Curtain walls are an anachronism.

[nedz]

Over in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367045-Anachronistic-Inventions-in-a-Medieval-Fantasy-Setting) thread I argued that Curtain walls are an anachronism.

Now not everyone bought this argument, which is fine, and I'm not interested in re-hashing the debate.

The question I have is how do you create magical defences which perform better than curtain walls in defending a location ?
This is so that castles can be replaced in a setting by magical defences which are better than curtain walls.

Lower resource usage is good, so minimal spell levels etc., because cost benefit analysis — although building castles is not cheap.
Consideration of how to counter the defences is also important, because in any setting with verisimilitude an arms race will be in place.

[PersonMan]

I feel like, if you're setting up magical defenses, making walls with Wall of Stone would be a simple, efficient thing to do. Sure, you can use other ways to block off your standard footsoldier attack, but I think WoS will be the best way to make a permanent, low or no upkeep barrier to keep them out. Save the higher maintenance stuff for keeping out flyers, spellcasters, etc. and let the mundanes scratch their heads in front of your easy-bake fortification.

[nedz]

Possibly true, but it's not what I had in mind. I want to replace stone walls with something else in a fantasy setting. I do have some ideas, but I want to leave this open to begin with.

[Jeff the Green]

Is price an issue? If not, riverine walls with AMFs surrounding but not touching them. Impervious to everything but disintegrate, but disintegrate can't hit them. 'Course, riverine can also be used offensively (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17767756&postcount=3).

[PersonMan]

"Low resource usage is good" implies that crazy expensive things are a please-avoid. :smalltongue:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spell Turrets in DMG2 aren't too expensive. The Sacred Grove Spell Turret has a base price of 45,000 gp, it uses Summon Nature's Ally V for probably a Dire Lion or Polar Bear, casts Stoneskin on it, casts Animal Growth on it, then casts Call Lightning Storm to zap someone, and then the turret repairs itself for 4d8+20 damage. It has 200 hp, search and disable device DCs of 30, and hardness of whatever it's mounted on (10 for iron, 8 for stone). Every five rounds it makes and buffs a defender, causes lightning to hit attackers, and then repairs itself, though if it hasn't taken any damage it may be able to direct another lightning strike instead.

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?302120-Optimizing-a-Mundane-Garrison) discusses how to optimize cost-effective and nonmagical defenses for a small castle in a magical setting.


Is price an issue? If not, riverine walls with AMFs surrounding but not touching them. Impervious to everything but disintegrate, but disintegrate can't hit them. 'Course, riverine can also be used offensively (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17767756&postcount=3).

AMF does not block line of effect for spells according to the Rules Compendium, so if you're outside the AMF casting Disintegrate at a riverine object that's on the opposite side of but not within the AMF, you can just pretend the AMF isn't even there.

[Jeff the Green]

True. The issue is cost benefit analysis. Such walls, as near as I can tell, are impenetrable outside of teleport effects, so depending on the context and the availability of counter-teleportation strategies it may have a very favorable cost/benefit ratio.

What I was asking is whether they're constrained to a certain wealth or whether an outrageously high benefit can justify an outrageously high cost.

From a lower-level standpoint, there's augment object, a 3rd-level spell available to all of the big 3 that doubles the hardness and HP of an object with a volume of 200 cu ft/level for 1 day/level. At higher levels, hardening increases hardness by 1/level and is permanent.

The big issue is spells. Disintegrate will destroy just about anything. This could be partially solved by making the blocks of your wall animated objects.

[nedz]

Spell Turrets in DMG2 aren't too expensive. The Sacred Grove Spell Turret has a base price of 45,000 gp, it uses Summon Nature's Ally V for probably a Dire Lion or Polar Bear, casts Stoneskin on it, casts Animal Growth on it, then casts Call Lightning Storm to zap someone, and then the turret repairs itself for 4d8+20 damage. It has 200 hp, search and disable device DCs of 30, and hardness of whatever it's mounted on (10 for iron, 8 for stone). Every five rounds it makes and buffs a defender, causes lightning to hit attackers, and then repairs itself, though if it hasn't taken any damage it may be able to direct another lightning strike instead.
Yeah that's more like it.
I don't have DMG2 :smallannoyed: but that's probably not insurmountable.
What else can we do with Spell Turrets to defend an area ?
I take it they run through a spell sequence.
Can we make cheaper ones so that we can spread several around ?

