OOTS #961 - The Discussion Thread

[Zombimode]

Anyone can roll a Nat 20.

Doesn't really matter, since on skill and ability checks a natural 20 is not an automatic success.

[Domino Quartz]

Just a question from a non-native speaker: i looked at several places and listened to various speakers, but i could not distinguish if someone says "no" or "know". Is there some reason why people say Roy must be dumb to mistake the one for the other?

Not that I can think of. In all dialects of English that I know of, "know" and "no" sound exactly the same. I don't think it's just that though - they're saying he must be dumb to mistake the meaning of the sentence as a whole, not just that word.

[Yendor]

Not that I can think of. In all dialects of English that I know of, "know" and "no" sound exactly the same. I don't think it's just that though - they're saying he must be dumb to mistake the meaning of the sentence as a whole, not just that word.

Never mind that it's so contrived there's no way anyone would get the real meaning when there's a perfectly obvious one.

[Toper]

Worst punchline in a thousand strips.
Heh... they can't all be winners.
Ha, that's pretty much my reaction too, though I liked the Thor comic book joke.

It might have been better if Roy had offered a reasonable interpretation of Durkon's prayer -- say that his vampiric nature was conflicting with his worship of Thor, but that Thor was winning out.

[Edhelras]

Some evidence that Andi is the same crewmember that was previously seen during the storm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html), although at that time she was dirty in the face (due to repair-work presumably) and wearing a cap and a jacket (a bit strange, though, as she seems to be the only crewmember wearing a weather-appropriate outfit).

- her trousers, visible under that long jacket, are the same colour as those Andi is wearing later on
- her pony-tail looks exactly the same - both when blowing to the right and to the left - as Andi's hair is
- eh... her bosom is slightly less pronounced in the pictures with the jacket on, but that might be just a well-known effect of heavy clothing on female curves...
- in the storm scene, Bandana has to remind her to call her "Captain". In the scene with Roy, she seems to repeat this reluctance to acknowledge Bandana as the present commander of the ship

What I really cannot understand, though, is why Bandana talked about "Sally" in this scene: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html
Either there is a story-wise point to this, or there must simply be a mistake in the namesetting.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, we've now got both "can we move on to the main plot already?" and "the Giant is a better writer than that." At least we made it to page 8 this time.

Huh, guess we have. I'm sadly predicting that every strip with The High Priest of Hel is going to be like this.

[Keltest]

Huh, guess we have. I'm sadly predicting that every strip with The High Priest of Hel is going to be like this.

I don't think it will be too bad, as long as we aren't reminded every 3rd strip that Durkon isn't Durkon. I don't know about anyone else, but im reasonably confidant that I am not a goldfish and can remember large plot reveals that happened at the end of the last book (and the beginning of this one) without constantly being brought back to it.

[Kish]

Just a question from a non-native speaker: i looked at several places and listened to various speakers, but i could not distinguish if someone says "no" or "know". Is there some reason why people say Roy must be dumb to mistake the one for the other?
Ever since we got the revelation that the High Priest of Hel isn't Durkon, people have been declaring that's it's unaccountably stupid of Roy not to immediately realize it too, because Rich hasn't been writing all the High Priest of Hel's words in a completely illegible exaggeration of Durkon's accent, or because the High Priest of Hel swore (as if Durkon wasn't at least tied for most foul-mouthed member of the Order), or because it strains their sense of credulity for Roy not to trust Belkar.

[Keltest]

Ever since we got the revelation that the High Priest of Hel isn't Durkon, people have been declaring that's it's unaccountably stupid of Roy not to immediately realize it too, because Rich hasn't been writing all the High Priest of Hel's words in a completely illegible exaggeration of Durkon's accent, or because the High Priest of Hel swore (as if Durkon wasn't at least tied for most foul-mouthed member of the Order), or because it strains their sense of credulity for Roy not to trust Belkar.

To be fair, Belkar has a point when he says that the Order is taking it in stride way too much. Even if he doesn't know that Roy is eavesdropping on Durkon, Haley should have a small army of people following her around pelting her with red flags.

[Ravens_cry]

Doesn't really matter, since on skill and ability checks a natural 20 is not an automatic success.
Still, if Sir Sucks-a-lot rolled really low, it would be enough. Anyone can roll a 1 as well, though that's not an automatic failure either.

[Unisus]

Yeah, i get it - Roy must be really dumb - eavesdropping at the door when he could as well log in here and just read what's going on... I don't get it why people always confuse "knowledge" with "intelligence"

[Jay R]

Ever since we got the revelation that the High Priest of Hel isn't Durkon, people have been declaring that's it's unaccountably stupid of Roy not to immediately realize it too, because Rich hasn't been writing all the High Priest of Hel's words in a completely illegible exaggeration of Durkon's accent, or because the High Priest of Hel swore (as if Durkon wasn't at least tied for most foul-mouthed member of the Order), or because it strains their sense of credulity for Roy not to trust Belkar.

Furthermore, before it was revealed. some people on this forum said that the vampire was somebody else, and the rest of us wouldn't listen, and didn't believe it. What they think is "unaccountably stupid" is what we ourselves did.

[oppyu]

To be fair, it's a lot easier to be all "Why doesn't Roy just know this." when I was one of the people saying not-Durkon was not Durkon from the beginning. :smallbiggrin:

There's no doubt that Roy is sticking his head in the sand here. It's understandable of course, but that doesn't make it less frustrating that they're not saving Durkon right now. Someone should please save Durkon.

[Kish]

I'm sure someone will. At the end of this storyline (which may well be the primary storyline of the book that just started), not at the beginning.

I like Durkon as much or more than most people, which is why I'm glad he's getting spotlight time. I wouldn't want the next strip to feature the High Priest of Hel getting staked and Durkon getting resurrected (so that he can go back to being the Order's wallflower) for the same reason I'm in no hurry to see Xykon destroyed.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Furthermore, before it was revealed. some people on this forum said that the vampire was somebody else, and the rest of us wouldn't listen, and didn't believe it. What they think is "unaccountably stupid" is what we ourselves did.

It was unaccountably stupid to think that then too.

[multilis]

Yeah, i get it - Roy must be really dumb - eavesdropping at the door when he could as well log in here and just read what's going on... I don't get it why people always confuse "knowledge" with "intelligence"
Would you feel the same way if it was Miko being tricked rather than Roy?

(Each is tricked in own way, Miko would naturally be more suspicious of both a vampire and a group that is lying to her order. And if Miko was correct - which given only everything she saw was possible, then any other course of action may have lead to complete destruction of her world including everyone in every afterlife... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html, power of a deceptive leader to defeat justice. If even a noble might defeat or delay justice, then how much more so the ruler of the city? Everything Miko did not know just like Roy was off panel... but yes being more careful - better looking at alternative theories, may have helped both.

It would be an interesting experiment to edit OOTS comic down to only those frames that Miko saw, plus background Miko knew and see if someone who never read OOTS could make similar mistake. Do same for Roy. See how many readers are tricked in each case.

It is obvious that Durkula would expect OOTS to be suspicious after all the drama between him and Belkar including dominate and send overboard and the Belkar logic that forced him to do that, and may have a plan to deal with "listening in" on the door.

As far as "stupid" goes, even Belkar I think has some stupid actions... once he has discovered Durkula's secret he is doing a very bad job of selling that to rest of OOTS)

[Jay R]

It was unaccountably stupid to think that then too.

Insult received. But no matter how unaccountably stupid we are, it's still proof that this is a mistake somebody can be expected to make, because people made it.

[Unisus]

Would you feel the same way if it was Miko being tricked rather than Roy?

Actually - yes. The mistake of Miko (in my eyes) was not that she didn't know what was really going on - it was her insistance on the impossibility of her being wrong and acting accordingly.

Not knowing something has nothing to do with being dumb.

[multilis]

Actually - yes. The mistake of Miko (in my eyes) was not that she didn't know what was really going on - it was her insistance on the impossibility of her being wrong and acting accordingly.

Not knowing something has nothing to do with being dumb.
You haven't proven her insistence in impossibility of her being wrong. With Durkons help she has easily accepted possibility of being wrong early on, that OOTS might be good guys or at least neutral.

In final case she was given fate of the universe including everyone in good afterlife as potential stakes and short time of extreme passion/emotion, where even a few minutes delay might doom everyone. In contrast Roy has days to think, and Belkar is repeatedly pointing at the truth, and Durkula clearly dominated and tried to kill Belkar. So the advocate for "possibility for being wrong" in Roy's head given all this time of cool collected thought could start with Belkar talk in quiet time. The "possibilty of being wrong" would also not just rely on Roys own actions but involve at least Haley as Roy knows from experience Haley sees through a scam much better than Roy.

[theNater]

To be fair, Belkar has a point when he says that the Order is taking it in stride way too much. Even if he doesn't know that Roy is eavesdropping on Durkon, Haley should have a small army of people following her around pelting her with red flags.
What do you propose the Order should be doing instead? What actions do you believe Haley should be taking in response to those red flags?

It's understandable of course, but that doesn't make it less frustrating that they're not saving Durkon right now. Someone should please save Durkon.
How do you propose they do this? They have no cleric capable of bringing Durkon back if they stake Durkula.

[multilis]

What do you propose the Order should be doing instead? What actions do you believe Haley should be taking in response to those red flags?

How do you propose they do this? They have no cleric capable of bringing Durkon back if they stake Durkula.
I personally think Roy should start with talking to A) belkar to learn all his reasons, b) talk to Haley, ask her to try and find way to see through scam as Haley is best at that. Haley should be evaluating any plan to see if other side could pull scam, including the listening at door method Roy is using this strip... In other words they should be working as a team rather than Roy as a loner.

Stakes are so high and time is available, talking is cheap. Dealing with fate of universe including potential destruction of everyone in Roys LG afterlife and if Durkula is against them he can dominate/wipe out entire party with a surprise attack. (Durkon of old did not call OOTS for help battling a vampire because of power of Dominate to defeat them all, all of OOTS knows that so they should know what a risk a vampire is... Durkula for free could drain Roy and instantly raise him as vampire when Roy is doing blood donation for example. V is only real challenge and Durkula has all time in world to pick the perfect ambush and choose perfect spells verses unprepared V)

[Porthos]

(not sure why I'm responding since I was just making a joke, but....)


Doesn't really matter, since on skill and ability checks a natural 20 is not an automatic success.

Belkar gets a +2 bonus on Sense Motive versus Durkon if he does indeed have Favored Enemy (undead) as some people suspect (and at least one poster nearly proved with math that I'm not about to try to recreate)

Beyond that, Belkar could be getting a decent sized circumstance bonus for being Dukon's favorite chew toy when he was first spawned. :smallamused:

All of that could easily make up for Belkar's lack of Wisdom in this one specific situation and go a small amount of the way to counteract the +8 Bluff boost that Durkon received. Then it's just a matter of contested rolls rule of funny plot.

(not that I think Belkar actually made a Sense Motive check here... I think he's just being prejudiced against people who have treated him like he was a piña colada back in the day)

....

Plus, there is precedence for this in the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html), you know. :smallwink:

[Mathalor]

I, like Spacey, now wonder what the original chant used to be.

[Alaris]

I think Durkon [Vampire] is making good use of that Racial +8 to Listen Checks.

He hears Roy and Andi outside, and is spinning a fake chant for them. Albeit, still a bad chant... but hey, they never said he was Charismatic.

[Unisus]

You haven't proven her insistence in impossibility of her being wrong. With Durkons help she has easily accepted possibility of being wrong early on, that OOTS might be good guys or at least neutral.

In final case she was given fate of the universe including everyone in good afterlife as potential stakes and short time of extreme passion/emotion, where even a few minutes delay might doom everyone. In contrast Roy has days to think, and Belkar is repeatedly pointing at the truth, and Durkula clearly dominated and tried to kill Belkar. So the advocate for "possibility for being wrong" in Roy's head given all this time of cool collected thought could start with Belkar talk in quiet time. The "possibilty of being wrong" would also not just rely on Roys own actions but involve at least Haley as Roy knows from experience Haley sees through a scam much better than Roy.

