3.5 character build

[jabberwocky9]

What would be the best character build that is capable of fighting, sneaking, and arcane casting under 20th level. I always felt that multi classing with basic classes is the best path and specific feats rounded the characterization. What say you?

[Rebel7284]

High power:

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 1/Incantatrix 3/ Finish with more Incantatrix/Unseen Seer/Abjurant Champion/Arcane Trickster

Arcane Disciple[ War ] gets you persisted divine power.


Medium Power:
Factotum 8/Chameleon 10/x2

OR

Mystic Ranger 10 with Sword of the Arcane Order.

[eggynack]

Sticking arcane casting on the pile means that you'll do best if you stick with one class, or that class with prestige classes, for the most part. One of the best classes to do all three is a bard, especially if you push inspire courage, and maybe add in snowflake wardance but there are tons of other options if you want to emphasize one of the three parts over the others.

A factotum tends to be a bit heavier on the non-casting elements, though they definitely have enough casting to get by, a beguiler all about casting and sneaking, and you could probably work in hitting stuff if you need to, and you can always just run a straight wizard, purely focused on casting, with your punching and sneaking as an outgrowth of that. There are other ways to pull this stuff off, but those are some of the basic elements of the style, and should get you reasonably far before you start wanting to delve deeper into PrC and build stuff.

[jabberwocky9]

High power:

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 1/Incantatrix 3/ Finish with more Incantatrix/Unseen Seer/Abjurant Champion/Arcane Trickster
"Fascinating." "Will look into it." "Thanks."
Arcane Disciple[ War ] gets you persisted divine power.


Medium Power:
Factotum 8/Chameleon 10/x2

OR

Mystic Ranger 10 with Sword of the Arcane Order.

Where can I find Mystic Ranger and Sword of the Arcane Order?

[jabberwocky9]

Sticking arcane casting on the pile means that you'll do best if you stick with one class, or that class with prestige classes, for the most part. One of the best classes to do all three is a bard, especially if you push inspire courage, and maybe add in snowflake wardance but there are tons of other options if you want to emphasize one of the three parts over the others.

A factotum tends to be a bit heavier on the non-casting elements, though they definitely have enough casting to get by, a beguiler all about casting and sneaking, and you could probably work in hitting stuff if you need to, and you can always just run a straight wizard, purely focused on casting, with your punching and sneaking as an outgrowth of that. There are other ways to pull this stuff off, but those are some of the basic elements of the style, and should get you reasonably far before you start wanting to delve deeper into PrC and build stuff.

I was pondering on adding Duskblade, remotely Warlock, along with variant Rogue and Battle sorcerer, later Abjurant Champion.

[Rebel7284]

Where can I find Mystic Ranger and Sword of the Arcane Order?

Ranger: Dragon 336.
It only goes up to 5th level spells, but until then, has the same progression as a sorcerer.
Great choice if you think the game won't go very far into high levels.

http://dndtools.eu/feats/champions-of-valor--28/sword-of-the-arcane-order--2875/

[nedz]

Ah the old Fighter/Magic User/Thief.

There are several options but they are always a compromise.
Fighter is just BAB + Feats + HP + Weapon Profs
Magic user is just arcane caster levels
Thief is just skills + trapfinding, well maybe sneak + evasion too.

You can build Barbarians or Rangers to do trapfinding, these also have the Fighter bits and some skills. Rangers can do Arcane spells, but they're a bit rubbish at them. Mystic Rangers are poor at melee and limited to 5th level spells.
Duskblades do spells + combat, but not skills or traps
Beguilers do skills, traps and spells, but definitely not combat.

The real trouble though is that the hybrid PrCs you need to advance spellcasting either advance BAB or Skills, so you must compromise.

[Xerlith]

Can't you just go DFI bard?

Or, for more fanciful stuff, Bard 6/Swordsage 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Sublime Chord 2/JPM +8. Ninth level spells, stealth capabilities, melee combat... I think it fits the bill. Grab Able Learner and go to town. Bit low on skillpoints, sadly. Which is why you go human anyway.

[Fax Celestis]

Here's a weird one.

