Divinely Morphic: What does it mean and how can it be used?

[Phelix-Mu]

The title pretty much covers the premise. I want to know what/where rules cover what this planar trait does or does not allow to happen. I like sources and quotes whenever possible, for clarity, but they aren't strictly necessary (as I understand a fair portion of us are mobile users).

In particular, it has always seemed to me that if you can't lure a deity away from their planar domain, that this trait (divinely morphic) represents a final and fairly omnipresent trump card that deities could use. Unless I am fatally misunderstanding how it works; enlighten me either way.

Thanks.

[Jeff the Green]

I assume you know the SRD description?


Morphic Traits
This trait measures how easily the basic nature of a plane can be changed. Some planes are responsive to sentient thought, while others can be manipulated only by extremely powerful creatures. And some planes respond to physical or magical efforts.

Divinely Morphic
Specific unique beings (deities or similar great powers) have the ability to alter objects, creatures, and the landscape on planes with this trait. Ordinary characters find these planes similar to alterable planes in that they may be affected by spells and physical effort. But the deities may cause these areas to change instantly and dramatically, creating great kingdoms for themselves.

But yes, it does seem to be a fairly effective trump card. By my reading the appropriate being could suck all oxygen from an area while altering the physiology of the plane's native denizens to let them breathe pure nitrogen, cause water to suddenly and intrinsically have a pH of 1, or change the properties of air so that when disturbed by a nonnative being it suddenly coalesces into bees.

Probably, in order to get to such a recalcitrant being one would need a more powerful deity, a coalition of deities, or a way to change the morphicity of the plane, and even these may involve great cost.

On the other hand, a being who isn't willing to leave his plane for any reason loses a substantial amount of power. One can mess with his servants with relative impunity and destroy his thousand-year old plans without having to worry about him kicking you in the head.

[Red Fel]

Well, let's see what Manual of the Planes has to say:
Specific, unique beings (deities or similar great powers) have the ability to alter objects, creatures, and the landscape on these planes. Ordinary characters find these planes similar to alterable planes in that they may be affected by spells and physical effort. But the deities may cause these areas to change instantly and dramatically, creating great kingdoms for themselves. Divinely morphic planes are common on the Outer Planes, which is one reason deities live there.

So let's break it down.


Specific, unique beings (deities or similar great powers) have the ability to alter objects, creatures, and the landscape on these planes.
In other words, a plane with the Divinely Morphic trait can be altered by major powers. These alterations can include "objects, creatures, and the landscape[.]"


Ordinary characters find these planes similar to alterable planes in that they may be affected by spells and physical effort.
In a prior section, the book describes Alterable Morphic, Highly Morphic, and Magically Morphic planes as types of planes that can be altered through spells, physical force, or force of will. Thus, a Divinely Morphic plane, like one of these others, can be altered by mortal characters and other non-major powers.


But the deities may cause these areas to change instantly and dramatically, creating great kingdoms for themselves.
This is the key. An ordinary character can alter a Divinely Morphic plane through some force. A major power can alter a Divinely Morphic plane on a whim. And I remind you that, as expressed above, altering the plane can include altering the objects, creatures, and landscape therein. Are you on the plane with that deity? Congratulations, you're hosed.

On a review of the text, I don't see much other reference to how, precisely, one alters a morphic plane, other than general reference to spells, physical force, and force of will. But the implication of the text is that a Divinely Morphic plane responds instantaneously to the will of a deity or major power, in broad, sweeping ways.

Does this help?

[Jeff the Green]

In other words, a plane with the Divinely Morphic trait can be altered by major powers. These alterations can include "objects, creatures, and the landscape[.]"

It's worse than that. See the basic description of Morphic traits? At least to my reading, it implies that divinely Morphic planes can have their basic nature changed? That opens up changing the laws of physics, as I mentioned above.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yes, the responses so far do help. I, to be clear, know of both these entries outlined so far by the helpful posters, and just wanted any known expansions on those basic outlines, as the definition of Divinely Morphic itself is vague in the extreme.

I believe the implication is, as Red Fel says, that finding oneself on such a plane with a deity that has the ability (and perhaps the tacit permission of other deities therein) to alter the plane on a whim is pretty much a game-ender for anyone with hostile intent.

@Jeff the Green: I believe any deity with enough tout to have their own domain probably can also make avatars, or at least aspects, which can go about and do the nittiest of the gritty that needs to be done. I don't know the specific guidelines from Deities and Demigods about avatars, but I recall that the more powerful gods can control numerous of them at once (at least in previous editions).