The fate of the universe was not a question of killing Shojo imediately or let him go to jail first. Especially if Shojo had been conspiring with Xykon, he could have been a valuable prisoner. So even if all she said would have been true, the immediate execution of Shojo was not a necessity. So no, she didn't do the only right thing to save the universe, even with what she thought to be knowing.

And insisting on being right? Read 406 to 409. Miko is not willing to give the people she is accusing the opportunity to declare themselves, and even after her fall she still believes that she's right - that she must be right.

But actually this does not make a difference, as i never said that Miko was dumb to believe the wrong things.

All i said is that not knowing something does not make anyone dumb.

Roy does not know anything about Vampires. All he knows is that his friend got turned into one. And which reason does he have not to believe that this Vampire is just a slightly changed Durkon? There's Belkar who seems to have a grudge against Vampire-Durkon. And where did Roy see that Durkon took control of Belkar and tried to kill him? As has been said in 958, Belkar tried to get killed by Miko just to make her fall. So what difference to now when he tries to make people think that Durkon is a dangerous monster? And actually Roy did something to make sure the Vampire is still on their side - by eavesdropping he confirmed that Durkon still prays to Thor.

Of course he could do more thoroughly investigations, but if your friend assures you that he's on your side and you make observations that confirm this, normally that is enough to be sure.

[Angelalex242]

Roy is NOT making Miko's error here...he's taking the time to verify that Belkar is wrong, instead of just blindly believing he is right. Roy's thought process probably went something like, 'well, there's 95% chance Belkar is wrong...but 95% probability fails to occur 5% of the time, so I'd better doublecheck...'

[Mojique]

The girl is bold. I like her.

[Amphiox]

To be fair, Belkar has a point when he says that the Order is taking it in stride way too much. Even if he doesn't know that Roy is eavesdropping on Durkon, Haley should have a small army of people following her around pelting her with red flags.

We have not yet seen Haley's private reaction to Durkon's situation. We've seen her verbally go along with Roy's plan while *in the presence of Roy AND Elan AND HPoH*. A wise rogue would keep her own counsel in such a situation.

[Falbrogna]

And where did Roy see that Durkon took control of Belkar and tried to kill him? As has been said in 958, Belkar tried to get killed by Miko just to make her fall. So what difference to now when he tries to make people think that Durkon is a dangerous monster?
A bunch, actually.

[Unisus]

He may have seen Belkar jumping overboard, but that does not mean that he saw Vampire-Durkon controlling Belkar and ordering him to jump.

[multilis]

The fate of the universe was not a question of killing Shojo imediately or let him go to jail first. Especially if Shojo had been conspiring with Xykon, he could have been a valuable prisoner. So even if all she said would have been true, the immediate execution of Shojo was not a necessity. So no, she didn't do the only right thing to save the universe, even with what she thought to be knowing.

And insisting on being right? Read 406 to 409. Miko is not willing to give the people she is accusing the opportunity to declare themselves, and even after her fall she still believes that she's right - that she must be right.

But actually this does not make a difference, as i never said that Miko was dumb to believe the wrong things.

All i said is that not knowing something does not make anyone dumb.

Roy does not know anything about Vampires. All he knows is that his friend got turned into one. And which reason does he have not to believe that this Vampire is just a slightly changed Durkon? There's Belkar who seems to have a grudge against Vampire-Durkon. And where did Roy see that Durkon took control of Belkar and tried to kill him? As has been said in 958, Belkar tried to get killed by Miko just to make her fall. So what difference to now when he tries to make people think that Durkon is a dangerous monster? And actually Roy did something to make sure the Vampire is still on their side - by eavesdropping he confirmed that Durkon still prays to Thor.

Of course he could do more thoroughly investigations, but if your friend assures you that he's on your side and you make observations that confirm this, normally that is enough to be sure.
Repeat: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html

"the immediate execution of Shojo was not a necessity" If a noble of much lesser rank and power can manipulate a trial to last weeks and make the good guys look bad, and Belkar who was supposed to be in jail can try to assassinate Miko (did Shojo help him, give him orders to kill Miko?), then an evil Shojo can possibly manipulate things so that Miko is dead quickly, X wins, etc... Star wars 3, a single jedi fails to kill palpatine, palpatine kills all the jedi. Shojo might have his plan 66, X is almost at the gates. Lots of things happen very quickly to make Miko extremely paranoid, and even before that some Paladins don't take jokes very well such as "steal candy from babies", and OOTS did lots of joking about liking gluttony and corruption, etc. So in Mikos mind easy enough to conclude they could be on payroll of some evil overlord if price was right.

Some in the audience cheered the day that V eliminated Daimyo Kubota, saw that as a good thing rather than bad thing.

Roy is being scammed, Miko was being scammed (including by bad luck in overhearing incomplete info). Roy is being a loner rather than heart to heart talk with Belkar, talk to Haley (team up on planning), talk to rest of team he knows he can trust, eg V can you think of something to test and have a plan b in case Durkula goes evil (V is their best hope to survive a vampire ambush). Miko was being loner rather than talk to saphire guard team. Roy had days, Miko had very short emotional period of time including having Belkar try to kill her.

When faced with the evil twin (Nale) pretending to be good, it was Belkar and V who were able to detect the bad twin. Haley was able to find the real X when there were 3 fakes. Roy has 3 other team members who have shown skills that he lacks, and he is playing loner now with his suspicions.

[Emanick]

"the immediate execution of Shojo was not a necessity" If a noble of much lesser rank and power can manipulate a trial to last weeks and make the good guys look bad, and Belkar who was supposed to be in jail can try to assassinate Miko (did Shojo help him, give him orders to kill Miko?), then an evil Shojo can possibly manipulate things so that Miko is dead quickly, X wins, etc... Star wars 3, a single jedi fails to kill palpatine, palpatine kills all the jedi. Shojo might have his plan 66, X is almost at the gates. Lots of things happen very quickly to make Miko extremely paranoid, and even before that some Paladins don't take jokes very well such as "steal candy from babies", and OOTS did lots of joking about liking gluttony and corruption, etc. So in Mikos mind easy enough to conclude they could be on payroll of some evil overlord if price was right.

Some in the audience cheered the day that V eliminated Shojo, saw that as a good thing rather than bad thing.

Roy is being scammed, Miko was being scammed (including by bad luck in overhearing incomplete info). Roy is being a loner rather than heart to heart talk with Belkar, talk to Haley (team up on planning), talk to rest of team he knows he can trust, eg V can you think of something to test and have a plan b in case Durkula goes evil (V is their best hope to survive a vampire ambush). Miko was being loner rather than talk to saphire guard team. Roy had days, Miko had very short emotional period of time including having Belkar try to kill her.

When faced with the evil twin (Nale) pretending to be good, it was Belkar and V who were able to detect the bad twin. Haley was able to find the real X when there were 3 fakes. Roy has 3 other team members who have shown skills that he lacks, and he is playing loner now with his suspicions.

Are we reading the same comic? :smallconfused:

[multilis]

Are we reading the same comic? :smallconfused:
Ask question to explain confusion.

Daimyo Kubota http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html goes into details. Almost everyone has seen star wars 3. Saphire guard not that different than Jedi, can end up same way as Jedi did in star wars 3 if the leader of entire city is working for evil side. Even a lesser noble could have ninja assassins pop out and eliminate foes (including attempting to kill highest ranked members of saphire guard)

Miko found out that her supreme leader was lying to Saphire guard/jedi as he talked to Roy, a member of OOTS (belkar) was trying to kill her, she would know the same thing as Shojo that there was a strong organised crime element that could kill rivals (Shojo had to play idiot to stay alive), etc. Not that hard to jump to wrong conclusion that Shojo is potentially the Sith Lord, and since "Roy lied about killing X", they all may be part of same team evil.

[Emanick]

Ask question to explain confusion.

Daimyo Kubota http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html goes into details. Almost everyone has seen star wars 3. Saphire guard not that different than Jedi, can end up same way as Jedi did in star wars 3 if the leader of entire city is working for evil side. Even a lesser noble could have ninja assassins pop out and eliminate foes (including attempting to kill highest ranked members of saphire guard)

Miko found out that her supreme leader was lying to Saphire guard/jedi as he talked to Roy, a member of OOTS (belkar) was trying to kill her, she would know the same thing as Shojo that there was a strong organised crime element that could kill rivals (Shojo had to play idiot to stay alive), etc. Not that hard to jump to wrong conclusion that Shojo is potentially the Sith Lord, and since "Roy lied about killing X", they all may be part of same team evil.

Your edited post makes much more sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

[multilis]

Your edited post makes much more sense. Thanks for clearing that up.
(Sorry, I posted, then noticed my mistakes eg "V eliminates Shojo rather than Kubota" and it took a while to look up info to fix them properly - eg spell Kubota's name right and find the link again to page, saved changes then saw your comment)

[ti'esar]

Well, we've now got both "can we move on to the main plot already?" and "the Giant is a better writer than that." At least we made it to page 8 this time.Huh, guess we have. I'm sadly predicting that every strip with The High Priest of Hel is going to be like this.

And now we have an honest-to-gods Miko debate on top of that.

(Which is actually kind of hilarious from where I'm standing.)

[Kish]

Your edited post makes much more sense. Thanks for clearing that up.
I commented at the time that Miko did exactly what Mace Windu did. The only difference is that her assumptions were wrong (well, and no one cut off her hand while she was doing it).

[oppyu]

What do you propose the Order should be doing instead? What actions do you believe Haley should be taking in response to those red flags?

How do you propose they do this? They have no cleric capable of bringing Durkon back if they stake Durkula.
I dunno, not-Durkon should trip on a stake just as the Mechane lands by a group of clerics who specialise in resurrecting vampires. Then they can all sing and play Parcheesi and forgive each other and are your emotional impulses rational and well thought-out?

[Unisus]

Repeat: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html

"the immediate execution of Shojo was not a necessity" If a noble of much lesser rank and power can manipulate a trial to last weeks and make the good guys look bad, and Belkar who was supposed to be in jail can try to assassinate Miko (did Shojo help him, give him orders to kill Miko?), then an evil Shojo can possibly manipulate things so that Miko is dead quickly, X wins, etc... Star wars 3, a single jedi fails to kill palpatine, palpatine kills all the jedi. Shojo might have his plan 66, X is almost at the gates. Lots of things happen very quickly to make Miko extremely paranoid, and even before that some Paladins don't take jokes very well such as "steal candy from babies", and OOTS did lots of joking about liking gluttony and corruption, etc. So in Mikos mind easy enough to conclude they could be on payroll of some evil overlord if price was right.

Some in the audience cheered the day that V eliminated Daimyo Kubota, saw that as a good thing rather than bad thing.

Roy is being scammed, Miko was being scammed (including by bad luck in overhearing incomplete info). Roy is being a loner rather than heart to heart talk with Belkar, talk to Haley (team up on planning), talk to rest of team he knows he can trust, eg V can you think of something to test and have a plan b in case Durkula goes evil (V is their best hope to survive a vampire ambush). Miko was being loner rather than talk to saphire guard team. Roy had days, Miko had very short emotional period of time including having Belkar try to kill her.

When faced with the evil twin (Nale) pretending to be good, it was Belkar and V who were able to detect the bad twin. Haley was able to find the real X when there were 3 fakes. Roy has 3 other team members who have shown skills that he lacks, and he is playing loner now with his suspicions.

So ok, let's just say Miko did the only right thing she could do according to the informations she had - what does that have to do with my statement that people are not dumb just because they don't know everything? I mean, you would have a point there if i had said that Miko was dumb - but i did not.

[theNater]

I personally think Roy should start with talking to A) belkar to learn all his reasons, b) talk to Haley, ask her to try and find way to see through scam as Haley is best at that. Haley should be evaluating any plan to see if other side could pull scam, including the listening at door method Roy is using this strip... In other words they should be working as a team rather than Roy as a loner.
Roy has made the point that whether the vampire is Durkon or not, the Order needs to keep track of the body and gets more benefit out of having it up and casting than they would out of a small pile of dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html)? Is there any reason Belkar can provide or any information Haley could realistically acquire which would change that?