Swashbuckler 3/Beguiler 2/Unseen Seer 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Unseen Seer +8

You'll need to drop a feat on Martial Study (some Shadow Hand maneuver) and another on Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) to get into Unseen Seer, plus one more on Combat Casting before 8th level to meet AbjCham's requirements. Other than that your feats are wide open, though you'll probably want to put one on Practiced Spellcaster (Beguiler). If you do, you'll have 8d10+2d6+10d4 HP (ave 76), BAB +16/+11/+6/+1, CL 14+4 (+7 for divinations), 7th level beguiler spells, Int-based arcane casting, Int to damage with finessable weapons (and free Weapon Finesse), Arcane Boost from AbjCham 4, 6d6 sneak attack, three advanced learnings (divination spells off of any list, so hunter's eye is a great candidate), and permanent nondetection. Bonus points if you can get the Arcane Stunt swashbuckler ACF from PHB-II. The Arcane Strike feat would also be a great way to get some extra damage in there.

You get to cast in light armor with no ASF, get invisibility and other sneaky spells on your list, and some other goodies. Dump all your points into Int, then Dex, then Con. Wield a rapier and a darkwood buckler (no ASF, no ACP), go to town. No, it isn't the most powerful build out there, but it sounds like it's right up your alley.

[jabberwocky9]

Ah the old Fighter/Magic User/Thief.

There are several options but they are always a compromise.
Fighter is just BAB + Feats + HP + Weapon Profs
Magic user is just arcane caster levels
Thief is just skills + trapfinding, well maybe sneak + evasion too.

You can build Barbarians or Rangers to do trapfinding, these also have the Fighter bits and some skills. Rangers can do Arcane spells, but they're a bit rubbish at them. Mystic Rangers are poor at melee and limited to 5th level spells.
Duskblades do spells + combat, but not skills or traps
Beguilers do skills, traps and spells, but definitely not combat.

The real trouble though is that the hybrid PrCs you need to advance spellcasting either advance BAB or Skills, so you must compromise.

Ahh yes, indeed. The old Fighter/Mage/Thief. That's why in my opinion that the basic of all basics is the best path. Prc's never complimented the full abilities. I was looking to see a colorful character make-up class produced from you intelligent beings. I'm not worthy. Appreciate gladly!

[jabberwocky9]

Thanks guys for the response. Keep them coming! I would be happier if the DM would let me use Tome of Battle. Currently running Fighter 1/ Rogue 4/ Psion 3. Weak...

[Fax Celestis]

Thanks guys for the response. Keep them coming! I would be happier if the DM would let me use Tome of Battle. Currently running Fighter 1/ Rogue 4/ Psion 3. Weak...

If you're going to use psion, you should manifest control body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm) on yourself, though you'll need to use solicit psicrystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/solicitPsicrystal.htm) to concentrate on it for you.

Without ToB, my previous build can be amended to:

Swashbuckler 3/Beguiler 2/Spellthief 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Unseen Seer 8

You'll need to pick up Master Spellthief, but you're up two feats anyway because you didn't spend them on Martial Study/Martial Stance.

[sideswipe]

its not arcane... but cloistered cleric with the trickery domain?

DMM persist divine power = full base attack
reasonable access to feats and abilities through the other domain.
lots of skill points
a full casting side

combat, skills, casting

[Socratov]

A variant of the bard:

Bard 8/virtuoso 2/Sublime chord 2/virtuoso 8

Take the Bardic Knack ACF, the feats DFI, Jack of all trades and Snowflake Wardance. You have enough skillpoints to get the prerequisites and have some left to be good at some things, Bardic Knack will do the rest in concert with Jack of All Trades to make you an excellent skillmonkey. Sublime chord casting, so you are a sorcerer light, and you have Snowflake Wardance and DFI to give you the power to hit and deal damage.

[jabberwocky9]

If you're going to use psion, you should manifest control body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm) on yourself, though you'll need to use solicit psicrystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/solicitPsicrystal.htm) to concentrate on it for you.

Without ToB, my previous build can be amended to:

Swashbuckler 3/Beguiler 2/Spellthief 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Unseen Seer 8

You'll need to pick up Master Spellthief, but you're up two feats anyway because you didn't spend them on Martial Study/Martial Stance.

"what feats you suggests? I labeled 2 wpn fighting, combat casting, improve initiative, daring outlaw."

