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Talakeal
2014-08-29, 10:05 PM
Ok, so one of the players in my game has serious anxiety issues about making decisions. Something as simple as whether to go left or right or how much to power attack for will leave her stumped for minutes on end. If someone rushes her or (god forbid) she makes the wrong decision in retrospect, she breaks down, either sullenly withdrawing from the game or throwing a fit and screaming, crying, or throwing dice.

For years I have been more or less unaware of what was setting her off, but during our last session she was scouting and when I asked whether she was going to continue on ahead or report back to the party. She immediately asked the rest of the group what to do, and the rest of the party said they weren't their and she would have to decide on her own. She then broke down crying and said she hates playing games where she has to make decisions and wishes she could stick to video games where other people do all the decision making for her.

Thinking back to all of the times she has broken down during the game (and those of you who follow my threads know breakdowns happen frequently at my table) they all do seem to go back to her making a wrong decision or simply being paralyzed and unable to make a decision period.

Aside from not gaming with her (which isn't really feasible do to player dynamics), does how can I minimize the need for her to make decisions at the table?

bjoern
2014-08-29, 10:18 PM
This is defiantely an OOC issue. I'm guessing that this is a problem for her in day to day life also. If that is the case , have her see a doctor. I'm sure there is some medication which can alleviate the anxiety and help her enjoy things without the panic .

LibraryOgre
2014-08-29, 10:23 PM
Ugh, this is a rough one. I'm going to fall back on "Problem player rule #1: Talk to the player, find out what's going on."

She probably knows about this. She likely knows that it's a problem, and that it IS a problem is probably causing her even more anxiety. When you can talk to her out of game, ask her about it and ask her if there's anything you can do to help her... she may well have coping strategies that she's used to, but hasn't been able to pull off in game.

One thing it sounds like you're doing is not to remove choices from her, but instead present her with a more limited slate of options... give her A, B, or C, not A-Z and a couple of different numbers as a range of choices. The smaller range of choices can make things easier, and build confidence over time.

Slipperychicken
2014-08-29, 10:47 PM
1. Seconding talking to her about it. Also, take her concerns seriously.

2. I don't see anything seriously wrong with asking other players for advice if not doing so brings her to tears. Maybe you guys could say her PC is consulting her "inner wisdom" when she asks other players?

3. You could also ask her about giving her a benevolent "guardian angel" (or "spirit compass" or "wise ancestor spirit" or "divine inspiration") or some metaphysical/spiritual thing like that to help guide her choices. She can ask it for advice at any time (and it will answer to the best of its ability), and when she (or her PC) feels overwhelmed by the choices before her, she can let this entity take control of her actions. It usually takes her the right way, using her own stats without adjustment. She can resume her own control at any time, with no check or action required. It's also (Ex), so it works in an AMF. OOC this can be you or another player controlling her character for a time, roleplaying as a benevolent spirit in her body, whose top priority is making the right decisions for her. You can even give the spirit some flavor and backstory to make it seem less contrived.

Averis Vol
2014-08-29, 10:59 PM
Talk with her out of character and tell her not to leave the party anymore. If she's going to act this way, she shouldn't be allowed to do things alone. I'm sorry, but this is ludicrous to bring into a light hearted gaming environment.

Possibly a less "real" answer, sit her down and ask what her dig is? there is no rational reason why she should be acting this way with people she's apparently friends with. Ask her to either opt out of the game, because she's being a drama queen and actively doing nothing about it (theres no way she doesn't know she's doing it) or as Bjoern said, urge her to go see a doctor, if she can't make little decisions while playing a game with zero consequence of failure she obviously can't even handle putting in her lunch order (would you like cheese on that?) let alone make any real life choices.

The only in game options you have are basically delaying a ticking time bomb. You can stop making her make decisions, but that will only work for so long. The best you can hope for is that she takes your talk seriously and finds help.

nedz
2014-08-30, 05:16 AM
Playing games is about making decisions, so there is no real hope here on that score.

Your player has some kind of psychological problem which we are not qualified to resolve.

Talking to the player might help, but it sounds like she needs help from outside your gaming circle.

Sorry for being so negative, but this is outside the scope of what we can do.

Engine
2014-08-30, 06:46 AM
I'm not sure how comfortable I would be having such a person at the table.
Apart from advising her to seek professional help, I would ask her to leave the game.

AMFV
2014-08-30, 07:30 AM
Ok, so one of the players in my game has serious anxiety issues about making decisions. Something as simple as whether to go left or right or how much to power attack for will leave her stumped for minutes on end. If someone rushes her or (god forbid) she makes the wrong decision in retrospect, she breaks down, either sullenly withdrawing from the game or throwing a fit and screaming, crying, or throwing dice.

My emphasis. Depending on how accurate a description this is, this is very serious behavior. Well past what you have any social obligation to tolerate. Since I don't know the person in question, I can't say for certain how much of it is social manipulation, or how much of it is severe mental issues. But violent lashing out like that, that's not really typical of only anxiety, that's a very severe issue. Normally I wouldn't recommend that somebody who is not a close friend advise somebody to seek counseling, but in this case... that'd be advisable I think.

If you really do feel the need to game with her, try breaking things down into a much smaller scale. How much to power attack for, for example, shouldn't even be a question, you can completely determine the optimal amount using a table. Try to make most decisions like that, to where there is such a clear best decision that there is no issue.



For years I have been more or less unaware of what was setting her off, but during our last session she was scouting and when I asked whether she was going to continue on ahead or report back to the party. She immediately asked the rest of the group what to do, and the rest of the party said they weren't their and she would have to decide on her own. She then broke down crying and said she hates playing games where she has to make decisions and wishes she could stick to video games where other people do all the decision making for her.

She certainly could stick to video games, and it sounds like she might just not really enjoy roleplaying games. I mean you mention that you can't stop playing with her because of group dynamics. Which suggests to me that there is a relationship between her and somebody else of one type or another, is it possible that she doesn't want to play and is being "encouraged" in the same way that you are being encouraged to retain her?

In any case if you are determined to keep her, you could definitely do something like allowing her to roll her mental stats. Provided that this is some d20 variant (I make that assumption based on the Power Attack Comment earlier). You could allow her to roll Wisdom to gain some kind of "gut feeling" or intelligence to have some kind of "insight", then give her hints as to what you think the correct course of action.



Thinking back to all of the times she has broken down during the game (and those of you who follow my threads know breakdowns happen frequently at my table) they all do seem to go back to her making a wrong decision or simply being paralyzed and unable to make a decision period.

Well there's not really a way to remove all decisions. Is it possible to have her be an observer, ergo she watches the games, she may get to roll dice, but not actually participate as a player? I mean it sounds like she isn't having any fun.



Aside from not gaming with her (which isn't really feasible do to player dynamics), does how can I minimize the need for her to make decisions at the table?

I don't know, I think that an adult throwing what is essentially a literal temper tantrum wouldn't be something I would be willing to stand for. I'm not a therapist, and expecting me to act as such in a social setting is really, really unconscionably rude. Part of what having a mental issue involves is the fact that you don't get absolved for all of the actions you take while in a bad mood, now people might accept it as a mitigating factor. Like if she occasionally got snippy, or agitated. But screaming, throwing things, depending on what throwing a fit involves... that's beyond the pale, absolutely unacceptable behavior for an adult who is not hospitalized.

Ettina
2014-08-30, 08:12 AM
My emphasis. Depending on how accurate a description this is, this is very serious behavior. Well past what you have any social obligation to tolerate. Since I don't know the person in question, I can't say for certain how much of it is social manipulation, or how much of it is severe mental issues. But violent lashing out like that, that's not really typical of only anxiety, that's a very severe issue. Normally I wouldn't recommend that somebody who is not a close friend advise somebody to seek counseling, but in this case... that'd be advisable I think.

I think you're underestimating the impact anxiety can have. I've certainly seen people whose only mental health issue is an anxiety disorder end up crying, screaming and throwing things as a result. An anxiety disorder isn't just feeling nervous - most anxiety disorders involve feeling all-out terror when exposed to a certain trigger.

