but it helps make my games a lot more open ended.


FWIW I've seen a GM resort to quizzing players once before. It was for a middle earth game. We were hoping the setting would encourage roleplaying if everyone had a strong background to draw their characters from. So everyone was asked to read LotR before we started. Players lied about it and the game fell apart. On the next attempt the GM actually quizzed players to make sure they'd read the books. We were awarded experience. I think I was the only one who picked up a substantial reward, but I was also the only player who had read the books on his own regardless of in game rewards. In retrospect this is a case of players not making the effort, moreso than of a GM who didn't know what to do.


I've also seen XP penalties before. Telling someone to lose several thousand XP is a little rude. Telling someone that because they fell asleep at game so they're losing 1/3 of the session's XP is perfectly acceptable. If you're quick mathematically you can usually figure out what fraction to dock to get the right amount of XP loss, without taking away something that's already been given out.

One last note - make sure your DM sees your post here. I don't think anyone is too overtly hostile, and he really does need some help. If he gets pissy and doesn't want to read it, then I'd say to quit the game despite my previous advise.

rollfrenzy
2007-03-08, 12:47 PM
On the topic of xp Loss, I've only been docked XP one time. The Dm told me If I didn't do something (OOC I was being annoying) I would lose a tenth of an experience point. I laughed and told him to bring it. Didn't think about the fact It was a starting character and I had to begin without Class levels.
Learned my lesson though.

Swordguy
2007-03-08, 01:03 PM
On the topic of xp Loss, I've only been docked XP one time. The Dm told me If I didn't do something (OOC I was being annoying) I would lose a tenth of an experience point. I laughed and told him to bring it. Didn't think about the fact It was a starting character and I had to begin without Class levels.
Learned my lesson though.

There should have been some Nelson-style pointing and laughing at you for that. :smallbiggrin:

rollfrenzy
2007-03-08, 01:08 PM
There was. This happened 10+ years ago and it's still used as a threat or joke. (sometimes both at once).

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-08, 01:11 PM
Actually, the funniest thing to do, is ask for another game. Then, start making demands of him. Or, just plain walk out in hte middle of the session for an extended period of time, and return demanding that your simple sidequest be followed (you talked to a barber or something...)
Refuse to dock the character's XP. Just sit there when he tells you you lost XP. Be DEFIANT, but not a jerk about it. Maybe he will get it. If not, slap him in the face, and tell him what an idiot jerk he is being.
Seriously, try to have as much fun at his expense. That is what he was trying to do to you it seems.


Well, I don't know about that, they are still friends. He should tell him that he's not coming anymore and explain why to the DM if he realy wants to know. If they weren't friends, I'd point Aquaseafoam to the Complete Smeghead's guide to campaign destruction (http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue10/CompSmeg1.html) at criticalmiss.com.

Just confront him and don't let him get by with saying "You're letting the party down" and other nonsense. If, persay, there is a player or two who likes the campaign, forcing someone who doesn't like it to stay will ruin their fun. Tell your DM friend that. Its the only responsible thing you really can do. Its not selfish to refuse to be unhappy! Its actually one of the most generous things you can do for other people, in any situation.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-03-08, 01:34 PM
I'm just going to chime in with another "quit." That's the best answer here, and apparently the one you're already taking.

Also, this guy still isn't the worst DM ever, because he's stopped short of actually (and legitimately) getting the cops called on him. Ask LankyBugger.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-03-08, 01:35 PM
The DMs conduct is not okay, for reasons already covered.

The way I see it, your problem isn't that he's a bad DM, it's that he's your friend, and you don't just want to quit.

The important thing here is to not make it a personal attack; get all your players together and everyone tells him that he's not DMing in a satisfactory way.

A constructive solution, if he wants to continue trying to DM, is to suggest he play a Pregenerated Mod (such as a WotC off the shelf mod) and get some experience DMing players before he also tries to balance building an entire world as well.

Morty
2007-03-08, 01:59 PM
I'm just going to chime in with another "quit." That's the best answer here, and apparently the one you're already taking.

Also, this guy still isn't the worst DM ever, because he's stopped short of actually (and legitimately) getting the cops called on him. Ask LankyBugger.