[Fax Celestis]

Daring Outlaw is useless in that build, as is Two-Weapon Fighting.

You need Combat Casting for prerequisites.

Smiting Spell will let you deliver a touch spell through a melee attack, and Rapid Metamagic will let you do that without an increased casting time, though you won't be able to get that until 9th level. Arcane Strike will up your to-hit and damage for sacrificing a spell slot, and it's worthwhile. Darkstalker will make you effectively invisible even to creatures with blindsight and tremorsense: couple with actual invisibility and no one will ever be able to find you. Craven and Telling Blow will let you get your sneak attack off more often and with more viable damage.

Take the spellthief levels first, then beguiler, then swashbuckler.

Human: Combat Casting
1st: Telling Blow
3rd: Craven
6th: Darkstalker
9th: Arcane Strike
12th: Master Spellthief
15th: Rapid Metamagic
18th: Quicken Spell


Would be my recommendations.

[Seharvepernfan]

How does my swiftblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16634330&postcount=19) compare to some of these options?

[jabberwocky9]

Daring Outlaw is useless in that build, as is Two-Weapon Fighting.

You need Combat Casting for prerequisites.

Smiting Spell will let you deliver a touch spell through a melee attack, and Rapid Metamagic will let you do that without an increased casting time, though you won't be able to get that until 9th level. Arcane Strike will up your to-hit and damage for sacrificing a spell slot, and it's worthwhile. Darkstalker will make you effectively invisible even to creatures with blindsight and tremorsense: couple with actual invisibility and no one will ever be able to find you. Craven and Telling Blow will let you get your sneak attack off more often and with more viable damage.

Take the spellthief levels first, then beguiler, then swashbuckler.

Human: Combat Casting
1st: Telling Blow
3rd: Craven
6th: Darkstalker
9th: Arcane Strike
12th: Master Spellthief
15th: Rapid Metamagic
18th: Quicken Spell


Would be my recommendations.

Ok, let's see if I can get this right. STR 14; DEX 16; CON 10 INT 19; WIS 12; CHA 14. Spellthief 2, Beguiler 2, Swashbuckler 3, Abjerant Champion 1.

[Fax Celestis]

Id switch Wis and Con, but other than that looks fine.

[jabberwocky9]

Id switch Wis and Con, but other than that looks fine.

Telling blow? Having a rapier would be nice with an improve crit range. Arcane strike? Unable to cast 3rd level spells as a prerequisite. Craven...kinda of ok. Daring Outlaw; lvls stack for grace class feature, Dodge bonus, and sneaks attacks. Wis gives me xtra ability modifier for Listen, sense motive, and spot. I get full HP but losing 1 per level. That's a toss up. Two weapon fighting - wouldn't it give me an xtra sneak attack? Smiting spell sounds pretty good.

[heavyfuel]

Also going in support of the Bard. With Snowflake Wardance and DFI you can be a melee monster that can cast spells and a good amount of skill points. I feel Bards are usually seen as underpowered, but they really really aren't, and they seem to fit the theme you want quite nicely.



Mystic Ranger 10 with Sword of the Arcane Order.

Mystic Ranger doens't work with Sword of the Arcane Order because that only applies to Rangers, not Mystic Rangers which are different classes, even though Mystic Ranger is a variant Ranger

[Fax Celestis]

Telling blow? Having a rapier would be nice with an improve crit range. Arcane strike? Unable to cast 3rd level spells as a prerequisite. Craven...kinda of ok. Daring Outlaw; lvls stack for grace class feature, Dodge bonus, and sneaks attacks. Wis gives me xtra ability modifier for Listen, sense motive, and spot. I get full HP but losing 1 per level. That's a toss up. Two weapon fighting - wouldn't it give me an xtra sneak attack? Smiting spell sounds pretty good.

Daring Outlaw stacks swashbuckler with rogue, not with anything else. You have no rogue levels.

[jabberwocky9]

Daring Outlaw stacks swashbuckler with rogue, not with anything else. You have no rogue levels.

Agree...I somehow blocked that out and focused on the prerequisite. Maybe I can get away w/ it with the DM. Hey thanks. I believe I got what I came for. A unique character w/ your help of course. Next up...Dervish, Kensai, weaponmaster?