Why I no longer allow third party material in post-epic games- The Clockwork Army

[atemu1234]

Sorry about the hyphenated title.

I had a player who ran an Artificer 20/Psionic Artificer 10. First mistake. I also allowed the Clockwork Creature template from Advanced Bestiary. Second mistake.

The artificer crafted a magic item to use Mind Seed, and he proceeded to make more and more of them. I also was using un-eratta'd versions of the Artisan feats from the same sourcebook as the nonpsionic artificer.

This snowball effect of mistakes then resulted in an army in the Elemental Plane of Earth that was measured in the trillions of trillions where the spellscale artificer spent thirty years making more artifacts who made more copies of him. They were all still loyal to him because I didn't take that way out.

He now rules the prime material.

Feel free to call me an idiot and share your stories of players making horrible messes of campaign worlds.

[Story]

It could be worse. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?282178-Depopulating-Hell-via-Bunnies)

[Darrin]

This isn't really a third party issue. With spellclocks, resetting traps, and spells like minor servitor (Savage Species) and awaken sand (Sandstorm), you can build an army of intelligent constructs pre-epic.

unseenmage created 7 billion minor servitors (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?323062) and wasn't quite sure what to do with them.

[Divide by Zero]

I don't really see the issue. This is Epic. If the players aren't ruling the world, it's because either a) they don't want to, or b) they're too busy dealing with epic-level enemies.

[Shining Wrath]

Just remember, anything your PCs can do, the BBEG can also do.

The Prime Material is laid waste as 10**24th Clockwork Constructs slavishly loyal to your PC clash headlong with 10**24th Clockwork Constructs slavishly loyal to the BBEG, while in the wings wait 10**23rd Clockwork Constructs slavishly loyal to the BBEG's rebellious minion.

In the meantime, Asmodeus said "Kewl idea, D00D!" and has 10**20th Pit Fiend CC ready to got, plus he's created 10*10th CC Fortress-forges that not only pump out the Pit Fiend CC, they create new copies of CC Fortress-forges, and he's going to settle this annoying Blood War thing ONCE AND FOR ALL as a nearly infinite number of CC F-f drop onto each plane of the Abyss.

[Starmage21]

Just remember, anything your PCs can do, the BBEG can also do.

The Prime Material is laid waste as 10**24th Clockwork Constructs slavishly loyal to your PC clash headlong with 10**24th Clockwork Constructs slavishly loyal to the BBEG, while in the wings wait 10**23rd Clockwork Constructs slavishly loyal to the BBEG's rebellious minion.

In the meantime, Asmodeus said "Kewl idea, D00D!" and has 10**20th Pit Fiend CC ready to got, plus he's created 10*10th CC Fortress-forges that not only pump out the Pit Fiend CC, they create new copies of CC Fortress-forges, and he's going to settle this annoying Blood War thing ONCE AND FOR ALL as a nearly infinite number of CC F-f drop onto each plane of the Abyss.

The problem is, The Planes are infinite. Theyre both already doing that, and you just dont get to see it because the clockwork armies are too busy killing each other on some obscure layer of the abyss.

[Shining Wrath]

The problem is, The Planes are infinite. Theyre both already doing that, and you just dont get to see it because the clockwork armies are too busy killing each other on some obscure layer of the abyss.

Yeah, I'm afraid I always home rule that the Abyss isn't actually infinite. Because if it's infinite then at any moment an infinite number of demons have figured out how to Gate themselves (or take advantage of some foolish mortal's Gate) and attack each entity in the entire multiverse. And that includes time-travel, so these attacks span four dimensional space-time.

If you have infinite number of beings trying to do things, then for anything that they have non-zero probability of success, an infinite number of them are succeeding, each and every instant.

Eventually even Boccob and We Jas and Corellon Larethian are going to be overwhelmed when an infinite number of Balors not only attack where they are, but everywhere they might go, including the places no one else has ever been, and every moment of their existence throughout time.

[Starmage21]

Yeah, I'm afraid I always home rule that the Abyss isn't actually infinite. Because if it's infinite then at any moment an infinite number of demons have figured out how to Gate themselves (or take advantage of some foolish mortal's Gate) and attack each entity in the entire multiverse. And that includes time-travel, so these attacks span four dimensional space-time.

If you have infinite number of beings trying to do things, then for anything that they have non-zero probability of success, an infinite number of them are succeeding, each and every instant.

