Everything has spell resistance and offers saves

[maniacalmojo]

I really hate how some effect just happen with no defense period. Would it be really a drastic change to make all spells offer SR and a saving throw.

[georgie_leech]

I really hate how some effect just happen with no defense period. Would it be really a drastic change to make all spells offer SR and a saving throw.

A large number of spells, if not most, would have to be reworked. What's the SR of the area you're casting Solid Fog into? What exactly does the save against Mage Armor represent?

[Fax Celestis]

A large number of spells, if not most, would have to be reworked. What's the SR of the area you're casting Solid Fog into? What exactly does the save against Mage Armor represent?

FWIW, mage armor already offers a save.


Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No

[(Un)Inspired]

It's not gonna really change anything in the long run. What does a wizard care about saves or SR when he's turned into a dragon and is clawing your gonads off? Who cares if the orb spells carry a save when an army of planar bound solars are stabbing you to death?

I feel like the only thing this change does is make players who don't make very good casters even worse.

[georgie_leech]

FWIW, mage armor already offers a save.

So it does.

Now I'm trying to imagine what possible reason for that there could be. :smallconfused:

[Fax Celestis]

So it does.

Now I'm trying to imagine what possible reason for that there could be. :smallconfused:

"Dammit, Xanax1, I want the ghost to hit me! Leave me alone!"

1I name all my wizards after medications. Peacekeeper Xanax! Allegra the Quick! Zoloft, Master of Winds! Adderall the Snake-Charmer!

[georgie_leech]

"Dammit, Xanax1, I want the ghost to hit me! Leave me alone!"

1I name all my wizards after medications. Peacekeeper Xanax! Allegra the Quick! Zoloft, Master of Winds! Adderall the Snake-Charmer!

:smalleek::smallconfused::smallamused::smallbiggri n:

[grarrrg]

1I name all my wizards after medications. Peacekeeper Xanax! Allegra the Quick! Zoloft, Master of Winds! Adderall the Snake-Charmer!

Shouldn't that last one be "Viagra"? :smallcool:
Just saying...

[Fax Celestis]

Shouldn't that last one be "Viagra"? :smallcool:
Just saying...

Nah. Viagra's title is "The Engorger." And she's a sorceress. Higher CHA.

[eggynack]

The problem is that, while some spells like the orb line could easily just have that no changed to a yes relative to SR, other spells just don't make much sense as SR: yes. Like, how does spell resistance work on a wall of stone, or a summoning spell, or even polymorph? In that last case, SR would probably mean that you find it more difficult to buff SR having folks, but that means that your change would make little difference to the usability of the spell.

A lot of stuff with SR: no is that way for a reason, and on the other side of things, a lot of spells without saves are balanced out by the fact that they target other defenses. It's kinda awkward to swing things the other direction. Overall, I would advise not just flipping this mighty switch, and instead making the change on a spell by spell basis, starting with cases you find particularly problematic.

[Fax Celestis]

The problem is that, while some spells like the orb line could easily just have that no changed to a yes relative to SR, other spells just don't make much sense as SR: yes. Like, how does spell resistance work on a wall of stone, or a summoning spell, or even polymorph? In that last case, SR would probably mean that you find it more difficult to buff SR having folks, but that means that your change would make little difference to the usability of the spell.

A lot of stuff with SR: no is that way for a reason, and on the other side of things, a lot of spells without saves are balanced out by the fact that they target other defenses. It's kinda awkward to swing things the other direction. Overall, I would advise not just flipping this mighty switch, and instead making the change on a spell by spell basis, starting with cases you find particularly problematic.

A surprising number od buff spells are already SR: yes (harmless).

[Bad Wolf]

Fluff wise, maybe all races have evolved to slightly resist magic? It doesn't seem that much of an adjustment.

[eggynack]

A surprising number od buff spells are already SR: yes (harmless).
I'm aware, though I don't have a good understanding of the exact numbers. The point is, making buff spells SR: yes isn't going to substantially change their functioning (or it does, but it makes SR worse, which I suspect is the wrong direction to go), so no matter what, you're always going to have that crunchy core of golem killers. I dunno, maybe that's fine, but my feeling is that that set of spells is what the OP takes issue with.

Edit:
Fluff wise, maybe all races have evolved to slightly resist magic? It doesn't seem that much of an adjustment.
The OP is talking about changing things from the spell side, rather than from the creature side, making SR more powerful rather than more ubiquitous (though the latter could follow).

[maniacalmojo]

Spells that make actual physical objects i could see not having a save but some spells that say evade all defenses, offer no save or DR in any way like celestial brilliance vs undead and such. I guess i would make the distinction that spells that affect a person offer as save regardless of what it is. AOE would have a reflex save for half, fog would either be considered illusion so you can peer through it or it creates actual fog so it just hinders the enviorment.. Not sure..

[maniacalmojo]

It just bothers me that there are things that just have no defense against. No save, armor does not help, dr is bypassed, spell resistance does not matter..

[heavyfuel]

Like everyone else said already, it's not going to stop OP casters and will just give you, or whoever is DMing, a load of trouble by reworking spells.

