[3.5e] Mage Reaper (Killer) optimization with limitations

[eagerbeaver]

Hi!

I've read lots of stuff and I know that the Mage Killer is a very common request. Despite of that I try to get some help here, because i haven't found what I'm looking for. Yet.

Limitations

Only core and supplement rulebooks (no campaign settings)
Absolutely no Psionics
18-20 levels including LA and everything
No or minimal magic usage (no arcane at all)


Motivation, background
The character and/or her family/society were abused by spell casters (mostly arcane) and revenge is sweet but being in the shadows is a must. She has to be quiet and quick and absolutely not recognizable or a knockout. She focuses on Hide and Move Silently. Extraordinary is better because of antimagic and SR. She's not good at long encounters but can kill in a blink of an eye.

My ideas so far

Race: Whisper Gnome (Races of Stone)
Template: Necropolitan(Libris Mortis), Dark (Tome of Magic)
Feats: Darkstalker (Lords of Madness), Mindsight (Lords of Madness), Lifesense (Libris Mortis), Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion)
Materials for equipment: Shadow Silk and Shadow Striking
More feats: Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection (all Complete Arcane) and these are the reason why magic usage should be minimum to none.


What I'm not sure of

Classes (I think about Rouge/Assassin but also Factotum)
Feats: Will or Fort saves from INT instead of WIS or CON?
Way (beside Hold Person/Monster) to render target helpless for Coup de Grace?
How to put these and other ideas together to have a solid build.


I know it's quite a mess but I hope some of you will have ideas to share.

Thanks!

[KingAtomsk]

Ctrl+f "anti-mage"

There are a million threads on the subject.

[Vhaidara]

Ctrl+f "anti-mage"

There are a million threads on the subject.

And every one of them that doesn't cast spells gets laughed off. Because you can't compete with spelcasters without spellcasting.

1. How are you qualifying for Mindsight?
2. Mage Slayer line is actually quite bad.
3. My recommendations would be to focus on ToB. The strongest for your goal would probably be Crusader/Cloistered Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator, which gets significant casting and easy Knowledge Devotion (Trade CC free Knowledge Domain for it)

[Zanos]

And every one of them that doesn't cast spells gets laughed off. Because you can't compete with spelcasters without spellcasting.

1. How are you qualifying for Mindsight?
2. Mage Slayer line is actually quite bad.
3. My recommendations would be to focus on ToB. The strongest for your goal would probably be Crusader/Cloistered Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator, which gets significant casting and easy Knowledge Devotion (Trade CC free Knowledge Domain for it)
Mage slayer is good if you can get reach and the casters your DM runs aren't heavily optimized. If you optimize a mage-slayer pretty well and the DM has wizards throw fireballs and shoot longbows with quickened true strikes(the actual strategy of a level 20 wizard fighting a Balor in a WoTC caimpaign), then you should be pretty good at killing them.

How are spellcasters usually run in your group, OP?

[eagerbeaver]

And every one of them that doesn't cast spells gets laughed off. Because you can't compete with spelcasters without spellcasting.

1. How are you qualifying for Mindsight?
2. Mage Slayer line is actually quite bad.
3. My recommendations would be to focus on ToB. The strongest for your goal would probably be Crusader/Cloistered Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator, which gets significant casting and easy Knowledge Devotion (Trade CC free Knowledge Domain for it)

As I said I had only ideas and wanted to discuss the building process with more experienced folks. According to the background of the character I'd stick to remain magic-less. I know it's the hardest path and that's why I'd like her to be as unnoticable as she can. Divine magic is not as bad as the arcane one, so it is a solid plan B.

[Vhaidara]

How are spellcasters usually run in your group, OP?

Well, this is the single most important question. If they're run at low optimization, you have a chance without magic. Mid and higher, you run into the problem that no Caster of your level will ever leave his personal demiplane, interacting with the world through his Astral Projection. This means that to kill them, you are required to be able to plane-hop, which doesn't happen without magic.

[eagerbeaver]

Mage slayer is good if you can get reach and the casters your DM runs aren't heavily optimized. If you optimize a mage-slayer pretty well and the DM has wizards throw fireballs and shoot longbows with quickened true strikes(the actual strategy of a level 20 wizard fighting a Balor in a WoTC caimpaign), then you should be pretty good at killing them.

How are spellcasters usually run in your group, OP?

The casters are not heavily optimized that's sure. Fireballs yes, True Strike arrows no, but DM use to have some battlefield control arcane casters. The story is in a city, so being stealthy is a plus I think.

[Red Fel]

Two things occur to me. It takes a caster to stop a caster. I know, the classic "play a Wizard" refrain is old and tired, but there is a reason for that; assuming your target is remotely capable at his job (e.g. casting spells), he will have substantially more options available than you, a non-caster, will have. So while I appreciate that you say "no or minimal" magic, you're going to need a lot more than that. Take a look at this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items). This is a list of various conditions that can ruin your character, and the various items you'll want or need to bypass them. You will need these, because a caster has ways to impose almost all of the ailments listed, and can probably fly, and teleport, and scry, and he can do all of that without necessarily relying on items. You, on the other hand, will be avoiding magic; it's dangerous to go alone, take these.
As others have said, there are many threads on the same subject. They boil down to the same general lesson: If you assume Playground-level optimization, a Tier 1-2 caster will destroy a non-caster, full stop. A Tier 3 caster may have some trouble, but will probably win.

