Who can beat Batman?

[Shadow of the Sun]

Now, we have a thread along this vein based around Superman, and a lot of people said that Batman could do it.

Now, I was wondering, within certain peramiters, who could beat Batman?

These peramiters are simple: No gods or beings with cheesed up superpowers (No Phoenix or Mister M, or any of their caliber.)

My two ideas are both from Marvel, and I think that both could take Batman if they really wanted too.

Number one, possibly the most dangerous person in the Marvel Universe- Bullseye. Bullseye one spat on of his teeth through a mans skull- if he so decided that he wanted Batman to die, Batman would be dead.

Number two is The Punisher: Marvels answer to Batman- a Batman with no problems with killing or torturing, or even more significant, fire-arms. The Punisher could, if he really wanted too, kill Batman with no real trouble.

Who do you think could beat Batman?

[Baalzebub]

The big advantage of Batman: give him 30 minutes and he can beat anyone you want.

Oh, and he beated Bullseye in Marvel vs DC and Punisher in JLA/Avengers comics.

But if a villian can stop Batman that'd be... Dr Doom, I guess.

[Shadow of the Sun]

If Batman beat Bullseye, the writer gimped Bullseye. Bullseye has killed a man with a toothpick from 400 feet away. He could look like an average citizen, whip out a freaking nickel and give Batman a makeshift lobotomy.

I'll give you the Punisher, though.

[Baalzebub]

Batman dodged the attacks from Bullseye much like Daredevil does. And he hits harder than Daredevil, as Bullseye said.

But if you put it that way, bullseye could have killed Daredevil long ago, and another "non-meta" heroes in the same manner. Anyway, Bullseye rocks, he's the best sniper I've seen.

[Logic]

The big advantage of Batman: give him 30 minutes and he can beat anyone you want.

Oh, and he beated Bullseye in Marvel vs DC and Punisher in JLA/Avengers comics.

But if a villian can stop Batman that'd be... Dr Doom, I guess.
No he can't. Because if all it took was 30 minutes to beat anyone, the DCU would live in near perfect harmony, because Batman would take care of everyone that could pose a threat. He is smart, and prepared, but he is not prepared for every situation that could possibly come along. He is prepared for the ones most likely to come to pass. If a villain shows up and Batman has to stop and "prepare" he isn't prepared. He is adjusting his strategy.

Like I have said before, Batman is the World's Greatest Detective, not the World's Greatest Psychic Time Traveler.

On the subject of people that could defeat him:
Definately: Blackbolt, Hulk, Iron Man, Reed Richards, Dr. Doom, Martian Manhunter, Flash, Quicksilver, Squirrel Girl
Probably: Juggernaut, Magneto, Professor Xavier, Wonder Woman
Possibly: Nightcrawler, Shadowcat, Green Lantern, Hellboy

Conditions of defeat: Batman loses. He has lost to lesser opponents before, but he has stopped their final plans. But that does not change the fact that he has been defeated. I left out the obvious DC characters that have managed to defeat Batman, or the ones left out due to the clause at the top.

[The Corinthian]

Why do you say Reed Richards would "definitely" defeat Batman, but Xavier only "Probably"? Xavier could probably get an easy win unless Batman got him in a prepared ambush. Anyway I don't see why Reed rates better than "Possibly"; he's brilliant, but so's Bruce. He has Tech, but at least when it comes to combat gear, Bruce is his equal. And he has his superpower, but Batman has near-superhuman martial arts skills, endurance and speed.

[Baalzebub]

Definately: Blackbolt, Hulk, Iron Man, Reed Richards, Dr. Doom, Martian Manhunter, Flash, Quicksilver, Squirrel Girl

Hey!! no beings with super cheesed up superpowers!! :smalltongue:

[StudlyDuck]

Batman would probably win, but I'd pay good money to see him take on Arcade.

[bingo_bob]

I'm pretty sure Doomsday would beat Batman. Eventually, at least.

[Logic]

Why do you say Reed Richards would "definitely" defeat Batman, but Xavier only "Probably"? Xavier could probably get an easy win unless Batman got him in a prepared ambush. Anyway I don't see why Reed rates better than "Possibly"; he's brilliant, but so's Bruce. He has Tech, but at least when it comes to combat gear, Bruce is his equal. And he has his superpower, but Batman has near-superhuman martial arts skills, endurance and speed.

Xavier only gets a "maybe" because his telepathy can only go so far. It is possible that Batman, through force of will alone would come out of whatever ol' Chuck could do. (pretty much only 2 things, mind control, or make him comatose and enter a dream state) My reference from this is actually taken from Batman the animated series, when Mad Hatter puts Batman into a dream state, and Batman figures out what is going on enough to wake up.

The other part that makes me think that Xavier gets only a maybe, is that I am pretty sure Bruce is paranoid about mind control, and if there is a defense he could put into his mask to shield his thoughts or prevent mind control, he has it. One part I definitely agree with on Batman being prepared. Whether or not it is probable, if he can defend himself against that, he is defending himself from that.

Reed is probably the mental equal of Lex Luthor, which is probably smarter than ol' Bats. Plus, he has superpowers that could immobilize Batman fairly quickly. Simply stretch himself to the point where he can grab Batman, and stretch himself into a giant sheet and cover Batman

[Closet_Skeleton]

I thought that, technically, Bane HAS beaten Batman.

Or do you mean, who could beat Batman and not have him come back for a rematch?

[Khantalas]

Bah! You can read in dreams.

[ElfLad]

Severus Snape.

[Logos7]

Red King Has Done It

[Sigil]

Doom (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031016) wins. (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031018)

[Balok]

On the subject of people that could defeat him:
Definately: Blackbolt, Hulk, Iron Man, Reed Richards, Dr. Doom, Martian Manhunter, Flash, Quicksilver, Squirrel Girl
Probably: Juggernaut, Magneto, Professor Xavier, Wonder Woman
Possibly: Nightcrawler, Shadowcat, Green Lantern, Hellboy
I disagree with Flash, Quicksilver, and Reed Richards. Remember that Batman has plans for defeating any member of the Justice League. We know these plans work, because Ra's al Ghul once stole and used them, and defeated the Justice League. If he can defeat Flash, he can defeat Quicksilver. If he can defeat Plastic Man or Elongated Man, he can defeat Reed Richards. For that reason, I'd have to move these folks down to the probably case. Martian Manhunter only stays in the definitely case because his fire weakness seems to come and go these years, and without it he's basically Superman class.

Juggernaut moves to the possibly case, because it depends on whether he tags Bats before Bats overpowers him. End of the day, Juggy is dumb as a bag of hammers and Batman fights smart.

Shadowcat moves to the no way in Hell case, unless she gets complete surprise, then she might overpower him. But he can easily dodge her otherwise clumsy (by comparison) attacks until he can do something that immobilizes her - like a flash bang grenade - to tricks her into unphasing for a few seconds, which is all it would take.

[Baalzebub]

I disagree with Flash, Quicksilver, and Reed Richards. Remember that Batman has plans for defeating any member of the Justice League. We know these plans work, because Ra's al Ghul once stole and used them, and defeated the Justice League. If he can defeat Flash, he can defeat Quicksilver. If he can defeat Plastic Man or Elongated Man, he can defeat Reed Richards. For that reason, I'd have to move these folks down to the probably case. Martian Manhunter only stays in the definitely case because his fire weakness seems to come and go these years, and without it he's basically Superman class.

Juggernaut moves to the possibly case, because it depends on whether he tags Bats before Bats overpowers him. End of the day, Juggy is dumb as a bag of hammers and Batman fights smart.

Shadowcat moves to the no way in Hell case, unless she gets complete surprise, then she might overpower him. But he can easily dodge her otherwise clumsy (by comparison) attacks until he can do something that immobilizes her - like a flash bang grenade - to tricks her into unphasing for a few seconds, which is all it would take.

With that in mind, we can also disregard Green Lantern and Quasar. If we compare Etrigan to Hellboy, then bye bye Hellboy.

[elliott20]

wait, guys, we're talking about Batman, a mere human here. By that count, it is possible for ANYBODY with a pistol standing at the right place, at the right time, to beat batman. Who CAN beat batman? Anybody. The possibility is always there. Who might succeed in defeat batman, that depends entirely on circumstances.

Don't forget, in DKR, Batman takes on the mutant leader and almost got killed the first time. (If it weren't for Robin, he would have been a goner)

[SteveMB]

Xavier only gets a "maybe" because his telepathy can only go so far. It is possible that Batman, through force of will alone would come out of whatever ol' Chuck could do. (pretty much only 2 things, mind control, or make him comatose and enter a dream state) My reference from this is actually taken from Batman the animated series, when Mad Hatter puts Batman into a dream state, and Batman figures out what is going on enough to wake up.
I'm reminded of an exchange from the Justice League ep "Only A Dream":

Dr. Destiny: Coming here was the mistake of your life. See, the closer I am to someone, the stronger I get. I'll be able to go in your brain, even if you're wide awake.
Batman: My brain's not a nice place to be.

[nothingclever]

Why make this thread? Go rez an old one. A while ago someone made the same thread and everyone got tired of it so they made a bunch of silly vs threads that were equally cheesy.

It's excatly as one person in this thread said. Anyone can beat Batman because he's human. He could be killed just like Captain America was by a sniper. The only reason this doesn't happen is because the writers won't let him die. It has nothing to do with how powerful the character actually is. All somewhat powerful characters beat Batman by default because they are simply too strong. Flash for instance automatically wins regardless of contingency plans because they should never count. Since when do you give one character all the time in the world and the best possible equipment/situation and the element of surprise when comparing it to another? "Cuz that's his power" doesn't count. If both characters get to prepare or both characters don't Batman will lose against most people. As soon as you say Batman has time to prepare or he conveniently has the best anti-character weapon on him you are automatically making the matchup pointless because you're giving one side an unrealistic advantage. If one person gets to prepare everyone should. Now I feel like a nerd for actually wasting my time typing this and I know someone will still say if Batman prepares for 6million years while some guy gets no time at all he'll win and it's perfectly fair.

[Heliomance]

I believe the idea is that even if both of them have time to prepare, Batman will use that time more profitably. Incidentally, isn't his cape bulletproof? So that's the sniper idea out the window.

[kpenguin]

his suit is bulletproof, but a competent sniper could still get in a head-shot.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Realistically? Anyone with reasonable power and no major weaknesses. Wonder Woman, Flash, GL (Alan Scott), Captain Marvel...long list of people who 'should' be able to beat him. Hell, realistically, Superman should be able to dash in and knock Bats out before he knows he's there.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Out of all that's been seen of Batman, there's truly only one being that can defeat him.

One solitary figure who holds the key to annihilating a man that has shown, time and time again, that he can defeat odds that, sensibly, should be insurmountable for a mere human.

The writer.

Take away Batman's plot protection, and he's screwed.

[Teal Kuinshi]

Absolutely no one. He's a comic book hero, remember? No matter how battered he is, he still will bounce back and win at the end. The good guys always do...:smallsigh:

[talsine]

I disagree with Flash, Quicksilver, and Reed Richards. Remember that Batman has plans for defeating any member of the Justice League. We know these plans work, because Ra's al Ghul once stole and used them, and defeated the Justice League. If he can defeat Flash, he can defeat Quicksilver. If he can defeat Plastic Man or Elongated Man, he can defeat Reed Richards.

Flash/Quicksilver both move so much faster that there is no way Batman should be able to stop them. He's not fast enough to hit them with anything. Poor writing did in the Flash.

Reed Richards is smarter than Batman, and has more experiance with his powers than either Elastic/PLastic man. He would beet Bruce w/o breaking a sweat.


Juggernaut moves to the possibly case, because it depends on whether he tags Bats before Bats overpowers him. End of the day, Juggy is dumb as a bag of hammers and Batman fights smart.

Once Juggernaught starts moving Batman can't stop him. Its called magic. Thats what he does runs until he wants to stop. And he's not as dumb as everyone thinks he is.

[Baalzebub]

Again, give Batman an idea of how his enemies battle, 30 minutes of planning and he will win the day. You can say "oh yeah, this guy has very flashy movements" but this works like a Death Attack "give me 3 rounds studying you and I'll beat you in one shot".

[nothingclever]

Again, give Batman an idea of how his enemies battle, 30 minutes of planning and he will win the day. You can say "oh yeah, this guy has very flashy movements" but this works like a Death Attack "give me 3 rounds studying you and I'll beat you in one shot".You might as well apply that logic to anyone who is considered at genius level intellect and has lots of money or good superpowers.

[TheEmerged]

Take away Batman's plot protection, and he's screwed.

Exactly. Realistically speaking, anyone with significantly long-ranged attacks (Bullseye is the perfect example) or superspeed turns Bruce* into street pizza.

But this will NEVER HAPPEN in the books because Batman* has to demonstrate the triumph of the human mind.

*The Bruce/Batman thing there is not an accident. Realistically Batman is just a human being -- a well trained human being, but realistically he's limited by the speed & range of his senses.

BTW, nothing from the "Access" crossover or the "Ra's steals Batman's tactics" encounters should be admissable here. All of Batman's plans had significant flaws that depended on acting from surprise against an opponent that wasn't using several of their advantages. And most of the Access fights were decided by votes, not logic.

[Wooter]

Squirrel Girl could beat Batman.

She can beat anyone.

[J_Muller]

I read an explanation of this before. The only person who can beat Batman is Dr. Doom. It goes something like this:


Both Batman and Dr. Doom are expert planners.
Given enough time, they can come up with a winning strategy.
However, Dr. Doom is willing to kill, giving him an edge in planning.
Therefore, Dr. Doom will come up with the superior plan, and win.

[Shadow of the Sun]

*Hadoken*No 8-bit theatre for you!

[kpenguin]

I read an explanation of this before. The only person who can beat Batman is Dr. Doom. It goes something like this:


Both Batman and Dr. Doom are expert planners.
Given enough time, they can come up with a winning strategy.
However, Dr. Doom is willing to kill, giving him an edge in planning.
Therefore, Dr. Doom will come up with the superior plan, and win.

Actually, I believe that point three would be that Doom be the first to begin planning, since villians are the catalysts for conflict.

[Deepblue706]

A well-placed FIGHTERDOKEN would do the trick.

Two-Fisted Monkey Style Attack!!!

[Daniel_Q]

http://biggercheese.com/index.php?comic=608
http://biggercheese.com/index.php?comic=609
http://biggercheese.com/index.php?comic=610
http://biggercheese.com/index.php?comic=611

Bat-wankery is annoying and far too common,
'oh yeah, give batman 30 mins to prepare and he'll win, no matter the circumstances, no matter the opponent, lol'

Wihout writer-fiat he'd be long dead, hell just some slightly lucky street punks could do it

[Lord of the Helms]

Actually, I believe that point three would be that Doom be the first to begin planning, since villians are the catalysts for conflict.

And he would not be fighting Batman to begin with if he did not either know he would win, or if even his loss would somehow futher his overall scheme.

[paddyfool]

NB: Batman has beaten Martian Manhunter a couple of times, although in one of them (when Jonny boy turned into something super-cheesy and potentially planet-wrecking called the Burning Martian), he did have to get help to do it.

I fully acknowledge the points about writer fiat, however.

[UglyPanda]

Batman is invincible when it's his comic. Anyone else's comic and a surprise attack and he can be pulped. Right before Infinite Crisis, Superman hospitalized Batman because he was being controlled by Maxwell Lord.