EDIT: Yeah, it seems to encompass pretty much every bad effect I can think of. Even if a deity can't kill an attacking, let's say extremely well-prepared wizard, they should at least be able to counter most, if not all, of such a wizards attack and/or escape vectors.

Question: Are the other planar traits up for altering? Could the deity lock the attacker in a small sphere of extremely fast (or extremely slow) time? Or, just to screw around, place a layer of extremely slow time between the deity and the wizard? Hehe. Yeah, why does anyone try to kill a god again?

[Jeff the Green]

@Jeff the Green: I believe any deity with enough tout to have their own domain probably can also make avatars, or at least aspects, which can go about and do the nittiest of the gritty that needs to be done. I don't know the specific guidelines from Deities and Demigods about avatars, but I recall that the more powerful gods can control numerous of them at once (at least in previous editions).

This is true. However, avatars are far easier to kill than a god. If you expect to be able to kill him when you lure him out, you can take several avatars on at a time.

[Phelix-Mu]

This is true. However, avatars are far easier to kill than a god. If you expect to be able to kill him when you lure him out, you can take several avatars on at a time.

How much easier than the real thing is an avatar? I know aspects are a good step down (a very big step), but avatars are still pretty strong, I thought.

Please correct me, though.

[Red Fel]

Question: Are the other planar traits up for altering? Could the deity lock the attacker in a small sphere of extremely fast (or extremely slow) time? Or, just to screw around, place a layer of extremely slow time between the deity and the wizard? Hehe. Yeah, why does anyone try to kill a god again?

That's not as clear, but my instinct is to say no. Things like time-flow and gravity are part of the inherent nature of a plane. By RAW, Morphic traits refer to altering the plane physically, in terms of creatures, objects and landscape. Time passage and gravity are described in a separate planar trait entry. Being able to alter the landscape and such is akin to having user-level access; being able to alter the underlying concepts of time and the like would probably require the equivalent of root access.

Note that this may not hold true in Divine Realms, which are basically tiny bubbles of divine power within a given plane. There's even less detail about them, but it's certainly possible that even these fundamental rules could be altered in such a place.

You know what we need? We need an expert. Afro, Afro, Afro!

... it works for that bugjuice guy...


How much easier than the real thing is an avatar? I know aspects are a good step down (a very big step), but avatars are still pretty strong, I thought.

Please correct me, though.

Well, here's an example. According to Deities and Demigods, Boccob is a Divine Rank 17 Wizard 20/ Cleric 20. He's a level 40 Greater Deity with an outrageous arsenal of powers. He has basically all of the Salient Divine Abilities (I won't bother to list them, the block is massive), has basically every metamagic feat, can cast Wizard spells spontaneously, and has a ton of SLAs he casts at wither CL 27 or 28.

Also according to that entry, Boccob can have up to 20 avatars at once. Each is statted as Boccob, but has Divine Rank 8, a much smaller divine aura, far fewer Salient Divine Abilities, and his SLAs are CL 18.

To use an Intermediate Deity, there's Kord, a Divine Rank 14 Fighter 20/ Barbarian 20. Ton of feats, but far fewer Salient Divine Abilities. His CL for SLAs is 24. His avatar is statted as he is, but has Divine Rank 7, slightly lower AC, fewer Salient Divine Abilities, and the CL on his SLAs is 17.

Basically, an avatar is a mini-god with fewer divine abilities and on a lesser scale. For example, I don't see any avatars with the Alter Reality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterReality) Salient Divine Ability, even when the actual god has them. However, they retain (for the most part) the god's chassis, including class levels, so you're still looking at a super-epic encounter.

EDIT: As an aside, we really should look at the Alter Reality Salient Divine Ability, which I think is highly relevant to this discussion. It reads, in relevant part:
This ability is similar to the wish spell. The deity merely thinks of something and then makes it so. Doing this requires at least a standard action.

. . .

The deity can create temporary, nonmagical objects. This works like the Create Object ability (including the required rest period), except that the items last one day per rank.

The deity also can create permanent nonmagical objects as if using the Create Object ability except that all rest requirements are doubled and there is no reduction in rest time for being on an Outer Plane or in the deity’s own realm.

The deity can create temporary magic items or creatures. This works like the Divine Creation ability (including the required rest period), except that the items or creatures created last 1 hour per rank. This ability cannot create permanent magic items or creatures.

The deity can reshape a landscape, creating any type of terrain the deity can imagine. Each 10-foot cube of material to be reshaped requires 1 round of effort, and the deity must rest for one day per 10-foot cube shaped after the work is completed.
This might be the force of will that the Divinely Morphic trait describes - a standard action that creates or alters things.