Dealing with fate of universe including potential destruction of everyone in Roys LG afterlife and if Durkula is against them he can dominate/wipe out entire party with a surprise attack.
If Durkula was against them, the time for that surprise attack would have been here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html). Between himself, Zz'dtri, their summoned monsters, Nale, the sand elemental, the absence of Vaarsuvius, and Belkar's massive levels of ability drain, it was practically an ideal time to destroy the Order, if that was his goal. The fact the he didn't attack then, but instead came to their aid, has earned him a measure of trust.

Besides, Durkula has no reason to be against them. If the universe is destroyed, he goes right along with it. Vampirism isn't a get out of Snarl free card.


...are your emotional impulses rational and well thought-out?
No, but I always try to refrain from publicly calling people (even fictional people) idiots for acting rationally based on the information they have rather than following my emotional impulses.

[vergil]

I commented at the time that Miko did exactly what Mace Windu did. The only difference is that her assumptions were wrong (well, and no one cut off her hand while she was doing it).

Well, not quite. Windu did try to arrest Palpatine first, and Palpatine responded by whipping out his lightsaber and icing 3 Jedi Masters, then fighting Windu in a lengthy duel before being disarmed, and then blasting Windu with force lightning. Shojo never had a weapon, didn't kill anyone in the room, and never even bothered trying to fight or resist the arrest. Windu had first hand proof of Palpatine being both evil and dangerous as hell. Miko...didn't.

So her assumptions being wrong was not the only thing that was different.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't think it will be too bad, as long as we aren't reminded every 3rd strip that Durkon isn't Durkon. I don't know about anyone else, but im reasonably confidant that I am not a goldfish and can remember large plot reveals that happened at the end of the last book (and the beginning of this one) without constantly being brought back to it.
Yeah, that's not helping to reassure me.

And now we have an honest-to-gods Miko debate on top of that.

(Which is actually kind of hilarious from where I'm standing.)

I wasn't expecting that at all. I'm going to tempt fate by saying it can't get much worse.

[zimmerwald1915]

I wasn't expecting that at all. I'm going to tempt fate by saying it can't get much worse.
Is that a challenge? Because we could add familicide and representation to the mix. It wouldn't even be hard.

[Amphiox]

Roy has made the point that
If Durkula was against them, the time for that surprise attack would have been [URL="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html"]here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html). Between himself, Zz'dtri, their summoned monsters, Nale, the sand elemental, the absence of Vaarsuvius, and Belkar's massive levels of ability drain, it was practically an ideal time to destroy the Order, if that was his goal. The fact the he didn't attack then, but instead came to their aid, has earned him a measure of trust.


At the very least, this demonstrates to Roy that the vampire is not *imminently* their enemy. He may have nefarious plans of his own (which we now know he does) but those plans do not involve immediately destroying the Order. Whatever they might be, there is time available to counter them. Weighing that against Xykon threatening to unravel all creation within 2-3 weeks, the prudent course is obvious, and Roy took it.

And for all we currently know, Hel's plans may well involve helping the Order thwart Xykon first (or at least helping put them in a position to thwart Xykon, and taking advantage of the aftermath), before proceeding with the "bring Thor and Odin to their knees" part, (since she does not benefit if the world is destroyed either). In that case as well, it is not unreasonable to keep the vampire with the group.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Is that a challenge? Because we could add familicide and representation to the mix. It wouldn't even be hard.

It would be both easy and morally justified.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Is that a challenge? Because we could add familicide and representation to the mix. It wouldn't even be hard.
This is why I shouldn't tempt fate.

It would be both easy and morally justified.
Don't you start too!

[Baphomet]

I don't really understand why the whole "still worships Thor" thing is such a sticking point for Roy. I was under the impression that Roy already knows he's evil now, as per the "no more evil than Belkar" exchange. He's also seemed clear in the past that the continued existence of vampire Durkon is something he's only tolerating now out of extreme necessity. Regardless of vampire Durkon's new motivations, he's banking on him rather having a world to live in than not. I was under the impression that, after these dire circumstances are no more, the plan to resurrect old Durkon would be the immediate next step. If that's the correct interpretation of Roy's motivation, I don't understand why he'd care who this new Durkon worships, so long as it's not the god of letting a god-killing abomination kill all the gods and unmake the world (If there is such a god, I doubt it's Hel).

Were I in Roy's position, I would only be questioning vampire Durkon's motivations as much as I would need to in order to assure myself that he's not actively working to stop the OotS from saving the world. I would also be making plans to put him down as soon as the lich is out of the picture. I simply do not have the means to deal with it now and I need a cleric, plus him being immune to energy drain is a nice bonus.

On the other hand, if I were in the High Priest of Hel's position, I'd be saying something along the lines of, "I can feel that I'm different now, things that used to be important to me aren't anymore, I have new desires and urges. Because of this, Thor doesn't accept me as his disciple and I've started praying to Hel for my clerical powers. I still feel my friendship with all of you (Belkar notwithstanding) and I still understand the importance of our mission and I am fully committed to helping out any way I can." I'd then have more leeway with out-of-character actions. I'd bet on that working a lot more than having to pretend that I am 100% the same person, even including provably false things like worshiping a different god. I'd also be planning on killing them all after this lich thing is taken care of, or before depending on what my actual task from Hel is.

In any case, the punchline this time made me groan and chuckle simultaneously.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Roy probably doesn't need him to be worshiping Thor. But him worshiping a good aligned god would be a very good clue that Belkar is full of ****.

[theNater]

I don't really understand why the whole "still worships Thor" thing is such a sticking point for Roy. I was under the impression that Roy already knows he's evil now, as per the "no more evil than Belkar" exchange. He's also seemed clear in the past that the continued existence of vampire Durkon is something he's only tolerating now out of extreme necessity. Regardless of vampire Durkon's new motivations, he's banking on him rather having a world to live in than not. I was under the impression that, after these dire circumstances are no more, the plan to resurrect old Durkon would be the immediate next step. If that's the correct interpretation of Roy's motivation, I don't understand why he'd care who this new Durkon worships, so long as it's not the god of letting a god-killing abomination kill all the gods and unmake the world (If there is such a god, I doubt it's Hel).

Were I in Roy's position, I would only be questioning vampire Durkon's motivations as much as I would need to in order to assure myself that he's not actively working to stop the OotS from saving the world. I would also be making plans to put him down as soon as the lich is out of the picture. I simply do not have the means to deal with it now and I need a cleric, plus him being immune to energy drain is a nice bonus.

On the other hand, if I were in the High Priest of Hel's position, I'd be saying something along the lines of, "I can feel that I'm different now, things that used to be important to me aren't anymore, I have new desires and urges. Because of this, Thor doesn't accept me as his disciple and I've started praying to Hel for my clerical powers. I still feel my friendship with all of you (Belkar notwithstanding) and I still understand the importance of our mission and I am fully committed to helping out any way I can." I'd then have more leeway with out-of-character actions. I'd bet on that working a lot more than having to pretend that I am 100% the same person, even including provably false things like worshiping a different god. I'd also be planning on killing them all after this lich thing is taken care of, or before depending on what my actual task from Hel is.
"No more Evil than Belkar" is not the same as "exactly as Evil as Belkar". How similar Durkula is to Durkon is going to affect what level of trust he receives, and being more trusted is absolutely to Durkula's advantage.

It's also important for Roy to know whether this is Durkon or not in case Durkula objects to being destroyed and resurrected. If it is Durkon, he says he's happier as a vampire, and he's not doing any harm, then forcing him to become realive would be Evil.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't really understand why the whole "still worships Thor" thing is such a sticking point for Roy. I was under the impression that Roy already knows he's evil now, as per the "no more evil than Belkar" exchange. He's also seemed clear in the past that the continued existence of vampire Durkon is something he's only tolerating now out of extreme necessity. Regardless of vampire Durkon's new motivations, he's banking on him rather having a world to live in than not. I was under the impression that, after these dire circumstances are no more, the plan to resurrect old Durkon would be the immediate next step. If that's the correct interpretation of Roy's motivation, I don't understand why he'd care who this new Durkon worships, so long as it's not the god of letting a god-killing abomination kill all the gods and unmake the world (If there is such a god, I doubt it's Hel).

Were I in Roy's position, I would only be questioning vampire Durkon's motivations as much as I would need to in order to assure myself that he's not actively working to stop the OotS from saving the world. I would also be making plans to put him down as soon as the lich is out of the picture. I simply do not have the means to deal with it now and I need a cleric, plus him being immune to energy drain is a nice bonus.

On the other hand, if I were in the High Priest of Hel's position, I'd be saying something along the lines of, "I can feel that I'm different now, things that used to be important to me aren't anymore, I have new desires and urges. Because of this, Thor doesn't accept me as his disciple and I've started praying to Hel for my clerical powers. I still feel my friendship with all of you (Belkar notwithstanding) and I still understand the importance of our mission and I am fully committed to helping out any way I can." I'd then have more leeway with out-of-character actions. I'd bet on that working a lot more than having to pretend that I am 100% the same person, even including provably false things like worshiping a different god. I'd also be planning on killing them all after this lich thing is taken care of, or before depending on what my actual task from Hel is.

In any case, the punchline this time made me groan and chuckle simultaneously.
I think that an important thing for Roy, and the rest of the Order, is that Durkon is still very similar to the person he was before he became a vampire. So, pretending that some things are still the same, like worshipping Thor, makes it easier for the others to except him, and it makes his intentions seem better. Belkar seems not to trust him because he has changed to much.

Is it possible for a Cleric to worship a god but prepare spells non-theistically?

[Wardog]

Roy's made the same kind of mistake (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) before. His caution made him blinder to the truth. Sometimes you just have to be really smart to be really stupid.

Or to be slightly more specific: smart people can be very good at creating justifications for their preconceived ideas.

[Calavera]

Note. Strip#951 now says "Andi", so a lot of the discussion and links no longer make sense.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Note. Strip#951 now says "Andi", so a lot of the discussion and links no longer make sense.

Okay, then it was an error. At least everything makes sense now.

[Keltest]

Okay, then it was an error. At least everything makes sense now.

yay internal consistency!

[Emperordaniel]

Note. Strip#951 now says "Andi", so a lot of the discussion and links no longer make sense.

:smallfrown: And here I was hoping that Sally was Andi's time-travelling genetic clone from the future/past... oh well.

[Keltest]

:smallfrown: And here I was hoping that Sally was Andi's time-travelling genetic clone from the future/past... oh well.

Obviously she altered time in order to change her alias and not disrupt history.

[Gusion]

We have not yet seen Haley's private reaction to Durkon's situation. We've seen her verbally go along with Roy's plan while *in the presence of Roy AND Elan AND HPoH*. A wise rogue would keep her own counsel in such a situation.

I generally agree with this notion. Haley hasn't given blood yet, either, as far as we know. I kinda hope she's skeptical partially to kill the "good are trusting fools" meme.

As an aside, I am in the "last panel is forced" camp. It just doesn't work for me.

[Nighthawk4]

For those who are not aware - or have not Googled - Hel is a Norse Deity, as of course is Thor.

I really wish Rich was able to post updates more frequently, as I am keen to find out how they get :durkon: back to normal :smallsmile:

[BannedInSchool]

Hmm, Bandana should have asked Roy to hold the "line" in #951, as that's what sailors call ropes.

[Unisus]

Hmm, Bandana should have asked Roy to hold the "line" in #951, as that's what sailors call ropes.

Maybe she dumbed it down for him, seeing that he's not a sailor.

[zimmerwald1915]

Hmm, Bandana should have asked Roy to hold the "line" in #951, as that's what sailors call ropes.
If you want to get really technical, that particular line is probably a shroud. Though it should also be remembered that not all nautical terms transitioned into aeronautics.

[ti'esar]

Is that a challenge? Because we could add familicide and representation to the mix. It wouldn't even be hard.

Frankly, I thought we were already bordering on familicide (at least in terms of the broader issue of prejudice against "monsters") with all of that stuff earlier about how the only good vampire is an extra-dead vampire.

...Man, these discussion threads are going to be either hilarious or utterly unbearable for the duration of this arc, aren't they?