Do you mean there was worse case of idiot DM prestented on boards:smallconfused: ?

headwarpage
2007-03-08, 02:01 PM
Do you mean there was worse case of idiot DM prestented on boards:smallconfused: ?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23784

Yes. It's a good read.

Dairun Cates
2007-03-08, 02:25 PM
I have to tend to agree. When there's no one else to GM, it's time to pick up the gauntlet and try it yourself. Having been a PC, you're bound to know the group pretty well. Play on what they enjoy.

pestilenceawaits
2007-03-08, 03:32 PM
WOW I just read the lanky bugger thread and I am so glad the worst situation I have had with a DM is a simple though relatively loud argument with him leaving my house in a huff. People are crazy:smalleek::smallfrown:

Were-Sandwich
2007-03-08, 03:39 PM
These threads make me feel really happy I have my group. We might not be the best RPers or the most serious players in the world, but at least we get along.

Thomas
2007-03-08, 03:40 PM
Fair enough. But what happens when they don't learn from your tender ministrations? After 9 months of weekly play, one shouldn't have to add up the fighter's attack bonuses for a normal (standard action) attack roll for him. That's just willful ignorance.

I'm blessed with players with at least average intelligence, I guess. Blame the Finnish schools...


I don't think anyone is too overtly hostile.

Crud! I can still fix that, though!

Er...

I bite my thumb at thee, sir!

Black Mage
2007-03-08, 04:30 PM
I've had bad DMs before.

One would gimp already weak classes because he thought one thing they could do was over powered. And while gimping peoples characters, he would make the monsters we fought damn near impossible to kill! Vampires that got stronger during daylight, and were strong as hell at night as well! Throwing a +10 or 15 mystery deflection bonus to their AC as well as making them do twice as much damage. We were level 7.

Another one would make the party way to powerful. You don't want to know how he let us roll stats for one game. When he realizes how powerful our characters are (using his rules) he would then throw monsters at us that actually absorbed everything we hit them with. Psionics, magic, weapon damage. Nothing could hurt the thing at all! It was just a lame excuse to kill the party.

But your DM sounds like an ass. Smack him in the face with the DMs guide.

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-08, 04:57 PM
I'm just going to chime in with another "quit." That's the best answer here, and apparently the one you're already taking.

Also, this guy still isn't the worst DM ever, because he's stopped short of actually (and legitimately) getting the cops called on him. Ask LankyBugger.

Wait, what? Cops!? What did that DM do?

Aquaseafoam
2007-03-08, 05:01 PM
I'm quitting the campaign. It's really just become a huge waste of time for me. I think everyone is more than a little annoyed at him right now too. In the previous session our longest living character just bit the dust and the character's owner seems really ticked about the cheesy way in which he died. I mean, nothing should be able to deal 10d12 damage to a level 7 character. We lost 4 out of 7 characters in that encounter and we only got a couple hundred exp. Forget him.

BTW, I read the lankybugger thread. Man, that really sucks, and if my friend had tried anything like that, I would have left him on the curb in a heap. Some people just don't get it, the purpose of the DM is for the players to have a good time. Theres many ways to go about it, and even more ways to screw it up.

Douglas
2007-03-08, 05:12 PM
Wait, what? Cops!? What did that DM do?
For more details than "breaking a bunch of records for how much of a jerk someone can be", read the thread it was originally reported on. It's linked on page 2 of this thread.

mystikphish
2007-03-08, 06:49 PM
Aquaseafoam...

Please before you quit the campaign (trust me you'll regret it later, after you've gone 6 years looking for a new group to play with!), see if you can get the group together and have the players tell the GM, "Look, you gave it your best shot but it's not working out. Why don't we try giving someone else a chance to GM. We can come back to your campaign in the future when we've all got a bit more experience"

And the big bullet to bite is that YOU should volunteer to GM!

It's scary as hell to make that committment, but there are ways to make it easier:
1. Run the campaign in the "generic" v3.5 setting, you only need the core rules.
2. Use a pregren adventure, you can find some online for free (they're not all good, but whatever... FREE!) or purchase one at a local shop.
3. KEEP THE SESSIONS SHORT. I know it's tempting to shoot for that 8-hour marathon each week (especially when you're young), but try to hit a 4-hour bi-weekly instead. A lot less pressue and a higher GM prep-to-play ratio.