The method for a supervillain to defeat Batman is as follows:
Don't let him know you're in Gotham. -This stops him from using his deux ex machina level of planning.
Don't try to out-think him, just flat-out overpower him with something. -To prevent the planning and exploit the fact he has no super-strength.
Don't use gadgets -He has gadgets and more money than you.
Leave him alive. -Once you've defeated him, don't kill him! Trying to kill him will simply cause him to have an unaccountable burst of strength and/or have one of his many allies stop you.
Leave him alone. -If you stay in Gotham, it is inevitable that there will be a rematch. If there is, he can activate his deux ex machina planning.
Pretend he is a bystander. -Claim you're after someone in the JLU who is physically stronger than he is (i.e. Superman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman). Since you're not attacking him, he can get beat up in the crossfire and he won't retaliate. The reason why he won't retaliate is that he'll assume that your "true target" should be able to handle you.

[Karkadinn]

And he would not be fighting Batman to begin with if he did not either know he would win, or if even his loss would somehow futher his overall scheme.

Squirrel Girl.

[Lord of the Helms]

Squirrel Girl.

No godlike beings, please. Squirrel Girl is undefeatable by anyone in the universe.

[Karkadinn]

I think you missed my point, that the quoted statement was just as much wankery as the 'He can defeat anyone if he has time to prepare' stuff used for Batman. :P

[Daniel_Q]

'612 points of pain'

that would probaly take the wind out of her sails rather quickly

[Piedmon_Sama]

Bwaaaah, I'm SHOCKED nobody remembered this moment from the Busiek/Perez JLA-Avengers crossover. Batman and Captain America come very close to getting in a hand-to-hand fight, first spending a round "sizing each other up." Both are smart enough to realise they're being manipulated and end up not fighting each other, but later on Batman admits Cap "probably would have won."

[Daniel_Q]

As it should be

[Dhavaer]

I'd put good odds on Ozymandias.

[Green Bean]

Who can beat Batman? Another Batman. Armed with a laser. :smallbiggrin:

[J_Muller]

I'd put good odds on Ozymandias.

He'd have to stay out of hand-to-hand combat with him. Otherwise, probably yes.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Come to think of it, the number one reason Batman wins so much is due to his detective skills, which have always, always been featured as second-to-none. He has lots of other skills and makes great preperations and such, but these sorts of things can be duplicated by other characters. But his ability to deduce things ahead of time, thus having ample time to figure out a proper trap based on what he's learned, is what gives him his winning edge. A straight-on fight of any kind is instantly disadvantageous to Batman, and he'd likely lose out against the upper rosters from any universe.

However, if there was actually a reason for them to fight, Batman would thus have likely had time to put those detective skills to work and figure out a good strategy. Why does he beat Superman, for instance? Because, due to his deductions, he knows Superman won't purposely try to kill him, and he knows most of his biggest vulnerabilities otherwise. If he never had a reason to look into this stuff and Superman just decided, spur of the moment, to just run over and snap Bruce's neck? Yeah, of course Batman's then screwed.

But according to what Batman knows, this will never happen. So he's safe.

[J_Muller]

Well, Batman is one of the best martial artists in the DC universe, but there are better ones. For example, Connor Hawke (Green Arrow's son) did better than Batman in a martial arts tournament, I think. Also, Nightwing has the potential to be better, because he's faster. Batman's more skilled right now, though, so he's better.

[Daniel_Q]

But if it did, he'd be screwed
And it doesn't take upper roster, anyone who's good with a gun is a fair bet when batman doesn't have plot power to make them miss

EDIT:
the martial-arts thing kind of irks me, at least he isn't THE best (KARATE KID 4 LYFE!) it's just annoying for some reason I can't remember just now

Oh, and that's someone who could school batman, he held his own against pre-crises superboy and the rest of the legion for a time on his own

[J_Muller]

...except that he wears body armor.

[Daniel_Q]

I know, but it's only modern-day bullet proof armour (at least that's all I've heard) a shot to the chest will still bruise and break the guy undearneath, and if it's a powerful enough gun it's gonna go straight through, not to mention shots to the unprotected mouth

[J_Muller]

Actually, there's a body armor called DragonSkin that's practically impervious to most bullets. It withstands direct hits from steel-core AP assault rifle ammo. And, yeah, it's going to hurt the guy underneath the armor, but Batman moves too quickly to for someone to successfully hit him in an unprotected place. Incidentally, that's why he wears that big yellow bat-symbol on his chest--it's much easier to armor his chest, so he's better off putting the obvious target in a place where they won't be able to hurt him severely.

[Daniel_Q]

DragonSkin, never knew about that before.

I know that about the symbol, samee reason with the punisher too I believe.

If someone opens up with an automatic weapon it's still not easy to dodge, have to be more at spiderman than batman, and if they hit him at all it's going to affect him


(I'm not trying to degrade batman, I just don't like bat-wankery, the fact he can be killed by some punks with a little luck is true of other superheros too, it's just annoing when people say he's so amazing that in 30 mins he can make a plan to beat anyone no matter the circumstances, that's retarded)


As for some other people that can beat him, Solid Snake and Naked Snake/Big Boss, as well as Null/Grey Fox/Ninja Fox

[Logic]

Actually, there's a body armor called DragonSkin that's practically impervious to most bullets. It withstands direct hits from steel-core AP assault rifle ammo. And, yeah, it's going to hurt the guy underneath the armor, but Batman moves too quickly to for someone to successfully hit him in an unprotected place. Incidentally, that's why he wears that big yellow bat-symbol on his chest--it's much easier to armor his chest, so he's better off putting the obvious target in a place where they won't be able to hurt him severely.
The US military is no longer pursuing their contract with DragonSkin because it does not meet a particular requirement for stopping some unknown caliber of bullet. Something having to do with poor maintenance makes it not stop bullets anymore.
However, I doubt Bruce Wayne is so much of a penny pincher that he won't pay for the routine maintenance when it could save his life.

[Selrahc]

He also has to maintain mobility. How hefty is this Dragon Skin stuff? It needs to fit in a super suit, without being incredibly bulky. It basically needs to be thinner than your average flak vest to be incorporated into the bat costume.

[kpenguin]

One thing you guys are forgetting is that Batman is COMICBOOK hero. This means that there is probably some ultra-advanced body armor that the Bat wears that allows him to protected from bullets and remain mobile.

[Daniel_Q]

Proof or gtfo, there's been no evidance that it's anything like that to my knowledge

[Enlong]

Dr. Doom (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031016). I gotta say, a fairly good point is made here and here. (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031018)

[J_Muller]

The US military is no longer pursuing their contract with DragonSkin because it does not meet a particular requirement for stopping some unknown caliber of bullet. Something having to do with poor maintenance makes it not stop bullets anymore.
However, I doubt Bruce Wayne is so much of a penny pincher that he won't pay for the routine maintenance when it could save his life.

Yeah, but I heard there's some controversy regarding the Army's assessment of the body armor. My experience with it, however, is limited to seeing an episode of the show Futureweapons where they tested it with 9mm, 5.56mm NATO AP, and 7.62mm Warsaw AP, and none of the bullets penetrated the suit. It's about the same size as a regular bulletproof vest, too. Also, they then took the same suit they tested by shooting it and detonated a frag grenade right under it, and the suit still wasn't penetrated.

[Fuum Bango]

The only person that can beat Batman is a angrier, older Batman from the future.

[Imrix.]

What about Captain Marvel? Cosmic Awareness means that whatever Bats decides to do, Marvel instantly knows what it is, and I think Marvel has the advantage in sheer combat power.

Depending on the terrain, I'd lay money on Namor, too.

Or Black Widow, for that matter. She's a proffesional spy, don't forget, odds on she could slip into Gotham and assassinate Bats before anybody was the wiser.

Also, kudos to Piedmon_Sama for remembering that... Although it did mean I had to make an emergancy edit.

[kpenguin]

Remember, Batman can defeat most obscure/unpopular characters through sheer power of the writer. I believe that Bats is far more popular than Namor, Marvel, or Black Widow.

[Daniel_Q]

Anyone can win by writer-fiat, it isn't a factor
And marvel would splat the bat, as would namor, black widow being the one he would have the best chance against

After watching Advent Children I nominate pretty much anyone from that, Rude and Reno, (dammit they got shafted in the movie, total wimps in it) would be his best bet for people he can take, though they are still dangerous

[Shadow of the Sun]

Lady Shiva can and has beaten Batman before, so I would also put my money on her as well.

[Raxtenko]

Bronze Tiger beat Batman in fair fight too. And Batman planning got a draw in the rematch, IIRC.

[Finn Solomon]

Doom or Nick Fury could launch a nuke on Gotham and it'd all be over. Even if Batman was away, he'd have no reason to go on living.

[Baalzebub]

Oh I know... Thanos and his Infinity Gauntlet.

[NemoUtopia]

A lot of these points have been addressed before. For example, Loeb acknowledges Bruce's foibles about the ring (future superman swonks him into the batmobile with zero effort). Everything to be said has mostly been said: Batman can take anyone in pure martial arts short of Captain America level fighting, anyone in pure planning and anyone short of Reed or Tony Stark in pure innovation, and anyone in improvisation short of McGuyver. It boils down to:

Batman's strengths: based on preparation and writing/plot, Batman wins.
Batman's weaknesses: in the end, he's still human, and also has a pride factor. Also, aforementioned writing/plot can work against him.

It boils down to the story as opposed to any real merit, otherwise you can just create what's effectively a mathematical formula for who Bats can or can't beat.

[fangthane]

People who can beat Batman (with no superpowers whatsoever)
1. Any representative of the US Treasury. Dissolve the company, liquidate and distribute its assets, and break his alter ego, you break the bat.
2. Any disgruntled ex-employee who opts to go into revenge in the "he was a quiet type, kept to himself" manner. Bruce Wayne with a perforated skull puts a crimp in Batman's ability.
3. Alfred Pennywise. Oh, it's highly unlikely to happen deliberately... But accidents do happen.
4. Any of the bad guys who've been denied due process when Batman got a hold of them. Seen The Incredibles?
5. Joe Meach. Oh, wait, you said no cheese powers. ;)

I don't see why people give Green Lantern such bad odds. Granted most of the knobs who've had the ring haven't used it well, but that's because they're morons. Give me the ring and I'd be all-powerful, and yellow be damned. Show me anything yellow that can approach me in the face of gale-force winds channeled into cutting streams. One big green compressor behind me and a bit of conduit to keep things at high pressure, and look out. Charge runs out after a day? Charge it every 12 hours then. Alan Scott's ring? No problem, solid steel blocks wood nicely, thanks.

[Jensik]

Dr. Doom beats the bat. And here is the proof. (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031018)

[NemoUtopia]

A) It's Pennyworth...but yeah, a slip in surgery could be the end.
B) Somebody doesn't know how the Gotham PD operates. Batman keeps the criminals restrained for the police, they still get due process from the Police Department (this is part of why there are so many repeat villains).
C) Ring is not weak to yellow, and requires extreme force of will to work (somebody doesn't read their Lantern comics, eh?). That said, combine imagination + willpower and you can do what you describe.

[UglyPanda]

So I'm pretty sure a Green Lantern could defeat Batman so long as it as he attacked from a distance and it was a sparring match. Remember, when nothing is on the line, superheros can lose to anyone.

Recently, one of the new Sinestro corps rings tried to attach itself to Batman. As far as I can tell, Batman has never been selected to use a Green Lantern ring.

[J_Muller]

People who can beat Batman (with no superpowers whatsoever)
1. Any representative of the US Treasury. Dissolve the company, liquidate and distribute its assets, and break his alter ego, you break the bat.
2. Any disgruntled ex-employee who opts to go into revenge in the "he was a quiet type, kept to himself" manner. Bruce Wayne with a perforated skull puts a crimp in Batman's ability.
3. Alfred Pennywise. Oh, it's highly unlikely to happen deliberately... But accidents do happen.
4. Any of the bad guys who've been denied due process when Batman got a hold of them. Seen The Incredibles?
5. Joe Meach. Oh, wait, you said no cheese powers. ;)

I don't see why people give Green Lantern such bad odds. Granted most of the knobs who've had the ring haven't used it well, but that's because they're morons. Give me the ring and I'd be all-powerful, and yellow be damned. Show me anything yellow that can approach me in the face of gale-force winds channeled into cutting streams. One big green compressor behind me and a bit of conduit to keep things at high pressure, and look out. Charge runs out after a day? Charge it every 12 hours then. Alan Scott's ring? No problem, solid steel blocks wood nicely, thanks.

The Yellow Impurity is no longer present, actually. Rings now are fine with yellow.

Let's see.
1. Wouldn't work. Bruce Wayne was framed for murder at one point and had to 'flee the country'. Batman continued on crimefighting like nothing happened.
2. Batman's security is very good. Also, if he sees it coming he can dodge.
3. Point.
4. Someone already said it. They get due process.
5. Point. Though I wouldn't be surprised if Batman's got some contingency still sitting around to deal with him.

[JonathanC]

If Batman beat Bullseye, the writer gimped Bullseye. Bullseye has killed a man with a toothpick from 400 feet away. He could look like an average citizen, whip out a freaking nickel and give Batman a makeshift lobotomy.

I'll give you the Punisher, though.

Bullseye gimped? Not necessarily, though I haven't read the comic. Bullseye has been beaten several times by Daredevil, who combat-wise is basically Batman with radar vision. Bullseye killing an unsuspecting target from surprise with a hidden weapon like a toothpick isn't the same thing as him trying to tag a moving, aware target who is actively trying to kick his ass.

Bullseye gets one shot. Just one, under pressure, against an armored target. If he makes it, then yes, Batman is dead. If he doesn't, which is just as possible (he's missed Daredevil plenty of times, and Batman has dodged DC's finest marksmen), then Batman is going to utterly take him apart. Bruce Wayne is a larger man than Matt Murdock, trained in every fighting style on earth, and has a mean streak a mile long. Bullseye will survive, but he'll wish he hadn't.

[JonathanC]

So I'm pretty sure a Green Lantern could defeat Batman so long as it as he attacked from a distance and it was a sparring match. Remember, when nothing is on the line, superheros can lose to anyone.

Recently, one of the new Sinestro corps rings tried to attach itself to Batman. As far as I can tell, Batman has never been selected to use a Green Lantern ring.

Bruce Wayne was a GL in an Elseworlds once. Batman vs. a fully equipped GL is hardly a fair fight.


Now Green Lantern vs. Dr. Spectrum, that's a fight.

[Dumbledore lives]

Do X-men count? because wolverine would win hand to hand no problem, having 3 claws in each hand is kind of an advantage. Plus Nightcrawler has a good chance too, Nightcrawler could teleport around Batman hitting him all the time and then Batman's dead. Plus any kind of bomb could kill Batman, if you throw a gernade at him and it detonates on impact, BOOM! And Doom has a good chance if they had equal planning time because Doom will kill, Batman will not.

[JonathanC]

Do X-men count? because wolverine would win hand to hand no problem, having 3 claws in each hand is kind of an advantage. Plus Nightcrawler has a good chance too, Nightcrawler could teleport around Batman hitting him all the time and then Batman's dead. Plus any kind of bomb could kill Batman, if you throw a gernade at him and it detonates on impact, BOOM! And Doom has a good chance if they had equal planning time because Doom will kill, Batman will not.

Batman, like so many comic book characters, has an amazing ability to avoid thrown explosives. I'm fairly sure he's fought Wolverine before, and Wolverine's fighting performance in comics is very...inconsistent. He's billed as the best there is, but writers have jobbed him out to damn near everyone as some kind of rite of passage...and likewise, he's beaten plenty of people in odd ways as well. Consider that Batman survived fighting KGBeast and Grendel.