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?302120-Optimizing-a-Mundane-Garrison) discusses how to optimize cost-effective and nonmagical defenses for a small castle in a magical setting.

Nice thread, but it does focus on making a castle work rather than replace it. Tippy's post is relevant: sell the castle. The last post is amusing, I was actually thinking about Harlech castle which is a very imposing medieval royal castle (well was — it's a ruin nowadays) with a tiny garrison.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

NPC spellcasting for a Permanent Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanentImage.htm) at a caster level of 20th should only cost 1300 gp. It should only take a few of those to completely conceal a castle's existence. Choose a remote location, such as at the top of a steep hill, get that cast before you even start building, and make the entrance through a tunnel in the hill or a small cabin that's not concealed by the illusion, so anyone who enters looks like they're disappearing into an actual entrance to something and not just vanishing into an illusory area (which would entitle onlookers to a saving throw). Just remember that nobody even has a chance to make a save against the illusion unless they interact with it or actively disbelieve (metagame) it.

A permanent or charges/day item of a Magnificent Mansion could be a suitable substitute for a castle, or it could be used to create interior areas beyond what buildings would fit in a castle.

[Killer Angel]

You can improve the fighting abilities of your garrison with a couple of self-resetting magical traps.

[PersonMan]

The purpose of the fortification is also important. If you want a bunker where you can teleport your noble / royal family and lay low during some apocalyptic event, then a small, illusion-covered hideaway far from civilization is perfect.

If you're looking to control a river, or project power, then you may want to pick a spot from which you can

1. Easily deploy troops brought to or stationed at the fortification.
2. Keep an eye on the area you want to control.

which can severely impact your options on where to place the fortification. An impregnable, self-sustaining fort that's impossible to even find can be used as a base for hit-and-run operations, but if it's deep in the woods somewhere you won't be able to control trade and passage through the nearby river with it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Quite a while back some friends of mine joined an epic level game. After buying gear, they had an extra ~5 million gp between them, so they built a castle. Between craft skills, magic item creation, and casting permanent spells, they created the most amazing castle ever seen. It was alive per Animate Objects plus Awaken Construct, could fly, it had multiple independently animate turrets that could cast Disintegrate and various other spells at will, it could Greater Teleport and Plane Shift at will, it had automatic reset spell traps of Miracle (no xp cost, mimics any 8th or lower cleric spell or any other 7th or lower spell), and so many magic protections that nothing could harm it. Plus they could summon it from anywhere and it was independently capable of defeating anything they encountered that game, though they never used it to attack.

[Telonius]

The point of a curtain wall, in a fantasy setting, would still probably be to keep low-level invaders out. And many of the low-level guys are going to be trying to assault the castle with a bunch of torches or other burning stuff.

So how about this. Regular curtain wall, but covered in Brown Mold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#slimesMoldsAndFungi). It'll do enough damage to knock out (or at least severely inconvenience) most level-1 attackers, doesn't offer a save, gets stronger/thicker if they're shooting flaming arrows, and is basically a pain to get past for low-level enemies. If they have a wizard capable of casting Cone of Cold, he's level 9 and probably has something better to do with his time than attacking a stationary fungus.

[bjoern]

The point of a curtain wall, in a fantasy setting, would still probably be to keep low-level invaders out. And many of the low-level guys are going to be trying to assault the castle with a bunch of torches or other burning stuff.

So how about this. Regular curtain wall, but covered in Brown Mold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#slimesMoldsAndFungi). It'll do enough damage to knock out (or at least severely inconvenience) most level-1 attackers, doesn't offer a save, gets stronger/thicker if they're shooting flaming arrows, and is basically a pain to get past for low-level enemies. If they have a wizard capable of casting Cone of Cold, he's level 9 and probably has something better to do with his time than attacking a stationary fungus.