My advice for the OP is to talk with her privately about the issue. Don't phrase it as you not liking this behavior, but as you being concerned about her well-being. Ask her if she has trouble making decisions in areas other than games (my guess is she probably does), and if she's considered getting psychological help for this problem. Also, you may want to check into whether she actually wants to play D&D or is feeling pressured into playing it.

If she doesn't really want to play D&D, it's better that you play a person short than have someone play who isn't enjoying themselves. If her character is essential to the party, you could either have yourself or another player take over the character (or a newly-introduced character with the same qualities, if she's not OK with someone else playing her character), or you could nerf the enemies or buff the other players so they can manage without her.

If she does want to play, but is having trouble coping, you can propose having a team meeting to discuss solutions so she can play without triggering her anxiety. Maybe, as the other poster suggested, you could use mental stat rolls to decide on what sort of hints to give her to help her decide. Or maybe have it that she can consult the other players OOC even if her character is alone, or have her character avoid being alone. Or, if everyone agrees, you could have it that she can request a redo if a decision turned out badly for her - in which case, you could either retroactively claim she did the other decision and alter stuff accordingly, or just put everyone back before she made that decision and replay it from then. (Don't give her special rules, though. If you house-rule any changes to the rules for her, they can be invoked by any player in this game. That way it's less likely to cause resentment.)

While you're discussing this, remember to be sympathetic. She probably hates this problem a lot more than anyone else does - after all, she's the one getting upset. If she could chose not to feel this way, she'd probably do it in a heartbeat.

Kalmageddon
2014-08-30, 08:21 AM
Playing games is about making decisions, so there is no real hope here on that score.

Your player has some kind of psychological problem which we are not qualified to resolve.

Talking to the player might help, but it sounds like she needs help from outside your gaming circle.

Sorry for being so negative, but this is outside the scope of what we can do.

Yes, this.
If she doesn't want to or can't make decisions she can't have a Player Character. She would at best interpreting an NPC.
If you really think that having this person at the gaming table is something you want, why don't you suggest exactly this? That she simply helps you, the GM, with the NPCs. She could provide a bit of flavour here and there all without making any decisions since all she has to do is dialogues, which presumeably she's ok with, otherwise I can't even see how she got past character creation.

Edit: also, out of curiosity, what kind of video games is she thinking of exactly? Because as far as I know, any videogame has choices. Actually, anything a person can actively do has choices. I mean, if you can interact with the media, you are making a choice, otherwise you are just watching a movie or doing some other passive activity.

Studoku
2014-08-30, 09:53 AM
Aside from not gaming with her (which isn't really feasible do to player dynamics), does how can I minimize the need for her to make decisions at the table?
Why isn't this feasible? Are you that short on players?

Jay R
2014-08-30, 10:15 AM
The goal is to make the game fun for all players.
Making decisions isn't fun for her.
So don't make her make decisions.

It's that straightforward.

Let another player advise her, or have the DM make the clear decisions.

Assume P2 is the afflicted player.

DM: P1, it's your initiative. What do you do?
P1: I move over to this square and cause a flank attack on the first ogre. (Rolls dice) I do 10 points of damage.
DM. OK. P2, it's your move. You now have a flank attack on that ogre. So you power attack.
etc.

This moves the game along while everyone has fun. Everyone doesn't have to play the same way. Everyone has to have fun.

Segev
2014-08-30, 10:36 AM
This is definitely something to talk to her about.

I would also speak privately to whoever is the source of the "social dynamic" that makes playing with this girl mandatory. Not to talk them into ditching her, but to see if they know what's going on.

Finally, from a game-problem-solving perspective, you could have her play a cleric or diviner. Recommend she take Augury as a spell, and use it whenever she feels indecisive. Narrow her options to "A or B," and let her use Augury.

The other thing to do is, for a little while, present her with choices where you know that all outcomes are positive. Present the outcomes as positive as they come up. The goal here is to give her some confidence that her choices are likely to result in good things.

When you do have negatives occur, have it happen because she distrusted her instincts and either refused to act or indecisively changed her mind/went with what somebody else told her. Make it as clear as possible that her first instinct would have had things go swimmingly.

The hardest part will be when you have to pull this back, and let her make mistakes again. But hopefully, you can do this subtly enough that she'll develop some confidence, and the first few setbacks will be minor enough that she can recover from them with another choice that's very clear (but still requires some decision from her).

But again, this is something to discuss with her, and with whatever friends of hers make it mandatory to play with her. Together or separately. Only after being sure that there isn't something deeper that needs handling should you try this clandestine campaign of Pavolovian confidence-boosting.

cobaltstarfire
2014-08-30, 12:16 PM
The other thing to do is, for a little while, present her with choices where you know that all outcomes are positive. Present the outcomes as positive as they come up. The goal here is to give her some confidence that her choices are likely to result in good things.

This right here is a good way to start.

Everyone is different, but I can say in my personal experience (regarding anxiety) you have to take it slow and work your way up through even the tiniest things. You can't just toss someone into the pool so to speak when they have anxiety because it's likely to just make their anxiety even worse.

Ask her how she feels about decision making before you make her do it too. Sometimes you just really have to hold someones hand when they're going through that kind of thing.


I'd also talk to her about it in general of course.... If you suggest she see a councilor and she decides to, just know, if she has to be referred to a psychiatrist for medication she may become more unstable until they find something that works good, and that could take anything from weeks to months.

Aedilred
2014-08-30, 01:18 PM
I'm not amazing at making decisions in real life, so when I'm being particularly useless I'll toss a coin. I try to narrow my options down to two; if one of them is the one I'd rather do but think might be suboptimal, that's tails, and the one I think might be better but I'd rather not do is heads. I don't rule out overruling the coin if I decide after tossing it that it was the wrong decision, but at least it forces me to make one.

Perhaps something like this would help your player. Obviously it's not for everyone in real life, but in a game where making the "wrong" decision isn't the end of the world it might help to speed things up. Suggest that if she gets paralysed by indecision, you and the others help her come up with two options and then flip a coin (or more than two, and roll a die). It might help to speed up the decision-making process without making her feel like it's her fault if she gets it wrong (it's the coin's fault!), but it's still also her agency rather than just having other people tell her what to do. You could even make it an IC feature of her character - like Two-Face from Batman.

Jay R
2014-08-30, 03:00 PM
The hardest part will be when you have to pull this back, and let her make mistakes again. But hopefully, you can do this subtly enough that she'll develop some confidence, and the first few setbacks will be minor enough that she can recover from them with another choice that's very clear (but still requires some decision from her).

This isn't therapy, and a DM is not a trained therapist. Don't even think about moving subtly to develop her confidence. Run the game so that she can have fun - and keep running it that way.

sktarq
2014-08-30, 03:28 PM
have her build a spare character or two. Regularly talk them up OOC. Make it clear that even if she blows it totally and dies she can now play with that other character she has been looking forward to. Lower the responsibilities.

Tengu_temp
2014-08-30, 03:29 PM
The obvious solution here is to never leave this player in a situation where she has to make important choices. Also, when she's asking what to do, she's asking OOC, not IC, so the other players can advice her even if their characters are not there - tell them that. Worst case scenario, offer her advice yourself if she can't decide.

Overall, though, I wonder why does this player stay, if it's evident that she doesn't have fun with the game and her breakdowns cause trouble for everyone else. Maybe tabletop games are simply not for her? You don't have to stop being friends just because you don't play together, you know.

Talakeal
2014-08-30, 04:17 PM
I don't like kicking players and the group is getting painfully small to begin with, but in this case if she was to leave the group we would lose half the other players and the place where we play, so it isn't really an option.

It doesn't really seem to be about consequences. Some of her biggest outbursts have been over trivially small things like losing a few gold or missing a single attack. When she actually takes serious damage she cries and pouts even if she still wins the fight. The one time she died she burst into tears and refused to participate in the rest of the session even though she was revived the very next round. I doubt a backup character or the like is going to change anything.

Engine
2014-08-30, 04:35 PM
I don't like kicking players and the group is getting painfully small to begin with, but in this case if she was to leave the group we would lose half the other players and the place where we play, so it isn't really an option.