[zimmerwald1915]

Frankly, I thought we were already bordering on familicide (at least in terms of the broader issue of prejudice against "monsters") with all of that stuff earlier about how the only good vampire is an extra-dead vampire.
That's why it wouldn't be hard to make the transition :smallwink:


...Man, these discussion threads are going to be either hilarious or utterly unbearable for the duration of this arc, aren't they?
Yup. 2015's gonna be a hell of a year.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I generally agree with this notion. Haley hasn't given blood yet, either, as far as we know. I kinda hope she's skeptical partially to kill the "good are trusting fools" meme.
She seemed okay with the idea earlier, in 946.

...Man, these discussion threads are going to be either hilarious or utterly unbearable for the duration of this arc, aren't they?
That's what I'm predicting.

[Bulldog Psion]

/

...Man, these discussion threads are going to be either hilarious or utterly unbearable for the duration of this arc, aren't they?

That's why I've been giving the most recent page a glance, and no more, about once a week, except when I see a new comic is up. Looking at the thread three or four times per month makes it a lot more tolerable.

[Zea mays]

Yup. 2015's gonna be a Hel of a year.

You meant to say that, right?:smallwink:

[Jasdoif]

:smallfrown: And here I was hoping that Sally was Andi's time-travelling genetic clone from the future/past... oh well.And here I was half-expecting them to be traditional twins (or at least go to the same hair stylist), and they held different implements (Sally a wrench, Andi a screwdriver) to help others tell them apart. :smalltongue:

[PhallicWarrior]

The comic's been in a bit of a holding pattern for a while now, but the puns and wordplay in the titles just keep getting better. (Or worse, depending on how much you like puns.)

[Gusion]

She seemed okay with the idea earlier, in 946.

If you're referring to her comment... I'd suggest noting that she ends it with, "right?"

There are multiple ways to read that, but I'd suggest that absolute certainty isn't one of them. I think we will find out soon enough what her opinion is, when it comes to be her time to get bitten. Relatively speaking though, I'd much rather learn what the non-oots participants in the story are doing.

I am really curious if we've seen the last of Azure City. I suspect we have, but Rich has left that open.

[Keltest]

If you're referring to her comment... I'd suggest noting that she ends it with, "right?"

There are multiple ways to read that, but I'd suggest that absolute certainty isn't one of them. I think we will find out soon enough what her opinion is, when it comes to be her time to get bitten. Relatively speaking though, I'd much rather learn what the non-oots participants in the story are doing.

I am really curious if we've seen the last of Azure City. I suspect we have, but Rich has left that open.

Azure City as in the physical location, or the refugees? Because the refugees are almost certainly going to come up again at least once more, so their plot can be resolved.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If you're referring to her comment... I'd suggest noting that she ends it with, "right?"

There are multiple ways to read that, but I'd suggest that absolute certainty isn't one of them. I think we will find out soon enough what her opinion is, when it comes to be her time to get bitten. Relatively speaking though, I'd much rather learn what the non-oots participants in the story are doing.

I am really curious if we've seen the last of Azure City. I suspect we have, but Rich has left that open.

I'm sorry, I totally messed up my source. I don't know what I was thinking. I meant 939, where the blood drive is first brought up.

[zimmerwald1915]

Azure City as in the physical location, or the refugees? Because the refugees are almost certainly going to come up again at least once more, so their plot can be resolved.
How is their plot not resolved?

O-Chul and Lien might make a return appearance, assuming Xykon and Redcloak didn't kill them within seconds of showing up at Kraagor's Gate, but Hinjo, the Katos, and the rest of the refugees? What's their role?

[Keltest]

How is their plot not resolved?

O-Chul and Lien might make a return appearance, assuming Xykon and Redcloak didn't kill them within seconds of showing up at Kraagor's Gate, but Hinjo, the Katos, and the rest of the refugees? What's their role?

I don't know? That would be the point of them showing up again. Theyre clearly doing something, since Hinjo and some soldiers were in the middle of a fight when they got some bad news and had to run off, and we spent like two and some books following them around to some degree or another. At the very least we'll probably see a scene that shows how theyre doing since they landed, since glaring questions like "what happened to the population of Azure City after they disembarked?" are generally things you want either as sequel hooks or answered.

[CaDzilla]

How is their plot not resolved?

O-Chul and Lien might make a return appearance, assuming Xykon and Redcloak didn't kill them within seconds of showing up at Kraagor's Gate, but Hinjo, the Katos, and the rest of the refugees? What's their role?

Something to do with taking back Azure City. They probably won't succeed though

[Jaxzan Proditor]

How is their plot not resolved?

O-Chul and Lien might make a return appearance, assuming Xykon and Redcloak didn't kill them within seconds of showing up at Kraagor's Gate, but Hinjo, the Katos, and the rest of the refugees? What's their role?

Doesn't Belkar still have to save Hinjo's life one more time, as predicted by Sangwaan in the bonus comic

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't know? That would be the point of them showing up again. Theyre clearly doing something, since Hinjo and some soldiers were in the middle of a fight when they got some bad news and had to run off, and we spent like two and some books following them around to some degree or another. At the very least we'll probably see a scene that shows how theyre doing since they landed, since glaring questions like "what happened to the population of Azure City after they disembarked?" are generally things you want either as sequel hooks or answered.
They were fighting carrion crawlers in the elven ruins, trying to claim them for Azurite settlement, just like we were told they'd be doing at the end of Don't Split the Party. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) It's entirely consistent, and there's no mystery; they're establishing a new status quo for themselves.


Something to do with taking back Azure City. They probably won't succeed though
For who? The fleet didn't leave with enough people to populate Azure City, and they lost a good number of people along the way. The population that stayed behind was enslaved or ethnically cleansed. Many of the slaves were massacred alongside the Resistance. Taking back Azure City is a pipe dream.


Doesn't Belkar still have to save Hinjo's life one more time, as predicted by Sangwaan in the bonus comic
Not if you accept the theory that Belkar's killing the assassin and using the Eye of Fear and Flame to fireball the hobgoblin archers counted as his two life-savings.

[Keltest]

They were fighting carrion crawlers in the elven ruins, trying to claim them for Azurite settlement, just like we were told they'd be doing at the end of Don't Split the Party. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) It's entirely consistent, and there's no mystery; they're establishing a new status quo for themselves.

Ignoring for the moment the artistic license the carrion crawlers are treated with, if we were never intended to see Hinjo again we would not be given a scene of him clearly planning to do something, and we wouldn't need to see that the sending went through the resistance to Hinjo to the Order, we could have just seen the Order get a sending from an azurite. At the very least, Hinjo has a vested interest in making sure the last gate is as protected as possible, and they at the very least have the resources needed to get involved remotely.

[zimmerwald1915]

Ignoring for the moment the artistic license the carrion crawlers are treated with, if we were never intended to see Hinjo again we would not be given a scene of him clearly planning to do something, and we wouldn't need to see that the sending went through the resistance to Hinjo to the Order, we could have just seen the Order get a sending from an azurite. At the very least, Hinjo has a vested interest in making sure the last gate is as protected as possible, and they at the very least have the resources needed to get involved remotely.
Hinjo made exactly one appearance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html) in Blood Runs in the Family. Where do you get "clearly planning to do something" from his expression, body language, or dialogue in that single panel? Or are you reaching back farther?

As for "making sure the last Gate is as protected as possible," Hinjo has already committed all his available resources, in the form of O-Chul and Lien, to that cause. He did that two books ago, and hasn't done anything since on that score other than relay a message to the Order. Hence my comment that we might see O-Chul and Lien again, but we won't be following the Azurite refugees or revisiting...let's call it the site of Soon's Rift.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Not if you accept the theory that Belkar's killing the assassin and using the Eye of Fear and Flame to fireball the hobgoblin archers counted as his two life-savings.[/spoiler]

Ah, I thought I remembered there being a hypothesis like that. I don't accept it myself, but it's open to interpretation.

[Math_Mage]

Hinjo made exactly one appearance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html) in Blood Runs in the Family. Where do you get "clearly planning to do something" from his expression, body language, or dialogue in that single panel? Or are you reaching back farther?
Niu is reporting the status of Azure City and Xykon, information that would only trigger the immediate reaction from Hinjo if he had an event-triggered plan on hold. I certainly remember reading that strip and thinking that Hinjo was about to march somewhere. I suppose he might have just wanted to contact Lien and O-Chul, though.

[zimmerwald1915]

Niu is reporting the status of Azure City and Xykon, information that would only trigger the immediate reaction from Hinjo if he had an event-triggered plan on hold. I certainly remember reading that strip and thinking that Hinjo was about to march somewhere. I suppose he might have just wanted to contact Lien and O-Chul, though.
We saw where he "marched," or at least the results: back to the Azurite camp to tell a cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0893.html) to send to the Order. He may have sent to O-Chul and Lien as well. But why hypothesize that he did anything else?

[Keltest]

We saw where he "marched," or at least the results: back to the Azurite camp to tell a cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0893.html) to send to the Order. He may have sent to O-Chul and Lien as well. But why hypothesize that he did anything else?

Because he is a leader who isn't inclined to sit on his butt and let important events unfold around him?

[Zonkerbl]

Took me a second...

[Kish]

I'm not quite clear on what Zimmer is now arguing. If it's, "Hinjo is focused on the Azure City refugees, does not share the same priorities as Roy Greenhilt, is not a main character and is not going to be promoted to one," I'm with him. If it's "Hinjo is cosmically insignificant and we will likely never see him again," I'm not.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm not quite clear on what Zimmer is now arguing. If it's, "Hinjo is focused on the Azure City refugees, does not share the same priorities as Roy Greenhilt, is not a main character and is not going to be promoted to one," I'm with him. If it's "Hinjo is cosmically insignificant and we will likely never see him again," I'm not.
What's the difference? If a character is neither the main character nor likely to interact with the main character ever again, why should that character appear on-panel? We never saw the CPPD Rookie or Grubwiggler after their parts in the story were over.

[Keltest]

What's the difference? If a character is neither the main character nor likely to interact with the main character ever again, why should that character appear on-panel? We never saw the CPPD Rookie or Grubwiggler after their parts in the story were over.

Because we don't know his part of the story is over, since the story isn't over. The fact that he is not a viewpoint and/or main character does not mean that he cannot take action off screen that can still affect the story.

Heck, by your argument Julio and crew shouldn't have come back at the end of the last book, because as far as we knew before then, their part in the story was over.

[Kish]

The difference is that I do not believe the Azure City refugees' part in the story is over or that Hinjo is "not likely to interact with the main character ever again"; the fact that he isn't going to suddenly abandon the refugees to come fight Xykon with the Order personally or pull an army out of his hat and mysteriously take them to Kraagor's Gate rather than to Gobbotopia doesn't change the fact that he's still an ally to the Order.

The CPPD had a lot smaller role in the story than Azure City ever did (I would, in fact, venture that the fact that you're comparing characters named Hinjo and CPPD Rookie should answer your question by itself); it's not quite as bad as "Why would we see Celia again? We never saw the displacer beasts again" but it's close. Grubwiggler died during the single story arc he existed to be a villain of.

[Jasdoif]

What's the difference? If a character is neither the main character nor likely to interact with the main character ever again, why should that character appear on-panel? We never saw the CPPD Rookie or Grubwiggler after their parts in the story were over.I think it's the "likely" part that's throwing everything off. Like Keltest mentioned, between 392 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) and 930 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html) it certainly didn't look likely for Julio to interact with Elan ever again, but it still ended up happening.

[Amphiox]

What's the difference? If a character is neither the main character nor likely to interact with the main character ever again, why should that character appear on-panel? We never saw the CPPD Rookie or Grubwiggler after their parts in the story were over.

On the other hand, Pole-arm salesmen DID reappear on-panel.

Why should a character neither main nor likely to interact with the main character every again appear on-panel?

World-building.
Inter action with secondary character who interacts with main character.
Humor.
Loose-end wrap-up in the denouement. (Just you wait, CPPD Rookie and Grubwiggler will appear again in a panel in the second last strip as part of the denouement. CPPD Rookie will be in the background in the crowd as a guest at Elan and Haley's wedding, because Elan will arrange for EVERY surviving good/neutral character in the strip to be invited to his wedding, because bit-character cameos at the big wedding in the grand finale are a narrative trope, and Grubwiggler will be in the background of a panel showing Haley returning to Greysky to visit her father, who has retaken control of the Thieve's Guild...)