While cool, wouldn't attackers eventually figure out that if they just sat set fires at the base of the walls and kept feeding the fires with wood and hay, that mold would keep growing until it consumed the whole city inside and out?

[Telonius]

You could probably line the top with something that does a constant amount of low-level cold damage, to prevent it from creeping over.

[bjoern]

You could probably line the top with something that does a constant amount of low-level cold damage, to prevent it from creeping over.

Easy enough.
Using brown mold, you might not even need to have a heavily fortified wall made from stone. Building it from timber or even earth could be sufficient to bring material and labor costs down.

[nedz]

The point of a curtain wall, in a fantasy setting, would still probably be to keep low-level invaders out. And many of the low-level guys are going to be trying to assault the castle with a bunch of torches or other burning stuff.

So how about this. Regular curtain wall, but covered in Brown Mold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#slimesMoldsAndFungi). It'll do enough damage to knock out (or at least severely inconvenience) most level-1 attackers, doesn't offer a save, gets stronger/thicker if they're shooting flaming arrows, and is basically a pain to get past for low-level enemies. If they have a wizard capable of casting Cone of Cold, he's level 9 and probably has something better to do with his time than attacking a stationary fungus.


Brown Mold (CR 2)

Brown mold feeds on warmth, drawing heat from anything around it. It normally comes in patches 5 feet in diameter, and the temperature is always cold in a 30-foot radius around it. Living creatures within 5 feet of it take 3d6 points of nonlethal cold damage. Fire brought within 5 feet of brown mold causes it to instantly double in size. Cold damage, such as from a cone of cold, instantly destroys it.
The trouble with Brown Mold is that Ray of Frost is a cantrip which should destroy it instantly — Cone of cold is only an example. It's not clear but maybe you need an AoE : to destroy an area of Mold ? There are several 1st level spell which can be used to do this.

[Daishain]

Still not sure what the point of this stance is, but whatever.

The role of the curtain wall is movement control. It prevents people from simply walking through. Items such as the spell turrets mentioned cannot replace a curtain wall, because regardless of how useful they may be, they become even more useful if paired with defensive fortifications. In order to do without mundane walls entirely, you must find some means to reliably replace it, or otherwise render it unnecessary.

The former would involve measures such as a permanent prismatic wall. Magical barriers that aren't nearly as expensive exist, but they're all destroyed/suppressed by a single low CL dispel magic casting. Every serious attacking force you will ever face as a stronghold owner should be able to manage a dispel, making most magical barriers about as effective as wet tissue paper.

The latter would involve changing the landscape around the stronghold. Its up in the air, its surrounded by lava, its on an entirely different plane of existence, etc. This is not exactly cheap either, and doing this tends to render the stronghold useless for most purposes, since their point is projecting power, not just turtling up.

[bjoern]

The trouble with Brown Mold is that Ray of Frost is a cantrip which should destroy it instantly — Cone of cold is only an example. It's not clear but maybe you need an AoE : to destroy an area of Mold ? There are several 1st level spell which can be used to do this.

Come up with some way to apply Prestidigitation to the backside of the walls to keep them warm. Constantly causing the mold to grow. You'd have to make a switch or something to turn it off.

Then you could yell at the kids.

"Hey! Turn off the mold!"

[Shining Wrath]

I suspect that if you accept the premise that curtain walls are an anachronism because of flight and magic, not to mention magical flight, that you quickly get to modern military doctrine of highly mobile forces able to create and exploit breakthroughs in enemy lines with close coordination of forces achieved by good communication, and intelligence (that is, spying) being of paramount importance. Fixed defenses are as useful as the Maginot line - that is, not very.

BTW, the Maginot Line *was* attacked - by the Allies, going north. It didn't prove to be much of an obstacle even though the Germans had put some effort into turning it around to point south.

So, in D&D, it's all about the C3I.

The typical D&D war would probably consist of a war of spell casters divining the disposition of the enemy forces and most especially the location of the enemy commanders, trying to "jam" communications (or insert false messages), and in many cases resolved by a surgical strike of "special forces" (i.e., parties of PCs) upon enemy HQ. The army would march AFTER the war was over, to claim control of the territory and impose the new government upon the commoners and merchants and other non-spell-casters.