You should at least try that before bailing on the whole thing. I can tell you from experience nothing is worse than having a group of committed players fall apart for dumb, easy-to-fix reasons like this and then not being able to build a new group for YEARS...

Ranis
2007-03-08, 08:24 PM
These threads make me feel really happy I have my group. We might not be the best RPers or the most serious players in the world, but at least we get along.

These are my sentiments exactly. Having fun is the key to everything, everything in this game, and when the person running the game crashes it down on everyone's heads, that definitely ruins the experience for everyone.




3. KEEP THE SESSIONS SHORT. I know it's tempting to shoot for that 8-hour marathon each week (especially when you're young), but try to hit a 4-hour bi-weekly instead. A lot less pressue and a higher GM prep-to-play ratio.

I run a game and play in a game every other week, with the same group of people. Plus, it gives me the time that I need with my busy schedule to prepare the more enriched world for my players when I have that extra week to make sure everything is nice and shiny for them.

A whole lot less stressful, too.

If nothing else, you should give this a shot either explaining to him or when you run your own. I agree and stress this more than anything else I've read in this thread.

Matthew
2007-03-09, 06:28 PM
Oh dear. I can never quite wrap my mind around how these sort of things occur. Is there a reason behind this DM's methods? Why does he think it is okay to fine players and quiz them for no apparent reason? It sounds like he is the typical target of DM advice articles and columns that appear from time to time. I would have a hard time playing with somebody who behaved that way without cause. Consider trying a different game or just telling him how out of line you think he is being. Since he is your friend he should respondd to constructive criticism. Direct him towards some 'new DM' resources.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-03-09, 07:51 PM
Leave, DM your own game, and steal as many of his players as possible.

The only time I've ever penalized already-earned EXP for player issues like that (in my case, declaring on no authority whatsoever that a house rule from their other DM was in effect, after I specifically vetoed that rule, this was among other whining) was as a final warning; I was ready to kick him from the group for one more offense in that case, and honestly should have kicked him for it (had he left over this, I wouldn't miss him), but we had a semi-decent player who wanted to keep him in (he was the only problem in the group; except for him and the other guy who wanted him in, the rest of the group wanted him to shut up, and agreed with the penalty).

Really, I wouldn't dock already-earned EXP from someone I wasn't ready to have leave the group, and would say that no DM should throw out that kind of penalty to someone they're not ready to have leave (at least without prior warning; if it's part of the group's rules that EXP penalties are going to be handed out for certain infractions, and everyone knows this, then they're fine).

So, by handing out an EXP penalty, he's been one step shy of asking you directly to leave; don't give him that satisfaction, take the initiative, and leave. If he's throwing these penalties around heavy-handedly, there are probably some other upset players. Pull them out and make your own group. If he was honest with his EXP penalties, the only drawback here is that he wins too (having gotten rid of all of his players); if he actually wanted to keep the players around for the power trip, you win all the way.

Wooz
2007-03-09, 09:03 PM
That is one of the worst stories I've ever heard, and I've been DMing and playing for years. Basically, just smack him with a beating stick and stop playing. A DM's purpose is to make a fun game that people like to play, not a slave driving reign of evil. Unless that's the campaign... Still, that should not be tolerated. ((Kind of like one of my DM's. Whenever I said to walk into a room he would roll about 4 D20s and then I would take that much damage from stubbing my toe. It sucked))

The Valiant Turtle
2007-03-09, 09:48 PM
Wow, ugly situation. If you do want to still try to salvage something of this I would try to get together with both this GM and with your experienced GM and talk through the situation. If the experienced GM is as good as you say he may be able to be a big help in this situation. Who knows, maybe he can even help this guy from behind the scenes a little bit.

If you do try to get things back on track, a few recommendations, which have for the most part already been made...

1. When the party spots a plot hook, bite down hard. It doesn't sound like you really have a problem with this. Some partys are a bit headstrong and won't take the most well-baited hook just because they are being contrary. He may have encountered one of these in the past. Tell the DM that a hokey and pathetic hook is fine. He may have tried to work up the perfect hook and it misfired badly when a simple hook would have got the job done.

2. Tell the DM it's okay if he has to say "I'm not really prepared for this, can we put the game on hold and get out Yahtzee?" (Or some other board or card game).

Good luck.