Eventually even Boccob and We Jas and Corellon Larethian are going to be overwhelmed when an infinite number of Balors not only attack where they are, but everywhere they might go, including the places no one else has ever been, and every moment of their existence throughout time.

The Prime is also infinite, containing an infinite number of worlds inside an infinite number of crystal spheres. The very definition of the multiverse implies that anything that CAN happen, HAS happened. The prime world you came from is just a place where nothing world-ending hasnt happened yet. This very reason is why planars dont have any respect for clueless primes.

[ComaVision]

Hadn't heard of Psionic Artificer before so I decided to look it up:


Psionic artificers are similar to Artificers, but they craft psionic items instead of magic items. A Psionic Artificer is treated as a standard artificer for purposes of meeting feat or prestige class prerequisites. A character cannot have levels in both artificer and psionic artificer.

[Shining Wrath]

The Prime is also infinite, containing an infinite number of worlds inside an infinite number of crystal spheres. The very definition of the multiverse implies that anything that CAN happen, HAS happened. ... SNIP ... Technically, with infinite worlds, it *is* happening, right now, if it's possible.

And the number of worlds in our RW universe is very large, so if, e.g., it's possible that Middle Earth could ever exist, then right now, at this instant, the Ring is going into the fire just like Tolkien wrote it.

And also just like Tolkien couldn't bear to write it, Gollum didn't show up at the end, and Sam realized what he must do, and charged forward and tackled the invisible Frodo and carried them both into the cracks of Doom.

Or Frodo beats Gollum, and the Nazgul show up, and kill both Frodo and Sam, and present the ring to Sauron, and very bad things ensue.

It's all happening right now, out there somewhere.

Same for Game of Thrones, Narnia, Earthsea, Star Wars, Star Trek, ....

[Elderand]

Technically, with infinite worlds, it *is* happening, right now, if it's possible.

And the number of worlds in our RW universe is very large, so if, e.g., it's possible that Middle Earth could ever exist, then right now, at this instant, the Ring is going into the fire just like Tolkien wrote it.

And also just like Tolkien couldn't bear to write it, Gollum didn't show up at the end, and Sam realized what he must do, and charged forward and tackled the invisible Frodo and carried them both into the cracks of Doom.

Or Frodo beats Gollum, and the Nazgul show up, and kill both Frodo and Sam, and present the ring to Sauron, and very bad things ensue.

It's all happening right now, out there somewhere.

Same for Game of Thrones, Narnia, Earthsea, Star Wars, Star Trek, ....

Except not in our universe because the law of physics are a thing that exist.

[Extra Anchovies]

Technically, with infinite worlds, it *is* happening, right now, if it's possible.

And the number of worlds in our RW universe is very large, so if, e.g., it's possible that Middle Earth could ever exist, then right now, at this instant, the Ring is going into the fire just like Tolkien wrote it.

And also just like Tolkien couldn't bear to write it, Gollum didn't show up at the end, and Sam realized what he must do, and charged forward and tackled the invisible Frodo and carried them both into the cracks of Doom.

Or Frodo beats Gollum, and the Nazgul show up, and kill both Frodo and Sam, and present the ring to Sauron, and very bad things ensue.

It's all happening right now, out there somewhere.

Same for Game of Thrones, Narnia, Earthsea, Star Wars, Star Trek, ....

Even the Star Wars Holiday Special?

oh no

[Shining Wrath]

Except not in our universe because the law of physics are a thing that exist.

Which laws of physics are violated in LotR? Other than Shelob being rather larger than an exoskeleton could support...

[JusticeZero]

OK, once again:
At level 1, you've got training and are nervously stepping out into the world, praying to your gods to protect you.
At level 5, you're a reknowned hero, achieving great deeds in the service of your gods.
At level 10, you're legendary, achieving superhuman acts and inspiring stories of yourself alongside the tales of the gods.
At level 15, when the gods throw a party, they make sure to invite you.
At level 20, when you throw a party, you invite the gods and they show up if they know what's good for them.
At level 25, you no longer pray to the gods. It's more effective to just do it yourself.
At level 30, if you aren't a major member of the pantheon, it's because you thought it was beneath you.

[Psyren]

Why I no longer allow post-epic games

Fixed the title for you :smalltongue:

[Elderand]

Which laws of physics are violated in LotR? Other than Shelob being rather larger than an exoskeleton could support...

Conservation of energy, thermodynamics, laws of convection....