[bjoern]

Whilst organized intelligent enemies such as the wizards listed above, would completely circumvent mundane defenses, the walls serve the purpose of keeping out riff Raff and rabble on a day to day basis. Having thewall would minimize the need to have shoulder to sshoulder guards all the time. Keep out the random goblins, bugbears, angry badgers etc. Making like in the city safer from those things.

[Shining Wrath]

Whilst organized intelligent enemies such as the wizards listed above, would completely circumvent mundane defenses, the walls serve the purpose of keeping out riff Raff and rabble on a day to day basis. Having thewall would minimize the need to have shoulder to sshoulder guards all the time. Keep out the random goblins, bugbears, angry badgers etc. Making like in the city safer from those things.

If the king has any high level wizards or clerics working for him, random goblins are going to be picked up by divination 10 miles from the city and met by twice their number of city guards backed up by a few medium level casters.

The results will not be pretty.

Walls are good so long as no one has any casters of level 5 or more on their side. I'm AFB right now but I think that DM Guide suggests a small town would start having that level of magic.

Villages might have walls. Individual farms might have fences. Much larger than that, nope.

[bjoern]

If the king has any high level wizards or clerics working for him, random goblins are going to be picked up by divination 10 miles from the city and met by twice their number of city guards backed up by a few medium level casters.

The results will not be pretty.

Walls are good so long as no one has any casters of level 5 or more on their side. I'm AFB right now but I think that DM Guide suggests a small town would start having that level of magic.

Villages might have walls. Individual farms might have fences. Much larger than that, nope.

While this is absolutely true, do you think that a wizard or cleric would want to be bothered with hunting and protecting the city everyday? This method is just a matter of probability, eventually a goblin will get a lucky hit and cripple or even kill a guard. Investing some time and energy into building a mundane stone or timber wall will lessen the frequency that the guards, wizards, or clerics will have to make these confrontations. Allowing them to do other things. Clerics pray and heal the sick, wizards study books and entertain themselves by magically communicating with colleagues in other cities, guards keep bands of children from causing too much mayhem in the streets. Life is much simpler and comfortable without the threat of combat encounter every day.

[Shining Wrath]

While this is absolutely true, do you think that a wizard or cleric would want to be bothered with hunting and protecting the city everyday? This method is just a matter of probability, eventually a goblin will get a lucky hit and cripple or even kill a guard. Investing some time and energy into building a mundane stone or timber wall will lessen the frequency that the guards, wizards, or clerics will have to make these confrontations. Allowing them to do other things. Clerics pray and heal the sick, wizards study books and entertain themselves by magically communicating with colleagues in other cities, guards keep bands of children from causing too much mayhem in the streets. Life is much simpler and comfortable without the threat of combat encounter every day.

It depends on the king's personality, of course, but against the cost of maintaining your guard / caster force must be set the cost of maintaining your walls - and when the city grows, as you probably hope it will, your walls need to move.

I think that modern military doctrine is carefully thought out by some really smart people, and once you assume that fortifications can be bypassed or breached, you get to C3I + mobility. Saddam tried fortifications in Desert Storm back in '93; Schwarzkopf gave the world a lesson in the advantages of mobility plus intelligence. Saddam had NO idea where the allied forces were disposed; Schwarzkopf knew exactly where the Iraqi forces were; the result was the French Foreign Legion + 101st Airborne going around the west flank of Iraqi dispositions and rampaging through the Iraqi lines of communication.

As far as Saddam could tell it *was* magic.

[bjoern]

If there are no walls at all, and during the night, some critters walk right into town, what's to keep them from causing trouble. Nothing.
Walls deter some threats and give the community piece of mind.

You could easily walk everywhere with an umbetella to keep the rain off your head, or just put a roof on your house........

Will it save you from a hurricane? No but it will be useful most of the time.

