Low level PCs, High level of corruption

[Rhunder]

In my new campaign, DnD 3.5(shouldn't matter), my PCs(now level 2) are challenging a large gang in a sea merchant town. The gang is well financed, has the numbers, and even a few guards on payroll. It creates a tough challenge that can't always be combat oriented. The problem is I may have made the gang to strong to beat.

The head of the gang is the prominent businessman in town. The PCs know this but have no proof. And openly challenging such a man is a bad move. The captain of the guard believes them but cant do much without proof. The sheer volume of low level members are too much for the PCs to take out. And the corrupt guards are an openly known thing but they can't prove or figure out which guards to trust.

I created the plan for the villain to win but after sharing with another friend, have considered they may be too tough to beat. So I've come to the playground and hopes of hearing some advice on the situation in helping the PCs.

[Rhunder]

The PCs have gone ab two ways of fighting the gang. Disturbing the businessman's businesses and locating the bad guards. The problem with those tasks, is neither are workin in favor of the PCs. They are investigating the jerk guard,who is actually good, while trusting the quiet protective guard, who is bad. And since he owns so many businesses, the mayor rather the gang leader remain unbothered without proof.

Eventually, the gang leader will invite the PCs, the mayor, the captain of the guard, and any high ranking official not on his payroll to a dinner party where they will be killed off one by one. Stole this from oblivion, but I know it's older, just not sure where it originated. From that point, the businessman will take over the town and "lower" crime rates, etc. Becoming the hero and controlling the town and citizens.

[Cazero]

That murder party looks like an awesome opportunity for the PC to find more trustworthy allies and convince the mayor to move his lazy ass. Even without evidence, the mayor might reconsider his position if the gang start going after his life.

On a radical way to deal with the gang boss. You can have a NPC who lost everything to the gang, and his volunteering to be framed for the murder of the boss. He would kill him himself, but he's not good enough. That opens a way for the players to get a murderhobo answer to their problem, provided the framing is believable. The mayor and other officials might be ok with it after the murder party, wich would make framing that much easier.

[BWR]

These are ideas for the PCs more than anything.

Charm some of the corrupt folks, use Bluff and/or Diplomacy to convince them to tell something to go on (maybe to his good friend, with the Captain hiding somewhere).

A highly persuasive character can start preaching about the evils of exortion, theft, bullying etc. play up on the horrors of hell and the rewards of heaven awaiting one after death. This won't convince everyone, but a few low-level thugs might very well be persuaded to stand aside should the situation turn confrontational. An acute case of conscience can be very useful. This works best if the talker is a divine character, obviously.

If your party isn't averse to some unpleasantry, kidnap some thugs and convince them to talk. 'Good cop, bad cop' can work. Or, knowing certain players, 'good cop, bad cop, Nietzschean cop' (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=3256&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+smbc-comics/PvLb+(Saturday+Morning+Breakfast+Cereal+(updated+d aily)))

Use Bluff and Sleight of Hand, Disguise and Stealth, etc., to plant evidence of an internal dispute. The XO of the gang is suddenly found with lots of money he's 'skimmed from the top', letters between him and a rival gang that wants to move in on this turf surface and make their way to the boss, a drunkard (whom no one recognizes) in the tavern lets slip some interesting hints about 'how things are going to change around here soon' when the boss's name is mentioned.

Go the 'Yojimbo' route - get hired as thugs and subtly sabotage things from within.

Perhaps even an assassination if the PCs are not too goody-goody and the bad guys are really despicable.

[Sith_Happens]

Use Bluff and Sleight of Hand, Disguise and Stealth, etc.,

This. Unless the party is mostly composed of strongly Lawful types (and maybe even then), the obvious response to "can't prove anything" is "fabricate some proof." If they don't eventually think of that themselves, then have an NPC suggest it.

[Rhunder]

So, overall the PCs are needing to do new things? And this isn't a no win situation, right?

[Blackhawk748]

So, overall the PCs are needing to do new things? And this isn't a no win situation, right?

Pretty much, really the only idea that is right out is "FULL FRONTAL ASSAULT!!!!" so they gotta be trixy

[jedipotter]

I

I created the plan for the villain to win but after sharing with another friend, have considered they may be too tough to beat. So I've come to the playground and hopes of hearing some advice on the situation in helping the PCs.

You have created an evil railroad of mistrust, but it is not hopeless, you can save the game.

First you need to make a pot of nice warm herbal tea. Then invite all your players over. Then as soon as the players all sit down, you must immediately throw yourself at their feet and cry. And cry hard, use onions or whatever you need to get the water works going. Cry and sob for at least several minutes. Then in between sobs, explain to them that your a bad DM. Beg mercy for your heinous crimes: You made the game a challenge and made the game a non combative challenge without the express knowledge and consent of the players. You hijacked the game with your own whims and made the characters little more then toys for your amusement. Have some tea and hug it out Entourage style. Then ask if the players will show mercy on you and allow you to still be the DM. If they all say yes, then you can all build the new game together. You can build the game together, nothing gonna stop you now. When this world runs out of gamers, you will all still have each other. Nothing gonna stop you now....