It doesn't really seem to be about consequences. Some of her biggest outbursts have been over trivially small things like losing a few gold or missing a single attack. When she actually takes serious damage she cries and pouts even if she still wins the fight. The one time she died she burst into tears and refused to participate in the rest of the session even though she was revived the very next round. I doubt a backup character or the like is going to change anything.

You should ask her to leave not because she's a disruptive player; it seems to me that playing is not good for her.
Simply put, it's not normal for a grown-up to cry because her imaginary puppet lost some hit points. Maybe talk to the people that would leave if she leaves, show your concerns, try to understand if that's a chance to play with them even if her friend leaves.

I know that you came here asking how you should handle this player, but IMHO, you shouldn't. You shouldn't handle her, if I was you I would ask her to leave because I'm not her caretaker, I'm not a professional and I don't know how to deal properly with her issues; I wouldn't accept the responsibility that I could worsen her condition. And if I couldn't convince the others to play even without her...I would choose not to play with her. I know it could seem harsh, but as I said above, I don't think gaming is good for her and I wouldn't accept any responsibility with her.

cobaltstarfire
2014-08-30, 04:38 PM
I don't like kicking players and the group is getting painfully small to begin with, but in this case if she was to leave the group we would lose half the other players and the place where we play, so it isn't really an option.

It doesn't really seem to be about consequences. Some of her biggest outbursts have been over trivially small things like losing a few gold or missing a single attack. When she actually takes serious damage she cries and pouts even if she still wins the fight. The one time she died she burst into tears and refused to participate in the rest of the session even though she was revived the very next round. I doubt a backup character or the like is going to change anything.

So answer us this, does she actually want to be involved at all?

You've told us quite a few times that you don't want to get rid of her for what is basically the personal interest of yourself and the other players. Maybe you should ask her about her interests, like if she actually wants to be playing the game. You still haven't actually answered that.

Beneath
2014-08-30, 05:23 PM
So answer us this, does she actually want to be involved at all?

You've told us quite a few times that you don't want to get rid of her for what is basically the personal interest of yourself and the other players. Maybe you should ask her about her interests, like if she actually wants to be playing the game. You still haven't actually answered that.

Yes, this.

Everyone's advice about how to make the game fun for her by limiting the decisions she has to make won't work if she doesn't want to be there and is only not quitting because she doesn't want to decide to.

If she wants to stay, that's when you start coming up with ideas to try to cut down on problems for her. Work with her on this, as much as you can; don't just try things someone on the internet suggested without talking with her first.

Raine_Sage
2014-08-30, 06:52 PM
You know I have to wonder where you keep finding these people. I think I've seen you post about more problem players than I've know problem people in general. I don't suppose you live near some kind of chemical plant?

In all seriousness I agree with the others.

- Ask her if she really wants to keep playing this game or if it's too stressful for her.

- If she does want to keep playing then encourage her to seek therapy because seriously that stuff doesn't really get better without professional intervention.

- If she won't agree to that consult the players who would leave if she wasn't there. Stress to them that you're worried she's not enjoying the game and that you're not "kicking her" but you'd feel better if she wasn't constantly melting down. Assuming they know her better than you do maybe they could attempt to convince her one way or another.

The whole situation is weird to me though. I just can't imagine a situation where, assuming you are all at least acquainted with one another, her dropping would cause other people to drop. Because that implies the only reason they're playing is because /she's/ playing which further implies that without her the game would not be enjoyable. But given the description of her behavior I can't think of any reason the table would be divided on this, the decision to kick her would have been unanimous in just about every group I've played with.

Unless they'd be dropping because she'd throw another fit if they continued to play without her.


Edit: Oh I forgot to ask, does she do this outside the game? Like if you ask her what she wants for lunch does she break down crying? Or does she throw the remote at you if you ask whether she'd like to watch lord of the rings or the hobbit first? Because if this is limited to the gaming table she might just be an incredibly sore loser and all around toxic person.

Shinken
2014-08-31, 01:19 PM
Why isn't this feasible? Are you that short on players?

I'm guessing it's because friends help each other instead of dumping them.

AMFV
2014-08-31, 01:45 PM
I'm guessing it's because friends help each other instead of dumping them.

Well the issue is that this is beyond "helping", and is possibly even enabling. Allowing somebody to throw a temper tantrum in public doesn't help them, it creates an environment where they feel increasingly powerless, and enables this sort of embarrassing and problematic situation to continue. If my friend shows up to my house blackout drunk and makes passes at my wife and then passes out on the floor, then saying: "Nope, that's not gonna fly" isn't 'dumping' my friend, that's setting reasonable adult boundaries. Which is what needs to happen here. Throwing things, screaming, breaking down sobbing, that's not acceptable behavior for a social game setting, and setting a boundary there isn't just going to help Tala, it's going to help his player as well.

So setting boundaries != cutting your friend out of your life. And boundaries do need to be set here. If the friend can't game, then they can involve her in other aspects of their life. They could have a video-game night where she can observe others playing and get the social aspect without having to make any decisions. She could even be an observer to the D&D game, getting the social aspect and the fun of the story without having any personal risk involved.

Anxe
2014-08-31, 01:47 PM
One of my players has this problem to a much lesser extent. He just flips a coin when he comes upon a decision he is unsure of. I'd throw that in there with the other discussions. Be nice about it though. This person still sounds like your friend even if they get upset easily.

Nagash
2014-08-31, 01:58 PM
I dont want to be a jerk but this player has a major personality issue.

I've known people with anxiety issues, this doesnt sound like that. It sounds like a blend of incredibly sore loser and drama queen. There might be some anxiety issues there too but unless this happens this badly in other areas of her life as well thats not the root here.

Tell her to knock it the hell off and go get some therapy and medication, its a game. There are no real consequences to any decision so stop acting like its the end of the world.

Assuming she does make an effort on that front and there is a real component of anxiety too then get her a few beers before and during the game. Most people I've known with anxiety issues loosen right up after a few drinks and have a lot more fun.

** caveat, if she does get on medication.... stop buying beer. That can be a bad combo.

LokiRagnarok
2014-08-31, 03:50 PM
Tell her to knock it the hell off and go get some therapy and medication, its a game. There are no real consequences to any decision so stop acting like its the end of the world.

Yeah... you are making a mistake if you assume logic is guaranteed to work.
Chances are she already knows that. Still doesn't help her with her resisting her problem. The whole point about anxities, phobias and the like is that cause you to throw logic out of the window - otherwise they would be easily cured.

To put it in D&D terms, she may have high Wisdom, but low Will. So when what looks like an Eldritch monster appears in front of her, she may rationally know it cannot hurt her, but still fail her Will save against fear.

DontEatRawHagis
2014-08-31, 04:07 PM
I'd try talking. To her like other people suggest. But also try to set up some scenarios where there is no wrong answer.

Kitten Champion
2014-08-31, 04:18 PM
Telling someone to seek professional help is rarely a pragmatic solution in my experience with these sorts of situations, regardless if the intent is compassionate.

I would ask her what part of the role playing game experience she's comfortable with and enjoys, then as Jay R suggests, enable her do that. Anyways, is there no one in the group who is more intimate with her personally that you can talk to first?

Jornophelanthas
2014-08-31, 05:34 PM
I don't like kicking players and the group is getting painfully small to begin with, but in this case if she was to leave the group we would lose half the other players and the place where we play, so it isn't really an option.

You have two different problems here.

The first is the player's disfunction, which has already been discussed.

The second problem appears to be a social issue with half of the group.
My interpretation (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the player with the issues is in a close relationship with one or two other players ("half of the other players"), and this clique as a whole has apparently decided to join and host your game. Now, if the troubled player is incapable of making decision, who made this decision on her behalf? The others in her clique.
If this is the case (and I could be very wrong here), the rest of the clique are not acting in her best interest, and are indirectly saddling you with her pathological indecision. She may not even want to be there, but may be simply unable to decide to leave, either because doing whatever her clique does is her way of cruising through life, or because her clique has decided for her that she should play. Possibly even because they believe it is "good for her".