[Emperor Tippy]

Walls are pretty cheap and easy to construct (especially if you have a Wizard and a trap of Mage's Lucubration on hand) so you might as well throw them up around settlements and defensive outposts of all kinds (at least unless you have a specific reason not to in a given situation).

They don't do much (if anything) against intelligent enemies that are specifically targeting the protected location or are of even moderate level but they do significantly slow down (or even halt outright) a lot of the unintelligent wildlife that makes D&D worlds death worlds for the vast majority of the population.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

... trap of Mage's Lucubration ...

That spell is personal-range, how is a trap going to cast it on a character?

[Telonius]

Come up with some way to apply Prestidigitation to the backside of the walls to keep them warm. Constantly causing the mold to grow. You'd have to make a switch or something to turn it off.

Then you could yell at the kids.

"Hey! Turn off the mold!"

Central A/C and refrigeration for the D&D world! :smallbiggrin:

[Zombimode]

There is a large range of weapons that can easily defeat a tank's armor. Surely tanks are an anachronism in today's world. (And yet, tanks see continued use and play a vital role is most militaries).

A human with an automatic rifle can be detected with advanced camareas and be killed by a gunship flying 1000 meters above the ground with simple "mouseklick". Sure basic infantry is totally obsolete. (And yet, basic infantry forms the basis of every military in the world).

Aircraft? Can be shot down with AA-missiles. Ananchronism.

Military bases? Industry? Population centers? Can be nuked. Anachronism.


Yeah, as you can tell, I'm not exactly impressed by the claim that walls are somehow unsuitable for a fantasy setting. Like every offensive and defensive system ever, either real or fantastic, walls and castles have advantages and disadvantages. There are always countermeasures. The existence of a countermeasure alone does not make the system obsolete. In late 16th/17th century europa traditional wall-defeating weaponry became so commonplace that a new paradigm for fortifications (the star-fort) arose and pretty much replaced all other types of fortifications. Does something similar need to happen in most fantasy settings? I don't know, making such judgements is not easy (and if you think it IS easy, you are most likely simplifying things). But 17th century europa is vastly different in scope and outlook then most fantasy settings. Making assumptions based on that period seem rather arbitrary.

Looking a few centuries earlier, smaller castles could not withstand the siege of an actual army. Still, these castles were maintained at least in part for their defensive properties. They were quite useful against smaller/irregular forces. For most fantasy settings I can imagine walls and traditional castles to be useful. Is the pressure of the countermeasures to high for walls to be sustainable? Is there any efficient alternative that doesn't auto-fold against a random goblin raid at an awkward moment?
I can't say. Or at least, I can't make a statement that is true for most settings. The answer is setting dependent. We need to establish a setting first.

[Mando Knight]

I wouldn't call them an anachronism, necessarily. It depends on the amount of magic in the setting. If every warring army has a wizard who can blast apart stone walls or fly troops over them without issue, then obviously the days of stone fortifications are at an end and most such walls should be relics of a pre-mage-war past, and modern defenses would be simpler walls and fences designed to keep out wandering intruders coupled with things to identify enemy mages so as the defense's mages can deal with them.

If those mages are rare, or if they need to expend significant resources to do so, walls are effective for the simple reason that they're more-or-less permanent and do a very good job at stopping not-mages. In effect, the mages are merely another form of siege, like catapults and cannons, and if the attacker has fewer and/or weaker siege options than the fortress is designed to withstand, the attack is generally ineffective.

[Shining Wrath]

Walls are pretty cheap and easy to construct (especially if you have a Wizard and a trap of Mage's Lucubration on hand) so you might as well throw them up around settlements and defensive outposts of all kinds (at least unless you have a specific reason not to in a given situation).

They don't do much (if anything) against intelligent enemies that are specifically targeting the protected location or are of even moderate level but they do significantly slow down (or even halt outright) a lot of the unintelligent wildlife that makes D&D worlds death worlds for the vast majority of the population.

And how much do they cost compared to a few dozen guards and one cleric who can cost Augury? Depends on the setting.

[bjoern]

And how much do they cost compared to a few dozen guards and one cleric who can cost Augury? Depends on the setting.

It does depend on setting.