I like Nightcrawler's chances in a quick fight, but teleportation is a trick that's only going to fool Batman for so long. He adapts quickly, and he cheats. But yes, both Wolverine and Nightcrawler are capable of beating Batman, due to the benefits of their powers. Nightcrawler's old trick of grabbing you and teleporting rapidly until you puke and pass out should work on Batman, if he can lay a hand on him. But, that's kind of a big 'if'.

Captain America has been recognized, even by Batman, as capable of taking Bats in an extended encounter, especially due to his staying power.

I'd also lay decent odds on Spider-Man, though it really depends on who gets the first hit in that fight.

[Daniel_Q]

JonthanC, no, just no
if they weren't all good superheros spiderman could splatter batman with a single punch (15 ton level) but as he holds back it's not going to be that dramatic but still strong enough, and the fact he has superhuman agility means he's gonna be the one landing more hits, and again he'll be able to take batman's weaker hits
Also webbing puts this in spiderman's favour as well, quick spray with that and batman's goin nowhere
He's no rookie, he's a very experianced brawler, he's the (goddamm) Spectacular Spiderman

[JonathanC]

JonthanC, no, just no
if they weren't all good superheros spiderman could splatter batman with a single punch (15 ton level) but as he holds back it's not going to be that dramatic but still strong enough, and the fact he has superhuman agility means he's gonna be the one landing more hits, and again he'll be able to take batman's weaker hits
Also webbing puts this in spiderman's favour as well, quick spray with that and batman's goin nowhere
He's no rookie, he's a very experianced brawler, he's the (goddamm) Spectacular Spiderman

In a face to face fight, we agree completely. But I'm talking about first strike here...and if Batman gets the first hit, it won't be expected, and it won't be fair. Now that he's lost the Iron Spidey suit, Peter doesn't really have any great defense against gas pellets, one of Batman's favorite tricks.

But yeah, barring Bat-gas, it's hard to see this going well for Bruce, at least the first time out. Second round, after he's had some time to plan, he can probably figure something out. Third round, Peter will have done some counter-preparations, and they could go back and forth for a while.

[StudlyDuck]

Bullseye gimped? Not necessarily, though I haven't read the comic. Bullseye has been beaten several times by Daredevil, who combat-wise is basically Batman with radar vision. Bullseye killing an unsuspecting target from surprise with a hidden weapon like a toothpick isn't the same thing as him trying to tag a moving, aware target who is actively trying to kick his ass.

Bullseye gets one shot. Just one, under pressure, against an armored target. If he makes it, then yes, Batman is dead. If he doesn't, which is just as possible (he's missed Daredevil plenty of times, and Batman has dodged DC's finest marksmen), then Batman is going to utterly take him apart. Bruce Wayne is a larger man than Matt Murdock, trained in every fighting style on earth, and has a mean streak a mile long. Bullseye will survive, but he'll wish he hadn't.
I dunno. Usually when Daredevil beats Bullseye, it's REALLY close. Like you said, Batman is approximately equal to Daredevil in hand to hand. I'd give Bullseye just under a 50% chance to take Batman.

[JonathanC]

I dunno. Usually when Daredevil beats Bullseye, it's REALLY close. Like you said, Batman is approximately equal to Daredevil in hand to hand. I'd give Bullseye just under a 50% chance to take Batman.

Batman is roughly equal overall; in combat experience, he's superior. Batman spent 10 years studying every martial art in the world; Daredevil is a gifted boxer who became (basically) a ninja. Batman is also larger than Daredevil, and lest we forget, an infuriated Matt Murdock tore Bullseye apart at the end of the Hardcore story arc. This is to say nothing of Batman's equipment...Daredevil has beaten Bullseye by a close margin using a bouncing metal stick (not a great idea when fighting a master of thrown weapons). Batman has bombs, gas pellets, batarangs (again, not a great idea against Bullseye), and that's just a portion of his standard equipment.

Bullseye is good, and the smart money says he'll make Batman bleed, but almost without question, he's going down hard.

[Daniel_Q]

Master Asia, undefeated of the east, takes down mecha with martial arts skill alone
Or anyone in Dragonball, not dbz since that's overkill, just db

There's many people who could take batman, it's hard to choose anyone who would just be be an interesting opponent since people amp up batman so much

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Bah, power anime really should be left out of the equation. Those sorts of characters eventually come down to "What's the biggest thing that they can blow up?" when gauging their power.

In a sudden fight without any explanation, anyone that's faster or has a lethal ability faster then Batman will likely win. Anyone that's impervious all the way up to light fire arms will likely win. And anyone that has enough raw power to just destroy half a city block on a whim will likely win. Batman's capacity to whoop butt is entirely dependant on him expecting things and preparing ahead of time due to clever deductions and detective work. If you take out his single greatest advantage as a crime fighter and leave him with "really good martial arts and a handful of non-lethal gadgets", then he's pretty much screwed.

At the cost of setting up a fight that's extremely unlikely to ever happen, since you've removed any semblance of a story in favor of an absolutely random brawl.

[Daniel_Q]

that's all versus matches are

and what you said is the truth, in these situations batman flat out dies, no chance to make a plan cause he's dead, it's a shame but it's accurate, we can't just say 'Batman would find a way somehow even though he's compleatly outmatched'

[Darkhaven]

Since when do you give one character all the time in the world and the best possible equipment/situation and the element of surprise when comparing it to another? "Cuz that's his power" doesn't count. If both characters get to prepare or both characters don't Batman will lose against most people. As soon as you say Batman has time to prepare or he conveniently has the best anti-character weapon on him you are automatically making the matchup pointless because you're giving one side an unrealistic advantage.

No offense to anyone else, but that's possibly the most intelligent thing said in this thread. That being said, here's my goofy addition :smalltongue: I'll freely start by saying that I don't really follow DC anymore, mainly because all the big names (in my PERSONAL opinion) have the "just because" power and it's annoying. Not to mention their names (Captain Marvel JR! Sweet deity almighty, save me from the creativity!)

Otherwise, just flat footed, ability vs. ability combat with no prep time, Deathstroke could. The dude uses his full brain capacity, it really shouldn't be that hard for him. Beast Boy would give him a damn good throwdown too. And didn't Lady Shiva smack him around too? But like I said, I'm of a Marvel mentality, and my money goes to Taskmaster. Hell, my money would STILL be on Taskmaster even if Batman had time to prepare, mainly because he'd have the opportunity to do so as well. One of DC's heavy hitter's and its greatest detective vs. the one man with over two hundred perfected martial art/superhuman techniques, with the weapons to match. Worst yet, if it goes too long or comes down to a round two, it'll be Batman vs. Himself and the better half of the Marvel U.

Outside of that, Nightcrawler hands down. I don't give a damn WHAT Batman has on him at the time, Nightcrawler has Spiderman-level agility, a prehensile tail, and is a master of close combat teleportation. Caught flatfooted, the Bat is toast. Of course, my own opinion...

[JonathanC]

Caught flat-footed, you're absolutely right. Face to face, on the other hand, is something else. Grappling with Batman is not an activity I recommend for anyone who has concern for their physical well-being.

Any talk of a versus thread with Batman should either state "prep time" for both parties, or assume that they're meeting out of the blue.

Out of the blue, with no planning, Batman vs. Nightcrawler...if Kurt can get in close, he's likely to take it, but it's going to take a lot of bamphs to drop Batman, and those frequent teleports tire out Nightcrawler as well. And then there's the matter of actually grappling Batman, who is armed to the teeth, extremely well-trained, stronger than Nightcrawler, and who also has a reach advantage due to his height.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Actually, in a true story-based match up where we can assume Batman will act like his normal Bat-self and do ridiculously in-depth analysis of his opponent as soon as he catches wind that they might remotely be a problem for him, my money's on Spider-Man.

Not for his powers, either.

Spider-Man's greatest asset is very similar to Batman's- he thinks. He's not just going to go bang on the front door to Wayne Manor and ask if the Bat can come out to play. He's likely to do some good detective work himself, and he'll probably figure out several good methods for fighting Batman. So, the fight would come down to two highly intelligent planners, likely well-prepared when their showdown begins, one armed with a lot of tech and the other armed with a cache of useful superpowers. Batman will try to neutralize Spider-Man's spider-sense for an ambush, Spider-Man will be actively searching for Batman to prevent an ambush scenario and possibly pull one off himself. Both will try to hit each other's weak points.

What I'm saying is that a fight between Batman and Spider-Man would make for an excellent crossover match up.

[J_Muller]

Since when do you give one character all the time in the world and the best possible equipment/situation and the element of surprise when comparing it to another? "Cuz that's his power" doesn't count. If both characters get to prepare or both characters don't Batman will lose against most people. As soon as you say Batman has time to prepare or he conveniently has the best anti-character weapon on him you are automatically making the matchup pointless because you're giving one side an unrealistic advantage. If one person gets to prepare everyone should. Now I feel like a nerd for actually wasting my time typing this and I know someone will still say if Batman prepares for 6million years while some guy gets no time at all he'll win and it's perfectly fair.

Um, no. He's Batman. He will prepare more. He will prepare better. That's his power.

[Daniel_Q]

Idiot, that's a retarded no limits fallacy and completly untrue
Batman's greatest strength is when he has time to prepare, but that doesn't mean it's impossible for someone to do better or that it will never turn out to be the wrong choice when he goes through with it, he's not omnipotent

[J_Muller]

Idiot, that's a retarded no limits fallacy and completly untrue
Batman's greatest strength is when he has time to prepare, but that doesn't mean it's impossible for someone to do better or that it will never turn out to be the wrong choice when he goes through with it, he's not omnipotent

No more wrong than assuming Spiderman will never slip and fall while swinging on a web.

[JonathanC]

Batman's "power" is being the world's greatest detective, and one of the world's greatest martial artists. His power is his incredible will. Preparation is just something he does. And no, he doesn't see every problem coming in time to prepare for 3 weeks in advance. He gets blindsided all the time. ALL THE TIME.

Bruce Wayne: Murderer, Wargames, Knightfall, Hush...most of his big stories involve him being hit with unexpected attacks, because if he saw it all coming in time to prepare...he wouldn't have to do any detective work. He prepares for those things which he knows are beyond his normal means...Superman, for example. If he's never met Spider-Man before, he's not going to have the master plan. He's going to fight him with what he's got. He'll toss batarangs, and Spiderman will flow through them like they weren't there. He'll try explosives, and that won't work either. Spidey will close, and find that much like when he's fighting Cap, Batman's level of skill makes it hard to land a clean hit. Batman, likewise, is going to find Peter more slippery than Cassandra Cain, for much the same reason: he's faster, and he knows what's coming.

In a second encounter, Batman is likely to have prepared something to even the odds. He might bushwhack Spider-Man, who will probably manage to escape with his injuries, and plan on his own. Then both men, fully prepared, have it out in the third round. If Batman chooses the ground they fight on, he's got a good chance, but Spider-Man is nobody's fool, and unlikely to stick around once he realizes he's in a trap.

[J_Muller]

Exactly. He does detective work when he can, but he can still hold his own even when he doesn't see it's coming. Who do you think he is (http://www.superdickery.com/oneshot/45.html)? He's Batman.

Incidentally, that's probably the best line Batman's ever had.

[JonathanC]

Hold his own? Yes. Automatically win due to deus ex machina? No.

And incidentally, Spiderman actually has fallen from his webs before.

[J_Muller]

Yes, well, Batman's plans have failed before.

But usually, Spiderman swings around with no problem. Just like how usually, Batman's plans work.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Several times, in fact. Just as Batman's figured out puzzles too late in some situations to save people, such as when Jason died or when Bane got to him. Both have proven to have holes in their greatest defenses from time to time.

EDIT: Damn ninja clans.

[JonathanC]

Yes, well, Batman's plans have failed before.

But usually, Spiderman swings around with no problem. Just like how usually, Batman's plans work.

When he makes them. My point is that Batman does not come up with a customized, highly complex plan for every challenge. That's something he does *during* a story, usually after the first encounter. To give him the benefit of 3 weeks of planning in an initial encounter makes no sense.

Batman is horrifying enough as an opponent with just his wits, his skills, and his standard equipment.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I like to think he keeps around "power scaling" equipment, too. Like, he uses the normal batarangs for humans, right? But against someone tough enough to take a good beating, he upgrades to small explosive batarangs. Hell, he probably has some massive explosive batarangs too, for instances where he fights something really hard.

[J_Muller]

When he makes them. My point is that Batman does not come up with a customized, highly complex plan for every challenge. That's something he does *during* a story, usually after the first encounter. To give him the benefit of 3 weeks of planning in an initial encounter makes no sense.

Batman is horrifying enough as an opponent with just his wits, his skills, and his standard equipment.

Wait, are you arguing that someone like Spiderman could or couldn't defeat him in a first encounter?

[JonathanC]

In a first encounter, Batman would be a tough cookie for Spider-Man, and vice versa. But frankly, I see Spider-Man coming out on top in the first encounter, unless Batman goes for the gas pellets early (as I said earlier, Spider-Man doesn't really have a defense against this). Otherwise, Spider-Man's superior agility and strength are going to carry it. He's not Superman, but he doesn't have to be. He lifts like 15 tons, so as far as Bruce is concerned, he might as well be Supes.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Batman is not the best one on one martial artist in DC comics. If I had to rate the martial artists I would probably go

1. Cassandra Cain or Lady Shiva
2. Richard Dragon or Constantine Drakon
3. Connor Hawke
4. Batman
5. Bronze Tiger

Batman is good. But by no means the best. Please note that that list is leaving out the cheese that is the Karate Kid from the future- he doesn't count.

[JonathanC]

Batman is not the best one on one martial artist in DC comics. If I had to rate the martial artists I would probably go

1. Cassandra Cain or Lady Shiva
2. Richard Dragon or Constantine Drakon
3. Connor Hawke
4. Batman
5. Bronze Tiger

Batman is good. But by no means the best. Please note that that list is leaving out the cheese that is the Karate Kid from the future- he doesn't count.

Batman has beaten Shiva before, to be fair. DC waffles between building her up and jobbing her out to random people. Richard Dragon, at least in his last series, didn't impress me at all, and I'm pretty sure Batman can take Connor Hawke.

[Imrix.]

Somebody mentioned the Taskmaster? How could I forget him?! Excellent point, and one I support wholeheartedly.

Hey, what about either of the Maximoff twins? They'd stand a decent chance. I mean, Quicksilver managed to run interferance on the Exemplars, and only got stopped -barely, I might add-, by Conquest, the living embodiment of combat skill*, with reflexes to match.

He could probably keep moving faster than Batman could even *see*, let alone fight. And the Scarlet Witch? Interesting fight, that'd be. If Wanda could keep a handle on the fight, she could wreak all kinds of havoc, but Bats only needs to get a few decent blows in to end it all. On the other hand, Wanda can concievably block anything Bats can use, if she can think fast enough.

* Did anyone just get the idea of what would happen if the Taskmaster fought Conquest for a few hours/days? The horror! The... Awesome?

[Logic]

My IRL friend brings up an interesting opponent.
MacGyver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGyver) Yes, that MacGyver. Why, you ask? His accomplishments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_problems_solved_by_MacGyver)

[fangthane]

The Yellow Impurity is no longer present, actually. Rings now are fine with yellow.