There are lots of other possible reasons. A fully-fleshed out narrative is more than just the plot and the main character.

[Kish]

Grubwiggler will be in the background of a panel showing Haley returning to Greysky to visit her father, who has retaken control of the Thieve's Guild...)
DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD. :smallfurious:

[Keltest]

DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD. :smallfurious:

When was the last time that stopped anyone from doing anything in a D&D universe?

[zimmerwald1915]

We were told at the end of Don't Split the Party what Hinjo and the refugees would be doing: sending O-Chul and Lien to Kraagor's Gate, claiming the elven ruins as their living space, and keeping an ear open for news of Xykon to pass onto the Order. They have been shown doing all of those things, and have not been shown to have completed one of those things. They have not been shown doing anything else, and everything we know about them (low numbers, mid-to-low levels, still living in "camp" after most of the events of Blood Runs in the Family have taken place) suggests they can't do anything else in the short or medium term. So why should we see them again? We know everything there is to know, for story purposes, about them. Calling them a "loose end" or saying their story isn't over is stating a wish, not looking at their situation. It would be nice if all refugees managed to return to their homelands, but it is far from a given.

[Math_Mage]

We were told at the end of Don't Split the Party what Hinjo and the refugees would be doing: sending O-Chul and Lien to Kraagor's Gate, claiming the elven ruins as their living space, and keeping an ear open for news of Xykon to pass onto the Order. They have been shown doing all of those things, and have not been shown to have completed one of those things. They have not been shown doing anything else, and everything we know about them (low numbers, mid-to-low levels, still living in "camp" after most of the events of Blood Runs in the Family have taken place) suggests they can't do anything else in the short or medium term. So why should we see them again? We know everything there is to know, for story purposes, about them. Calling them a "loose end" or saying their story isn't over is stating a wish, not looking at their situation. It would be nice if all refugees managed to return to their homelands, but it is far from a given.
It's a given that resolving the Azurites' desire to return to their homeland one way or another will be part of the comic, though, because this isn't real life. Also because if there's one other place that screams "I only look like my narrative arc is over," it's Gobbotopia.

[Peelee]

And Peelee whifs on the reference! :smallbiggrin:


And Reddish Mage wiffs on the references! :smallbiggrin:

OK, what was the reference we missed? Clearly, it's not the Oracle mentioning that Belkar shouldn't fund his IRA, since both Reddish Mage and I both riffed on the "vampire fits that" argument. If the reference was you mocking those who believe in such concept, Poe's Law takes effect. Otherwise..... yes, I completely whiffed on the reference; please enlighten?

[ti'esar]

Even if the Azurite refugees are permanently settled and out of the story, I'm highly skeptical of the argument that we'll never see Gobbotopia again. (Particularly given the now-far-more-likely possibility of a mass of tendrils suddenly boiling out of its rift).

[Kish]

Zimmer, no author I know uses the method you apparently want Rich to use to decide whether a character shows up in the story again. If you seriously believe that the Sending Haley received from Hinjo is the end and resolution of Hinjo's part of the plot, well, apparently we can agree that one of the two of us is engaging in rather extreme wishful thinking.

When was the last time that stopped anyone from doing anything in a D&D universe?
Depending on how you look at it, either #914, where Nale failed to hurt Elan, or #961, where Durkon failed to warn the Order about the High Priest of Hel.

[Keltest]

Depending on how you look at it, either #914, where Nale failed to hurt Elan, or #961, where Durkon failed to warn the Order about the High Priest of Hel.

Pfft. Im sure those are only temporary inconveniences. :smallamused:

[Amphiox]

DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD. :smallfurious:

Ok, the GOLEM Grubwiggler, then.

(And if there IS a Elan-Haley wedding panel in the denouement, Hinjo will be there. In fact, he'll may well be the one officiating it. Unless he's dead. In which case we'll have to have a panel showing him dying....)

[zimmerwald1915]

Zimmer, no author I know uses the method you apparently want Rich to use to decide whether a character shows up in the story again. If you seriously believe that the Sending Haley received from Hinjo is the end and resolution of Hinjo's part of the plot, well, apparently we can agree that one of the two of us is engaging in rather extreme wishful thinking.
You seem to think I'm advocating something, when in fact I'm making a prediction.

[Keltest]

You seem to think I'm advocating something, when in fact I'm making a prediction.

Are you not advocating the idea that Hinjo and the Azurites are done for this story?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

OK, what was the reference we missed? Clearly, it's not the Oracle mentioning that Belkar shouldn't fund his IRA, since both Reddish Mage and I both riffed on the "vampire fits that" argument. If the reference was you mocking those who believe in such concept, Poe's Law takes effect. Otherwise..... yes, I completely whiffed on the reference; please enlighten?

I'm curious about this one as well, since, had I replied, I feel I would have whiffed on the reference.
...
As for the Azurites, I feel that we will see them again. They might not play as important a role as they did before (I doubt they will have a major impact on any major scene), but I feel that they will make future appearances.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Honestly, I expect to see them the next time we need something else to be happening while time passes for the Order. As also with Team Evil, the Blood-Less Revolution, etc.

[Angelalex242]

I imagine we'll see Celia again, as 'main character's girlfriend' tends to be a good way to stay relevant.

We'll see O'chul and Lein again, as soon as the Order finally gets their butts to the relevant gate.

We'll probably see Hinjo again when O'chul and Lein report back, possibly with the Order.

[Kish]

You seem to think I'm advocating something, when in fact I'm making a prediction.
And you, at least, very strongly implied that people who made a contrary prediction were--how did you put it?--"stating a wish."

I'm saying the same thing about you, that your prediction is born of an apparent desire for the story to be based on different writing principles than it is based on.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The on and only joke was pretty forced and still not even funny. Definitely one of the more pointless comics the whole series. I guess that random NPC got some plot protection, at least.

[DaggerPen]

Hence my comment that we might see O-Chul and Lien again, but we won't be following the Azurite refugees or revisiting...let's call it the site of Soon's Rift.

Soon's Buttcheeks?

Anyway, I find it likely that we'll see the Azurites again. O-Chul and Lien are almost a definite for the next Gate, of course - they're there already, and O-Chul's friendship with the MitD needs a bit more payoff, and I don't think anyone's arguing they won't be there. But as for Hinjo? I find it entirely likely that he will be seen again, whether to deal with the status of Gobbotopia in the aftermath of everything or, my personal theory, as the cavalry with some shiny new Azurite forces, equipped and raring with experience from the work of settling the abandoned Elven lands. As for Daigo and Kazumi? Well, we still need to find out Daigo's full name. If my "the cavalry arrives" bet pays off, I imagine they'll be within the forces as high-ranking officers or something.

[zimmerwald1915]

Are you not advocating the idea that Hinjo and the Azurites are done for this story?
There is a difference between the statements "this is what I believe has happened" and "this is what I believe ought to happen." For example, I think Vaarsuvius ought to be written out of the story. I think the Azurite refugees, as distinct from O-Chul and Lien, have already been written out of the story, and as such, predict that we will not be seeing them again.


And you, at least, very strongly implied that people who made a contrary prediction were--how did you put it?--"stating a wish."

I'm saying the same thing about you, that your prediction is born of an apparent desire for the story to be based on different writing principles than it is based on.
Well, yes. I think statements like "It's a given that resolving the Azurites' desire to return to their homeland one way or another will be part of the comic" is born out of a desire to see refugees not eternally dispossessed, not out of an analysis of the role the refugees played in the story.


Soon's Buttcheeks?
That is...a very silly name for the peninsula on which the city is built :smalltongue:

[Lexible]

When was the last time that stopped anyone from doing anything in a D&D universe?

:D :D :D

...or in Star Trek, the comic books or major religious texts, for that matter. :)

[Angelalex242]

There are two types of people in the world:

Those for whom death sort of ruins your day...
And those for whom death is a minor inconvenience.

Always strive to be in group two.

[Kish]

Well, yes. I think statements like "It's a given that resolving the Azurites' desire to return to their homeland one way or another will be part of the comic" is born out of a desire to see refugees not eternally dispossessed, not out of an analysis of the role the refugees played in the story.
And I think equations of Hinjo now with "CPPD Rookie" when the Order left Cliffport are born out of a desire to see Rich uphold certain political principles, which I see no indication he believes in, in his writing, not of how he's demonstrated he actually handles midrange side characters. In effect, you seem to be arguing that because you, personally, find "they get forgotten offpanel" thematically appropriate as a statement on what generally happens to refugees, you would also find it narratively satisfying for the story to simply drop everyone associated with Azure City, and see no reason to think that's not what Rich is going to do.

That said, I don't think he's going to be the cavalry for the Order either--at least not against Xykon (he might help them against a side villain like Tarquin, the way Julio and the Mechane did). Belkar said it in the pyramid: The cavalry isn't coming. I don't believe the Order will, for the rest of the comic, have the help of anyone more powerful than they are without that "help" ultimately turning out to be as barbed as Tarquin's was.

[lio45]

Depending on how you look at it, either #914, where Nale failed to hurt Elan, or #961, where Durkon failed to warn the Order about the High Priest of Hel.

I'd agree with Keltest's point that dead characters can still easily show up in the story post-death, either in the afterlife, in flashbacks, as ghosts, etc.

Eugene Greenhilt for example has been dead since before the story started, and we were not restricted to merely reading his name in other characters' speech bubbles.

And you can't say he "couldn't influence the course of the story since he was dead", because that's exactly what he did.

(Not that it changes much to the probability of us seeing Grub getting screen time again, obviously.)

[lio45]

Well, yes. I think statements like "It's a given that resolving the Azurites' desire to return to their homeland one way or another will be part of the comic" is born out of a desire to see refugees not eternally dispossessed, not out of an analysis of the role the refugees played in the story.

... yes, but the thing is, in stories, predictions born out of a desire to see good guys have a happy ending tend to be correct a LOT more often than [differing] predictions made out of a cold analysis of the situation before the ending is in sight.

[ORione]

Not to mention ressurection. Roy Greenhilt died, but he still has the largest role in the story.

[Lossoth]

Came for the Lionel Hutz. Admittedly, I Ctrl-F'd my way through the last ten pages, but still mildly dissapointed.

[orrion]

There is a difference between the statements "this is what I believe has happened" and "this is what I believe ought to happen." For example, I think Vaarsuvius ought to be written out of the story. I think the Azurite refugees, as distinct from O-Chul and Lien, have already been written out of the story, and as such, predict that we will not be seeing them again.

How have they been written out of the story? They have Elven ruins to settle in, but they were looking for someplace semi-permanent so they could regroup and plan to retake Azure City. They weren't looking for a new place to settle. If they had come to the conclusion that they couldn't retake Azure City and so they decided to settle elsewhere and start anew (or something similar that pointed to a resolution) then I could buy into your position more easily. However, there was no such stated conclusion and no acknowledged resolution.

[DaggerPen]

That is...a very silly name for the peninsula on which the city is built :smalltongue:

I think the peninsula is a bit farther north, actually.

... ahem. My jokes aside, I'll further argue that we'll see more of the refugees. There's no way we won't see more happening with Gobbotopia - that weird ending with Jirix (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) just leaves entirely too many questions to be answered. Something more is going to happen with Gobbotopia before the book's out, and given that they're currently camped out on the ruins of Azure City, I don't see the final status of Gobbotopia being resolved without some, ah, input from its former occupants.

[ti'esar]

How have they been written out of the story? They have Elven ruins to settle in, but they were looking for someplace semi-permanent so they could regroup and plan to retake Azure City. They weren't looking for a new place to settle. If they had come to the conclusion that they couldn't retake Azure City and so they decided to settle elsewhere and start anew (or something similar that pointed to a resolution) then I could buy into your position more easily. However, there was no such stated conclusion and no acknowledged resolution.

Though it is, admittedly, a pretty reasonable conclusion. The only allies they were ever able to find came to nothing and the Resistance was effortlessly crushed.

[orrion]

Though it is, admittedly, a pretty reasonable conclusion. The only allies they were ever able to find came to nothing and the Resistance was effortlessly crushed.

