Marketing of 5e

[TripleD]

Open question: Do you think Hasbro is doing a good job of actually reaching out to new, particularly younger, players with the new edition?

I was babysitting my 8 year old cousin the other night. He's a huge fan of Risk, and I've been introducing him to Catan, Agricola, etc. I had my iPad with me and was showing him some digital board games, when on a whim I decided to show him an RPG mapmaking app I had. He got really excited, so I googled some pictures from the 5e PHB. He asked if he could get it or if it was "too scary". I told him I'd bring it over next time so he could judge.

Next day I was birthday shopping for a different cousin at Walmart. After pinpointing the exact Thomas the Tank Engine toy required, I wandered around that section before I stumbled upon a display rack practically overflowing with Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Magic: The Gathering. After a brief moment of jealousy (Walmart didn't stock MTG when I was a kid) I thought, why isn't there a 5e Starter Set here?

And not just Walmart, but Toys R Us, or anywhere in a bookstore outside of that "Gaming" section way at the back. Game stores are great, but they aren't always convenient to get to, they may not exist in medium sized towns, and they're rarely in a position to catch the eye of kids who grow up outside the geeky fold.

I realize that an 8 year old probably isn't going to be DM-ing on his own, but 10, 11, and 12 year olds can certainly take a crack at pre-built modules (maybe with a bit of adult assistance).

And it's not just kids. In my day to day life it's surprising how many people, upon realizing how much of a nerd I am, have asked me what D&D is exactly, as they've never come across a tangible copy of the game in their day to day life. There are definitely people out there who are interested, but aren't sure where, exactly to go to find out more.

I can only judge for my own town and life experience. To the players across the globe, have you also noticed a "preaching-to-the-choir" marketing mentality in your area, or am I wildly over thinking this?

[Elderand]

You think that's bad ? It's near impossible to find even specialised stores in my country.

[golentan]

Part of it is that outreach often gets stomped on by stereotypes and people who for various reasons view the hobby as dangerous.

I have noticed that most new players know old players.

[TripleD]

You think that's bad ? It's near impossible to find even specialised stores in my country.

I feel your pain. I'm from a rural Canadian village of about 600 people. I was lucky enough to be within an hour's drive of a medium sized city whose sports-memorabilia store also carried pokemon and yu-gi-oh cards. If I lived any further out I'd be SOL.

Which is kind of what spurned my original post. Wasn't one of the benefits of being bought out by a large corporation (Hasbro) that we'd have to worry less about distribution?



I have noticed that most new players know old players

I don't know anyone outside of 2e who wasn't introduced to the game like that.

D&D is, in most ways, much closer to a sport than a board game in terms of how it spreads. Most people are taught the game by more experienced players, and introduce house rules to cater the game to the size and experience of the group. Because the equipment is ubiquitous, it's easy for people to join in this way.

Now I'm not so naive as to think D&D will ever become as widespread as baseball, soccer, or even lacrosse, but if the product's not out there then people won't find it. It can't cost that much more for Hasbro to make a Starter Set than say, Battleship.

[Grynning]

Even though Hasbro owns Wizards of the Coast, WotC is still largely autonomous and makes most decisions on their own with a rubber stamp approval from the top. The whole reason Hasbro even bought the company in the first place was just because printing Pokemon and MtG cards was basically better than printing money, and as long as MtG continues to have the success it does (and as a game store owner, I can tell you that it is without a doubt still the most profitable product a game store can sell), Hasbro will probably let WotC do what it wants with D&D.

WotC has decided to try and market 5E as a niche product again, rather than as a mass market product like they tried to do with 4E. They are being very supportive of small stores, which I for one appreciate, and are also trying to regain their position as a brand leader in the RPG market. The way to do that is to make sure the product appeals to their core audience and let it grow organically - which is what made 3rd ed such a success.

[strangeramongus]

Something I've considered trying is running a game at a local library for kids/teens. I'd love to introduce more people to the game. The 5e Starter Set also isn't so expensive that I couldn't donate one or two to libraries near me. I've heard that there's a gaming store not too far away from me that does something similar for their local high school.