Now, this is a bona fide hornet's nest, and I would not like risking upsetting anyone here. My advice would be:

1. Sit down with the player (one on one), and ask her about her issues ("Is there anything I should know?") and how she believes you should deal with them. Stress that you are concerned that she is not having fun.

2. While speaking with her, try to find out how she actually joined the game. Did she consciously make that decision? Or did someone strongly suggest that she should? If it is impossible to have a one-on-one conversation with her, because she is never separated from one of the other players (her S.O.?) for long, you already have your answer to this.

3. If you can identify any of the other players who appears to govern her decision to play, sit down with that player. Express your concern about her appearing to not enjoy the game, and her behaviour disrupting the game. Ask if this person can think of any solutions.

4. From here, leave the initiative with the players concerned. It is out of your hands, and you can only react to any of their initiatives.

That is all you can do. It is not guaranteed to yield any solutions, and still risks hurt feelings. The final solution may be you deciding whether it is still worth it to have the game, or even whether you would be willing to play a game that can be damaging to one of the players.

Finally, do NOT do any of the following:
- Place blame on anyone. Her mental issues are outside of everyone's control.
- Force the player with issues to make a decision about her behaviour. Especially don't ask for an immeidate answer.
- Explicitly mention to the player with issues that her outbursts negatively affect the game and other people's fun. Stick with the "I am concerned" approach.This only adds stress, which may actually invoke an outburst. this is the last thing you want
- Express an opinion or judgment about how other people appear to govern the OOC decisions of the player with the issue. This is a private matter and none of your business, even if it does affect your game.
- Let a player who has controlling influence over the player with the issues exert this same controlling influence over you. If you let them, you could end up being dictated everything that should happen to her character, losing control over your own game. Always make your own decisions about a game you participate in.

The Glyphstone
2014-08-31, 07:14 PM
You know I have to wonder where you keep finding these people. I think I've seen you post about more problem players than I've know problem people in general. I don't suppose you live near some kind of chemical plant?
.

Talakeal posts here through a portal to the Mirror Universe, where the ratios of insane/toxic/dysfunctional and normal people are inverted. I've been posting here for years and I don't think I have ever seen a story from him about a gaming group that wasn't incredibly screwed up.


On-topic...unless you are a professional therapist, this is not an issue you can resolve at your gaming table. Since none of us are professional therapists (and if we are, Da Rulez prohibit us from giving medical advice), we cannot solve this for you either. There's been a lot of good suggestions made, but this is a purely OOC problem...and like every other problem you've come to us with in the past, one that will possibly end with you hunting a new group/game location.

Mr Beer
2014-08-31, 10:19 PM
Talakeal posts here through a portal to the Mirror Universe, where the ratios of insane/toxic/dysfunctional and normal people are inverted. I've been posting here for years and I don't think I have ever seen a story from him about a gaming group that wasn't incredibly screwed up.

I think it's plausible that Talakeal is running an odd long con trolling session, just to see how many bizarrely terrible gaming stories he can come up with before people just call BS on the whole thing.


On-topic...unless you are a professional therapist, this is not an issue you can resolve at your gaming table. Since none of us are professional therapists (and if we are, Da Rulez prohibit us from giving medical advice), we cannot solve this for you either. There's been a lot of good suggestions made, but this is a purely OOC problem...and like every other problem you've come to us with in the past, one that will possibly end with you hunting a new group/game location.

This is good and sensible advice.

Talakeal
2014-09-01, 01:06 AM
I think it's plausible that Talakeal is running an odd long con trolling session, just to see how many bizarrely terrible gaming stories he can come up with before people just call BS on the whole thing.
.

I would give almost anything for that to be the truth :)

The Glyphstone
2014-09-01, 01:24 AM
I think it's plausible that Talakeal is running an odd long con trolling session, just to see how many bizarrely terrible gaming stories he can come up with before people just call BS on the whole thing.

.

We passed the point of no return on that theory long ago.

Nagash
2014-09-01, 05:50 AM
Yeah... you are making a mistake if you assume logic is guaranteed to work.
Chances are she already knows that. Still doesn't help her with her resisting her problem. The whole point about anxities, phobias and the like is that cause you to throw logic out of the window - otherwise they would be easily cured.

To put it in D&D terms, she may have high Wisdom, but low Will. So when what looks like an Eldritch monster appears in front of her, she may rationally know it cannot hurt her, but still fail her Will save against fear.

Your assuming the priority is her.

I'm not.

The priority is the rest of the group that she is disrupting.

Its far past time for us all to leave the geek fallacies behind and be willing to tell people to take a hike and get some help if they need it from real professionals instead of depending on the rest of us to enable your bull crap. Doing so doesnt really help the person in question and harms all of the rest of us.

DM Nate
2014-09-01, 08:47 AM
My wife reacted not unlike this during games I'd run...usually beginning loud, accusatory arguments about how she felt she was being treated unfairly. The root cause was an anxiety disorder sparked by my time in the military, and she's a LOT better now that she's on medication.

The point I'm making is not to push her towards medication, but that such behavior (even when it seems extreme) might not be something she can consciously control. Be patient with her, no matter what course you choose.

AMFV
2014-09-01, 09:51 AM
My wife reacted not unlike this during games I'd run...usually beginning loud, accusatory arguments about how she felt she was being treated unfairly. The root cause was an anxiety disorder sparked by my time in the military, and she's a LOT better now that she's on medication.

The point I'm making is not to push her towards medication, but that such behavior (even when it seems extreme) might not be something she can consciously control. Be patient with her, no matter what course you choose.

The point is that if the experience is triggering for her. Then it might be better not to include her, and to look for alternative activities for her. As I suggested, being an observer, or video game night, or movie night, or bad movie night. Those are all good activities that don't involve lots of decision making.

Asking her to keep participating is the same sort of thing as inviting your friend who is in AA to a wine tasting, or your friend who is in GA to a Poker game for small amounts of cash. Excluding her won't hurt her as much as including her would. If this game is that emotionally wrecking for her, then you shouldn't invite her, or you should ask her if she might want to just observe.

Because even if she can't control her behavior, putting her in a situation where it comes out is not good. It's bad for her, bad for the GM, and bad for the group. Which is why I'd suggest trying a different activity with her. Instead of pushing her into something which is triggering these episodes.

Jay R
2014-09-01, 09:56 AM
Your assuming the priority is her.

I'm not.

The priority is the rest of the group that she is disrupting.

Its far past time for us all to leave the geek fallacies behind and be willing to tell people to take a hike and get some help if they need it from real professionals instead of depending on the rest of us to enable your bull crap. Doing so doesnt really help the person in question and harms all of the rest of us.

You're assuming the priority is the rest of the group.

I'm not.

The priority is the entire group, including her.

The DM's job is to provide a fun game for everyone. Only if he has conceded defeat should one player be asked to leave. First, the DM should try giving her a game with die-rolling but no frustrating decisions. See if that can work for everybody

Until that's been tried, kicking her out shouldn't even be considered.

AMFV
2014-09-01, 09:59 AM
You're assuming the priority is the rest of the group.

I'm not.

The priority is the entire group, including her.

The DM's job is to provide a fun game for everyone. Only if he has conceded defeat should one player be asked to leave. First, the DM should try giving her a game with die-rolling but no frustrating decisions. See if that can work for everybody

Until that's been tried, kicking her out shouldn't even be considered.

The thing is that the DM has already stated that even taking damage has that effect on her. It's having any negative consequence at all, whether or not she actually has any control. It's why I would recommend an "observer status" for her if she's to be included.

Clearly she isn't having fun, it's unlikely that she will ever have fun. He should try instead of kicking, reorganizing so that she is either an observer, or she participates in a different group activity with the group.

SiuiS
2014-09-01, 10:03 AM
Definitely an unfortunate situation.


I would say, get deeply involved with apocalypse'world (yourself, not yor group) for a week or two. Engrossed yourself in it. Develop the habits it presents.

Then, tell your player. "Hey, choices will come up. And 'bad' things will happen. But that's okay, and that's intentional. It's all part of the story. As long as we all have fun and enjoy the story, it's actually the Right Choice".