Yes, but they didn't say it.

Also, the guy who effortlessly crushed the Resistance and the other guy whom the potential allies feared are indisposed.

[Bird]

I think the peninsula is a bit farther north, actually.

... ahem. My jokes aside, I'll further argue that we'll see more of the refugees. There's no way we won't see more happening with Gobbotopia - that weird ending with Jirix (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) just leaves entirely too many questions to be answered. Something more is going to happen with Gobbotopia before the book's out, and given that they're currently camped out on the ruins of Azure City, I don't see the final status of Gobbotopia being resolved without some, ah, input from its former occupants.
I tend to think you're right, though it's possible that madness will come through that big old hole in the sky and not leave much left to reclaim. If that happens, the Azurites may decide they're better off where they are.

[rodneyAnonymous]

That's an interesting thought: not the humans get it (Azure City reclaimed), or the goblins get it (Gobbotopia maintained), but nobody gets it (Snarl destroys).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I tend to think you're right, though it's possible that madness will come through that big old hole in the sky and not leave much left to reclaim. If that happens, the Azurites may decide they're better off where they are.

That's an interesting thought. I imagine that would make Redcloak pretty unhappy.

[Keltest]

That's an interesting thought. I imagine that would make Redcloak pretty unhappy.

On the other hand, it would tend to undermine the "Redcloak is being unreasonable and stubborn" theme we have going on. The guy is competent to all heck, but I have yet to see any evidence that The Plan is in any way necessary now.

[orrion]

On the other hand, it would tend to undermine the "Redcloak is being unreasonable and stubborn" theme we have going on. The guy is competent to all heck, but I have yet to see any evidence that The Plan is in any way necessary now.

Redcloak managed to carve out a niche for goblins in one area of one continent, and it's not all that stable or guaranteed to last very long.

All the problems that Redcloak wanted to fix still exist. Goblins are still fodder for adventurers, they're still hated, they're still mostly evil, they still have no real place in the world except with others of their kind. The race as a whole is in the same position from a worldly and cosmic perspective, and that's what Redcloak wants to change.

[Keltest]

Redcloak managed to carve out a niche for goblins in one area of one continent, and it's not all that stable or guaranteed to last very long.

All the problems that Redcloak wanted to fix still exist. Goblins are still fodder for adventurers, they're still hated, they're still mostly evil, they still have no real place in the world except with others of their kind. The race as a whole is in the same position from a worldly and cosmic perspective, and that's what Redcloak wants to change.

If Gobbotopia works out, he will have the tools he needs to do it in such a way that doesn't involve potentially destroying the world and killing gods (which would, at the very least, not improve their relations with non-goblinoids even if it otherwise does work).

[Jasdoif]

On the other hand, it would tend to undermine the "Redcloak is being unreasonable and stubborn" theme we have going on. The guy is competent to all heck, but I have yet to see any evidence that The Plan is in any way necessary now.What if Redcloak's pursuit of the Plan is what causes Gobbotopians to wish they had paid for insurance against Acts of Snarl? If Redcloak loses what he's gained so far because of how hard he pushes for something more, it reinforces the theme.

It'd also set up an interesting parallel to Durkon's conversation with Vaarsuvius here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html).

[orrion]

If Gobbotopia works out, he will have the tools he needs to do it in such a way that doesn't involve potentially destroying the world and killing gods (which would, at the very least, not improve their relations with non-goblinoids even if it otherwise does work).

Non-goblinoids aren't supposed to know, and even if they did why would you judge a race based on what one of them did?

I don't see he how he would have the tools. How does Gobbotopia working out prevent some adventurer from killing goblins somewhere else or prevent anyone from thinking that goblins are reasonable targets?

Look at the Western Continent arc. We had lizards and humans and kobolds and evil elves probably some others I can't remember off the top of my head, but guess which race was very noticeably absent from that society in any form.

[Keltest]

Non-goblinoids aren't supposed to know, and even if they did why would you judge a race based on what one of them did?

I don't see he how he would have the tools. How does Gobbotopia working out prevent some adventurer from killing goblins somewhere else or prevent anyone from thinking that goblins are reasonable targets?

Look at the Western Continent arc. We had lizards and humans and kobolds and evil elves probably some others I can't remember off the top of my head, but guess which race was very noticeably absent from that society in any form.

Goblins, hobgoblins, ogres, dwarves (except for Durkon), gnomes, trolls, half elves, halflings except Belkar, etc...

The lack of goblins on the western continent means little as far as the story goes. And apparently humans and lizardfolk are just as reasonable targets if they give adventurers a reason to attack them, so perhaps the fact that goblins are getting killed at all has never been the point?

Right now a party can go into the wilderness and go "oh, look, goblins! time for some easy XP!" But if Gobbotopia (which has established trade with several nations and/or city-states) gets off the ground, suddenly murdering random goblins you find becomes as bad a crime as murdering random gnomes.

It may not stop the antagonism right away, but it makes it significantly more difficult to act on or spread.

[ti'esar]

Is that a challenge? Because we could add familicide and representation to the mix. It wouldn't even be hard.

...Well, no familicide just yet, but we have added "is Redcloak justified in continuing to pursue the Plan" to the list.

(Also, technically, we did see gnomes on the Western Continent.) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0710.html)

[Keltest]

...Well, no familicide just yet, but we have added "is Redcloak justified in continuing to pursue the Plan" to the list.

(Also, technically, we did see gnomes on the Western Continent.) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0710.html)

well ill be, it is a gnome! How odd. Anyway, I don't think were talking about Redcloak being justified, just whether or not they payoff from completing it would be worth the costs, both already paid and those that have yet to show up.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

On the other hand, it would tend to undermine the "Redcloak is being unreasonable and stubborn" theme we have going on. The guy is competent to all heck, but I have yet to see any evidence that The Plan is in any way necessary now.

Was the plan ever necessary? I imagine there are better ways of accomplishing Redcloak's goal than the plan, even when Redcloak didn't have Gobbotopia.

[Keltest]

Was the plan ever necessary? I imagine there are better ways of accomplishing Redcloak's goal than the plan, even when Redcloak didn't have Gobbotopia.

I think that at the time it was conceived it was one of several equally plausible ways for him to accomplish his goals. While the plan of "Lets act like civilized people instead of a race consisting entirely of bandits" could work in theory, it wouldn't happen in their life times. And whats the easiest way for an individual or small group to influence the masses? Get enough power to kill their gods of course!

Despite my sarcasm though, Redcloak would need a lot of power and/or influence to enact change on that scale no matter what plan he tried. He could never have made Gobbotopia work without the cooperation of the nation of hobgoblins, and Redcloak's position as high priest of the Dark One is clearly not enough to get every goblinoid to bow to his whim. Magical power would (ironically) be far easier to obtain at the time than social power.

[SaintRidley]

What if Redcloak's pursuit of the Plan is what causes Gobbotopians to wish they had paid for insurance against Acts of Snarl? If Redcloak loses what he's gained so far because of how hard he pushes for something more, it reinforces the theme.

It'd also set up an interesting parallel to Durkon's conversation with Vaarsuvius here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html).


If the Snarl reaches through the Gobbotopia rift, you can lay the blame directly on Redcloak for pursuing the Plan in the first place and then settling the goblinoid peoples under the watchful tendrils of the Snarl.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think that at the time it was conceived it was one of several equally plausible ways for him to accomplish his goals. While the plan of "Lets act like civilized people instead of a race consisting entirely of bandits" could work in theory, it wouldn't happen in their life times. And whats the easiest way for an individual or small group to influence the masses? Get enough power to kill their gods of course!

Despite my sarcasm though, Redcloak would need a lot of power and/or influence to enact change on that scale no matter what plan he tried. He could never have made Gobbotopia work without the cooperation of the nation of hobgoblins, and Redcloak's position as high priest of the Dark One is clearly not enough to get every goblinoid to bow to his whim. Magical power would (ironically) be far easier to obtain at the time than social power.
I think that a large point of having that scene with Right-Eye was to establish that there were ways for the goblins and humans to live together. That said, I will grant you that the Snarl plan does look more viable.

[Keltest]

I think that a large point of having that scene with Right-Eye was to establish that there were ways for the goblins and humans to live together. That said, I will grant you that the Snarl plan does look more viable.

Ill grant that in the short term, goblins living with humans could work on an individual basis. But as a species theres no possible way for Redcloak and co to get that to happen, if for no other reason than they don't have a means of contacting goblins as a species. Take the hobgoblin city for example. Redcloak had no idea they existed, but everyone within hearing distance would hate them with a passion if they conducted any sort of raiding activity. That alone would spoil attempts to get the two groups to settle down for a long, long time, even if Redcloak knew about them to tell them to quit it. No other goblins would be able to operate in the area either because of the anti-(hob)goblin bias.

[DaggerPen]

I actually always kinda thought the point of Redcloak's narrative was about getting locked into destructive cycles.

If the Dark One's story is to be believed, the goblins have been stuck in cycles of violence and poverty from the beginning - intentionally. They were created to inhabit only the worst lands in order to encourage them to raid nearby human/other player races lands and create fodder for low level adventurers to get XD from. This created a cycle of violence - desperate goblins raid settlements, adventurers wipe out goblin villages, and the goblins can't unite or crawl out because of lack of resources, in-fighting and violence and racism by player races.

The Dark One rises and tries to change things. He is assassinated, and the goblins go on to slaughter humans en masses in vengeance, raising him as a god and leading humans to strike out at goblin settlements even more in fear of it happening again. The Dark One concocts a plan to break the cycle by blackmailing the gods with the Snarl. His plan leads the Sapphire Guard to destroy goblin settlements, creating Redcloak.

Redcloak continues the Plan, allying with Xykon. It gets a bunch of goblins killed. Redcloak doubles down on the Plan to "justify" their sacrifices.

Right-Eye leaves and tries to break out of the cycle. Redcloak almost does, too. Xykon drags them both back into it. Right-Eye tries to break out by killing Xykon. Redcloak, locked into it, kills Right-Eye, believing that if he abandons the Plan now the goblin deaths will have been for nothing.

Redcloak continues the plan. More goblins die, including massive numbers of hobgoblins. Each death leads Redcloak to double down.

The cycle continues. And Redcloak, by continuing it, can come to no good.

I figure that, whatever else happens, this whole narrative ends with that cycle being broken.

So, what of Gobbotopia? It was very much a direct consequence of the cycle of violence and vengeance, with Redcloak attacking the same city whose Sapphire Guard destroyed his village. But Jirix throws a wrench into the works, as he's not yet shown to be an active part of that cycle. So the question is - does the cycle's end involve Gobbotopia flourishing? Or its destruction entirely?

Who knows, man? But I do think that this ends with a new era of peace and promise for the goblin people. And that Redcloak will have no hand in its fruition.

[Keltest]

I actually always kinda thought the point of Redcloak's narrative was about getting locked into destructive cycles.

If the Dark One's story is to be believed, the goblins have been stuck in cycles of violence and poverty from the beginning - intentionally. They were created to inhabit only the worst lands in order to encourage them to raid nearby human/other player races lands and create fodder for low level adventurers to get XD from. This created a cycle of violence - desperate goblins raid settlements, adventurers wipe out goblin villages, and the goblins can't unite or crawl out because of lack of resources, in-fighting and violence and racism by player races.

The Dark One rises and tries to change things. He is assassinated, and the goblins go on to slaughter humans en masses in vengeance, raising him as a god and leading humans to strike out at goblin settlements even more in fear of it happening again. The Dark One concocts a plan to break the cycle by blackmailing the gods with the Snarl. His plan leads the Sapphire Guard to destroy goblin settlements, creating Redcloak.

Redcloak continues the Plan, allying with Xykon. It gets a bunch of goblins killed. Redcloak doubles down on the Plan to "justify" their sacrifices.

Right-Eye leaves and tries to break out of the cycle. Redcloak almost does, too. Xykon drags them both back into it. Right-Eye tries to break out by killing Xykon. Redcloak, locked into it, kills Right-Eye, believing that if he abandons the Plan now the goblin deaths will have been for nothing.

Redcloak continues the plan. More goblins die, including massive numbers of hobgoblins. Each death leads Redcloak to double down.