You're going to need a combat style that involves an immediate, prompt attack that completely disables or kills a caster outright. You will lose a protracted battle. Either the caster will recover his wits and BFC you into the ground, or he'll retreat to a secure location, prepare for you, scry you, and kill you in your sleep. Your only real chance is to catch him by surprise, hit him fast, and bury him in basically the first round.

[toapat]

And every one of them that doesn't cast spells gets laughed off. Because you can't compete with spelcasters without spellcasting.

actually, depends on how RAW you want to take the game.

I havent found more then 1 thing that can find/hit someone using Towershields as total cover while having Mindblank, immunity to Sonic, and Flight (any). I forgot what that 1 thing was as well

1: We now have Virtual immunity to anything a wizard can do to us, due to either Lack of detection (all perception is jammed, as is divination. Our concealment is a perfectly mundane pocket dimension)

2: We need a way to move, and win innitiative from Shieldspace without leaving Shieldspace

[Vhaidara]

Dark Template is good, but I recommend against necroolitan. Your Will save will be weak, and wizards can **** up undead with a few specific spells

For Feats, consider the following (dip a level of swordsage as level 9, it makes things a lot simpler. This isn't mentioned on the below builds)
1. Weapon Finesse
3. Darkstalker
6. TWF
9. Shadow Blade
12. Craven
15. Mage Slayer
18. Something

Weapon of choice is Short Swords, since they are Shadow Hand weapons

For classes, I would say you have a few options

1. Straight Factotum. This is the most magical of the options I'm going to list. You want to take Font of Inspiration as much as possible, and just Nova him down by using Cunning Surge to get into position and dropping Cunning Strike as many times as possible. Take TWF and buy Gloves of the Balanced Hand

2. Factotum/Assassin. Forces you to be Evil, but has some really awesome Int synergy

3. Ranger. Complete Mage introduced Favored Enemy (Arcanists). No matter what, a level dip in this is both flavorful and useful.

4. Rogue/Swashbuckler. This comes in several flavors of cheese, depending on how liberal you can be with rules interpretations. All of these work off of Daring Outlaw (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/daring-outlaw--508/). They should also be combined with TWF and Gloves of the Balanced Hand
4a. Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) Fighter 3/Swashbuckler 3/Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) Rogue X. This is the cheesiest. By RAW, Daring Outlaw gives you Sneak Attack as a Rogue of level (Rogue level + Swashbuckler level). By qualifying for DO with SA Fighter (Thug is for more skill points), you can take Feat Rogue. Now, you get both SA and bonus feats from your rogue levels.
4b. Rogue 3/Swashbuckler X. This is the more combatative chassis. You get a better hit die and higher BAB, and some special Crit riders.
4c. Swashbuckler 3/Rogue X. More skill based. You lose HP and BAB, but pick up Rogue Talents.

5. Swordsage X. Swordsage is a good class. You would be focusing on Diamond Mind (Counters to replace your saves) and Shadow Hand (Assassination maneuvers), with a few Tiger Claw if you can spare them (mobility and TWF). Maybe go unarmed swordsage and go into Shadow Sun Ninja, which makes you really good when blinded.

[Lanson]

actually, depends on how RAW you want to take the game.

I havent found more then 1 thing that can find/hit someone using Towershields as total cover while having Mindblank, immunity to Sonic, and Flight (any). I forgot what that 1 thing was as well

1: We now have Virtual immunity to anything a wizard can do to us, due to either Lack of detection (all perception is jammed, as is divination. Our concealment is a perfectly mundane pocket dimension)

2: We need a way to move, and win innitiative from Shieldspace with out leaving Shieldspace

Tower shield explicitly states it does not grant cover from targeted spells, they can target you through your shield.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Any halfway competent caster can get immunity to being flat footed. If he's paranoid enough he will be immune to surprise, too. Also his initiative will be higher than a mundanes in most cases, if he doesn't just use Celerity or a similar option.
The only way to kill a competent caster is by tricking him into entering a situation that his contingencies won't get him out of, which ranges in difficulty from pretty damn hard to nearly impossible, depending on his paranoia/preparedness.

Most DMs don't really use competent casters as opposition though, so you can usually get by fairly well as long as you have stealth, enough first-strike capability to kill him in a single round and the means to negate the most common countermeasures.
Stuff like immediate-action teleportation, which is ridiculously easy to get for anyone, Concealment and some way to prevent being scryed on will suffice against most cases in practice.

One tactic with a very high chance of success is finding a way to reliably inflict the daze condition, since defenses against it are pretty rare. Nausea works too but its easier to get immune to.
That's all assuming the mage won't just use Celerity and then flee at the first sign of trouble (if he has a way to act when flat footed or outright immunity) and that you can get close enough to attack him in the first place, of course.

[Forrestfire]

Tower shield explicitly states it does not grant cover from targeted spells, they can target you through your shield.

While that is true, because you have total cover, you are perfectly able to hide. Once you're hidden, they can't target you because they don't have line of sight to target the spell with. You'll presumably want darkstalker to keep them from tremorsensing you, and you also need a way around mindsight and touchsight (I'm not sure there is one), but it works against most things.

EDIT: Mindsight doesn't do anything but pinpoint you, thankfully, so they still can't target you with spells as long as you're still hidden, on account of the lack of sight. Touchsight doesn't find anything because they don't have line of effect.

EDIT 2: They can Flaming Sphere you to death, though, so be sure to get immune to all the elements to deal with energy substituted Flaming Spheres.