I otherwise support both AMFV and Jay R, depending on more context. This may be something she needs help with, but that doesn't mean she should be dropped like a bad habit.

Tengu_temp
2014-09-01, 10:15 AM
I get the feeling that the player in question simply doesn't enjoy roleplaying games and would rather do something else. The whole matter smells to me of Geek Social Fallacy #5 (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html).

Nagash
2014-09-01, 04:47 PM
You're assuming the priority is the rest of the group.

I'm not.

The priority is the entire group, including her.

The DM's job is to provide a fun game for everyone. Only if he has conceded defeat should one player be asked to leave. First, the DM should try giving her a game with die-rolling but no frustrating decisions. See if that can work for everybody

Until that's been tried, kicking her out shouldn't even be considered.

sorry but no. thats ass backwards.

The GM has no responsibility at all to cater to someone being this disruptive. Or even half this disruptive. Once grownups start throwing the sort of temper tantrums I wouldnt let my 2 year old pull they need to go.

GM's are not therapists or babysitters.

Talakeal
2014-09-01, 05:20 PM
I get the feeling that the player in question simply doesn't enjoy roleplaying games and would rather do something else. The whole matter smells to me of Geek Social Fallacy #5 (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html).

Agreed.

While I don't like to lose players I can acknowledge that sometimes the group as a whole might be better off without a problem player.

The problem is that it is not my decision, I am the DM but don't host the game or run on a dictatorship, and several of the other players very much do believe that if you love someone you have to do everything with them, and if we kicked every SO and BFF who was a problem player we would literally have no group left.

AMFV
2014-09-01, 05:45 PM
Agreed.

While I don't like to lose players I can acknowledge that sometimes the group as a whole might be better off without a problem player.

The problem is that it is not my decision, I am the DM but don't host the game or run on a dictatorship, and several of the other players very much do believe that if you love someone you have to do everything with them, and if we kicked every SO and BFF who was a problem player we would literally have no group left.

Well have you talked to the rest of the group about this? What is her relationship to the others in the group? Is she a S/O? Is she somebody's friend? Here's the long and short of it, hosting does not mean that they get to dictate terms to you either. It goes a long way towards that, but you have to have a point where you don't have to tolerate that sort of thing. There's a point where you have to say, "Look she isn't enjoying it, so we stop making her play, or I won't be a part of it, okay?'

Also is she apologetic after the incidents? Does she admit that she lost control and was in the wrong, because that's a really important detail.

Engine
2014-09-01, 06:37 PM
Agreed.

While I don't like to lose players I can acknowledge that sometimes the group as a whole might be better off without a problem player.

The problem is that it is not my decision, I am the DM but don't host the game or run on a dictatorship, and several of the other players very much do believe that if you love someone you have to do everything with them, and if we kicked every SO and BFF who was a problem player we would literally have no group left.

Several users suggested that you should ask her to leave, it seems to me that you strongly believe such course of action isn't feasible.
Let me ask you something: are you having fun with this group? Do you have so much fun with this group that you think dealing with the issues of this player is worth it?
And if you're not having fun, do you think that any game, even an unfun game, is still better than no game?

You're not a professional, you don't know how to handle her. And if she can't leave for whatever reason, then you should leave - unless you really have fun with this group. But even in that case, I would suggest you to leave. She cried because you rolled good with your dice. As someone else has said, it's like inviting an alcoholic to wine tasting. You could worsen her condition without knowing and IMHO you shouldn't accept this responsibility. It's for her and your own good, pal.

Hyena
2014-09-01, 10:44 PM
I think that your course of actions is obvious - if you want to keep her in the group, you get to see her the therapist. She obviously has some problems, and I'm sure they can be helped.

Raine_Sage
2014-09-02, 12:56 AM
Yeah agreed with other posters above. No game is worth ruining someone's mental health over.

Unlike the other poster I don't necessarily agree the onus is on you for hosting the game itself. Rather I'd be much more upset with whoever keeps dragging the poor girl to these things. And it's probably them you should be talking to in this case.

I suppose you live in a small rural area without many large spaces for tabletop games otherwise I'd say screw it and host at a local game shop or something.

AMFV
2014-09-02, 01:12 AM
Yeah agreed with other posters above. No game is worth ruining someone's mental health over.

Unlike the other poster I don't necessarily agree the onus is on you for hosting the game itself. Rather I'd be much more upset with whoever keeps dragging the poor girl to these things. And it's probably them you should be talking to in this case.

I suppose you live in a small rural area without many large spaces for tabletop games otherwise I'd say screw it and host at a local game shop or something.

Actually he said he didn't host the game, he only GM's it, that was why that was worded that way.

LokiRagnarok
2014-09-02, 01:16 AM
Your assuming the priority is her.

I'm not.

The priority is the rest of the group that she is disrupting.

Its far past time for us all to leave the geek fallacies behind and be willing to tell people to take a hike and get some help if they need it from real professionals instead of depending on the rest of us to enable your bull crap. Doing so doesnt really help the person in question and harms all of the rest of us.

I should clarify what I meant.
I meant that the manner of telling her of whatever steps you are going to take - be it excluding her from the group or not - is important. You probably won't get far with logical arguments - instead I want to echo the suggestion of using "I-messages" from the emotional perspective. That is, stuff like "I am worried", "I feel I don't have fun at this game" etc.

I am not pro or contra kicking her out of the group - depending on the result of your talk with her, one or the other may be the right choice.

rainwise
2014-09-02, 02:04 AM
This is going to sound silly, but I am a grown adult and I do this all the time: if I can't think of the right decision, I decide to believe that it just isn't up to me, and let eenie meenie mynie moe decide. You could suggest she do this.

Alternately, you could set her on rails. "You decide to go right." And if she doesn't interject with telling you she wants to go left, then she ends up going right.

SiuiS
2014-09-02, 02:09 AM
Agreed.

While I don't like to lose players I can acknowledge that sometimes the group as a whole might be better off without a problem player.

The problem is that it is not my decision, I am the DM but don't host the game or run on a dictatorship, and several of the other players very much do believe that if you love someone you have to do everything with them, and if we kicked every SO and BFF who was a problem player we would literally have no group left.

Then no group is best. Think of it this way; you can't handle it and you leave. You don't kick someone and have the group dissolve. Find or make a healthier group. It sounds best.

Nagash
2014-09-02, 11:28 AM
I should clarify what I meant.
I meant that the manner of telling her of whatever steps you are going to take - be it excluding her from the group or not - is important. You probably won't get far with logical arguments - instead I want to echo the suggestion of using "I-messages" from the emotional perspective. That is, stuff like "I am worried", "I feel I don't have fun at this game" etc.

I am not pro or contra kicking her out of the group - depending on the result of your talk with her, one or the other may be the right choice.

eh maybe. It sounds to me like this person is more likely to be relieved to have an excuse not to play something she doesnt seem to be enjoying anymore then upset by it.

If thats the case your really just letting her of the hook by letting yourself be the bad guy to whatever SO is dragging her there.

jordan.k93
2014-09-02, 11:49 AM
This is an OOC issue that should really be delt with OOC.

But not by the DM or players, **** NO, this nutcase needs help, on a professional level.

However that doesn't mean there's not a solution:

An idea might be, get her a familiar, or familiar like companion.

A petal MM3 or a sprite, or pixie or something, something that only reveals itself when she's alone and is in extreme dismay and otherwise remains invisible.

Like an imaginary friend.

This is a pretty **** solution though tbh, this isn't something a normal person should have to suffer through (the poor girl who can't make decisions rather than her friends) and should definitely get help.

Studoku
2014-09-02, 12:21 PM
Agreed.

While I don't like to lose players I can acknowledge that sometimes the group as a whole might be better off without a problem player.

The problem is that it is not my decision, I am the DM but don't host the game or run on a dictatorship, and several of the other players very much do believe that if you love someone you have to do everything with them, and if we kicked every SO and BFF who was a problem player we would literally have no group left.
So that's elements of 1,2,4 & 5. Impressive.

Garimeth
2014-09-02, 12:55 PM
Agreed.

While I don't like to lose players I can acknowledge that sometimes the group as a whole might be better off without a problem player.