DAMMIT!!! That was the one thing I could still point to in the "original" Hal Jordan mythos and say "see, there's some shred of realism despite the cheese!" I always figured that the reason Abin Sur was even IN a spaceship was because his physiology was such that the sun's yellow rays would have fried him if he were protected only by his ring, since it'd pass straight through (though obviously cosmics etc would be blocked, being non-yellow) and it was his main source of protection in such solar systems. Even if the weakness seemed contrived, at least it gave me that illusion of an explanation (since the GL corps doesn't generally seem to need vehicles)
I'm almost glad I started boycotting as soon as the "A Guy and his G'nort" series came out.

1. I dunno, those treasury folks have even less sense of humor than homicide cops ;) But, I'll grant this one.
2. Good != perfect - though I'd grant that this is probably less likely than accidental.
3. Doh, got his name wrong, though obviously you knew who I meant - haven't read a Batman comic in close to 20 years ;)
4. I'd have to think that if nobody else, at least the original Two-Face would have some legal challenges to the use of force involved ;) Though, admittedly, it'd only be a 50% chance he'd even try.
5. Hmm, according to wiki Meach apparently died when I wasn't looking - of course an enterprising comic author could bring him back, I'm sure - after all, given the circumstances of his genesis, plucking an alternate "him" out of an earlier time could work. Even so though, I'd grant that Bats has some sense of how to deal with him - but the only times he's won have been with Superman's help.

Speaking of Compy's genesis, the original, evil (touches pinky to lips) Brainiac could probably give the Bat a good run for his money.

Peter Anspach could do it. Easily. :)

I like the Macgyver idea. I'd just hate the idea of Richard Dean Anderson winning though.

[J_Muller]

and I'm pretty sure Batman can take Connor Hawke.

Debatable. Batman's stronger, faster, and more skilled, but Connor's got a metahuman gene that allows him to memorize a martial arts move he sees once and use it himself. So Batman would win the first fight, but Connor would come back stronger. I believe Connor did better than Batman in a martial arts tournament at one point, too.

As for R.D.A. ... meh. Colonel O'Neill would have a better chance. He could probably get access to alien tech like a G'hould stun grenade or those illusion generators that make you look like someone else, or at least something that would allow him to catch Batman unawares.

[nothingclever]

Batman has beaten Shiva before, to be fair. DC waffles between building her up and jobbing her out to random people. Richard Dragon, at least in his last series, didn't impress me at all, and I'm pretty sure Batman can take Connor Hawke.I'd still say Lady Shiva is better because sure she's been beaten by a number of people but it's often literally as a rite of passage. "Hi, you're a really good martial artist. I must fight you but I'm not going to try to really kill you cuz I'm already the champ." She's trained a bunch of people who she beats easily and then gets beaten
by. Like she trained Batman when he lost his will to fight. She beat him and then he beats her. I really wouldn't count any of the times people win like that because it's just one of those things they do in comics to make cheesy montages more epic. It would be kinda boring if she wins both times easily and just says "LOL NEWB." The character she just trained wouldn't seem much tougher if he went down in three hits instead of one.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Did anyone just get the idea of what would happen if the Taskmaster fought Conquest for a few hours/days? The horror! The... Awesome?

Taskmaster (and Echo who apparently has the same ability) is limited by his own physical abilities. He also doesn't need to fight people since in his first appearance he mentions copying Spider-man's reflexes (but not his spidersense) from the Television. If he really wanted to steal someone's skills he'd just hire someone to do some undercover filming on them.

Taskmaster is rediculously strong but he's not someone who could defeat a decent team of superpowered people by himself.

Batman would probably make some sort of non-stick costume if he fought Spiderman, or have a web-dissolving spray.

He's batman, he has stuff... on his belt... that's what he does...

[Imrix.]

True, Taskmaster is limited by his own body, but the fact remains that were he to observe Conquest in battle over time, he could effectively accrue the skill of divine levels. Now, whichever way you look at that it's scary.

[Darkhaven]

Taskmaster (and Echo who apparently has the same ability) is limited by his own physical abilities. He also doesn't need to fight people since in his first appearance he mentions copying Spider-man's reflexes (but not his spidersense) from the Television. If he really wanted to steal someone's skills he'd just hire someone to do some undercover filming on them.

Taskmaster is rediculously strong but he's not someone who could defeat a decent team of superpowered people by himself.


Actually, Taskmaster's always had his own danger sense, his ability to absorb fighting techniques is what he's known for. And, his ninja/Hydra squads DO record other fighters for him. That's why going against him automatically puts you against the Masters of Evil, Hydra, Spiderman, Moon Knight, Daredevil, Bullseye, Electra, Boomerang, Punisher, half of S.H.I.E.L.D., most of the Weapon X dudes, and any Avenger with a weapon, plus a ton of others. Like I said, on even ground, the Bat goes down. Heaven forbid the fight goes too long, Bats will have less of a repetoire to draw from besides his trusty utility belt. And even if both slink off to plan for round two, I still give it to Taskmaster, because even if Batman somehow manages to figure out what Taskmaster does, there's no way in hell he'd know EACH damn style Taskmaster breaks out, and not only will he be facing Spider agility, shield throws, shuriken, and billy club whips, but he may just use his newfound Batarang ability against Batman, with Bullseye's accuracy. Pwned...

[nothingclever]

"In addition, he has revealed new abilities. First, given observation and practice (with the aid of a voice-match recognition device), he can duplicate the voices of others. More importantly, after watching video footage of fights filmed in double-time (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Double-time&action=edit), he learned how to perform his own actions in double-time. Since he does not have a superhuman physique, he can only use this ability to provide short bursts of superhuman speed lasting a few seconds, or he risks seriously injuring himself. He even discovered, in a confrontation with Sunset Bain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunset_Bain), that he can catch bullets after watching one of her bodyguards do it."

That's pretty cool.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Taskmaster would be a good Batman villain. He'd probably kick Bruce's ass the first time they fought, but Batman would come back with countermeasures (blinding him, maybe? First plunging the room into darkness, guessing Tasky has infrared in his mask and firing off a flashbang) and win.

[Daniel_Q]

What if Taskmaster killed batman the first time? kinda hard to come up with countermeasures when you're dead
but comics don'twork like that of course

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I like to think that the Presence particularly favors Batman and Superman in DC. Thus why they seem to win so much against the sort of odds that kill other characters.

[kingdaughter]

My IRL friend brings up an interesting opponent.
MacGyver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGyver) Yes, that MacGyver. Why, you ask? His accomplishments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_problems_solved_by_MacGyver)

I was just about to post that very joke. :smalltongue:
At the very least MacGyver would steal his girlfriend.

[TheEmerged]

"Batman Would Win the Second Fight". I believe that's "Versus Cliche #3"

[kerberos]

What if Taskmaster killed batman the first time? kinda hard to come up with countermeasures when you're dead

I beg to differ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_book_death).

[kerberos]

In a first encounter, Batman would be a tough cookie for Spider-Man, and vice versa. But frankly, I see Spider-Man coming out on top in the first encounter, unless Batman goes for the gas pellets early (as I said earlier, Spider-Man doesn't really have a defense against this).
Other than holding his breath and moving out of the area.


Otherwise, Spider-Man's superior agility and strength are going to carry it. He's not Superman, but he doesn't have to be. He lifts like 15 tons, so as far as Bruce is concerned, he might as well be Supes.
True, but of casue it's practically SOP for comic writers to ignore or greatly downplay such factors. When was the last time Captain America parried a blow from a superstrenth character with his shield and promptly broke his arm?

[kpenguin]

When was the last time Captain America parried a blow from a superstrenth character with his shield and promptly broke his arm?

Cap has (or had) a shield alloyed with vibranium, which can absorb vibrations and kinetic energy. It basicly absorbs the energy from any sort of impact.

[kerberos]

Cap has (or had) a shield alloyed with vibranium, which can absorb vibrations and kinetic energy. It basicly absorbs the energy from any sort of impact.
My bad, I didn't reallize they'd provided and adequate pseudoscientific explanation for that. I still think my point is correct even if the exampel wasn't.

[Beleriphon]

So I'm pretty sure a Green Lantern could defeat Batman so long as it as he attacked from a distance and it was a sparring match. Remember, when nothing is on the line, superheros can lose to anyone.

Recently, one of the new Sinestro corps rings tried to attach itself to Batman. As far as I can tell, Batman has never been selected to use a Green Lantern ring.

I think it was Kyle let Bruce wear his ring once for some reason, to face his fears I think. Bruce does, but basically says that he can't face his fears otherwise he loses all effectiveness as Batman. So the Bat has worn a GL ring.


Cap has (or had) a shield alloyed with vibranium, which can absorb vibrations and kinetic energy. It basicly absorbs the energy from any sort of impact.

Correction. Cap's shield is a unique vibranium-steel alloy that had never been achieved before, and has never been recreated. Its perfectly areodynamic and aborbs kinetic energy. Note that it doesn't absorb all energy like pure vibranium, but that stuff is is quite brittle so it can actually be shattered in the right circumstances.

I'm going to add Black Panther to list of characters that could conceivably beat Batman. If only because the dude has vibranium alloyed (with Wakandan secret sauce) into his costume.

[Lizard Lord]

I remember reading this old Marvel vs. DC comics and in them Batman defeated Bullseye and later Captin America, so no neither of them can beat him.

[Raxtenko]

If you're referring to the old Marvel Vs. DC miniseries from the late 90's then go hang your head in hulmilation.

[the_tick_rules]

yeah, superman could just run so fast up batman would never see him and just pull his head off. but people like seeing batman triupmph so it's written that way.

[lacesmcawesome]

Dr. McNinja.

No doubt in my mind, at all, that he could own batman. I mean, yea, batman taught him all he knows, but he's a NINJA, which means he also had another sensei. so he just combines the teachings of batman and his ninja sensei. that means he's like, doubley as awesome and powerful as batman.

[Magnor Criol]

I don't think McNinja could beat Batman. He idolizes the guy, he'd never be able to bring himself to land a hit. Meanwhile, Batman has already expressed his distaste for the friendly ninja doc. (http://drmcninja.com/issue7/7p1.png)

As for Superman - I think it'd depend on who got the jump on the other (who rolled higher initiative, hur hur I'm clever.) If Superman just suddenly snapped and went on a random rampage and the Bats had no clue he was coming, maybe. But doesn't Batman actually have anti-Superman stuff in his arsenal? I'm sure I've seen it mentioned, etc., that Batman has some kryptonite in his posession for just such a scenario.

[Innis Cabal]

a gun in the hands of a competent person.....meaning a person trained in the use of firearms and isnt a lacky or villian, becuase the hero might always win but that only matters when its against the villian.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Chuck Norris. He does so in the Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny, crushing poor Batman's head between his thighs.

[PsyBlade]

Hey, they said no cheese powers. Chuck Norris oozes cheese powers.

Now to the core of this post.

I've come to the conclusion that Wolverine could easily beat Batman.
Reasons:
100+ years of experience
Healing Factor
Adamantium Skeleton
Well honed Metahuman Senses
Metahuman Strength
Metahuman Agility
Berserker Rage

Of course, if Batman has any prep time, this would be close. I'd still bet on Logan, but I'd pay to see this fight.

[kpenguin]

The experience doesn't matter if Logan forgets most of it, but yeah, Wolvie could beat Batman through all his skills and powers alone. And of course, because the fans would want him to. Wolverine is more popular than the Bat, I believe.

[ElfLad]

"Quickly! To the gigantic Bat-Magnet!"

[PsyBlade]

Pre-planning just bested Wolvie. Of course, Bats would have to know that Wolvie's metal parts are magnetic to begin with, but how hard would that be for such a genius/detective as Bats?

[Indon]

"Quickly! To the gigantic Bat-Magnet!"

Adam West > Wolverine?

...I'm confused.

[averagejoe]

Adam West > Wolverine?

...I'm confused.

Adam West > EVERYONE. Even Chuck Norris.

[Mummy king]

Who can beat batman?

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c292/crindoline/batman.jpg
Mummy King, that's who!

[TheOtherMC]

Who can beat batman?

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c292/crindoline/batman.jpg
Mummy King, that's who!

You.....you fill me with undescribable fear.....WHAT ARE YOU!?

[Samurai General]

The A-Team. Or Rambo.

In comic wise I'd say...... Lois Lane.

[idioscosmos]

OK, I didn't read through the whole thing to find out if anyone raised these points, but....

1.) The Invisible Woman could beat Batman. She took out the other three members of the FF in a fight. Technically she could turn invisible then use her force fields to give Batman an aneurysm (make a tiny one in the brain and expand it...). If you think about it...she's actually kind of scary-powerful.

2.) The Tick. 'Cos I said so.

3.) Squirrel Girl can only beat people who rediculously overmatch her. Let me rephrase that - the closer they are to her power level, the harder she seems to have to fight. As such she'd take down Galactus or Batman (after he kitted himself out for war in power armor) off panel without a problem, if Batman was surprised on the naked and wet on the toilet after he got out of the shower he'd give an exellent account of himself. Perhaps he'd even win 'till Monkey Joe or Tippy-Toe or Slippy Pete or Mr Freckle or...some other random squirrel-friend nobly gives its life to ensure her victory.

4.) Black Panther. Black King takes Black Knight. It's too cool a title to miss. 'Nuff said.

[TheOtherMC]

...."slippy pete"? .......*shudder...*

[idioscosmos]

...."slippy pete"? .......*shudder...*

This from someone who seemed perfectly happy to talk about "The Shocker" and "Monkey Joe Prime" a couple of weeks ago.


/Still giggle when I read "The Shocker".
//Still think of a sinister squirrel with a goatee stalking Squirrel Girl

[Rare Pink Leech]

a gun in the hands of a competent person.....meaning a person trained in the use of firearms and isnt a lacky or villian, becuase the hero might always win but that only matters when its against the villian.

Quoted for truth. If it can happen to Captain America, it can happen to Batman.


The experience doesn't matter if Logan forgets most of it, but yeah, Wolvie could beat Batman through all his skills and powers alone. And of course, because the fans would want him to. Wolverine is more popular than the Bat, I believe.

Hmm, tough call who is more popular, and thus who can win more fights that they logically don't have any chance of winning. It's probably no coincidence Batman and Wolverine didn't fight in the Marvel/DC crossover, but were combined for Amalgam.

My bet is they'd knock each other out in one final, mighty blow (a la Superman and Doomsday) and thus not actually defeat one another.


"Quickly! To the gigantic Bat-Magnet!"

Absolutely brilliant. This has to win the thread.

[Tor the Fallen]

Merlin the Wizard.
1. Merlin is a Wizard. Wizards are equal to or approach the power of Batman.

2. Merlin lives backwards through time, experiencing the future before he reaches the past. Even if time is non-linear or none-existant, both Batman and Merlin experience time in a linear function, albeit in different directions. Merlin would have near perfect knowledge, especially compared to Batman.

3. Merlin is defeated by a witch sometime in the misty pasts of Britannia. He is not defeated by Batman. Since Merlin,coming from the future, is sealed in a cave by a witch in the past, Merlin must necessarily defeat all oponents between the end of time (or whenever he came from) and during whatever period you fancy King Arthur was riding about it. This means that the pseudo-modern Caped Crusader would be unable to defeat Merlin, as Batman exists in the pseudo-present, and Merlin is defeated in the pseudo-past.

[TheOtherMC]

This from someone who seemed perfectly happy to talk about "The Shocker" and "Monkey Joe Prime" a couple of weeks ago.


/Still giggle when I read "The Shocker".
//Still think of a sinister squirrel with a goatee stalking Squirrel Girl

Egad! Didn't even realize my "Monkey Joe Prime" theory ever caught on....to be honest I'm kinda flattered.... :smallbiggrin:

Still I mean come on.... "Slippy Pete"....that just oozes disturbing...