[archaeo]

I think it's entirely possible that WotC is holding off on the mass market until it actually has a complete product to sell. This staggered release is fine for hobbyists; it gets us continually talking about what's new, etc., and we can be expected to be early-adopting rubes who spend the big bucks on fancy hardbacks.

Also, DungeonScape is going to be sitting on the virtual shelf space burning a hole in lots and lots of kids' pockets. Not everyone has access to a gaming store, but the Internet is a different beast.

[Feldarove]

I think Grynning said it all best. WOTC seems to be heading in a direction they want, and are not concerned about marketing to a broad base.

If you play D&D and live in a small/medium, remote kind of town, you are probably going to use any resources to obtain the product (ex: amazon).

I was introduced to D&D by people who introduced me to Vampire: The Masquerade...and it was all pretty random. Reflecting on this, I struggle to think of any of my hobbies/interest that weren't introduced to me by someone. Most of my friends turned me on to the video games I play (mostly Diablo and WoW), my father got me into Pro Wrestling (WWE), and the big kids in my neighborhood got me into sports.

I think games (board, card, etc0 in general these days aren't really marketed. I guess I don't watch a lot of kid programming on TV, but when was the last time you saw an add for any Hasbro board game?

Also, imho, I think D&D is a game best introduced by someone who has played it. I can't imagine buying the starter set and having any idea what the heck is going on...

[BW022]

Not really.

IMO, WotC learned a key lesson in releasing and marketing 4E... you won't get substantial numbers of new players without moving existing players to your system. D&D is a social game requiring a good DM to even play the game. You can buy all the books you want, but unless an existing DM is willing to run the game for them, you can't play D&D -- or at least without months or years of learning.

I often wonder how many children today have the patience to learn a game in they way I did when I was 12. How many months did it take before I could even DM even to even get someone through Keep on the Borderlands? Marketing to younger children or "video gamers" is utterly pointless no matter how simplistic your RPG system is. If an 8 year-old, or WoW player won't play a game which requires two hours to make up a character... they certainly aren't going to put the years of time into learning to DM.

Thus, the only way any D&D game works for new players is if you have an experience DM willing to introduce them to the game and give them a good time. This means you need to convince existing DMs to move to your new system and you are ultimately limited by the ability for new players to find a group willing to play your system. If you walk into a gaming store in my city... chances are you will be learning Pathfinder since those are the D&D games running... a few 4E and some old 3.x.

Maybe with 4E and D&D online with a virtual battlemap system, WotC could get new players online and playing with a real DM. That didn't pan out. Thus, you are still limited by your ability for new players to find DMs. This means you can't mass market it to new players beyond their ability to find existing groups/DMs willing to run them -- in that system. This means, you must get existing DMs running games in 5E. The RPGA, local gaming stores, conventions, etc. As long as 30% of DMs run 4E, 30% Pathfinder, and 30% 3.x, any new player is 90% likely to be introduced to something other than 5E.

The box sets, free quickplay rules, etc. is good marketing as is making the PHB more setting neutral. However, naming it just "Dungeons and Dragons" is a terrible idea. 4E books don't have a version number than this creates a lot of confusion. The WotC web site isn't great either. Really hard to find 5E specific things. I've seen folks asking whether X or Y module was 5E.

[cobaltstarfire]

I often wonder how many children today have the patience to learn a game in they way I did when I was 12. How many months did it take before I could even DM even to even get someone through Keep on the Borderlands? Marketing to younger children or "video gamers" is utterly pointless no matter how simplistic your RPG system is. If an 8 year-old, or WoW player won't play a game which requires two hours to make up a character... they certainly aren't going to put the years of time into learning to DM.

You really outta give kids a little more credit here, many children will put their heart and soul into something if they really want to learn it, particularly those in the 8-12 range.