Most settings, walls are helpful even if they're arent a cure-all.

In a setting where all living (and unliving) creatures have:
Su: walk through any wall

And

Never attacks when you arent looking.

Then yeah, walls would be pointless there.

[Emperor Tippy]

That spell is personal-range, how is a trap going to cast it on a character?

Technically nothing in the rules prevents personal range spells from being used effectively by traps. Just like nothing stops rings (as one example) from using them.

If you want to rule otherwise though, make it a trap of Occular Spell Mage's Lucubration. Solves the "problem".


And how much do they cost compared to a few dozen guards and one cleric who can cost Augury? Depends on the setting.

Nothing really? A 9th level Wizard can wall a city in less than a day if they really want to.

[Killer Angel]

There is a large range of weapons that can easily defeat a tank's armor. Surely tanks are an anachronism in today's world. (And yet, tanks see continued use and play a vital role is most militaries).

A human with an automatic rifle can be detected with advanced camareas and be killed by a gunship flying 1000 meters above the ground with simple "mouseklick". Sure basic infantry is totally obsolete. (And yet, basic infantry forms the basis of every military in the world).

Aircraft? Can be shot down with AA-missiles. Ananchronism.

Military bases? Industry? Population centers? Can be nuked. Anachronism.


Yeah, as you can tell, I'm not exactly impressed by the claim that walls are somehow unsuitable for a fantasy setting.

While I agree with you, the scope of this thread should be to discuss "how do you create magical defences which perform better than curtain walls in defending a location and with low resources?"

[Gnoman]

Nothing really? A 9th level Wizard can wall a city in less than a day if they really want to.

It isn't at all necessary to use magic to keep wall cost down, either. A hoarde of unskilled peasants (who, after all, are protecting themselves as well) to do the mundane lifting and carrying needed, with a couple of skilled experts to tell them how to shape the bricks and where to place them, would cost virtually nothing (other than the cost of having those peasants out of the economy for a few months) besides food and a pittance of coin.

[BRC]

While I agree with you, the scope of this thread should be to discuss "how do you create magical defences which perform better than curtain walls in defending a location and with low resources?"

Well, first of all, Use a Curtain Wall.

Yes, I know what you're saying, but just because there are ways AROUND a curtain wall does not mean that such a wall is irrelevant. In fact, it's still useful, since it limits you're enemy's approach, or requires them to expend resources bypassing it. So it's still useful.

In terms of "Low resources", I'll stick to mundane, and low-level magic stuff. Remember, there are no perfect defenses.
So, once you've got your wall set up, there are four ways an enemy can deal with it, they can go Over, Under, Up, or Through.
Going Over means Flight. So, what you'll want is some permanent Dancing Light spells in the sky to illuminate anybody trying to fly in. Once spotted, you can deploy your own fliers, or use ranged attacks.
A spell that might be useful is Daze Monster, which will prevent the target from taking actions including Move actions, which would cause them to fall. Although this caps out at 7hd.

Under is perhaps the hardest to defend against, but Curtain Walls are not especially weak to it. I guess one method would be to construct a "Buffer" basement under your fortress, perhaps filled with something like oozes and otherwise totally sealed off. A Burrower will dig there way into that basement and have no way to progress further up. No doors or ladders or anything. You just build it, dump the oozes down there, and seal it up.


Up would mean Spider Climb (or just a really good climb check), perhaps combined with Invisibility, this one is trickier. Put some sort of moat or trap immedietally below the wall to discourage climbers, and have rocks ready to drop on anybody. Also, line the top of the wall with spikes or blades so that a climber cannot get a grip on the top of the wall. Put Permanent Alarm spells at the bottom of the Moat, this will detect infiltrators, while at the same time not being constantly set off by your guards/servants, or requiring you to give everybody the password (Thus increasing the chance of the intruders getting it).


Through. There's no real way to stop a powerful enough mage just blasting down your wall. However, you CAN make it difficult for them.

