How common are undead?

[Dalebert]

Particularly the intelligent ones. I have a lot of them in my game. In the game I'm in, we're about to hit level 7 and haven't encountered a single intelligent undead. Seems odd. Our first adventure was undead themed but we were low level and it was all mindless undead.

[Duke of Urrel]

The dungeon master is in charge of the world, which means that the DM also decides how common Undead are.

How should the DM make this decision?

1. The rule of fun is probably the most important consideration. You want an adventure with Undead, so you put Undead in the way of player-characters. Let the fun ensue!

2. The second-most important consideration is flavorful fluff. I think players enjoy Undead more when they appear for a reason, and not just at random.

3. The third-most important consideration may be general plausibility. On the one hand, if there are too many Undead, it's hard to understand how any living creatures can survive long without becoming either dead or somebody's spawn. On the other hand, if Undead are extremely rare, it's hard to explain why clerics and paladins are so well trained to deal with them.

EDIT: You might want to check out this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?368537-Why-Common-Sense-Has-No-Point-In-Gaming-Population-Growth).

[The Insanity]

Depend on the setting and individual DMs.

[deuxhero]

I think undead tend to be very polar in their appearance. Either they are EVERYWHERE in a campaign or not seen a lot.

[Phelix-Mu]

Many of the sentient races have some stigma or other against common association with the dead, be it taboos against necrophagism/necrophilia, purification rituals surrounding burial, superstitions about the restless dead, or what have you. Much of this extends to the undead being feared, hated, and hunted. The RAW justification of this varies by type of undead, but the fluff is pretty uniform (with some exceptions in places like Eberron, Thay, etc).

Much of those beliefs appear to be located in a vacuum, almost entirely isolated from the fact that a not insignificant number of people in the world use (or perhaps could use) undead as minions, animate them with magic, or resort to undeath as a practical measure to mitigate the constraints of mortality. One might more sensibly think that, if becoming a necropolitan were a piece of niche research that had been around for ages, that eventually there would be enough necropolitans (especially non-adventuring ones that are more likely to rack up some serious years) that many people would be familiar with their existence.

But, regardless of this, the presentation of undead in the core books is decidedly as unnatural creatures that stalk the night, hunt the living, go bump, and otherwise need to be fought off by the brave and the bold. Not as useful minions or whatever. Some of the LM stuff backs this up, some of it (namely necropolitans) is counterpoint, but generally it is DM preference how to spin this stuff.

[Dalebert]

The reason it's so frustrating for me is I have a character who is built around enslaving undead (gravewalker). When I was deciding whether to play this character, I had involved discussions with the DM about how it's not worth it to go this route just for mindless undead. In fact, I could easily have a ton of mindless undead servants without picking the archetype which trades out a bunch of hexes for specific undead-related powers. All I'd have to do is pick the plague patron and I'd get spells like Command Undead and Animate Undead, etc. It's the more interesting undead that are ultimately the point, and in particular, being able to possess them with a special gravewalker hex eventually. It almost seems like he's trying to pointedly deprive me of the opportunity to get one into my arsenal which is very frustrating when I gave up so much for this archetype which still hasn't paid off.

[Phelix-Mu]

If the DM gave you the impression that this would be a viable path, but has since changed his/her tune, then that probably deserves an OOC discussion about whether you are missing some hints or if the DM has been inadvertently nerfing your concept. It may be some innocent oversight. Or, perhaps if the DM has since realized that your concept is not as viable as they anticipated (for whatever reason), then perhaps you and the DM can come to some agreement about a retraining/rebuilding quest or option, to promote your enjoyment of the game and increase your character's ability to contribute.

Although it is often hard to see, a DM usually has a very, very large number of concerns on their mind at any given time. So it might be best just to calmly remind the DM of your previous discussions, and inquire about future prospects. It's usually best to lead these discussions with some (honest) compliment to the DM about something you think he or she is doing correctly, as opposed to just launching into your own grievances; then, lead in from the compliment to how you think thing could be even better if....

Anyway, I hope things work out. As a DM, it is far more rewarding to work with a player to realize a full and vibrant concept for a given character, rather than having a bunch of cardboard-y or static people wandering around inside the plot.

[Duke of Urrel]

The reason it's so frustrating for me is I have a character who is built around enslaving undead (gravewalker).

Sorry, I didn't realize that you were one of the players. I guess only part of what I wrote above really matters, namely that "fun is probably the most important consideration." That holds true for everyone, players and DM alike.


Although it is often hard to see, a DM usually has a very, very large number of concerns on their mind at any given time. So it might be best just to calmly remind the DM of your previous discussions, and inquire about future prospects. It's usually best to lead these discussions with some (honest) compliment to the DM about something you think he or she is doing correctly, as opposed to just launching into your own grievances; then, lead in from the compliment to how you think thing could be even better if....

Everything Phelix-Mu wrote seems like excellent advice to me, but especially this passage. You know how your DM's world looks, and you know how it has developed so far. So you're in a good position to make some friendly suggestions about how the adventure could be even more fun, for you in particular. As always, "fun" does not necessarily mean "easy." Maintaining a retinue of enslaved Undead might entail some very "interesting" challenges!

Another important thing to consider is how the other players feel about your PC's ambitions. If they support you, then you have more influence over your DM, I think.

[Dalebert]

0Another important thing to consider is how the other players feel about your PC's ambitions. If they support you, then you have more influence over your DM, I think.

I made sure we weren't going to have any major conflicts over it when we were all making characters.