If I may present a simpler solution, just ban Tiers 1 and 2 from players. Yes, it works, yes, it is that simple. Season it up with by also taking the DMG suggestion to PrCs a bit more seriously, as in, not every PrC is readily available for anyone who meets prereqs, PrCs are rare and few. This avoids most low-tiers tricks like Rainbow Warmage.

Of course you still need to watch out for dirty tricks like d2 Crusader or the Factotum that has one bajilion Standard Actions per turn, but it shouldn't be anything a half good DM can't handle (by banning it on sight)

This honestly makes everyone happy. You know... Everyone except the guy that wants to break your game with a Tier 1. Players still have access to spells, but most of the broken stuff is out. From the top of my head I'd only ban Gate from the lower tiers list as a final touch. But your players can still blast with Warmage (but without the Sorcerer's additional versatility), use enchantments with the Beguiler, heal with the Healer, and Gish with the Duskblade.

[sleepyphoenixx]

What spells exactly are you having problems with? Because the list of no save, no SR spells isn't that long (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8913), and quite a few of the more powerful options require an attack roll instead.
The few that don't are mostly countered by things like Freedom of Movement, minor elemental resistances or similar stuff that PCs want to get anyway as they advance in levels. What little is left is either very specific, rather minor in effect or not offensive at all.


Like everyone else said already, it's not going to stop OP casters and will just give you, or whoever is DMing, a load of trouble by reworking spells.

If I may present a simpler solution, just ban Tiers 1 and 2 from players. Yes, it works, yes, it is that simple. Season it up with by also taking the DMG suggestion to PrCs a bit more seriously, as in, not every PrC is readily available for anyone who meets prereqs, PrCs are rare and few. This avoids most low-tiers tricks like Rainbow Warmage.

Of course you still need to watch out for dirty tricks like d2 Crusader or the Factotum that has one bajilion Standard Actions per turn, but it shouldn't be anything a half good DM can't handle (by banning it on sight)

This honestly makes everyone happy. You know... Everyone except the guy that wants to break your game with a Tier 1. Players still have access to spells, but most of the broken stuff is out. From the top of my head I'd only ban Gate from the lower tiers list as a final touch. But your players can still blast with Warmage (but without the Sorcerer's additional versatility), use enchantments with the Beguiler, heal with the Healer, and Gish with the Duskblade.

This is a pretty unfair generalization. It's quite possible to play a T1 caster without breaking the game, and many players consciously optimize downward when building their characters or focus their build on non-optimal things to adjust to their groups powerlevel.
Some people just like being the wizard or the druid, and there aren't really any good ways to fit that flavor if you limit class selection to T3 and lower.

[heavyfuel]

This is a pretty unfair generalization. It's quite possible to play a T1 caster without breaking the game, and many players consciously optimize downward when building their characters or focus their build on non-optimal things to adjust to their groups powerlevel.
Some people just like being the wizard or the druid, and there aren't really any good ways to fit that flavor if you limit class selection to T3 and lower.

Oh, but I wholeheartedly agree that it is possible to play T1 without breaking the game. I never said that it isn't. Unfortunately, these complaints about them being OP aren't because of the guy that don't know how to play them and think monks are good, or even about the guy that can play them on a power level that matches that of the group. No. These complaints arise because, probably, there is this one guy that is "that guy".

You know, the guy that read the Mailman guide and decided to implement it in a game with a Monk/Drunken Master and a single class Fighter. This can, and will, break that campaign. So the logical solution, IMO, is that if that guy can't control his power level, the DM should control it for him. The fairest way of doing this, again, IMO, is by outright banning T1s and T2s. He can still play T3s and be the most powerful guy in the group, but the power gap is better than it was before.

I speak of this from personal experience. The munchkin at my table who outshining everyone at every possible moment had to be brought down a notch, and this has worked perfectly so far. But of course the next bit should go without saying: YMMV.

[RolandDeschain]

I cast Acid Rain on this entire thread.

[Diachronos]

Yes, it would, actually.

Consider this: Pretty much any spell that allows a save is ideal to use against certain kinds of creatures. The thing is, the best saves of the creature types you'd want to use it on are almost always the kind of save that the spell allows.
Anything that isn't Undead? High Fortitude save.
Spells meant to crowd-control or destroy Undead specifically? They all allow a Will save, which is invariably the best save of an undead creature.
The only save that doesn't happen with is Reflex, and even then Reflex saves are usually for half (or lower) of the normal effect so if they pass you essentially wasted the spell.

And then there's the issue of SR. Bypassing SR without much trouble is only really possible at high levels or against low-CR creatures, and even then you run the risk of your roll not being high enough to have the spell do anything. No matter how powerful the spell is or how useful it would be in that situation, it's useless if you can't bypass SR.
Then you have the Magic Immunity trait, which basically gives creatures SR ∞. Picture this: You're a caster that likes to blast things. You've pretty much single-handedly taken out half of the enemies your party has faced up to this point. And now the DM throws your party against a Golem. You think to yourself, "This isn't a problem, I'll just use..." And then you realize that the only spells you have that affect enemies are ones that allow SR. Unless you've got access to healing or buffs, you're going to be watching the fights from the sidelines, because at least over there you're not going to die or get in the way.

Pretty much the only reason that Save: No and SR: No spells exist is so that you have something reliable to fall back on, even if it's weaker than your other spells.