[Jeff the Green]

I was thinking of aspects, actually, but it applies to avatars as well, if to a lesser degree.

The avatar’s divine rank is half that of the deity (round down).

This drastically cuts down on the salient divine abilities available to the avatar, and reduces their stats by a fair amount. They're also not trivial to produce, taking a full year to grow, and impossible to stockpile. Plus not every deity can have one.

[Phelix-Mu]

Basically, an avatar is a mini-god with fewer divine abilities and on a lesser scale. For example, I don't see any avatars with the Alter Reality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterReality) Salient Divine Ability, even when the actual god has them. However, they retain (for the most part) the god's chassis, including class levels, so you're still looking at a super-epic encounter.

So, as I had intended to imply, avatars are more than capable of the proverbial taking out of trash that couldn't be accomplished by mortal churches, celestial servants, heavenly exemplars, aspects, or some combination thereof. Yes, anything that can school most of what has been printed and which has DvR over 0 and some DSAs can pose a threat to even a decently op'd assailant. Especially if several avatars can pool their abilities.

There used to be rules about how many avatars could exist on the same plane at the same time. Is anything of the kind still extant these days?

As far as my personal position on the op-levels of gods, if the campaign gives rise to characters with huge optimization, then the gods are better, because that is what it means to be a god. Gods are above what mortals are capable of, because that, to me, is what god means. Thus, a god can psy reform or rebuild itself to meet challenges; it's possible for mortals, so I don't think gods are carved in stone either.

[Leviting]

Well, here's an example. According to Deities and Demigods, Boccob is a Divine Rank 17 Wizard 20/ Cleric 20. He's a level 40 Greater Deity with an outrageous arsenal of powers. He has basically all of the Salient Divine Abilities (I won't bother to list them, the block is massive), has basically every metamagic feat, can cast Wizard spells spontaneously, and has a ton of SLAs he casts at wither CL 27 or 28.

Also according to that entry, Boccob can have up to 20 avatars at once. Each is statted as Boccob, but has Divine Rank 8, a much smaller divine aura, far fewer Salient Divine Abilities, and his SLAs are CL 18.....

So, in other words, Boccob is not simply a level 40 wizard/cleric, he is 21 wizard 20/cleric 20s. Plus salient divine abilities. Why is he even worth statting, again?

[Phelix-Mu]

So, in other words, Boccob is not simply a level 40 wizard/cleric, he is 21 wizard 20/cleric 20s. Plus salient divine abilities. Why is he even worth statting, again?

TO being what it is, I still typically err on the side of "why are you even trying?" in the inevitable issue of deicide threads. The RAW allows some crazy exploits, but the gods still have some decent octane in their tank. More if played to their full potential, and if they aren't, then it starts to feel like the DM is batting on the side of the characters/would-be godslayers.

Personally, from a setting-design perspective, godslaying is distasteful, if not strictly impossible. It should be rare in the extreme, and usually the result of pantheon infighting/interfighting, not random Vecna-blooded wizards wielding NI spell traps from fast time demiplanes.

But that is neither here nor there. Even if time traits and such are off limits, the god can still just light the air on fire, or surround the assailant with 100 yards of voidstone on all sides. Or drop a mountain on them. Or make their arms disappear.

[Extra Anchovies]

But that is neither here nor there. Even if time traits and such are off limits, the god can still just light the air on fire, or surround the assailant with 100 yards of voidstone on all sides. Or drop a mountain on them. Or make their arms disappear.

The real question is, would that last action count as a disarm, or a sunder?

[Phelix-Mu]

The real question is, would that last action count as a disarm, or a sunder?

"Disarm" action qualifies the deity in question for my bonus xp award for hilarious jokes made during session.

(Except npcs don't get any real benefit from xp...*sadface*.)

[Sith_Happens]

Manual of the Planes page 88, section "Deities and Divinely Morphic Planes" seems relevant to this discussion.:smallwink:

[afroakuma]

You know what we need? We need an expert. Afro, Afro, Afro!

Who summons Fro?

Ah, you summon Fro. Very good. Let's see here.

Divinely morphic is actually rather more limited as a power than the gods would like; while gods of Lesser rank and above can indeed make alterations to their realm, the nature of those alterations isn't as tremendous as one would hope and it is not, generally speaking, fast.

• Demigods can make adjustments to the temperature and "minor elements" of their realm (100 ft./rank) including smells and ambient sounds. It would be a reasonable extrapolation to suggest that other cantrip-level effects are within the demigod's power to employ (lighting, flavors, general cleanliness, etc.)