[Tor the Fallen]

Cthulhu could probably beat Batman, as well.

[kpenguin]

Cthulhu? No cheesed up cosmic beings allowed, dude.

[Mummy king]

You.....you fill me with undescribable fear.....WHAT ARE YOU!?

I? I am a monument to all your sins. I am a king of a throne long dead. I am the lord of salt and sand and time.
I
Am
MUMMY KING!

[Indon]

Merlin the Wizard.
1. Merlin is a Wizard. Wizards are equal to or approach the power of Batman.

2. Merlin lives backwards through time, experiencing the future before he reaches the past. Even if time is non-linear or none-existant, both Batman and Merlin experience time in a linear function, albeit in different directions. Merlin would have near perfect knowledge, especially compared to Batman.

3. Merlin is defeated by a witch sometime in the misty pasts of Britannia. He is not defeated by Batman. Since Merlin,coming from the future, is sealed in a cave by a witch in the past, Merlin must necessarily defeat all oponents between the end of time (or whenever he came from) and during whatever period you fancy King Arthur was riding about it. This means that the pseudo-modern Caped Crusader would be unable to defeat Merlin, as Batman exists in the pseudo-present, and Merlin is defeated in the pseudo-past.

Except that Merlin is simply "Born" when his body dies and "Dies" when he is born.

So not only does Merlin die long before Bruce Wayne is born (though I guess time travel could be used), but he's probably 'born' beforehand as well, as Merlin appears to be a mortal human (rather than, say, a demon or fae creature).

[idioscosmos]

Egad! Didn't even realize my "Monkey Joe Prime" theory ever caught on....to be honest I'm kinda flattered.... :smallbiggrin:

Still I mean come on.... "Slippy Pete"....that just oozes disturbing...

Well, it didn't take off with anyone of decent repute around here, so don't get too big a head. Aside from that "Slippy Pete" isn't anywhere near as oozy-disturby as someone saying "I'll bet the Ultimate Shocker could take Squirrel Girl"

The shocker is slang for a very naughty thing. Trust me, I did a google image search to see what The Shocker looked like and it came back with some stuff that did NOT come from the mind of Stan Lee.

[ElfLad]

Cthulhu could probably beat Batman, as well.


Quickly, Robin! The Bat-C'thulhu Repellent!

[Tor the Fallen]

Except that Merlin is simply "Born" when his body dies and "Dies" when he is born.

So not only does Merlin die long before Bruce Wayne is born (though I guess time travel could be used), but he's probably 'born' beforehand as well, as Merlin appears to be a mortal human (rather than, say, a demon or fae creature).

Merlin is a fae. Or was. Or whatever. Or was he the offspring of an incubus? I can't remember

[kpenguin]

I thought that Merlin's mother was raped by a demon and was going to become the antichrist, but a priest saved him thus giving him those wizard powers. Or something like that. Such legendary figures have multiple origin stories anyway.

[Tor the Fallen]

I was going by the backward's living Merlin in "The Once and Future King" so the dying in the past, which has already happened, would ensure victory over Batman.

[Dhavaer]

In one of the Merlin stories I heard, he was the son of an incubus and a nun. He got his goodness from his mother and his magic and sex drive from his father.

[Finn Solomon]

The Mid-Niter could take on Batman. He's just as built and knows how to fight as well as Bats before the whole cybernetic enhancement implants procedure. It'll be epic and bloody and the stuff that legends are made of, but I think Mid-Niter just shades it.

Someone just has to draw that fight. Bring it to life!

[Sebastian Bux]

The big advantage of Batman: give him 30 minutes and he can beat anyone you want.

And for that reason alone, just about anyone can beat Batman ... hell, the Domino's Pizza Man could do it. You just have to get to batman before the 30 minute timer expires.

[Telonius]

Wesley Willis (http://www.lyricstime.com/wesley-willis-i-wupped-batman-s-ass-lyrics.html).

[Midnighter1021]

here is my list
( I really dont read DC so all of my picks will be marvel guys, or Frank Miller)
definetly: Venom, Carnage, Toxin, Dr. Doom, Punisher, King Leonidas (in a fist fight)
probably: Spider man, Wolverine, Kraven the Hunter, Cap

[Zakama]

:vaarsuvius:

nuff said.

[LCR]

Darkwing Duck. Probably been said, though.

[GuesssWho]

JtHM, Doc Ock, V, Eugene Tooms, Wilbur Whateley, Dr. Lecter, 7 of 9, and pretty much anyone else. :P


The big advantage of Batman: give him 30 minutes and he can beat anyone you want.
And for that reason alone, just about anyone can beat Batman ... hell, the Domino's Pizza Man could do it. You just have to get to batman before the 30 minute timer expires.

[PsyBlade]

Of course, there's the matter that Batman has lost on purpose before. Namely to get caught and setup victory for the good guys from inside the enemy's supposedly impregnable fortress. And Batman has also beaten Batman, but that's interdimensional travel, and still OUR Batman technically wins in the end, so-

[TheEmerged]

RE: Midnighter. Okay, I realize my Anti-Authority(tm) bias is showing here but the moment Batman finds out about the cybernetic brain bit the fight is over.

I mean really, what idiot puts electric devices that can be disrupted inside their most vulnerable organ?

And by Anti-Authority(tm) I mean the comic Authority.

[J_Muller]

here is my list
( I really dont read DC so all of my picks will be marvel guys, or Frank Miller)
definetly: Venom, Carnage, Toxin, Dr. Doom, Punisher, King Leonidas (in a fist fight)
probably: Spider man, Wolverine, Kraven the Hunter, Cap

Batman's beaten the Punisher. It was a crossover-thingy where Jigsaw came to Gotham and teamed up with the Joker, and after Batman and the Punisher chased them down and caught them, Batman had to fight the Punisher to stop him from killing them.

Dr. Doom would win though.

[Rob Knotts]

I think you guys are missing a bigger picture here, mainly that Batman usually doesn't define "winning" the way his opponents (or even other superheroes) do. Generally, Batman's intention isn't to defeat the villain through violence, just stop him from doing villainy; if that involves beating his opponent senseless, then so be it. But it's not unusual for Batman to let a bad guy beat the hell out of him just to keep the villain occupied while the police or the League or whoever shows up to take the villain in. Bat's doesn't care about winning battles, he just wants to win the war.

[GuesssWho]

Yes, that's true. But a lot of these guys would factor that in and escape also.

[Rob Knotts]

Yes, that's true. But a lot of these guys would factor that in and escape also.If not Batman would have been a very short-lived character:smallwink:

[GuesssWho]

I'd like to see Batman vs. Nny, I really would. They're a lot alike, in a sick sort of way.
Or Nny vs. the Joker, actually . . .

[kerberos]

here is my list
( I really dont read DC so all of my picks will be marvel guys, or Frank Miller)
definetly: Venom, Carnage, Toxin, Dr. Doom, Punisher, King Leonidas (in a fist fight)
probably: Spider man, Wolverine, Kraven the Hunter, Cap
King Leonidas? No way, He's primarily and armed fighter, not an unarmed one, and while probably good isn't the best in the world which Batman is or is close to being.

I also have no idea why the Punisher is in the definitely and Spider-man is in possibly, leaving out the fact that Batman has beaten the Punisher, the simple fact is that the Punisher is at a disadvantage is fights versus good guys. His main skill is with firearms which he can't use against good guys, he can't even have them arrested, and in hand to hand combat he is vastly inferior to Spidey. The same can be said for Cap and probably Kraven and Wolverine as well.

[Shadow of the Sun]

I now think that Morlun would- the only reason Spiderman beat him was because of a deus ex machina.

Also, he supposedly hits harder than Thor and the Hulk, and can feed of life energy. So I think he would have Batman down pretty easily.

[GuesssWho]

Yeah, Morlun's pretty nasty.
Mystique could beat him in a Catwoman sort of way . . . ;)

[Shadow of the Sun]

Would Batman count as having bats as his totem animal? It would be interesting, at least.


I'd love to see Morlun rip out Bats' eye.

[GuesssWho]

Yeah, I hate Batman.
Actually, most DC heroes are boring. Except in Vertego, but that doesn't really count.

[afternoon]

I'm pretty sure Pikachu, from the animated TV series, could defeat anything in existence. It's made of pure plotonium. Name something, and I will tell you how Pikachu will defeat it.

[GuesssWho]

Alright.

Cthulhu.

[PsyBlade]

I'm pretty certain would have enough information on Cthulu to have an Anti-Cthulu plan prepared.

[GuesssWho]

. . . You've never read Lovecraft, have you?
Cthulhu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu

[TheEmerged]

To the tune of Maria!

The most horrible sound I ever heard:
Cthulhu, Cthulhu, Cthulhu, Cthulhu...
All the terrible sounds of the world in a single word...
Cthulhu!
I've just heard the call of Cthulhu,
And suddenly my life
is filling up with strife
and dread.
Cthulhu!
I've just met the cult of Cthulhu,
Their articles and signs
Descending out of times
Unsaid!
Cthulhu!
Say it loud and you go insane,
Say it soft and it still warps your brain.
Cthulhu!
They'll never stop chanting Cthulhu!
The most horrible sound I ever heard.
Cthulhu.

No, I can't take credit for that, printed it out from a Livejournal Metaquote a while back.

[GuesssWho]

Oh, DEAR . . .
Speaking of which, I wrote a story that was the JLA vs. Cthulhu.
Cthulhu won, of course . . .

[Shadow of the Sun]

Batman just annoys me. I'm against killing a person who can be redeemed or rehabilitated, but the Joker cannot. If he killed him, think of the lives Batman would save?

Of course, I'd like to see Morlun up against Superman.

[SeptimusMagistos]

I believe Batman was beaten by Red Son (If not, I'm mad at Wikipedia)

Also, there are several immortal people who could conceivably beat him by just waiting for him to die and laughing over his grave.

[J_Muller]

I believe Batman was beaten by Red Son (If not, I'm mad at Wikipedia)

Also, there are several immortal people who could conceivably beat him by just waiting for him to die and laughing over his grave.

Hmm... hasn't he beaten Savage before? I know that in an "elseworlds" storyline Savage beat him when they were on a space station by grabbing him and jumping out an airlock--they were caught in Earth's gravitational pull, and they both burned up in reentry, but there was enough of Savage left that he just regrew and walked away...

[TheEmerged]

RE: Red Son. Be prepared to be mad at Wikipedia. "Red Son" Batman defeated "Red Son" Superman -- and pretty much had "Red Son" Wonder Woman in his clutches too, but she managed to escape by writer fiat and saved "Red Son" Superman

[GuesssWho]

/\Like your sig.

As for the question-not even Superman could defeat Cthulhu, so . . .

[mroozee]

Batman has a super-power; the ONLY types of confrontations that he can find himself entangled in are:
1) You are cosmically powerful and win
2) You are unknown to the DCU and win
3) You win temporarily only to lose in the rematch
4) You win but Bat's defeat was irrelevant to his larger goal
5) You just plain lose

The Batman power means that no other type of confrontation can exist. Removing this power is like removing Superman's strength, Xavier's telepathy, or Flash's speed.

Could Superman beat Batman in a boxing match? Yes... the premise involves removing Batman's power but not Superman's. Could Galactus beat Batman? Yes... he is cosmically powered. Could Flash beat a fully powered Batman? No. Flash is not cosmically powerful and he is known in the DCU. Either Flash loses (now or in the rematch) or Flash's "victory" is meaningless as Batman's goals were elsewhere. More likely, this confrontation simply doesn't occur.

This is sort of like the question, "What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?" The answer is: both can only exist if they never meet.

Doom, of course, is cosmic-level.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Curse you Wikipedia! You betrayed me!

[Mummy king]

From the ultimate showdown song, we know that Chuck Norris beat batman. However, Chuck oozes freaky cosmic powers. BUT Gandalf the grey and gandalf the white and Monty python and the holy grail's black knight and benito mussilini and the blue meanie, cowboy curtis adn jambi the genie, robocop, terminator, captain kirk, darth vader, lo-pan, superman, every single power ranger, bill S Preston and theodore Logan, spock, the rock, doc ock and hulk hogan defeated chuck norris, therefore all of the above > batman.

/thread.

[GuesssWho]

Well said, Mummy King, although I dislike Chuck Norris myself.
(I suggest you get a mummy avatar, by the way.)

[kerberos]

From the ultimate showdown song, we know that Chuck Norris beat batman. However, Chuck oozes freaky cosmic powers. BUT Gandalf the grey and gandalf the white and Monty python and the holy grail's black knight and benito mussilini and the blue meanie, cowboy curtis adn jambi the genie, robocop, terminator, captain kirk, darth vader, lo-pan, superman, every single power ranger, bill S Preston and theodore Logan, spock, the rock, doc ock and hulk hogan defeated chuck norris, therefore all of the above > batman.

/thread.
Only in combination, and even then your logic only works if you disregard both the posibility of a paper-rock-scissors relation and the fact that batman was in fact wounded.

[gooddragon1]

Well, the problem is that the only viable person against Chuck Norris is Mr. T, but even then its iffy since chuck's power grows at a rate that is beyond exponential. Bruce Lee did manage to beat Chuck Norris, but that was before he had his roundhouse kick. Most fights are just 1 kick away from ending. That and his roundhouse kick seems to be able to extend into the past and future, when its over, its over. Batman seems to be a melee build, I'd suggest CoDzilla or a full caster build/gish

[InfernalistGame]

Somebody mentioned the Taskmaster? How could I forget him?! Excellent point, and one I support wholeheartedly.

On the matter of Taskmaster versus Batman. It's happened, and sadly, my man Tasky got owned and fast. The fearsome part is, the more rematches they have, the more the advantage swings in Taskmaster's favor, as he learns BATMAN's style, using his knowledge of it to use other styles to break it. Like, combining Captain America's close combat with Bullseye's accuracy, while knowing every flaw in Batman's defenses. And let's not do the retarded thing...

Rogue absorbs Mimic, Taskmaster and Mystique as she did Ms. Marvel, and owns ANYONE. Batman definately included.

[Finn Solomon]

But can Rogue get close enough to Batman in order to absorb him? I think he'd find it fairly easy to keep her away from him.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Peter Pan could beat Batman in Neverland, mainly because of more powerful plot protection.

[Dhavaer]

But can Rogue get close enough to Batman in order to absorb him? I think he'd find it fairly easy to keep her away from him.

She doesn't have to absorb him, he doesn't have powers. She has Mimic + Taskmaster + Mystique + Mary Marvel. She doesn't have a great deal of limitations at that point.

[StudlyDuck]

Even if he doesn't have powers, Rogue can absorb skills, knowledge, memories, and so forth. Which brings up the question of whether or not she could handle Batman's personality without going insane.

[J_Muller]

Even if he doesn't have powers, Rogue can absorb skills, knowledge, memories, and so forth. Which brings up the question of whether or not she could handle Batman's personality without going insane.

That would be the best Batman ownage ever. She beats him up and absorbs his mind, but he wins because she just can't cope with his mind.

[Bluelantern]

to beat Batman you need.

BATMAN!
One-million!

To the guys who don't know, DC-one-million was a company crossover with where all comics are show as in 1000000 months in the future. the 853 century.

And seriously, the batman from that future is the pwnager!

[GoC]

An evil Flash.
He just hires some goons with assualt weapons and waits til the bat shows up. When he does, Evil Flash strolls up to him at 100,000 km/s and hits Bats over the head 10000 times.

[Haggis_McCrablice]

Well, Bane broke Batman's back in the comics, incapacitating him and relegating him to months of painful recovery. Of course, in both animated series this has been severely toned down.