Set up a second wall, perhaps a palisade made out of wood, outside your moat.
like this:
[Wall][Moat][Palisade].
Disintegrate (The go-to spell for taking down a wall) will only disintegrate the first object it hits. Thus, your hypothetical wizard will need to waste a disintegrate spell (Or use some other method) to break through the thin Palisade wall before they can target your curtain wall. In addition, the wording of the Disintegrate spell says that it only affects the first Object it hits. If I'm reading that correctly, it would not be unreasonable to assume that if you hung a curtain or large piece of fabric or canvas from your wall, that would count as an "Object". A disentigrate spell that was fired would strike the cloth, disintegrate a 10 foot cube of it (The cloth is thin, so a 10 ft cube would go a very long way) without touching the Stone. Hang the "Screen" from struts sticking out from the wall, so there is a buffer of air between the Screen and the Wall to ensure that the spell treats the thin, cheap curtain as a separate Object from the Wall itself.

Yes, the enemy could get rid of your curtain, but once again that expends more resources.



Also, construct your fortress not as a square castle, but in the style of the gunpowder-era Star Forts, designed to face enemies with weapons capable of breaching a curtain wall. A star fortress forces the enemy to either breach at the "Angle" (thus forcing them to brave the crossfire between two of the Points) or into a Point (The providing another chokepoint before they can reach the center)

[eggynack]

Nothing really? A 9th level Wizard can wall a city in less than a day if they really want to.
Pretty much this. In any world with reasonable quantities of magic, putting up a wall is so trivial that it should be part of the defense of any permanent fortification of any import. In any world without reasonable quantities of magic, for whatever reason, putting up a wall might possibly be less trivial, but it becomes far more important, because magic is what was making a stone wall so easy to break through in the first place.

[nedz]

I think that people are confusing Curtain walls with basic security walls/fences. IRL: We still build the latter today, the former - not so much; not since the arrival of gunpowder really.

The ideas we have which sort of work

Dungeon (Bunker)
Spells — automated through Traps or Turrets — magical BC really
Basic walls — low level threats only



Other ideas which should work include

Plants — e.g. Magical forest, where animated trees can stop fliers
Mobile patrols — e.g. Animals (possibly flying), Guards, Animated objects etc.


But none of these are Castles.

[BRC]

I think that people are confusing Curtain walls with basic security walls/fences. IRL: We still build the latter today, the former - not so much; not since the arrival of gunpowder really.

The ideas we have which sort of work

Dungeon (Bunker)
Spells — automated through Traps or Turrets — magical BC really
Basic walls — low level threats only



Other ideas which should work include

Plants — e.g. Magical forest, where animated trees can stop fliers
Mobile patrols — e.g. Animals (possibly flying), Guards, Animated objects etc.


But none of these are Castles.
What about star forts. I can type up a longer thing later, but in real life star forts were the response to cannons that could knock down a castle wall. I don't see why they wouldn't work just as well here

[eggynack]

I think that people are confusing Curtain walls with basic security walls/fences. IRL: We still build the latter today, the former - not so much; not since the arrival of gunpowder really.

Ultimately, there is very little difference in how much effort it takes to put together different varieties of wall. Thus, which wall structure is best depends just about entirely on how good it is at defending stuff, and very little on how difficult it is to create. This is, I would suspect, a pretty big difference between the way our world operates and the way a D&D world would operate.

[Gnoman]

What about star forts. I can type up a longer thing later, but in real life star forts were the response to cannons that could knock down a castle wall. I don't see why they wouldn't work just as well here

You're confusing two seperate developments, which happened at an identical time historically primarily because nobody thought to seriously question fort design until they were forced to. The star fort itself has little to do with the vulnerability (or lack thereof) to gunpoweder, it was simply a way of reshaping the outline of the fort to maximize crossfire on an attacking enemy. It's the redesigned walls that were used in such forts that were the responce to cannon, and that only came about because curtain walls are particularly vulnerable to cannon. The improved walls take just as much labor to build (in fact, they require more trained labor, marginally fewer resources, and are superior to the older type only against cannon, providing no benefit against most magical attacks. For that matter, due to their low design, they'd be markedly inferior to the sort of low-tech horde that is a fixture in low-to-medium power DND. To use an example from the comic, if Azure city had such a wall, it would have probably fallen in less than a tenth of the time.