• Lesser deities can only alter planar connections within their realm (1 mile). They can shape these such that certain areas function as portals while others are cut off entirely.

• Intermediate deities can erect buildings and alter the terrain to any kind found on the Prime within the scope of their realm (10 miles). They can also enhance and impede magic in their realm.

• Greater deities, with "time-consuming" effort involving a lot of their power, can also apply elemental traits, time traits and gravity traits to their realm (100 miles) and can limit magic other than their own. These abilities are not quick.

A deity can alter basic environmental conditions (temperature, humidity, ambient sounds, any of the demigod-level stuff) as a standard action, though the change takes about 10 minutes. For those who can erect buildings, change planar traits and/or the terrain, doing so requires 8 hours of effort per day for a year and a day. There's no limit to how much they can get done in that time, but the changes won't set in unless a year and a day of work has gone into them.

Some deities can also directly alter reality, but it's a comparatively inefficient way to accomplish a task unless it could be done with a spell of 9th level or lower. Directly altering terrain requires 1 round of effort and 1 day of rest per 10 ft. cube. Not practical. More efficient is their capacity to create objects, which is vastly extended in their own realm and would allow over the course of a few rounds the creation of a house or large hall.

Personally I dislike those rules, finding them limiting and stupid indeed, but officially that's how it works.

[Chronos]

Another question would be with the Genesis spell. Can you use it to give your new plane the divinely-morphic trait, and if so, would you be the "...or other powerful unique being" who controls it?

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
Personally I dislike those rules, finding them limiting and stupid indeed, but officially that's how it works.

Do you prefer to completely do away with rules when it comes to deities altering their divine realms? As in, they can pretty much do whatever they want within its confines?

[Phelix-Mu]

Do you prefer to completely do away with rules when it comes to deities altering their divine realms? As in, they can pretty much do whatever they want within its confines?

I'm probably going to do away with that stuff, cause a well-optimized high-tier caster with unlimited wealth (redundant, I know) could accomplish that same stuff on a similar scope on the Prime, but faster and with likely less effort. The whole idea that it takes a god significant time to do and recuperate from this stuff is a bit bizarre. I know gods resting is not exactly unheard of (tee hee), but it certainly is an unnecessary thing in the grand scope of what the rules make possible in D&D.

I mean, I don't want every demigod to have to invest in lyre of building, for goodness sakes. Now that strains suspension of disbelief.

[afroakuma]

The whole idea that it takes a god significant time to do and recuperate from this stuff is a bit bizarre.

You spelled "stupid" wrong there.

In general the god rules are inane. It wouldn't be hard to devise better ones.

[123456789blaaa]

I'm probably going to do away with that stuff, cause a well-optimized high-tier caster with unlimited wealth (redundant, I know) could accomplish that same stuff on a similar scope on the Prime, but faster and with likely less effort. The whole idea that it takes a god significant time to do and recuperate from this stuff is a bit bizarre. I know gods resting is not exactly unheard of (tee hee), but it certainly is an unnecessary thing in the grand scope of what the rules make possible in D&D.

I mean, I don't want every demigod to have to invest in lyre of building, for goodness sakes. Now that strains suspension of disbelief.

Yep. I don't have anything else to add except total agreement (I can't count how many times I've wished this forum had a Like button).


You spelled "stupid" wrong there.

In general the god rules are inane. It wouldn't be hard to devise better ones.

Oh? Care to give it a try then? :smallbiggrin:

Any plans for more homebrew in the near future in general? You've noted a couple of times that you're somewhat dissatisfied with the old Planar revision project threads and I've also seen a couple of new threads pop up. You too busy or do you see yourself going back to those sometime soon?

[afroakuma]

Oh? Care to give it a try then? :smallbiggrin:

Any plans for more homebrew in the near future in general? You've noted a couple of times that you're somewhat dissatisfied with the old Planar revision project threads and I've also seen a couple of new threads pop up. You too busy or do you see yourself going back to those sometime soon?

I've been exceedingly busy; a lot of different projects command my attention at the best of times, and I need time to gather motivation/inspiration to do those. In the main, though, I've been consumed with the issue of moving, which has finally sort of been resolved. Hopefully that will afford me more time in the nearish future.

[Phelix-Mu]

I have considered a more refined look at the planes several times, but it is a mountain of work, and my world is already stupidly large and perpetually incomplete. Taking on the various infinities of the planes, and the greater powers that populate them, is a huge task.

But, man, it would be fun. Once they come up with cyberbrains and distributive processing for human consciousness, then I might have the time. Lol.