In B:TAS Pengin temporarily blinded him; in The Batman he caused Batman to develop temporary amnesia. Both are conditions that could have easily been permanent, and that he had to work to overcome (with help from his Bat-entourage, of course).

And in the latter series, it wasn't any villain with a brilliant gimmick, a spiffy costume, and a great name who killed The Bat. It was a nobody named Francis Grey who looked like a down-on-his-luck country-western singer... and happened to have a talent for chronokinesis. However, Grey used his talent to take it all back--becoming The Bat-Villain Who Never Was.

[Shadow of the Sun]

In general, I just want someone to come along and punch him until his face resembles the Chicxulub Extinction event crater.

[mutecebu]

Merlin might be human-ish, but really not human. He's creepy from birth, before he meets Morgan Morgan le Fay. He's described as the "son of the devil" sometimes, once as a "child without a father", but he fits the immage of something Faerie.

Responce:
"Quick! The Demon/Faerie Creature repellant!"

[darkblade]

to beat Batman you need.

BATMAN!
One-million!

To the guys who don't know, DC-one-million was a company crossover with where all comics are show as in 1000000 months in the future. the 853 century.

And seriously, the batman from that future is the pwnager!

Batman from that time is essentially Iron Man with a bat emblem.

[Kraggi]

Soviet Russia could kick batman's arse back to thursday.

[BardicDuelist]

Just to point this out, Green Arrow beat Batman, and almost killed him (when his inhibitions were taken away), if it weren't for Black Canary stopping him.

That proves that anyone can beat Bats (since his villians don't see him as omnipotent). The thing is is that people generally don't because he is the hero. That is why almost any other protagonist wins.

[GuesssWho]

/\True.

I'd like to see Batman vs. the Gorgons, myself . . . He'd make a better statue than a superhero. :nale:

[EvilJames]

I don't know if this has been mentioned but Deathstroke can beat Batman.

[Whoracle]

Dunno if its been posted before, but the search didn't turn anything up, so here it comes:

To defeat Batman, one simply had to give good ol' Yagami 'Kira' Light in Tokyo a call. With the Whatsitsname Eyes his sidekick has, he wouldn't even need to know Batsies real Name or come close to him. Simply watch a TV-Broadcast from Gotham, write the name into the Death Note and *BAM* Instant guano.

[Tirian]

Dunno if its been posted before, but the search didn't turn anything up, so here it comes:

To defeat Batman, one simply had to give good ol' Yagami 'Kira' Light in Tokyo a call. With the Whatsitsname Eyes his sidekick has, he wouldn't even need to know Batsies real Name or come close to him. Simply watch a TV-Broadcast from Gotham, write the name into the Death Note and *BAM* Instant guano.

Except that Batman survived essentially the same scheme from Shondra Kinsolving during Knightfall, so not only do you have plot protection but also repetition.

[Whoracle]

He did? Oh, gotta do a bit of reading on this. I would really like to know how they justified THAT one...

[Alex Kidd]

Peter Pan could beat Batman in Neverland, mainly because of more powerful plot protection.

This, made me realize who could beat Batman. Everytime, for infinite rematches, forever. The single being with the greatest plot armour ever.

Road Runner
No matter what plan Batman came up with, no matter how brilliant or incredible it was, it would always explode in his face and make him fall off a cliff.

Meep Meep!

[Finn Solomon]

It seems that the greater the discrepancy between Batman's abilities and his opponent's abilities, the more glorious the victory for Batman. Therefore a nonpowered opponent should give him quite a fight.

The Punisher is the one to kill Batman. Frank's a peak human too, and he's a fully paid up member of the NRA, unlike Batman.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but Batman admitted in a confrontation that Captain America could probably beat him. I thought that was kind of silly until I really thought about it- Cap has no weaknesses that Batman could exploit (they all have to do with innocents and people Cap cares for- lines Batman would never cross), has plenty of bravery and willpower to overcome the fright the Bat incurs, is physically either a match or superior to Batman, and is likewise an excellent tactician and combatant. Thus why Batman's whole modus operandi when he encountered and sized up Captain America was "Surrender and join forces, immediately".

[Ninja Squirrel]

I had to join just to post in this topic. not that im not interested in order of the stick, of course.:smallbiggrin:

Personally, i feel that there are only a handful of people who can defeat batman, defining it as knocking him unconscious or kill him, by themselves. the fight will be with both of them having prior knowledge of who they are fighting. im mainly using marvel and dc heroes and villians.

Firstly, we have to look at the physical aspect. we know(or should at least accept) that in both universes, batman would rate in the top 10 of all hand to hand, non-firearm( including swords, staffs etc), non powered martial artists. Contenders for this would be Deathstroke, Shiva, Nightwing, , Karate Kid, Bane, Wolverine and Capt America(technically powered, but i'll put them here), Cassandra Cain, Nick Fury, Spiderman.

Out of all these, Batman will win Karate kid, Nightwing, Bane, Wolverine, Nick Fury definately. nightwing, nick and bane need no explanation, but wolvey's is a bit harder. However, we have to realise wolvey is not as fast, smart or scehming enough, and despite all of his healing, he can still be killed or disabled easily. this has been done before by many marvel villians, and it is no doubt that batman can win with the same method. Deathstroke was beaten, and considering hes not supposed to be as good as david cain, who bats has beaten, deathstroke loses as well

This leaves spidey, capt, cassandra, and shiva. Spidey can be beaten physically, especially since he has no martial arts tarining( mebbe he had, but i forgot). running around trying to use his reflexes to dodge punches will only result in batman using some other "read your moves martail arts thingy" to beat spidey. Captain america will prove one of the toughest fights, since he's supposed to be the optimal soldier and all. But remember that captain is only a soldier, with enhanced whatever there is to enhance. His knowledge of martial arts adn self defense is at most knowledgable. Batman knows everything there is. Batman wins based on more experience, and the fact that capts dead now, while bats isnt. Cassandra Cain and Shiva have sparred with batman before, the outcome always varied. Therefore i feel its a draw between them, neither side winning.

Physical: Draw with Cassandra and Shiva

Next, for the people with weapons aspect. Only the GLs, Punisher, Bullseye and that Witchblade person should pose a threat. Batman has beaten GLs before, he'll beat them again. and again. as for the punisher, all frank does is take out guns and shoot people. frank has been scared before, by capt marvel, and frank has been shot in situations, like 10 men against him, to maintain realism. Batman has seemingly never been hit(barring some exceptions), cannot be scared, and even if were to take a bullet has super secret kevlar armour protecting him. A sniper would be unable to track him, going by the fact that even superman himself loses sight of batman. so shooting batman is out of the question, leaving frank castle kinda useless. bullseye, who can use anything as a weapon, will fight with batman hand to hand after realising projectiles are useless. knowing that daredevil has beaten bulls before, and that batman is the master of martial arts, bat wins. Against the witchblade,however, batman could try to scare or use the witchblade, but neither are very viable options. using the witchblade would entail a high amount of luck. therefore, barring luck, witchblade user familiar with it wins.

Weapons: Witchblade wins

In the magical aspect, we realise that batman is highly lacking, as he does not use magic, and thus highly disadvantaged. However, we have to realise that batman has still managed to defeat, intimidate and scare most of the magic users that are humans, therefore we can exclude them. Any magic user with a weakness, or if the user is scared of something, that user cannot win batman. This leaves us with the spectre(not as hal), doom, any magic user stronger than dr fate(the lords of order etc), any angel higher up than zauriel. Batman has managed to physically kick and chase away the spectre. however, i feel that without help, batman loses to all except doom. Batman can defeat dr doom(not any of his doombots), even though doom uses magic.
Batman has contingencies, and plans for everything. doom has to. However, doom has been defeated before, he has weaknesses to exploit, and suffers from too much arrogance and hubris. Thinking yourself impossible to beat will only lead to failure and defeat, as shown by all the times he was beaten by FF. Batman will use this method to drive doom mad and whack him up.

Magic: Most people stronger than dr fate

With the length of this post already, im concentrating on one more aspect: Super powered nearly immortal physically strongest creatures. The shaggy man, doomsday, darkseid, thanos, thor, hulk. Batman could have hypnotised the shaggy man, but supes stopped him. so bats wins on that. against doomsday, batman faces a mirror double. doomsday was meant to be unstoppable, without any weakness, unkillable and everything else. batman too. so its a draw, with both destroying the planet in the process, and batman breathing on in space, with a staring competition, which he wins. Batman cannot physically face darkseid, but he has managed to defeat him or force darkseid to do something before. however, in single combat, bats loses. Against thanos and the hulk, batman gets the infinity gauntlet from thanos back in time and beats him, and he turns the hulk back into banner. possible to beat the hulk since its been done before. Against thor, batman loses unless he can reverse thor back to his "cursed" human form or trick him. Trickery is a high option, and this means a draw.

Super powered stuff: Draw with Doomsday, Thor. lose to Darkseid


And lastly, batman draws with the following: post spinach popeye, bugs bunny, the road runner.

[Blue Paladin]

Firstly, we have to look at the physical aspect. we know(or should at least accept) that in both universes, batman would rate in the top 10 of all hand to hand, non-firearm( including swords, staffs etc), non powered martial artists. Contenders for this would be Deathstroke, Shiva, Nightwing, , Karate Kid, Bane, Wolverine and Capt America(technically powered, but i'll put them here), Cassandra Cain, Nick Fury, Spiderman.

Out of all these, Batman will win [against] Karate kid...Wait. Stop.

What?

Unless you're talking about Ralph Macchio and not Val Amorr... Val beats anyone hand-to-hand, short of Superman level. At which point he ties. That's how broken he is.

[Grod_The_Giant]

<stuff>
WTF? No offense, but your logic is full of holes.

Deathstroke: He has powers. All his abilities are ten times base human, and he uses '90& of his brain' (he was created when it was thought people used only 10%). Batman is going down.
Shiva: like you said, their fights have had variable outcomes in the comics, so a tie is probably right (if I had to pick a side, I'd say her).
Nightwing: Bats would win. I agree.
Karate Kid: according to recent comics, he's a 15th level fighter, and Batman is only a 12th. Batman survived and won by trickery, but in a straight fight Batman would get owned. With gadgets, Bats might win.
Bane: He slaughtered a tired Batman when they fought. Batman would probably win if he was rested, though.
Wolverine: I hate to sound like a fanboy, but Bats is down, no questions asked. Wolverine has superhuman abilities, and no qualms about killing. I think Bats is dead.
Captain America: He doesn't really have powers, but his attributes have been enhanced enough that he could outlast Batman in a fight. Contrary to what you think, Cap is a highly skilled martial artist. Hell, the Ultimate Cap took down the Hulk. I think this is way too close to call.
Cassandra: She beat Shiva, and she has bat-gadgets. She'd probably take Batman.
Nick Fury: Yeah, this one is Batman.
Spider-Man: Super-human strength and agility. One solid punch on Bats, and it's over. With his spider-sense, there's practically no way Batman will land a good hit, and Spidy should be able to land quite a few. Batman's down, barring unfair deux-ex-machina.

GL: against anything but a rookie, Batman has no chance. No yellow weakness now, and GLs are fearless. That's why he hated Hal: Hal was the 'man without fear,' and what is Batman without fear? Just a man. When the hell did a GL loose to BATMAN?
Punisher: I don't know. Batman would win in close combat, but at range Punisher would probably win- especially since he's a GOOD sniper that shoots to kill.
Bullseye- I think Bats is dead, unless he can just appear out of nowhere right next to Bullseye. He's got adamantium on some of his bones, and he can and has killed with a toothpick. He once spat a tooth through someone's head. Daredevil's radar sense and enhanced normal sense let him dodge, but I doubt Bats can realistically dodge long enough to win.
Witchblade: Who? I don't know enough to call this.

Batman may win against Doom, but I think he looses against a serious magic user like Fate of Zatanna. Hell, two words from out lovely lady mage and he looses: "namtaB eid!" Batman does not have a supernatural ability to scare people. You don't see every crooks he stops instantly soiling their pants and surrendering, do you?

Against super-powered foes, Batman looses unless they have a *glaring* weakness and total lack of even half a brain. He only really beat the crap out of Superman once, and that was in Superman: Red sun. He might be able to get some kind of anti-gamma radiation thingie, but DC doesn't usually go for that kind of deux-ex-machina stupid-science solution.
Batman is 'unstoppable?' Give me a break! Doomsday would leave Batman a smear in the ground before he knows he's there. Batman has no weaknesses, true...besides HUMAN strength and durability. Doomsday has no weaknesses either...but Superman or greater level physical abilities.
Thanos would murder Batman. The infinity gauntlet, last I checked, is split up between the likes of Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic and Charles Xavier (no idea what the effects of World War Hulk will be on that). Batman sure as hell ain't getting that. Thanos has high levels of superhuman strength, endurance, and energy powers.
Darkseid would omega effect Batman in half a second.
Thor would nail Batman with an obscenely super-strong punch and knock him out instantly.

You fanboy...

[SpikeFightwicky]

I'm pretty certain would have enough information on Cthulu to have an Anti-Cthulu plan prepared.

Having enough information about Cthulhu would actually be worse:
If Batman knew enough about Cthulhu to have an anti-Cthulhu plan, Batman would likely no longer be a sane individual, and Joker would try to foil his insane plots, because he needs to pass the time now that he's not the craziest character.

[nothingclever]

This topic should die. The answer is simple, anyone with good offensive powers.

The only reason Batman is never killed is because of the power of plot. Batman only dies when the writers let him die. The Punisher gets held at gunpoint at point blank range plenty of times and never dies because the writers don't allow him to. Any time he can't disarm someone's gun or roll out of the line of fire his enemies conveniently hesitate/leave him for dead/let someone/thing else kill him/whatever. Otherwise they'd have to cancel a perfectly good comic that'd been going on for hundreds of issues.

It makes no sense how people will argue Batman could beat characters way out of his league like the Human Torch in a fair fight when he'd just fly over Batman and instantly turn him to ashes before he could run away and start planning.

Besides that even if you gave each character time to prepare before the fight I'd say any character with psychic powers would just crush his brain from a distance or read his mind in order to find out all of his plans making them useless.

Also Wolverine would kill Batman every single time if he doesn't have time to prepare regardless of how good Batman supposedly is in martial arts. It is simple fact. Unless Batman has super strength/speed/reflexes officially listed as his powers he will not beat someone who does who is roughly as skilled.

[GuesssWho]

Having enough information about Cthulhu would actually be worse:
If Batman knew enough about Cthulhu to have an anti-Cthulhu plan, Batman would likely no longer be a sane individual, and Joker would try to foil his insane plots, because he needs to pass the time now that he's not the craziest character.

LOL
No f*cking A! Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn R'lyeh!

I wrote a story about that, its on Fanfiction.net.

[TheTurnipKing]

Why make this thread? Go rez an old one. A while ago someone made the same thread and everyone got tired of it so they made a bunch of silly vs threads that were equally cheesy.

It's excatly as one person in this thread said. Anyone can beat Batman because he's human. He could be killed just like Captain America was by a sniper. The only reason this doesn't happen is because the writers won't let him die. It has nothing to do with how powerful the character actually is. All somewhat powerful characters beat Batman by default because they are simply too strong. Flash for instance automatically wins regardless of contingency plans because they should never count. Since when do you give one character all the time in the world and the best possible equipment/situation and the element of surprise when comparing it to another? "Cuz that's his power" doesn't count. If both characters get to prepare or both characters don't Batman will lose against most people. As soon as you say Batman has time to prepare or he conveniently has the best anti-character weapon on him you are automatically making the matchup pointless because you're giving one side an unrealistic advantage. If one person gets to prepare everyone should. Now I feel like a nerd for actually wasting my time typing this and I know someone will still say if Batman prepares for 6million years while some guy gets no time at all he'll win and it's perfectly fair.
Batman doesn't need time to prepare - he already has. That's the distinction.