The problem is that it is not my decision, I am the DM but don't host the game or run on a dictatorship, and several of the other players very much do believe that if you love someone you have to do everything with them, and if we kicked every SO and BFF who was a problem player we would literally have no group left.

Roll20 is pretty awesome.

Talakeal
2014-09-02, 04:12 PM
Let me start out by saying I am really uncomfortable answering a lot of questions that have been asked in this thread because I feel like I am airing other people's dirty laundry on the internet and that makes me feel like I am violating their trust.


Also is she apologetic after the incidents? Does she admit that she lost control and was in the wrong, because that's a really important detail.

Absolutely not. She blames other people for her outbursts. One time one of her explosions erupted into a major fighter with her husband and afterwards she told me that "My game nearly cost her her marriage." That really hurt my feelings.



Let me ask you something: are you having fun with this group? Do you have so much fun with this group that you think dealing with the issues of this player is worth it?
And if you're not having fun, do you think that any game, even an unfun game, is still better than no game?


Generally yes, I do have fun. And except for the most extreme blowups I don't really mind them personally except that it is disrupting the game, but I feel really bad that it is causing other people emotional distress and am trying to figure out how to minimize these incidents.

When I ask for advice I am not generally trying to decide whether or not to end the game or how to "fix" other people, I am just trying to figure out how to run a game that is less likely to set other people off and when it is appropriate for me to compromise or back down.




Anyway, to answer specifically why I can't kick her and she can't leave, the guy who hosts the game is married to her and he has some form of anxiety disorder where he has panic attacks if he does ANYTHING without her. So if she goes for whatever reason we lose two players and are out a place to play. The thing is, he is actually the one who has the biggest problems with her outbursts, and his explosive reactions to them normally causes a lot more problems than her outbursts do in the first place.

Anxe
2014-09-02, 04:21 PM
I... would never be friends with people like that... It seems more and more like a situation that you cannot contain, but only remove yourself from. That's what I would do in your position.

Talakeal
2014-09-02, 04:24 PM
I... would never be friends with people like that... It seems more and more like a situation that you cannot contain, but only remove yourself from. That's what I would do in your position.

Yeah, I know.

But I hate change and I am terribly shy and afraid of strangers. And I really do love gaming and really do have fun when we are actually playing rather than bitching or fighting over insignificant issues.

Trust me, I am actively working on finding a new group, but it is hard, especially when you live in such a small New Mexico town and don't have an existing network of friends.

Kalmageddon
2014-09-02, 04:38 PM
Yeah, I know.

But I hate change and I am terribly shy and afraid of strangers. And I really do love gaming and really do have fun when we are actually playing rather than bitching or fighting over insignificant issues.

Trust me, I am actively working on finding a new group, but it is hard, especially when you live in such a small New Mexico town and don't have an existing network of friends.

This player and her husband remind me of a couple I know. It's like seeing them projected into the future. So I can relate to the dynamics at work here.
I can only echo the advice other people have given you: get out while you can, play online if you have to. Roll20 is a good place to start.

Anything else would be just delaying the inevitable, trust me on this. First hand experience, sadly.

Aquillion
2014-09-02, 04:43 PM
Anyway, to answer specifically why I can't kick her and she can't leave, the guy who hosts the game is married to her and he has some form of anxiety disorder where he has panic attacks if he does ANYTHING without her. So if she goes for whatever reason we lose two players and are out a place to play. The thing is, he is actually the one who has the biggest problems with her outbursts, and his explosive reactions to them normally causes a lot more problems than her outbursts do in the first place.At this point your dynamic is so bad that I'm expecting you to explain how the place where you play is built on an ancient Indian burial ground, which has cursed you all so you must play each night or wither away into ashes and dust.

More seriously, it sounds like she does not want to play, and is being dragooned into it by her husband, who has dependency issues. In light of this, her actions make sense -- she doesn't want to play and is, either deliberately or subconsciously, trying to ruin the game in order to get out of it (the fact that her outbursts include her saying that she hates playing is a tipoff, too.)

There really isn't a solution. If she's an inextricable part of the group, and she doesn't want to play, then you can't really keep playing without constantly having problems like this. If you absolutely must play, I would suggest, instead, trying to find a game she enjoys -- she might like a more narrative-oriented game, one without the potential for mechanical consequences; or just a more casual game in general.

Of course, you might not enjoy that, but basically, you have to find a game that everyone in the group enjoys. If D&D doesn't fit the bill, your only options are to kick people out of the group, find another group (both of which you seem unable or unwilling to do), or to find a game everyone likes.

Engine
2014-09-02, 04:52 PM
Anyway, to answer specifically why I can't kick her and she can't leave, the guy who hosts the game is married to her and he has some form of anxiety disorder where he has panic attacks if he does ANYTHING without her. So if she goes for whatever reason we lose two players and are out a place to play. The thing is, he is actually the one who has the biggest problems with her outbursts, and his explosive reactions to them normally causes a lot more problems than her outbursts do in the first place.

So you have two problematic players, not just one. I bet you know what I would tell you now, so I'll skip this part and ask you something else: have you ever thought of running an online game?
People seems friendly on GitP, maybe you could find some players to run a game here or on Roll20. That way, even if you're afraid of strangers, you wouldn't have to meet your players in person and you could keep the small talk to a minimum.

I'm sorry I couldn't give you more useful advice, but there are too many issues at your table and IMHO either you bite the bullet or you simply walk away.

AMFV
2014-09-02, 06:02 PM
Let me start out by saying I am really uncomfortable answering a lot of questions that have been asked in this thread because I feel like I am airing other people's dirty laundry on the internet and that makes me feel like I am violating their trust.

To be fair things that happen in group social events are hardly a place where there is any expectation of privacy.



Absolutely not. She blames other people for her outbursts. One time one of her explosions erupted into a major fighter with her husband and afterwards she told me that "My game nearly cost her her marriage." That really hurt my feelings.

GET OUT. DO NOT PASS GO. There is no reason to stay, it will escalate and you will eventually wind up losing both of them as friends. I'm sorry I don't see any other outcome. She is going to blame you and there is no reason that you should tolerate that, that is not acceptable behavior on any level, in fact that's about as terrible as it gets.



Anyway, to answer specifically why I can't kick her and she can't leave, the guy who hosts the game is married to her and he has some form of anxiety disorder where he has panic attacks if he does ANYTHING without her. So if she goes for whatever reason we lose two players and are out a place to play. The thing is, he is actually the one who has the biggest problems with her outbursts, and his explosive reactions to them normally causes a lot more problems than her outbursts do in the first place.

That's because she's doing the outposts to get a reaction from him because she's not wanting to play, so since she has to be miserable, she is then making him miserable, it's something I've seen a lot before. Lose the two players and drop, it will eventually get much worse. And when it does you will almost definitely lose both friends.

Hyena
2014-09-02, 06:09 PM
Okay... Okay, Talakeal, listen to me. I've been here for a while and I've seen a lot of your threads. So, after reading them, I can't help but wonder, if you ever have normal players. I mean, all role players have issues in some form - otherwise, we wouldn't be playing games after growing up, but still, your groups always seem riddled with serious problems. Have you ever tried combining the least problematic players into one party?

Raine_Sage
2014-09-03, 01:32 AM
To be fair things that happen in group social events are hardly a place where there is any expectation of privacy.



GET OUT. DO NOT PASS GO. There is no reason to stay, it will escalate and you will eventually wind up losing both of them as friends. I'm sorry I don't see any other outcome. She is going to blame you and there is no reason that you should tolerate that, that is not acceptable behavior on any level, in fact that's about as terrible as it gets.



That's because she's doing the outposts to get a reaction from him because she's not wanting to play, so since she has to be miserable, she is then making him miserable, it's something I've seen a lot before. Lose the two players and drop, it will eventually get much worse. And when it does you will almost definitely lose both friends.

This, all of this. While her meltdowns might well be part of some underlying anxiety issue (which she apparently refuses to acknowledge she has) it's probably mostly her passive-aggressively trying to shut down and derail things on purpose. She can't tell her husband outright that she doesn't enjoy the game because she knows it'd lead to a fight. So you've officially become the scapegoat. This is only going to get worse.