The cycle continues. And Redcloak, by continuing it, can come to no good.

I figure that, whatever else happens, this whole narrative ends with that cycle being broken.

So, what of Gobbotopia? It was very much a direct consequence of the cycle of violence and vengeance, with Redcloak attacking the same city whose Sapphire Guard destroyed his village. But Jirix throws a wrench into the works, as he's not yet shown to be an active part of that cycle. So the question is - does the cycle's end involve Gobbotopia flourishing? Or its destruction entirely?

Who knows, man? But I do think that this ends with a new era of peace and promise for the goblin people. And that Redcloak will have no hand in its fruition.

Its a bit of a stretch, but might it be possible that Jirix will team up with Hinjo and the Azurites to stop Redcloak and Xykon from destroying the world and everything they worked for? He may be a hobgoblin, but that doesn't mean that he wants to see his nation, which is apparently well on its way to becoming self sustaining, destroyed for the sake of justifying Redcloak's decisions. I have a hard time envisioning Rich destroying everything the goblins have now (ie kicking them out of gobbotopia) but the Azurites wouldn't let them sit there in peace unless something happened to convince Hinjo and co to let them stay there.

[ti'esar]

Its a bit of a stretch, but might it be possible that Jirix will team up with Hinjo and the Azurites to stop Redcloak and Xykon from destroying the world and everything they worked for? He may be a hobgoblin, but that doesn't mean that he wants to see his nation, which is apparently well on its way to becoming self sustaining, destroyed for the sake of justifying Redcloak's decisions. I have a hard time envisioning Rich destroying everything the goblins have now (ie kicking them out of gobbotopia) but the Azurites wouldn't let them sit there in peace unless something happened to convince Hinjo and co to let them stay there.

I think that's at least a possibility, and certainly I agree with DaggerPen that something is likely to happen before the end to break the cycle of revenge, at least in a small way. OOTS isn't going to end with the resolution of every problem in its world, but this one is central enough to it that I fully expect something to happen to resolve it.

[Xelbiuj]

Interesting ideas but solving the cycle of violence for the Goblin race doesn't really solve anything. They aren't really any special, at least from the Dark One's claim that they were created solely as xp fodder. What about owlbears, hydra, beholders, lycans, dragons, or any of the hundreds of fictional creatures created for the same reason?

[Keltest]

Interesting ideas but solving the cycle of violence for the Goblin race doesn't really solve anything. They aren't really any special, at least from the Dark One's claim that they were created solely as xp fodder. What about owlbears, hydra, beholders, lycans, dragons, or any of the hundreds of fictional creatures created for the same reason?
Most creatures that low level are not particularly intelligent. Sure, dragons get beaten up... by ultra-powerful wizards who scoff at the laws of nature, and fighters who can survive having all their internal organs removed at the end of a dinosaur's horn.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Its a bit of a stretch, but might it be possible that Jirix will team up with Hinjo and the Azurites to stop Redcloak and Xykon from destroying the world and everything they worked for? He may be a hobgoblin, but that doesn't mean that he wants to see his nation, which is apparently well on its way to becoming self sustaining, destroyed for the sake of justifying Redcloak's decisions. I have a hard time envisioning Rich destroying everything the goblins have now (ie kicking them out of gobbotopia) but the Azurites wouldn't let them sit there in peace unless something happened to convince Hinjo and co to let them stay there.

This would be interesting. Maybe the Azurites and Goblinoids could put aside their differences and focus on defeating a common enemy. I wonder if the Azurites could destroy the Mantle and therefore have no need to slaughter the goblins any more.

[Keltest]

This would be interesting. Maybe the Azurites and Goblinoids could put aside their differences and focus on defeating a common enemy. I wonder if the Azurites could destroy the Mantle and therefore have no need to slaughter the goblins any more.

Maybe they have a handy volcano available on the island. Although one wonders if the Dark One would continue to advocate the Plan if Gobbotopia was able to achieve his goals without risking all of reality.

[Jasdoif]

Maybe they have a handy volcano available on the island. Although one wonders if the Dark One would continue to advocate the Plan if Gobbotopia was able to achieve his goals without risking all of reality.I find myself wondering more if Gobbotopia is capable of achieving the Dark One's goals. Or more specifically, if the goals Redcloak says are the Dark One's are wholly accurate and without omission. Blackmailing concessions out of deities is quite versatile in terms of what it could accomplish, after all; if the Dark One has other goals (perhaps establishing the superiority of goblinoid races over other humanoids), the Plan would aid him with those.

[Kish]

I wonder if the Azurites could destroy the Mantle and therefore have no need to slaughter the goblins any more.
While the status of an inherent Azurite need to slaughter goblins is debatable, if it exists, it certainly doesn't hinge on the existence of the Crimson Mantle. Proto-Redcloak was prepared to abandon the Plan when Xykon forced him to return to it, Crimson Mantle and all, the Dark One came up with the Plan before he created the Crimson Mantle to facilitate it and is unlikely to give it up just because the Mantle was destroyed, and Azure City has "a decades long history of paladins exterminating entire villages of goblins and other humanoids at the behest of their gods."

[Grey Watcher]

OK, am I the only one that interpreted the prayer as having been deliberately constructed to be misheard in just that way? Yes, it's clunky and awkward and weird, but those sounds make a lot more sense as Roy hears them than as the High Priest of Hel "intends" them.

Also, why would Roy be listening for Hel's name in particular? He has no way of knowing she's involved. Heck, he might not even be aware of her existence, given that he's not especially interested in religion and, until a week or so ago, she apparently had no worshippers on the planet. If anything, given what Roy knows at this point, he's probably listening for Nergal's name or, failing that, one of the better known bad guys in the Northern pantheon, like Loki (and pulling the proverbial wool over everyone's eyes is right up Loki's alley).

I apologize if, in my initial scanning of this thread, I actually did miss someone making these exact points.

[Boogastreehouse]

*


...if the Dark One has other goals (perhaps establishing the superiority of goblinoid races over other humanoids), the Plan would aid him with those.

I would hope that such a revelation would be the final straw for Redcloak. In Start of Darkness he said... ...he said that all he wants is a level playing field. "If we get that and still fail to build utopia, then we deserve whatever Fate bestows upon us."

More likely, I suspect, this would be yet another opportunity for Redcloak to betray his ideals for the sake of the plan. And for the sake of not having to admit that all the sacrifices that he made were in vain.

I suspect the Dark One will want to use the Snarl to murder all of the other gods, and then subjugate and/or murder all of the non-Goblinoid races. I suspect that Redcloak wouldn't like engaging in a campaign of genocide that was so reminiscent of the one carried out by the Sapphire Guard. If you fight monsters, you become a monster, and all that.

*

[Peelee]

OK, am I the only one that interpreted the prayer as having been deliberately constructed to be misheard in just that way? Yes, it's clunky and awkward and weird, but those sounds make a lot more sense as Roy hears them than as the High Priest of Hel "intends" them.

Also, why would Roy be listening for Hel's name in particular? He has no way of knowing she's involved. Heck, he might not even be aware of her existence, given that he's not especially interested in religion and, until a week or so ago, she apparently had no worshippers on the planet. If anything, given what Roy knows at this point, he's probably listening for Nergal's name or, failing that, one of the better known bad guys in the Northern pantheon, like Loki (and pulling the proverbial wool over everyone's eyes is right up Loki's alley).

I apologize if, in my initial scanning of this thread, I actually did miss someone making these exact points.

Others have theorized that as well, but they've been pretty well buried. I also buy into that school of thought, and I like your idea on why Roy didn't catch on to the "hell/hel" bit.

[DaggerPen]

*



I would hope that such a revelation would be the final straw for Redcloak. In Start of Darkness he said... ...he said that all he wants is a level playing field. "If we get that and still fail to build utopia, then we deserve whatever Fate bestows upon us."

More likely, I suspect, this would be yet another opportunity for Redcloak to betray his ideals for the sake of the plan. And for the sake of not having to admit that all the sacrifices that he made were in vain.

I suspect the Dark One will want to use the Snarl to murder all of the other gods, and then subjugate and/or murder all of the non-Goblinoid races. I suspect that Redcloak wouldn't like engaging in a campaign of genocide that was so reminiscent of the one carried out by the Sapphire Guard. If you fight monsters, you become a monster, and all that.

*

Given the rampant human slavery in Gobbotopia, it's debatable at best. It's possible that Redcloak just has a particular vitriol for the Azurites for killing his family and would come to his senses when faced with the prospect of going that far (despite his "I hate all humans equally" gag, he did eventually shy off of potentially destroying the souls of the Azurite hostages during the O-Chul ordeal), but given his long history of betraying his ideals for the Plan combined with the fact that he's always been willing to risk cosmic annihilation for a chance the Plan will work, I see him probably going for it at this point.

(For the record, I actually really like Redcloak. He's a great tragic villain, and I don't even usually go for the "well-intentioned extremist becomes what he fights" trope.)

[Keltest]

Given the rampant human slavery in Gobbotopia, it's debatable at best. It's possible that Redcloak just has a particular vitriol for the Azurites for killing his family and would come to his senses when faced with the prospect of going that far (despite his "I hate all humans equally" gag, he did eventually shy off of potentially destroying the souls of the Azurite hostages during the O-Chul ordeal), but given his long history of betraying his ideals for the Plan combined with the fact that he's always been willing to risk cosmic annihilation for a chance the Plan will work, I see him probably going for it at this point.

(For the record, I actually really like Redcloak. He's a great tragic villain, and I don't even usually go for the "well-intentioned extremist becomes what he fights" trope.)

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, Redcloak did have a point when he said that a majority of the negative side effects of the Plan (like risking the world's destruction in order to contain the snarl) is the result of the good guys coming in and indiscriminately wrecking things. Certainly unleashing the snarl would do that as well, but ive seen no indication that the Dark One actually has any means of directing it at all, so I suspect that part of the Plan relies a great deal on the Dark One's ability to bluff the other gods into doing what he says, rather than actually opening a gate.

[The Vagabond]

Dammit, why are you screwing me with like that!? Now you're just screwing with us, aren't you!
...
Alright, I admit, it's hilarious.

[ti'esar]

I find myself wondering more if Gobbotopia is capable of achieving the Dark One's goals. Or more specifically, if the goals Redcloak says are the Dark One's are wholly accurate and without omission. Blackmailing concessions out of deities is quite versatile in terms of what it could accomplish, after all; if the Dark One has other goals (perhaps establishing the superiority of goblinoid races over other humanoids), the Plan would aid him with those.

I'm almost certain this is the case. I think any attempt to argue that the Dark One holds more moderate views then Redcloak is silly, and there's definitely strong evidence to suggest that Redcloak would prefer goblin supremacy to goblin equality.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Interesting ideas but solving the cycle of violence for the Goblin race doesn't really solve anything. They aren't really any special, at least from the Dark One's claim that they were created solely as xp fodder. What about owlbears, hydra, beholders, lycans, dragons, or any of the hundreds of fictional creatures created for the same reason?

Owlbears don't have a patron deity.

[ti'esar]

Owlbears don't have a patron deity.

Probably more importantly, they also have an INT of 2.

[DaggerPen]

Probably more importantly, they also have an INT of 2.

Yes, but the real question is, will the poor fruit flies be okay? :smalltongue:

[BannedInSchool]

probably more importantly, they also have an int of 2.

end the hatred!!!

[Kilo24]

*



I would hope that such a revelation would be the final straw for Redcloak. In Start of Darkness he said... ...he said that all he wants is a level playing field. "If we get that and still fail to build utopia, then we deserve whatever Fate bestows upon us."

More likely, I suspect, this would be yet another opportunity for Redcloak to betray his ideals for the sake of the plan. And for the sake of not having to admit that all the sacrifices that he made were in vain.

I suspect the Dark One will want to use the Snarl to murder all of the other gods, and then subjugate and/or murder all of the non-Goblinoid races. I suspect that Redcloak wouldn't like engaging in a campaign of genocide that was so reminiscent of the one carried out by the Sapphire Guard. If you fight monsters, you become a monster, and all that.