As someone noted, he has plans that can nullify any member of the justice league. He had plans to take over Gotham City. Over the years he'd had all the time in the world to work out anti-everybody and anti-everything plans, so should the occasion ever arise he's already prepared.

[GuesssWho]

In DCverse, yeah. Not otherwise.

[Pigboy]

The Spot...'nuff said.

[Grod_The_Giant]

he has plans that can nullify any member of the justice league

only if caught by ambush. I read the TPB of that arc (when Ra's a Ghul got the files). The 'vibration bullet' would never hit Flash if he's in speed mode, Aquaman could still disembowel him before the anti-water fear gas started causing a problem*, and Superman could probably squish him at super-speed before the effects of the red K kick in, just off the top of my head.

Plus, some of those strategies smarted of deus-ex-machina (yay, I finally learned to spell the goddamned word!). I can buy the red kryptonite and fear gas, but the 'nanites that convert trace elements into magnesium'? The 'vibration bullet'? Come on.

*I frankly never got this one. Sure, he's scared to death of water, but why can't someone just splash him with some, or hold him down while his skin is moistened again? This isn't a fight-winning strategy, this is a SLOW murder strategy.

[Grod_The_Giant]

4.) Black Panther. Black King takes Black Knight. It's too cool a title to miss. 'Nuff said.

but isn't Black Panther kind of Marvel's Batman rip-off? Think about it...

[Setra]

Road Runner
No matter what plan Batman came up with, no matter how brilliant or incredible it was, it would always explode in his face and make him fall off a cliff.

Meep Meep!

I'd say you won the thread

[Dawnstrider_Moogle]

I can buy the red kryptonite and fear gas, but the 'nanites that convert trace elements into magnesium'?

I always thought it was interesting that J'onn was the only one who managed to figure out a way past Batman's plan for him, ne?

[Leohat]

The main problem here is one of who gets to define the terms of the battle. That's the main thing that Batman is really good at, defining the terms of the battle.
That's one the things that allowed Bane to beat Batman in the Knight-fall series. The first thing Bane did was bust open Arkham asylum, forcing Batman to deal with nearly every major opponent that he has. Then and only did Bane force Batman in to battle. Bane defined the terms of the battle and he won. Some time latter (I THINK it was part of the Contagion series) a fresh Batman who was allowed to define the terms of the battle pretty much pwned Bane.
In the JLA Tower of Babel series, by using Batman's secret files, Ra's al Ghul was able to define the terms of battle and thus pwned the entire JLA.
In Kingdom Come TPB, Batman used Capt. Marvel to counter Superman.
In Dark Knight Returns, again Batman defined the terms and pwned Superman.
In an old Marvel/DC crossover, Batman beats the Hulk by using sleep gas.

There are tons of Batman issues where Batman confronts something/someone where he can't or doesn't define the battle and gets pwned, then later he comes back in a situation where he defines the terms.
I think a good example of this is Year One. In his first outing he get pretty well pwned by the Police. He gets out of it by changing the rules of the conflict by summoning the bats. He then further defines the conflict by getting James Gordon as his ally.
In order to beat Batman, a villain has to use the Bane model, DON'T GIVE HIM TIME TO THINK/PLAN. In my opinion that is why it's been said that Batman would have a tough time with Capt. America. I think that Capt. America would realize this and use it not to mention that Capt. America is similar in that he plans/thinks and controls the terms of the battle.

As for Batman vs. Cosmic level foes. Well, thats fighting WAY above his weight class. My bet is that he would get someone/thing to do the actually fighting for him.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single time, given a opportunity to think/plan that Batman has really been pwned.

[GuesssWho]

That's because he knows everyone already! Nothing surprises him anymore.
Bring in someone new, esp. someone unusual, and all his pretty little plans fall apart.

[Ninja Squirrel]

@ Grod : How could you tell? :smallbiggrin:

ok, with the fanboy stuff out of the way, lets deal with some of the stuff i said, and the more sticky points:smallbiggrin:

Deathstroke:
Abilities: Enhanced physical attributes,(Batman is supposed to epitomize the pinnacle of human ability, but im guessing he loses out, but only slightly)
Heightened mental capacity,(Batman is the world's "greatest detective", so he ought to be better. though there are others smarter than him, of course)
Regenerative healing factor, (Crud, bats loses, but never mind)
Expert martial artist,(hmm... how much training has Death actually had? how much martial arts can he know? Not much has been said, while we've been shown how Batman was supposed to have had since young? Bats wins)
Skilled armed/unarmed combatant, (same point, so bats wins)
Master tactician and strategist, (Through all the examples shown where Bats more or less diffuses the enemy threat through his plan alone, with help of others, im thinking Bats wins as well)
Access to hi-tech equipment.(Bruce rich boy wins)

conclusion: Bats wins

Val Armorr/Karate Kid(sorry i missed him)
Ok, so hes mastered every martial art in the 30th century, and somehow managed to do some Klenarian muscle lock voodoo magic:smallsmile: thing against superboy. and yet, bats is able to hold him off for such a long time? bats managed to trick him, and will be able to do so again. whether he can actually win with this trickery is too close to call.

note: karate kid has not beaten, or even tied with superboy, barring that muscle lock thingamagig, where even then superboy would have broken out of.

conclusion: Too hard to tell

Wolvey: Has wolverine been taken down by people without powers before? yes he has. Also, we have to standardize his healing factor first. How much can he heal, and how fast? Lets say he swings a claw at bats. bats ducks, all too experienced with bladed weapons swung at him before, and now has a free swing at wolvey. muscle lock, anyone?
Wolverine is an adept martial artist, but he does not have enough skill. He can and has been knocked out or disabled in marvel before, by various more or less human characters(like capt). Bat wins through experience of Skilled combat, and tactics

conclusion: bat wins

Spidey: Bats has taken punches from superman. dont ask me why he didnt die, but he didnt. so im guessing that considering all the people spidey has punched before, and not died (like scorpion... blah blah random characters)
bats is able to take his punches. As for spider sense, it lets spidey automatically dodge danger as a reflex, rite? so bats can feint a hit here, and whack there, a likely area where he knows spidey should go to, and also there too, another area, just in case.

conclusion: meh. both knock each other out.

GL: why is the most dangerous person kyle considers in the JLA to be batman? that's because he knows that batman knows any weakness he has. thats an important point about batman's strength. he more or less wins anyone with a weakness. however, against hal, yah, bats ought to lose. not against guy though. remember the punch?:smallbiggrin:

conclusion: wins most. bah to hal.

Punisher and Bullseye: To win, both will have to shoot batman with something, before he gets to them. to shoot him, you have to see him first, no? if superman manages to lose sight of him, im quite sure the punisher and bullseye wont know where he is either.

conclusion: bat wins

Zatanna(and co): Shes scared of bats. you know she is. but ya, its kinda out of his field, unless he knows magic secretly or has some anti magic ring hidden in his belt(cant count that out, can we?)

conclusion: meh. magic wins.

super powered foes: I had to try :smallbiggrin: but if the guy has a weakness, he loses. and remember how batman managed to plan and get captain atom into darkseid, or something like that, when he fired his omega beams

human torch: the torch cant fly underwater, can he? or at least, his flames can be put out, right? so bats does that.

psychics in marvel: with psychic shielding. short of the phoenix, there arent other characters that can overcome "all shields in existence, man made or natural" , right? (i hope) so bats has shields. lots of them

road runner, bugs bunny: both require active participation or chasing after them to have unfortunate events happen to the pursuer. batman doesnt do anything, and carries out a staring contest. a rock falls on him. he geets up. repeat till both go away at the end of the show. Bats wins!

[Doompuppy]

road runner, bugs bunny: both require active participation or chasing after them to have unfortunate events happen to the pursuer. batman doesnt do anything, and carries out a staring contest. a rock falls on him. he geets up. repeat till both go away at the end of the show. Bats wins!

Knowing the laws of Road Runner (and to some extent Bugs Bunny), Bats will too late realize that he's engaged in said staring contest while standing on some train tracks. In glue.

[Grod_The_Giant]

@ Grod : How could you tell? :smallbiggrin:

ok, with the fanboy stuff out of the way, lets deal with some of the stuff i said, and the more sticky points:smallbiggrin:

Deathstroke:
Abilities: Enhanced physical attributes,(Batman is supposed to epitomize the pinnacle of human ability, but im guessing he loses out, but only slightly)
Heightened mental capacity,(Batman is the world's "greatest detective", so he ought to be better. though there are others smarter than him, of course)
Regenerative healing factor, (Crud, bats loses, but never mind)
Expert martial artist,(hmm... how much training has Death actually had? how much martial arts can he know? Not much has been said, while we've been shown how Batman was supposed to have had since young? Bats wins)
Skilled armed/unarmed combatant, (same point, so bats wins)
Master tactician and strategist, (Through all the examples shown where Bats more or less diffuses the enemy threat through his plan alone, with help of others, im thinking Bats wins as well)
Access to hi-tech equipment.(Bruce rich boy wins)

conclusion: Bats wins
Deathstroke doesn't have slightly enhanced abilities, he's ten times as strong, fast, and smart as a normal human. He's beaten the crap out of just about every other person in the Bat family. Trust me- Deathstroke is lethal. BATGIRL (who beat Shiva in straight combat) couldn't take him. Batman has no chance.


Val Armorr/Karate Kid(sorry i missed him)
Ok, so hes mastered every martial art in the 30th century, and somehow managed to do some Klenarian muscle lock voodoo magic:smallsmile: thing against superboy. and yet, bats is able to hold him off for such a long time? bats managed to trick him, and will be able to do so again. whether he can actually win with this trickery is too close to call.

note: karate kid has not beaten, or even tied with superboy, barring that muscle lock thingamagig, where even then superboy would have broken out of.

conclusion: Too hard to tell
Val is the undisputed best martial artist in the DCU. If people like Shiva of Bronze Tiger can take Batman, so can he.


Wolvey: Has wolverine been taken down by people without powers before? yes he has. Also, we have to standardize his healing factor first. How much can he heal, and how fast? Lets say he swings a claw at bats. bats ducks, all too experienced with bladed weapons swung at him before, and now has a free swing at wolvey. muscle lock, anyone?
Wolverine is an adept martial artist, but he does not have enough skill. He can and has been knocked out or disabled in marvel before, by various more or less human characters(like capt). Bat wins through experience of Skilled combat, and tactics

conclusion: bat wins
Wolverine is a highly skilled martial artist person, and HE HAS SUPERHUMAN PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES. He's also not afraid to kill or fight dirty. This could go either way, but I favor Logan.


Spidey: Bats has taken punches from superman. dont ask me why he didnt die, but he didnt. so im guessing that considering all the people spidey has punched before, and not died (like scorpion... blah blah random characters)
bats is able to take his punches. As for spider sense, it lets spidey automatically dodge danger as a reflex, rite? so bats can feint a hit here, and whack there, a likely area where he knows spidey should go to, and also there too, another area, just in case.

conclusion: meh. both knock each other out.
Spidy pulls his punches, so if he was (for whatever reason) trying to kill Bats, Bats is dead. He's also a lot tougher then a normal guy, so Batman won't hurt him so much, and you're WAY underestimating his spider-sense. You can empty a machine gun at him at close range, and he won't be hit. Spidy FTW.


GL: why is the most dangerous person kyle considers in the JLA to be batman? that's because he knows that batman knows any weakness he has. thats an important point about batman's strength. he more or less wins anyone with a weakness. however, against hal, yah, bats ought to lose. not against guy though. remember the punch?:smallbiggrin:

conclusion: wins most. bah to hal.
Bats took out Kyle with subliminal messages while he was asleep. No use in a fight. GLs don't have weaknesses anymore, besides running out of charge, and how exactly will Batman last that long in a straight fight? He won't. Any named GL that's not a total rookie will win. Bats has no chance, I'm sorry.


Punisher and Bullseye: To win, both will have to shoot batman with something, before he gets to them. to shoot him, you have to see him first, no? if superman manages to lose sight of him, im quite sure the punisher and bullseye wont know where he is either.

conclusion: bat wins
I don't think Superman can loose sight of Batman, but you make a good point. Either of them would be a good close fight, and a great match, but it would probably be Batman in the end.


Zatanna(and co): Shes scared of bats. you know she is. but ya, its kinda out of his field, unless he knows magic secretly or has some anti magic ring hidden in his belt(cant count that out, can we?)

conclusion: meh. magic wins.
Yes we can. Magic whups Batman's ass.


super powered foes: I had to try :smallbiggrin: but if the guy has a weakness, he loses. and remember how batman managed to plan and get captain atom into darkseid, or something like that, when he fired his omega beams
That was Green Arrow, and he had the Atom ride photons from a light arrow into Darkseid's brain. If the guy has a BIG weakness, Batman wins. But if not, Bats is dead.


human torch: the torch cant fly underwater, can he? or at least, his flames can be put out, right? so bats does that.
Batman would probably win...unless Torch hits him with a nova thingie and BBQs him.


psychics in marvel: with psychic shielding. short of the phoenix, there arent other characters that can overcome "all shields in existence, man made or natural" , right? (i hope) so bats has shields. lots of them
Ok, that's telepathy, but what about telekinesis? You ain't going to stop that, so Batman is out.


road runner, bugs bunny: both require active participation or chasing after them to have unfortunate events happen to the pursuer. batman doesnt do anything, and carries out a staring contest. a rock falls on him. he geets up. repeat till both go away at the end of the show. Bats wins!
LOL! They're loony toons- they survive anything and are perfectly ok a few seconds later. How is Batman supposed to beat that? Besides, like Doompuppy said, the laws of cartoon physics favor the defender.

[EvilJames]

Vs Zatanna: Bats would take her out the same way deathstroke did, she is extremly powerful but only if she can say the words.

Vs Deathstroke: Deathstroke is bats with super powers deathstroke has already beaten Batman

Punisher: Bats has already beaten him up but it would probobly be close if they ever encountered each other again

Spiderman: Another close one Fients have been shown to be effective against spidey, and Batman has experience on him but I think it edges in spidey's favor

Wolverine: Wolverine has experience and some where along the line gained super human strength and agility (don't ask me how or where) So this one depends a lot on how the fight starts if batman knows anything about Wolverine he can possibly improvise am eans to take him out (possibly something like Lobo vs Hitman since Lobo's healing out matches Wolverines, although wolvie does tend to think about consquinces more than Lobo) but If Wolverine just pops into the DCU and they start fighting, Wolverine holds most of the cards but in the end it's still a close fight with Wolvie coming out on top 75% of the time, Batman only wins when He finds something to improvise with and hit Wolvie hard or does some sork of mind game thing with him (since wolvie get hit by those all the time)

Batman fanboys vs Wolverine fanboys would be great fight

Captain America: Same story as Deathstroke but with less assassain and more patriotism

Green Arrow has managed to kinda defeat Batman while under bad guy influence and has defeated deathstroke but those were the results of him being underestimated and/ or (in the case of deathstroke) a years worth of planning So I don't see it happening again.

[nothingclever]

Batman doesn't need time to prepare - he already has. That's the distinction.