Look if you ever want to host an online game, I know people. Good people. Sane people. Who haven't played anything in a while due to lack of options and would just like a nice fun thing to do on evenings off. I'm sure there are plenty of other people on this forum even who are in that same boat. I was one of them. We're here for you bro, if you want players you're literally looking at a community full of them. Plus playing online means you don't get pelted with dice. At worst disgruntled people just log out of skype. It's a win win.

Knaight
2014-09-03, 02:03 AM
It's probably time to bail. Half the group is problem players, it sounds like she doesn't even want to be there but is getting dragged in by her husband, and the whole situation is screwed. It would be one thing if she was just shutting down - that's really frustrating for everyone else, as it pretty much kills any social activity until the shut down ends, but the rest of the behavior (and the blaming of other people for it) pushes this into total-mess areas.

Nobody is getting kicked out of the group, you are just leaving because you don't want to GM for them anymore. They are perfectly free to try and set something up on their own, which you aren't a part of. After all, no gaming is better than bad gaming.

SiuiS
2014-09-03, 02:19 AM
For real. Talakeal, you are in a self destructive spiral. Let go. Start new. This cannot go anywhere good.


. I mean, all role players have issues in some form - otherwise, we wouldn't be playing games after growing up, but still,

That's quite a silly assertion. I cannot think of any culture throughout history where adults have not played games, not can I think of one where games were not directly used to teach adult skills.

Curbstomp
2014-09-03, 02:52 AM
As you clearly intend to keep playing with them for some time, you may want to start hosting and deliberately put that husband/wife duo in the role of supporting characters that the plot does not center around. That way when they blow up at each other or in general you can have them leave the room until they calm down.

If this is D&D 3.5 I would suggest having her play a Spirit Shaman. They have a spirit guide that you can role-play to seek guidance from. If she can't make a decision in game, skipping her turn while her character communes with her spirit guide isn't the worst way to play around her needing to step away from the table on occasion. That is exactly what a friend of mine who has had similar issues used to do and it worked out well. Admittedly his issues were significantly less frequent than what you have described.

Beyond that, be a good friend and pray for her. Maybe point her toward a counseling service.

Curbstomp
2014-09-03, 02:59 AM
Also, I'm no expert, but are you familiar with Borderline Personality Disorder?

It kind of sounds like what you player has to me. My wife suffered from that condition and I found the book Walking on Eggshells helpful to understand how to relate to her.

Jornophelanthas
2014-09-03, 06:10 AM
So let me get this straight.

Player B is hosting the game, and insists his wife (Player A) plays with him. Player B is also heavily affected whenever Player A throws a tantrum.

Player A throws tantrums whenever she has to make decisions and they don't fall her way. Player A also blames you (Talakeal, the DM) for both her tantrums and her husband's reaction to her tantrums.

---

Remember how you said that, during one of her outbursts, she compared gaming with you to playing a video game, with the video game the clear favorite? I think that was directed at her husband, to tell him that he should quit the roleplaying game, and play video games with her instead.

If you stay in this game, it will eventually go like this:

Player A will throw one too many tantrums, causing Player B to get upset with her. Player A will successfully convince Player B that it is YOUR (Talakeal's) fault for causing them to fight, and that YOU are causing them marriage problems. She will then put him on the spot, and force him to choose between their marriage and his friendship with you.

Since he appears to have a dependency-issue with her, he will obviously choose to appease his wife, and sever all ties with you. The game ends, and neither of them will speak to you again.

With this scenario looming over your head, Player A basically holds the game ransom. At an unconscious level, she is telling you: "I don't want to play this stupid game. You have to let me win by succeeding at everything, or I blow up your stupid game, so that I can have my husband back. Even though I will still do that eventually. You husband-stealer."

---

You have three options here:

1. Follow the scenario I just sketched, catering to Player A's whims and misbehavior to appease her for as long as you can, delaying the inevitable falling out for as long as you can, and accept the consequences in advance.

2. End the game on your own terms, so you can salvage any friendships you have. Prepare soon-ish endings to your plot, and allow everyone to retire their characters the way they like, that kind of thing. Then, if you value their friendship outside of roleplaying, find a different activity that both Player A and Player B will enjoy doing with you.
(Maybe a game where they can share a single character / game piece, so they are always on the same team? This could accommodate both his dependency issues and her decision issues. Or video games.)

3. Try to change the motivations of Player A, Player B or both. This seems mostly impossible, though, because they are both actively reinforcing each other's bad habits. Any positive change would probably have to involve professional intervention and a willingness to change in both players. This is certainly not something that you can expect to achieve from your position as a bystander.

Garimeth
2014-09-03, 07:12 AM
Yeah, I know.

But I hate change and I am terribly shy and afraid of strangers. And I really do love gaming and really do have fun when we are actually playing rather than bitching or fighting over insignificant issues.

Trust me, I am actively working on finding a new group, but it is hard, especially when you live in such a small New Mexico town and don't have an existing network of friends.

Roll20 is pretty awesome.

Jay R
2014-09-03, 09:02 AM
Anyway, to answer specifically why I can't kick her and she can't leave, the guy who hosts the game is married to her and he has some form of anxiety disorder where he has panic attacks if he does ANYTHING without her. So if she goes for whatever reason we lose two players and are out a place to play. The thing is, he is actually the one who has the biggest problems with her outbursts, and his explosive reactions to them normally causes a lot more problems than her outbursts do in the first place.

Then try to find a way for her to play and enjoy. If that means you make the decisions for a character and she rolls the dice, and that will be fun for her and stress-free for the others, then go for it.

TRhe ideal solution isn't the one where we all play the same way. The ideal solution is where we all have fun.

AMFV
2014-09-03, 09:54 AM
Then try to find a way for her to play and enjoy. If that means you make the decisions for a character and she rolls the dice, and that will be fun for her and stress-free for the others, then go for it.

TRhe ideal solution isn't the one where we all play the same way. The ideal solution is where we all have fun.

The issue is that playing in the first place is what she doesn't want to do. So she's never going to have fun with any solution that involves her doing that.

Segev
2014-09-03, 11:26 AM
Honestly? Host at your place, and invite only the other two players. Maybe see if you can discuss with the wife privately whether she actually enjoys the game or not. Be on her side either way: if she doesn't want to play, make it clear that your feelings are not hurt, and that you don't think anybody should be forced to do something they don't want to. Surely, there are other activities you can do with her and her husband that she and he both enjoy.

Do invite the husband to stay in the game, but back the wife if she wants to leave. IF he can't play without her, that's his choice.

You absolutely can run 3-man games (2 PCs + GM). You might need to allow gestalt, or a second PC for each player, or to tailor encounters around whatever role(s) the party lacks, but a decent caster can cover a lot of sins.

Meanwhile, locate your nearest gaming store. It may be a decent drive away, but an hour out and an hour back is not too bad, honestly, once a week or so. At least, it hasn't been for me. (I draw the line at doing that more than once a week or so, or at much more than an hour one-way.)

The Glyphstone
2014-09-03, 11:52 AM
You sure you've never accidentally run over a witch's familiar while driving, or cut off a voodoo doctor in traffic? I'm still holding to my 'posting from the Dysfunctional Mirror Universe theory', but it's also possible you are acting as a Terrible Player lightning rod and protecting the rest of gamerdom, for which you should be praised.

SiuiS
2014-09-03, 12:43 PM
You sure you've never accidentally run over a witch's familiar while driving, or cut off a voodoo doctor in traffic? I'm still holding to my 'posting from the Dysfunctional Mirror Universe theory', but it's also possible you are acting as a Terrible Player lightning rod and protecting the rest of gamerdom, for which you should be praised.

It's possible. There are more of is than you'd think and we are often petty.

Lord Torath
2014-09-03, 01:42 PM
Would it be possible for her to play video games in the next room (or in the same room with a divider or something blocking her screen from everyone else's view), while her husband plays D&D with the rest of you? Or must she actually be at the table for him to play? Something to bring up carefully with her husband, and with her.