*


There are many different ways to "level" a playing field. It may be just that every race gets access to similar resources - or it may be that the other races are forced to pay reparations as well to make up for the centuries of oppression, or face justice for their crimes, or be subjugated for an equal period of time in a similar manner to the goblinoid races to make it "fair". Chances are, any side is going to believe in the definition of "level" that benefits them most (I'd imagine that some non-goblinoids would currently claim that the goblinoids did have relatively equal access to resources, they just didn't use them). Even if Team Evil wins, the entire world is at the Dark One's mercy, and Redcloak is making decisions that clearly favor goblinoids over ever other race, he will have many ways to rationalize away the moral issues of those decisions (perhaps even up to the point of justifying an uncomfortably similar campaign of genocide). It may also be that he is initially in favor of a more moderate approach but gets pressured into those decisions (perhaps by his god, perhaps by Xykon) and ends up rationalizing them later as being for the greater good.

Even though he probably does legitimately want a fair playing field for all races, that still leaves a lot of ethical wiggle room. And chances are that there's a lot more to the Dark One's rise to power and long-term motivations than the simple pro-goblinoid story his clergy repeat; we still haven't heard the other gods' side of the story. Redcloak may very well indeed be left trying to justify the mass slaughter of gods and/or non-goblinoids.

[Jay R]

Owlbears don't have a patron deity.

Are you sure? The goblins didn't have one until the Dark One had his apotheosis.

[Keltest]

Are you sure? The goblins didn't have one until the Dark One had his apotheosis.

due to their 2 intelligence, the only way they would have a patron deity is if they fall into a broader domain, perhaps over animals or the creations of wizards who have had too much to drink.

[brian 333]

One should also consider that Redcloak may well be an unwilling accomplice. The cloak confers knowledge the Dark One wishes its wearer to know, but the wearer may not be compelled to obedience.

I think, given Redcloak's long-standing tendency to play both sides against the middle, that he may well be doing what he can to skew the results away from disaster. In this case he could be simply using The Dark One as he's been using Xykon to gain an outcome that he desires.

[Tova]

That last panel would have to be about the most contrived thing I've read in this comic.

[Synesthesy]

There are many different ways to "level" a playing field. It may be just that every race gets access to similar resources - or it may be that the other races are forced to pay reparations as well to make up for the centuries of oppression, or face justice for their crimes, or be subjugated for an equal period of time in a similar manner to the goblinoid races to make it "fair". Chances are, any side is going to believe in the definition of "level" that benefits them most (I'd imagine that some non-goblinoids would currently claim that the goblinoids did have relatively equal access to resources, they just didn't use them). Even if Team Evil wins, the entire world is at the Dark One's mercy, and Redcloak is making decisions that clearly favor goblinoids over ever other race, he will have many ways to rationalize away the moral issues of those decisions (perhaps even up to the point of justifying an uncomfortably similar campaign of genocide). It may also be that he is initially in favor of a more moderate approach but gets pressured into those decisions (perhaps by his god, perhaps by Xykon) and ends up rationalizing them later as being for the greater good.

Even though he probably does legitimately want a fair playing field for all races, that still leaves a lot of ethical wiggle room. And chances are that there's a lot more to the Dark One's rise to power and long-term motivations than the simple pro-goblinoid story his clergy repeat; we still haven't heard the other gods' side of the story. Redcloak may very well indeed be left trying to justify the mass slaughter of gods and/or non-goblinoids.


I have always thought that the "levelling" was about make goblins a PC race, like human dwarf etc. So goblins would have the same resources as PC's standard races. How it would work, I don't know.

In SoD, the thing that really gets the Dark One mad is understanding that goblins could not be PCs (exept with bad rules), so goblins are just "fresh XP", and not someone who should earn that XP

[factotum]

One slight problem with that theory:


Even fully-oppressed goblins are capable of having class levels--Redcloak was a cleric long before he gained the Scarlet Mantle, and his brother was a Rogue throughout SoD.

[Kish]

THOSE RULES ARE CRAP AND YOU KNOW It.

[Mr_Scruffy_Kilz]

The particular sentence sounds almost identical in Durkon's accent.

My question is: was Durkula chanting in private using Durkon's dwarven accent?
I see a fail here.

If he's chanting an awkwardly phrased chant for the express purpose of fooling any eavesdroppers, then of course he will use Durkon's accent.

But he wasn't using an accent. There was a 'T' on won't... accent would have been won' or wouldnae. And No would have been nay.

------------------------------------

As for those talking about breathing... I can say and/or chant the words in either version of phrasing three times in one breath, cadence based on words still causes them to not sound the same. Even tried switching cadence mid chant and its is still blatantly obvious... The only way this could work is if you weren't hearing it and were specifically reading... oh, wait, no, that doesn't work either. Even dropping all punctuation from reading still requires No and Know to be spelled the same, which they aren't, but saying it requires a cadence that forces it one way or the other. No matter how you parse it, it is beyond forced. There is no valid way to make this work. Everyone arguing that Roy could have misheard needs to simply say one of the following:

"I want to be contrary and troll, so I'm going to argue that something anyone with a voice can test is wrong so I can just make a huge argument."

or

"There is no way Roy could have misheard. The only explanation is Roy is so in denial that no matter what he heard, he was going to make himself believe he heard something that absolved Durkula. Anyone else hearing it would immediately stake Durkula for being an evil monster."

There is no point arguing this. The punchline was forced, the words don't work right in any way to get both forms audible, and the gaping fact that either the accent is present and distinguishes the words or the accent is not present and reveals it isn't Durkon chanting only further makes this scenario an issue. And that doesn't even take into question that this only even remotely looks like it might work in certain accents of English, since others have inflection differently on those words, and in other languages the words with the same meanings don't even sound similar (wissen or kennen or verstehan vs nicht or nine; saber or conocer or pensar vs no; sti vs nu... seriously, Welsh has so many variations of know that it is insane...). This goes way beyond inflection... this implies that Common(English?), spoken with a Dwarven (Welsh?) accent, of one phrasing of 5 words will sound identical to Common spoken with Dwarven Accent of a 3 of those words with 2 other words subsisted in that are only slightly similar sounding in a Common accent... or why someone with a thick Brogue suddenly has none.

[Keltest]

But he wasn't using an accent. There was a 'T' on won't... accent would have been won' or wouldnae. And No would have been nay.

Durkon is very back and forth, but he has used contractions normally in the past, and will likely continue to do so in the future.

------------------------------------


As for those talking about breathing... I can say and/or chant the words in either version of phrasing three times in one breath, cadence based on words still causes them to not sound the same. Even tried switching cadence mid chant and its is still blatantly obvious... The only way this could work is if you weren't hearing it and were specifically reading... oh, wait, no, that doesn't work either. Even dropping all punctuation from reading still requires No and Know to be spelled the same, which they aren't, but saying it requires a cadence that forces it one way or the other. No matter how you parse it, it is beyond forced. There is no valid way to make this work. Everyone arguing that Roy could have misheard needs to simply say one of the following:

"I want to be contrary and troll, so I'm going to argue that something anyone with a voice can test is wrong so I can just make a huge argument."

or

"There is no way Roy could have misheard. The only explanation is Roy is so in denial that no matter what he heard, he was going to make himself believe he heard something that absolved Durkula. Anyone else hearing it would immediately stake Durkula for being an evil monster." Roy is listening through a door. Whether or not you can understand it when YOU say it, try listening through a door on someone speaking softly and tell me you can understand every word that's being said. I agree the punchline is forced, but dismissing the people who disagree as wrong based on an argument that pretty much ignores their own does not make your point.


There is no point arguing this. The punchline was forced, the words don't work right in any way to get both forms audible, and the gaping fact that either the accent is present and distinguishes the words or the accent is not present and reveals it isn't Durkon chanting only further makes this scenario an issue. And that doesn't even take into question that this only even remotely looks like it might work in certain accents of English, since others have inflection differently on those words, and in other languages the words with the same meanings don't even sound similar (wissen or kennen or verstehan vs nicht or nine; saber or conocer or pensar vs no; sti vs nu... seriously, Welsh has so many variations of know that it is insane...). This goes way beyond inflection... this implies that Common(English?), spoken with a Dwarven (Welsh?) accent, of one phrasing of 5 words will sound identical to Common spoken with Dwarven Accent of a 3 of those words with 2 other words subsisted in that are only slightly similar sounding in a Common accent... or why someone with a thick Brogue suddenly has none.

Repeat after me. Listening. Through. A. Door. The question is not "could Roy have misunderstood those words if spoken normally, either by Durkon or someone with no accent", its whether or not the door could have muddled a chant enough that Roy would not be able to hear it clearly. And frankly, the answer is that yes it could have.

[Math_Mage]

The joke is pretty self-conscious about how forced it is. Hence the additional joke about the Thor comic book.

[Snails]

It would be very easy to mishear particular words. But Roy does not exactly mishear any particular word.

What Roy mishears is the phrasing, which is approximately impossible to do.

Actually try to read Durkula's text out loud, and see how hard it is to make it come out like what Roy hears. It is not easy.

So, I am in the camp that says the joke is forced. It it what it is, and a minor issue at that.

[brian 333]

Say it in a monotone without inflection or cadence, sort of the way the "Om mani padme hum" chant of the TV Buddhists is said.

Read it as, "go Hel know Thor won't go Hel know Thor won't go Hel know Thor won't..."

[Kish]

Now try simultaneously doing that, putting a exclamation point on the word "Hel," and saying the whole phrase with a big grin on your face.

(No, I don't truly understand why anyone cares very much, though I note the irony that the "Roy is suspicious and has his suspicions quelled" strip has, for some people, become the "Roy is being willfully deluded and has evidence shoved in front of his nose" strip.)

[Tragak]

Now try simultaneously doing that, putting a exclamation point on the word "Hel," and saying the whole phrase with a big grin on your face.

(No, I don't truly understand why anyone cares very much, though I note the irony that the "Roy is suspicious and has his suspicions quelled" strip has, for some people, become the "Roy is being willfully deluded and has evidence shoved in front of his nose" strip.) Maybe he just failed a Listen check. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) Does that help?

[Snails]

Say it in a monotone without inflection or cadence, sort of the way the "Om mani padme hum" chant of the TV Buddhists is said.

Read it as, "go Hel know Thor won't go Hel know Thor won't go Hel know Thor won't..."

The medium is the medium. We know Durkula did not say the above because that is not a reasonable interpretation of the final panel.

That is why the "windy" vs. "windy" joke was quite elegant, and this would not be.

Fact is, this joke here is a bit cheesy. Not saying it stinks. Not intending to complain. But it works in moving the characters forward and setting the table for the real developments -- thus I am satisfied enough. It just ain't going to make my list of personal favorite 800 or 900 strips, and I suspect that is a monumental disappointment the Giant will manage to get over eventually.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Durkon is very back and forth, but he has used contractions normally in the past, and will likely continue to do so in the future.

Definitely agree here, and I don't see how anyone could argue different.

As for the cadence, I think that Roy heard what the accenting that the High Priest of Hel had in the last panel, but concluded that he was saying something different since the real chant doesn't make all that much sense. Trying to say that only your explanation of what's going on in the strip is right, and everyone else is either trolling or plain wrong borders on breaking forum rules and is pretty ignorant of the flaws in your own argument.

I also agree with Kish's point about the irony here.

[Bulldog Psion]

Say it in a monotone without inflection or cadence, sort of the way the "Om mani padme hum" chant of the TV Buddhists is said.

Read it as, "go Hel know Thor won't go Hel know Thor won't go Hel know Thor won't..."

This is my "personal canon" solution, too. If it's said as a monotone drone, you can put the words together any old how. In that case, the punctuation is there only to show us what Durk Malackssen means, not the way he's actually inflecting it.

It works fine like that.

[Peelee]

Everyone arguing that Roy could have misheard needs to simply say one of the following:

"I want to be contrary and troll, so I'm going to argue that something anyone with a voice can test is wrong so I can just make a huge argument."


Windy Canyon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html) Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Accept that this Kind of Thing can Happen in this Strip.


There is no point arguing this.

I agree. Why you continue to do so confuses me. I mean, seriously, will anything short of the Giant himself saying, "Roy misheard," convince you otherwise? Because if not, then you're not debating. You're berating.