As someone noted, he has plans that can nullify any member of the justice league. He had plans to take over Gotham City. Over the years he'd had all the time in the world to work out anti-everybody and anti-everything plans, so should the occasion ever arise he's already prepared.
Only he doesn't have all the time in the world to create a contingency plan for everyone because although I'm definitely no expert on DC they have new characters popping up all the time either through a mystery super serum/magic/mutations/whatever much like Marvel although I guess to a lesser extent. Besides that the topic starter said he was including Marvel which has plenty of characters Batman would and could not know about that could beat him.

Plus saying he is already prepared makes no sense. Where is he carrying all his gadgets then? How does he stop a telepath from crushing his brain instantly or flash smacking him around before he can grab his specialized equipment? He doesn't have a pocket dimension he can magically carry everything around in and pull out whenever he needs to.

Don't even bother arguing if you're just going to say he wins no matter what, it's pointless to make a topic then. The only reason Batman is never caught without the right equipment for a situation or is able to escape is because the writers allows him to even if it doesn't make sense. It really isn't hard to understand.

The logic people are using is like if Batman can fight along side Superman to defeat Darkseid he must be equally powerful or durable. He's not. The only reason he isn't instantly vaporized is because of the writers don't let him.

It's like Captain America being sniped and killed. It could've happened at essentially any time because he had no specific counter against that, the only reason why it didn't happen sooner is because he has plot armor. Daredevil has a real to reason for surviving a sniper attack because he's supposed to be able to both hear and physically sense them greatly in advance since he hear a gun being fired from ridiculous distances as a result of his superhuman senses. Just because Batman doesn't get sniped doesn't mean he has that power too.

[EvilJames]

Actually Batman hasn't been sniped because snipers are hard to use if you don't know where the target is going to be. Since Batman generally trys to keep a low profile (with the exception of a few times in the hands of bad writers). Even if you set a trap for him it's difficult to know where he's going to be. The only reason Cap got sniped was because of the trial since everyone knew exactly when and where Cap would be, the sniper could pick the spot he liked best.

Batman can fight alongside Superman against the likes of Darksied because because he is a genius and prepares for it, Darksied is never a oneshot villain that just randomly comes across Bats, If Batman is actually going to have to deal with someone like that he'll know ahead of time because big guys like him tend to get noticed. Note however that when Batman makes plans for the big guys like Darksied they usually involve the aid of other heroes more Darksied's speed to keep him occupied (In batman/superman when batman went to Apokolips he went with superman and big barda and brought along Mr miricle's tech) Batman even has a plan to deal with Doomsday but it involves evactuating the city and dumping it in the phantom zone, and not trying to fight the monster as to do so would be stupid and get him killed.

people keep talking about how so and so could easily beat bats in a fair fight and most of them are correct, however batman doesn't believe in fair fights and most of the time doesn't involve himself with such things and if super powered monsters are involved then he's not even going to fight them at all.

[sealemon]

Bats vs. Spidey? As much as I like BAts, I really don't see him winning this fight...the only way would be if he were to use multiple traps/threats to overload his spider sense: It's been shown that if Spidy is attacked from many direction at once his Spider sense gives him a disorienting headache.

Then again, the freakin PUNISHER has beaten Spidey before...Maybe BRuce COULD figure something out.

As far as Bats vs. Wolvie, well, if freakin' Daredevil can beat Logan, then so can Batman.

[Ninja Squirrel]

GL: i seem to remember an instance where while facing kyle rayner, bats pushed/shoved him. kyle thought" hes fast.. but" and then the next panel showed bats with his ring. and remember too, that bats has knocked both hal and gardner out. with one punch. GLs have faced many hard enemies in the past, mostly due to the enemy's advanced uber weaponry. so bats takes plenty of gadgets along with him. and didnt he have a gl ring hidden somewhere?

deathstroke: what's the hype about this guy anyway? he's stuck facing the teen titans, not the major heavy hitters. and he can do some stuff. ok, hes a merc, and a good one. wasnt david cain supposed to be the best? and bats can beat david cain. so why cant bats beat deathstroke?

wolverine: didnt carbodanium weaken or nullify his healing factor? then its essentialy bats against an enhanced human expert martial artist with hand claws. bats has more experience fighting that way. how many times has wolverine won against a highly skilled martial artist with as many gadgets you could think of? and bats still has his hypnotism and all other mind trick things to face wolvey with

spidey: seems to be a variety of opinion on what his spider sense actually does. has spidey been beaten before? how does spidey win his enemies?

punisher: hes bats, on a lesser level. recall all the firefights hes been in, and how many times hes gotten shot to show off his manliness in the face of the enmy, with blood dripping all over and stuff. and then remember how bats just swoops in, takes the guys out, without people realising hes there. he took out white martians, i see no reason for him not to have taken out the punisher.

planning: xavier had his xavier protocols, didnt he? i think it was something like how to take care of most mutants in marvel or something. so batman has plans to stop mostly everyone, which may or may not be just himself soloing everyone. he plans in advance, has contingencies, and contingency contingencies. he postulates on what might happen, and takes steps to prevent that. hes only a human, trained to physical and mental perfection, and yet hes the most dangerous person in the JL.

plot armour: people are using plot armour way too much as defense. With the same reasoning, i can also say that the rest of the characters in ocmics should have died against so-and-so, but they didnt because the writers didnt let them.

road runner: he would be subject to their physics if he ever faced them. therefore he cant die.:smallbiggrin:

[EvilJames]

As far as I can tell Deathstroke is only facing the teen Titans because they decided to make him the villain in the teen titans cartoon. However The first time I read anything with him in it was in Nightwing where nightwing was trying to protect someone from him and in this comic they mentioned that nightwing couldn't beat him because batman couldn't beat him. He was also a major player in the Infinite Crisis. The Society used him as their ultimate hitman. He killed some minor villans who were stupid enough to refuse an invitation (alas poor Kiteman)
He also took on GA, Zatanna, Hawkman, Elongatedman. Black canary, the flash and Green Lantern (kyle) all at once in Identity Crisis.
He lost eventually but it was an awesome fight
Edit: I agree that people are over using the plot armor defense no character in comics can do anything unless the writer says so, so saying he can only do something because "the writer says so" is silly and not really relavent to what we are talking about.

[Meshakhad]

Robin. He has Batman's trust, and access to Batman's lair & gadgets. It would be easy for him to lay some sort of booby trap to catch Batman.

[Dalenthas]

Iron Man.

Tony Stark has all of Bruce's brains, gadgets, and money, plus a suit of frakking armor. Batman wouldn't even scratch the paint on the Iron Man armor. Add in the recent Extremis powers and IM kicks Batmans ass even harder, taking remote controll of the Batmobile and driving it into a wall.

[Moogle0119]

GL: i seem to remember an instance where while facing kyle rayner, bats pushed/shoved him. kyle thought" hes fast.. but" and then the next panel showed bats with his ring. and remember too, that bats has knocked both hal and gardner out. with one punch. GLs have faced many hard enemies in the past, mostly due to the enemy's advanced uber weaponry. so bats takes plenty of gadgets along with him. and didnt he have a gl ring hidden somewhere?
In a straight up fight though I doubt Batman would have the element of surprise you keep giving him. Batman DOES fight on his terms and his terms usually do equate to getting the jump on his foe or dictating the circumstances and the area in which the fight takes place. If any GL is ready to take on Bats and knows he's on the other side of the room that's pretty much going to be it.

deathstroke: what's the hype about this guy anyway? he's stuck facing the teen titans, not the major heavy hitters. and he can do some stuff. ok, hes a merc, and a good one. wasnt david cain supposed to be the best? and bats can beat david cain. so why cant bats beat deathstroke?
I honestly don't know enough about Deathstroke so no comment.

wolverine: didnt carbodanium weaken or nullify his healing factor? then its essentialy bats against an enhanced human expert martial artist with hand claws. bats has more experience fighting that way. how many times has wolverine won against a highly skilled martial artist with as many gadgets you could think of? and bats still has his hypnotism and all other mind trick things to face wolvey with
Not to sound like a Wolverine fanboy, but I seriously doubt Batman could take out Wolverine without preparation. Wolverine's Adamantium skeleton is virtually unbreakable. Even with the adamantium skeleton, his healing factor is still very good (not considering recent events where he was melted to the bones and regenerated within an hour). Even if Batman gets a few good punches, stabs, etc. in it's not going to make much of a difference in the long run. Wolverine is a tough guy to put down and if he's going up against someone who has strong HUMAN powers it's only going to be a matter of time before Wolverine stabs him with the claws. Batman will also tire faster than Wolverine would. I personally like Batman much more, but in a straight up fight there is little doubt that Wolverine would win.

spidey: seems to be a variety of opinion on what his spider sense actually does. has spidey been beaten before? how does spidey win his enemies?
It really seems like you don't know much about Spider-man. Prior to the "The Other" storyline Spider-man could lift up to 10 tons (I would say normally probably 2-3 tons in normal circumstances). His reflexes were roughly 30 times faster than a normal human's. Plus his Spider-sense gives him a fairly good warning about oncoming attacks. It even works against attacks or threats he isn't currently aware of (I remember reading once that his spider-sense would work even if he was asleep). After "The Other" storyline all these powers just increased and he gained others as well. Spider-man almost always pulls his punches to prevent from actually killing regular thugs. Superman does the same thing (this is why Batman was able to take a hit from Superman, otherwise Superman should have cleanly beheaded Batman if he wanted to).

Spider-man vs Batman in a straight up fight with no planning goes to Spider-man. Batman may be trained in dozens of martial arts styles, but when your enemy is so damned agile and reflexive that you can't land a hit it's not going to matter much.

punisher: hes bats, on a lesser level. recall all the firefights hes been in, and how many times hes gotten shot to show off his manliness in the face of the enmy, with blood dripping all over and stuff. and then remember how bats just swoops in, takes the guys out, without people realising hes there. he took out white martians, i see no reason for him not to have taken out the punisher.
Does Punisher have guns in a straight up fight? If so that gives him a really unfair advantage even with kevlar armor. This fight I could see going either way depending on where the fight took place (again Batman doesn't necessarily pick the place himself otherwise that's part of his planning). If it's a well lit sealed off room with a lot of space between them I don't see why Punisher wouldn't just shoot away at Batman until he saw the floor lined with blood. However if they both ended up in a place unexpectedly that had lots of shadows and close-quarters it could be a good match.

A lot of it depends on if Batman can take a few days to make some sort of Bat-"Beat my Enemy" Spray. However if he just runs into an enemy who happens to be from a completely different comic universe he can't have that preparation time obviously.

[GoC]

Some people are saying "Since Batman beat so-and-so he can do it again" or "Since Batman beat Joe and Joe beat Bob thus Batman can beat Bob"
This argument isn't true in the world of comic books were everyone has beaten some high powered being to prove their power.
Example:
Half the Marvel universe has beaten Thanos but this doesn't mean that they could do so again.

In the comic were Bats beat Superman did the latter use his superspeed?

[EvilJames]

To be honest if batman doesn't have kryptonite on him and ready then batman can't beat supes, if he does, then most if not all of supes's powers are pretty much nullified

[Finn Solomon]

In Does Punisher have guns in a straight up fight?

The Punisher has guns in places most people don't even have places. He probably wears a gun in the shower, or he won't feel right.

C'mon, he's the Punisher. Charlton Heston thinks the Punisher is a little weird about his guns. Taking away his guns is like taking away Batman's utility belt. It's like taking away Spidey's web-shooters. It isn't fair to Frank.

[sealemon]

deathstroke: what's the hype about this guy anyway? he's stuck facing the teen titans, not the major heavy hitters. and he can do some stuff. ok, hes a merc, and a good one. wasnt david cain supposed to be the best? and bats can beat david cain. so why cant bats beat deathstroke?

He was a Titans villian because they inadvertantly killed his son, The Ravager. He tangled with thme numerous times, proving that he could solo the entire team and still get hits in. He used a very simular Tower Of Babel plan to take out all of the Titans...laying traps for them that preyed on their weakness.

And he's already fought Batman, and kicked his butt.

[TheEmerged]

To be honest if batman doesn't have kryptonite on him and ready then batman can't beat supes, if he does, then most if not all of supes's powers are pretty much nullified

And even if Batman has the Kryptonite, he has to hope Superman has conveniently forgotten that he has sufficient superspeed to move faster than Batman's senses, a powerful ranged attack with greater range than the Kryptonite, and sufficient senses to spot Batman at greater range than the Kryptonite, and sufficient superspeed to use those senses.

All the preperation in the world isn't going to help you when your enemy has guaranteed first strike capability, from greater range than you can respond, and the ability to take you out in one hit without mutually assured destruction.


The Punisher has guns in places most people don't even have places. He probably wears a gun in the shower, or he won't feel right. C'mon, he's the Punisher. Charlton Heston thinks the Punisher is a little weird about his guns.

HA! Good one.

[Cywar]

hmm, everyones assuming the Bat has no Superpowers. Thats wrong. He is incredibly strong. He carries a belt with stuff that prepares him for every situation. He has even a Bat-Missile-Defense Gadget...on his Belt. Everyone not believing me... check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW8UR81Us54

incredibly funny... hilarious

He is Batman...
He carries stuff on his belt...
Thats what he does
He is Batman...

[EvilJames]

Superman has a tendancy to announce his presence in some way, which normally gives his enemies at least a fraction of time to enact some sort of countermeasure. The few times Supes has beaten bats is when the turn from good guy to bad guy is so sudden that not even superman knows what happened. ie. Maxwell Lords taking control and making him attack batman.

[GuesssWho]

This is my official opinion on Batman:
He's way too lame and dull to have such cool villains.

[Boris_the_Fat]

Squirrel Girl could beat Batman.

She can beat anyone.

My cat beats squirrels. So i guess CatWoman could defeat Squirrel Girl.

[Nevrmore]

My cat beats squirrels. So i guess CatWoman could defeat Squirrel Girl.
You don't understand Squirrel Girl at all.

[Hushdawg]

hmm, everyones assuming the Bat has no Superpowers. Thats wrong. He is incredibly strong. He carries a belt with stuff that prepares him for every situation. He has even a Bat-Missile-Defense Gadget...on his Belt. Everyone not believing me... check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW8UR81Us54

incredibly funny... hilarious

He is Batman...
He carries stuff on his belt...
Thats what he does
He is Batman...


He even has a Bat-Female-Villain-Repellant Spray in his utility belt.

no, really....

I'm serious...

he's used it...

he's the goddamn Batman.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Superman has a tendancy to announce his presence in some way, which normally gives his enemies at least a fraction of time to enact some sort of countermeasure. The few times Supes has beaten bats is when the turn from good guy to bad guy is so sudden that not even superman knows what happened. ie. Maxwell Lords taking control and making him attack batman.

doesn't matter. I've seen only one time Batman has really beat the snot out of Superman- and that was in an Elseworlds story (Superman: Red Son) where they had never met before. Bats caught him under red sun lamps. In DKR, Superman was much-weakened and the fight was still even.

The best modern example I can think of was the fight in the Hush story-arc. Batman had a prepared battlefield, his kryptonite ring, yadda yadda yadda...and he still knew he couldn't do more then delay.

Ninjasquirrel: Batman beat Gardner with 'one punch' because it was a no-ring BOXING MATCH. I've also seen Hal deck Batman with one punch. There's no way Batman could get the ring off if someone like Hal or Kyle played smart and kept their force-field up and kept their hand in a fist, not open. Batman's not THAT fast. And Green Arrow was 'too cynical' to use a ring, then what does that make Batman? Completely unable to.

Also, remember this is Batman, not the silver-age Mr. Fantastic. Marvel's psudo-science is a WHOLE lot worse then Batman's.