[Sith_Happens]

[Snip]

Um... Okay...

[Slipperychicken]

Level 2? The PCs are nobodies. You're not going to wage war against every schmuck who calls you out: that just draws attention to them and legitimizes their complaints. Unless they start trying to cause real trouble (that is, impacting the bottom line), the crime boss can pretty safely ignore them.

If the PCs are actually investigating or trying to hit the gang's bottom line, that's a different story. Then, the gang might try something like spiking the PCs' drinks with Drow Knockout Poison and giving them a pair of Masterwork Cement Shoes in an item-drop they'll never forget. If that doesn't work, they can try using some local girls to lure PCs (individually) up to private rooms where they'll peacefully disarm, disrobe, probably debuff themselves with drugs and distractions (-5 to perception for being distracted), and get ambushed.


The guards and town leadership are probably mostly paid off by the crime-boss, so even if they can catch this guy, they probably wouldn't want to.

[Rhunder]

The mayor and guard captain are not paid off. That said the mayor doesn't want to help or be a part of it if the businessman is part of it. (He is too rich and owns to much land) As for the party, they got involved by stopping a shake down and its escalated since then. I'm still new to DMing so I wasn't sure if this was too much since they are low level and just can't fight their way through.

[Sidmen]

Shouldn't the mayor actively WANT the incredibly rich and influential man to disappear? I mean, if it's found out that he's a crimelord, then all his assets are ripe for confiscation. Once confiscated the land, ships, and other assets can be sold at auction (closed, obviously) to his friends at coppers to the gold.

My suggestion is to make the mayor a little more ambitious and ruthless.

[Rhunder]

Shouldn't the mayor actively WANT the incredibly rich and influential man to disappear? I mean, if it's found out that he's a crimelord, then all his assets are ripe for confiscation. Once confiscated the land, ships, and other assets can be sold at auction (closed, obviously) to his friends at coppers to the gold.

My suggestion is to make the mayor a little more ambitious and ruthless.

This is a good viewpoint. I have him as a coward, especially with the city on edge(there has been minor riots), and that's why the businessman has the goal to "save" the city. Though I could add him wanting to be money grubbing.

[Sidmen]

Ah, if you want to leave the mayor as cowardly and inept, you could instead insert a deputy mayor with greed and ambitions who has been conspiring against the mayor to take his job (possibly being the reason things are so bad). He'd love nothing better than to topple a rival that has been working against him for so long.

[Rhunder]

Sidmen, that is awesome. Definitely implementing this bc I don't trust my PCs to change course.

[Blackhawk748]

i would recommend giving your players some hint that maybe their current tactics arent working, honestly having them not be attacked by thugs is a good one, because as we all know they only attack when your becoming a pain. Also maybe having a Good Urban Ranger give them a hand might help too, considering theres only two of them. And i dont mean have him tag along i mean have him be a contact.

[veti]

First off, it's not your job to make the players win. That's their job. If they can't come up with a winning plan, then they're going to lose.

And there's nothing wrong with that. They're level 2, fercryin'outloud. If they could win every battle at level 2, what's the point in even levelling any further?

You're playing D&D, not Oblivion. If you can't beat the enemy now, that means you just go away and do something else for a while, then come back when you're a force to be reckoned with.

[Curbstomp]

Give them an ally. Perhaps someone more ummm informed than they are.

[Knaight]

It sounds like a pretty reasonable situation, really. A straight fight is a bad idea, but I can easily think of a few other avenues of approach, and I'd imagine that at least one is worth looking into. With that said, if your players are used to a more closed style, I'd point a few things out.


If you want to investigate an option, you can do so. It doesn't need to be explicitly spelled out before hand - just because rival gangs haven't been mentioned yet doesn't mean they aren't there.
There are a lot of ways the situation could be handled, and you don't know all of them as the GM. You also don't require the players to find the solution that you have already thought of.


The first of these is useful in general. I've seen games get so closed that a PC won't even pick up a stick in a forest without first checking with the GM as to whether there's a stick. It's a forest. There's a stick. Similarly, there's a pretty sizable city with major criminal elements. It is going to be full of all sorts of things that don't make it into the high level description given of it. Gangs in conflict, other businessmen, personal enemies (there's no way that this guy has been running a gang long enough to get that much of a grip over the city without making enemies), whatever. They're there, they can be looked into, and those avenues are probably a good idea.

The second is a deliberate communication that you are not a GM that wants the players to read your mind and do things only your way, and that you're not playing "guess the GM's solution". There are enough lousy GMs for whom that is the case that distancing yourself from them is potentially useful.