Knaight
2014-09-03, 04:42 PM
With this scenario looming over your head, Player A basically holds the game ransom. At an unconscious level, she is telling you: "I don't want to play this stupid game. You have to let me win by succeeding at everything, or I blow up your stupid game, so that I can have my husband back. Even though I will still do that eventually. You husband-stealer."


She's not the one with attachment issues. It's not "I blow up your stupid game, so that I can have my husband back...You husband-stealer." It's "I'm dragged into your stupid game all the time because my husband can't go five minutes without me, and now I'm going to blow up all the time because I'm stuck here. Screw you for making this stupid game". It's still a pretty bad situation, but the blame for the attachment part is all on the other problem player.

Also, it sounds like a group of either 4 people and a GM or 3 people and a GM. 2 people and a GM works just fine as a game, and if it is the former situation, it's really easy to see how it would work here. In the latter, no gaming is still better than bad gaming.

The Glyphstone
2014-09-03, 06:13 PM
In the latter, no gaming is still better than bad gaming.

Stockholm Syndrome could be renamed 'Talakeal's Gaming Group Syndrome'.

Aquillion
2014-09-03, 07:29 PM
She's not the one with attachment issues. It's not "I blow up your stupid game, so that I can have my husband back...You husband-stealer." It's "I'm dragged into your stupid game all the time because my husband can't go five minutes without me, and now I'm going to blow up all the time because I'm stuck here. Screw you for making this stupid game". It's still a pretty bad situation, but the blame for the attachment part is all on the other problem player.Yeah, I don't know who I'd blame (and I'd probably hesitate even if I knew them personally, let alone based on a third-hand retelling of their relationship from someone who probably doesn't care too much about the details beyond how it's impacting the game), but ultimately it doesn't really matter; the game isn't going to work with that dynamic, so you either need to find something she'll enjoy doing, or give up and find another group.

In retrospect I'm dubious that even my suggestion to find a game she likes is feasible, because I suspect from what I'm hearing that she doesn't want to be there at all, possibly doesn't even want to interact with some or all of his friends, and is lashing out as a result.

(It might be worth talking to her husband about his dependency issues, because it sounds like the ideal solution would be for him to reach the point where he can do a few things without her -- I am hardly a marriage counselor, but spending 24-7 together even when it means forcing your SO to regularly do things they don't want to do doesn't sound healthy, especially when she seems to respond passive-aggressively by agreeing to whatever he wants and then starting fights when her bottled-up resentment inevitably overflows. But it sounds like that's not on the table, and it's entirely possible that there are deeper issues that we can't see.)

AMFV
2014-09-03, 10:16 PM
She's not the one with attachment issues. It's not "I blow up your stupid game, so that I can have my husband back...You husband-stealer." It's "I'm dragged into your stupid game all the time because my husband can't go five minutes without me, and now I'm going to blow up all the time because I'm stuck here. Screw you for making this stupid game". It's still a pretty bad situation, but the blame for the attachment part is all on the other problem player.

Well she is throwing temper tantrums over it, that's not just "lashing out" that's well beyond that. I'd say both of them have issues enough that a gaming table is not the proper place to resolve them.

LokiRagnarok
2014-09-04, 01:37 AM
Quoting on the phone sucks, but I wish to second the sentiment we don't know all the details; so many people coming in and saying "This is what is happening" worries me slightly, so everything said here should be taken with a grain of salt.

HammeredWharf
2014-09-04, 06:02 AM
Anyway, to answer specifically why I can't kick her and she can't leave, the guy who hosts the game is married to her and he has some form of anxiety disorder where he has panic attacks if he does ANYTHING without her. So if she goes for whatever reason we lose two players and are out a place to play. The thing is, he is actually the one who has the biggest problems with her outbursts, and his explosive reactions to them normally causes a lot more problems than her outbursts do in the first place.

Can't she just read a book or watch TV or play a video game nearby while you're playing?

Garimeth
2014-09-04, 08:41 AM
I wouldn't DM for this group even if I was being paid to. Life is too short.

Nagash
2014-09-05, 01:58 AM
So let me get this straight.

Player B is hosting the game, and insists his wife (Player A) plays with him. Player B is also heavily affected whenever Player A throws a tantrum.

Player A throws tantrums whenever she has to make decisions and they don't fall her way. Player A also blames you (Talakeal, the DM) for both her tantrums and her husband's reaction to her tantrums.

---

Remember how you said that, during one of her outbursts, she compared gaming with you to playing a video game, with the video game the clear favorite? I think that was directed at her husband, to tell him that he should quit the roleplaying game, and play video games with her instead.

If you stay in this game, it will eventually go like this:

Player A will throw one too many tantrums, causing Player B to get upset with her. Player A will successfully convince Player B that it is YOUR (Talakeal's) fault for causing them to fight, and that YOU are causing them marriage problems. She will then put him on the spot, and force him to choose between their marriage and his friendship with you.

Since he appears to have a dependency-issue with her, he will obviously choose to appease his wife, and sever all ties with you. The game ends, and neither of them will speak to you again.

With this scenario looming over your head, Player A basically holds the game ransom. At an unconscious level, she is telling you: "I don't want to play this stupid game. You have to let me win by succeeding at everything, or I blow up your stupid game, so that I can have my husband back. Even though I will still do that eventually. You husband-stealer."

---

You have three options here:

1. Follow the scenario I just sketched, catering to Player A's whims and misbehavior to appease her for as long as you can, delaying the inevitable falling out for as long as you can, and accept the consequences in advance.

2. End the game on your own terms, so you can salvage any friendships you have. Prepare soon-ish endings to your plot, and allow everyone to retire their characters the way they like, that kind of thing. Then, if you value their friendship outside of roleplaying, find a different activity that both Player A and Player B will enjoy doing with you.
(Maybe a game where they can share a single character / game piece, so they are always on the same team? This could accommodate both his dependency issues and her decision issues. Or video games.)

3. Try to change the motivations of Player A, Player B or both. This seems mostly impossible, though, because they are both actively reinforcing each other's bad habits. Any positive change would probably have to involve professional intervention and a willingness to change in both players. This is certainly not something that you can expect to achieve from your position as a bystander.

This.

This player does not have an "anxiety issue" she has a "I hate playing D&D and want to do X activity alone with my husband on his night off instead of playing this stupid game" issue.

There is no solution to this for you, at all. You could try telling him to be stop being such a putz, the world will not end if he and his wife spend a little time apart (he does leave the house presumably to work a job right? If so then yes, he absolutely CAN do things without his wife without having a panic attack. Thats just a lame excuse for his co-dependency/ mommy / abandonment issues) however, that will not work. You might be able to shame/guilt him into not being a putz for a little while. But not for long.

Run away from this group as fast as you can. To hell with wrapping up plots. This is an email that says "rocks fall your all dead" level of dysfunction. Try online gaming. Or MMO's, hell HIT YOURSELF IN THE FACE WITH A HAMMER on game night instead. It sounds more fun then what your going through. Anything but spend another minute gaming with these people.

Talakeal
2014-09-07, 01:14 AM
So I finally took some advice from the community and found a new gaming group.

This is going to take some getting used to. Everything is different! These people don't even use a tabletop!

Honestly, while there haven't been any blowups are major jackery (yet!) the people are a lot harder to get along with. There is one guy who is a very "I KNOW EVERYTHING" type, and has to contradict everything I say, even when he doesn't know what he is talking about. Very frustrating, and if it continues I think I might be the one throwing dice and sabotaging the game (jk... sort off).

But it is nice to get into a new environment and find other ways to get my gaming fix.

Hyena
2014-09-07, 01:20 AM
And he finally did it! Praise Helix!

Jornophelanthas
2014-09-07, 04:46 AM
So I finally took some advice from the community and found a new gaming group.

Did you find a new gaming group in addition to the old one? Or did the old one end? Would you mind commenting on how things went / are going with the old group?

Talakeal
2014-09-07, 06:23 AM
Did you find a new gaming group in addition to the old one? Or did the old one end? Would you mind commenting on how things went / are going with the old group?

Haven't had a chance to play, I moved last summer and we only game every few months when I am in town.