High, straight walls with towers are perfect for keeping out massed forces of orcs, goblins, barbarians, or other typical threats, while anything that can bypass them will bypass ANY nonmagical defense you can come up with.

[BRC]

But the layout of a star fort, combined with pre-gunpowder style curtain walls, also makes it a superior layout for dealing with a force capable of breaking down your walls with magic. A spell capable of bringing down a wall is a significant resource investment.

[Gnoman]

The main advantage of a star fort is the extreme amount of crossfire it can bring on an attacker, which depends on powerful and massed ranged weapons. It's an open question whether bows and crossbows offer enough ranged punch to provide that.

[BRC]

The main advantage of a star fort is the extreme amount of crossfire it can bring on an attacker, which depends on powerful and massed ranged weapons. It's an open question whether bows and crossbows offer enough ranged punch to provide that.

Not just that.

A Star Fort also serves to help contain or channel enemies who breach the wall.

Breaching the wall on one of the "Points" of the star means the defenders can work from a second, interior line of defense between the breached section and the central courtyard. Breaching directly into the middle courtyard means taking crossfire from two "points" of defenders as you head towards the breach.

[Khatoblepas]

If you want to rule otherwise though, make it a trap of Occular Spell Mage's Lucubration. Solves the "problem".

I don't think that's what Ocular Spell is supposed to d-


Only ray spells and spells with a target other than personal can be cast as ocular spells.

Damnit, WoTC. Why didn't you say "With a range other than personal"? Everyone knows what you mean, but they'll just ignore that line!

Also, interestingly enough, in 2e, Wall of Iron and Wall of Stone weren't Instantaneous, but Permanent, and could be destroyed with Dispel Magic, which made actual, you know, building a lot more important, since Wizards could just Dispel the walls of a magically created building. It's actually rather a shame that they changed that.

[nedz]

Not just that.

A Star Fort also serves to help contain or channel enemies who breach the wall.

Breaching the wall on one of the "Points" of the star means the defenders can work from a second, interior line of defense between the breached section and the central courtyard. Breaching directly into the middle courtyard means taking crossfire from two "points" of defenders as you head towards the breach.

Medieval castles had similar defences: towers which jut out from the walls, moats, baileys, machicolations. These were designed with bows and crossbows in mind.

Star forts arose because the walls were required to be thicker, and less brittle, to resist cannon. The outer works were there because canon had longer ranges.

None of these designs help with spells.

[Killer Angel]

Well, first of all, Use a Curtain Wall.

Yes, I know what you're saying, but just because there are ways AROUND a curtain wall does not mean that such a wall is irrelevant. In fact, it's still useful, since it limits you're enemy's approach, or requires them to expend resources bypassing it. So it's still useful.

In terms of "Low resources", I'll stick to mundane, and low-level magic stuff. Remember, there are no perfect defenses.

Quantity has a quality all its own.
I'd like to build lots of fortifications: with a single initial investment (Lyre of Building), you can have many castles and walls, quicker, cheaper and better than standard constructions. And impervious to magic.

[ngilop]

Over in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367045-Anachronistic-Inventions-in-a-Medieval-Fantasy-Setting) thread I argued that Curtain walls are an anachronism.

Now not everyone bought this argument, which is fine, and I'm not interested in re-hashing the debate.

The question I have is how do you create magical defences which perform better than curtain walls in defending a location ?
This is so that castles can be replaced in a setting by magical defences which are better than curtain walls.

Lower resource usage is good, so minimal spell levels etc., because cost benefit analysis — although building castles is not cheap.
Consideration of how to counter the defences is also important, because in any setting with verisimilitude an arms race will be in place.

SO curtain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtain_wall_(castle)) walls (http://curtainkorol.com/curtain-wall-on-a-castle/) are an anachronism (http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Curtain_wall_(fortification))?


that's news (http://www.factualworld.com/article/Curtain_wall_(fortification)) to me (http://www.potiori.com/Curtain_wall_(fortification).html).