I think if Wizards were to release that box set (with the pre-gens and stuff) to toy stores and things they'll draw in some kids who are curious, and they will learn to play, even if it's hack and slash. Although that seems like it'd be better to wait until all of the core books are out, that way if the kids really like the box set and want more, they will be able to get their hands on it rather than having to wait.

It may also catch the eyes of some parents that used to play but haven't in a long time, and they might decide to start up again with their kids. Lots of children get started through their parents, if not friends.

[TripleD]

You really outta give kids a little more credit here, many children will put their heart and soul into something if they really want to learn it, particularly those in the 8-12 range.

See that's what inspired my original post. The cousin I was talking about was only seven when he picked up Risk and Catan. Granted, they aren't especially difficult rule sets, but I was impressed as how quickly he grasped resource management and bargaining.

As an educator, I really think people make too much out of the "ADD Generation". Kids (12 and under) have about as much patience as they've always had. My cousin's three year old may have every electronic toy under the sun, but at the end of the day his favorite activity, by far, is throwing rocks into a ditch.

[Zweisteine]

Even though Hasbro owns Wizards of the Coast, WotC is still largely autonomous and makes most decisions on their own with a rubber stamp approval from the top. The whole reason Hasbro even bought the company in the first place was just because printing Pokemon and MtG cards was basically better than printing money, and as long as MtG continues to have the success it does (and as a game store owner, I can tell you that it is without a doubt still the most profitable product a game store can sell), Hasbro will probably let WotC do what it wants with D&D.
I haven't heard that before, but I suppose it makes sense. I hope it stays that way, too.


WotC has decided to try and market 5E as a niche product again, rather than as a mass market product like they tried to do with 4E. They are being very supportive of small stores, which I for one appreciate, and are also trying to regain their position as a brand leader in the RPG market. The way to do that is to make sure the product appeals to their core audience and let it grow organically - which is what made 3rd ed such a success.
And now they are trying to cater simultaneously to the old fans of 3.5e and newer players, but making a game like 3.5e, but simpler. This lets it spread more easily than the older editions, and it draws back many customers that had stopped buying products in 4e.

[Beleriphon]

Another thing to remember is that the rights to a licensed D&D video game, or t-shirts, ultimately are more valuable than the game itself. It is too no small degree why Disney makes so much damn money, it isn't for the most part of the parks or the movies they produce. The money is from all of the ancilliary stuff they sell, and the licensing fees they collect.

[Vowtz]

I started with "first quest" in mid 90's, It came with dices, miniatures, Audio CD and six pregenerated and nicely ilustrated character sheets.

The "Livro dos monstros e Tesouros" that came with it had me fascinated for years. Only later I would discover "true" Ad&d.

Maybe that's what is lacking nowadays, you gotta sell a game for children that's something between d&d and hero quest.

[Beleriphon]

I started with "first quest" in mid 90's, It came with dices, miniatures, Audio CD and six pregenerated and nicely ilustrated character sheets.

The "Livro dos monstros e Tesouros" that came with it had me fascinated for years. Only later I would discover "true" Ad&d.

Maybe that's what is lacking nowadays, you gotta sell a game for children that's something between d&d and hero quest.

The Start Set isn't bad for that. It has a pretty fun little adventure in it, five pregen characters that only missing names. The adventure has some some escalating GM Advice for specific scenarios that progressively add more rules as well generic advice along the lines of be consistent when describing a character, don't be afraid to ham it up to make things memorable, etc.

[Steel Mirror]

I don't know anyone outside of 2e who wasn't introduced to the game like that.
Not that I am a typical case, but my intro to D&D was buying the 3E PHB the week it came out with money I got for my 14th birthday. My brother and I played with it for a few weeks, just having fun fighting monsters with randomly rolled level 1 characters, and enjoying the funnily shaped dice. Then, we eventually got a bunch of our friends (also all complete RPG newbies) and started playing together. The rest is history.

So I'm a big supporter of the starter products, and trying to provide a ramp from simple to more complex play, and I think the current version does a great job of providing a climbing-on point for youngsters whose heads are turned by some cool pictures, funky dice, and the freedom to craft their own ultimate sandbox experience.