With all that said - I'd bring in these other factions that likely exist, the ambitious deputy mayor, etc. It's not even about helping the PCs, it's about stirring the pot. The city is theoretically a bit of a mess rife with conflict. So lets see the mess. Faction after faction, character after character, conflict after conflict. The more, the merrier. Obviously there's a point past which this just gets clutter, but from the sounds of things you've basically got the corrupt guards, the non-corrupt guards, the gang, and the mayor. That's four factions, and an undetermined number of characters that sounds like at least four which have been decently developed.

You're nowhere near the clutter stage. Another 5 notable groups is just the thing for this. Some more developed side characters showing up is just the thing. They don't need to be movers and shakers - the last more intrigue based arc I ran involved the likes of the alcoholic layabout son of the prefect and his dutiful cousin who looked after him, and they were still involved.

[Rhunder]

Knaight, this is just sound advise regardless of campaign. I really wish I came across this when I did my first campaign. I'm always worried ab presenting too much information too quickly to players but when I'm a player I always want as much as possible. So I'll try to let them know it's a lively city and to assume there are more elements than what I have specifically pointed out. And see if their imagination opens up.

[Knaight]

Knaight, this is just sound advise regardless of campaign. I really wish I came across this when I did my first campaign. I'm always worried ab presenting too much information too quickly to players but when I'm a player I always want as much as possible. So I'll try to let them know it's a lively city and to assume there are more elements than what I have specifically pointed out. And see if their imagination opens up.

It is pretty general advice, applicable to any campaign. I've found it tends to be particularly relevant in campaigns set in more open, more varied environs. The dungeon environment can be detailed pretty thoroughly, and not thinking in terms of unspecified but usable elements doesn't really affect much there.

It's also a bit of a different mode of thinking than some players are used to, particularly if they're used to GMs which discourage it (and one does occasionally see something to the effect of "You can't just say your character picks up a stick. I didn't say there were any sticks in this forest. Stop backseat DMing"), so getting that mode up either explicitly or through general demeanor helps.


Then in between sobs, explain to them that your a bad DM. Beg mercy for your heinous crimes: You made the game a challenge and made the game a non combative challenge without the express knowledge and consent of the players. You hijacked the game with your own whims and made the characters little more then toys for your amusement. Have some tea and hug it out Entourage style. Then ask if the players will show mercy on you and allow you to still be the DM. If they all say yes, then you can all build the new game together. You can build the game together, nothing gonna stop you now. When this world runs out of gamers, you will all still have each other. Nothing gonna stop you now....

What in the world are you talking about? I don't know where you're getting this "made the characters little more than toys for your amusement", seeing as the depicted situation gives the players far, far more leeway to actually depict the characters character than ye old generic dungeon ever will. I'm not seeing the game hijacking, as the action looks pretty highly player driven. The game actually is being built together, there's no railroad plot, the players are driving things.

This is what a modern game often looks like. Funny how you're trying to spin it as if it's something modern gamers are opposed to.

[Garimeth]

What in the world are you talking about? I don't know where you're getting this "made the characters little more than toys for your amusement", seeing as the depicted situation gives the players far, far more leeway to actually depict the characters character than ye old generic dungeon ever will. I'm not seeing the game hijacking, as the action looks pretty highly player driven. The game actually is being built together, there's no railroad plot, the players are driving things.

This is what a modern game often looks like. Funny how you're trying to spin it as if it's something modern gamers are opposed to.

He rolled a 1 on Craft: (Joke).

[Lord Torath]

You could also have a mid-level member of the gang decide he's done, and try to leave. The PC's stumble upon the gang's response to this and rescue the poor sod, who then turns "state's witness," or even just points out who one or two of the bought guardsmen are.

Or, while investigating Jerk-But-Honest, they stumble upon something proving Quiet-but-Treacherous is on the BBEG's payroll. Just remember the 3-clue rule. Drop clues showing that Jerk doesn't take advantage of opportunities for corruption (he is witnessed refusing a bribe, or turns all 11 of the recovered gems in to the captain without any attempt to keep any back, when he thinks he's the only witness), while showing that Quiet does.

Once the PC's are certain of one corrupt guard, they can start making progress.

Along the lines of the Three-Clue-Rule, have you dropped enough clues as to which guard is which? Without clues, the PCs have no hope of uncovering the plot.

[Earthwalker]

See you already have an NPC you can use to help the PCs. I would prefer that after one of the PCs encounters with the gang you introduce a new NPC, some high level guard that goes on about them bumbling around and wasting 3 months of undercover work.... just coz I like that trope.

Then you can use show not tell with the NPC.

How do you find the corrupt guard among 5 ? You tell each guard that a different safe house of the gang is getting raided. Then which ever safe house is abandoned on the day of the raid points to the corrupt guard.

How do you take down a big gang ? You break it down. get them fighting against themselves.

[Berenger]

The head of the gang is the prominent businessman in town. The PCs know this but have no proof. And openly challenging such a man is a bad move. The captain of the guard believes them but cant do much without proof.

Proof?

Medieval and early modern legal systems tend to include a healthy dose of Might Makes Right. Smashing some heads and doors, rounding up everyone in the culprits house and fetching the literal thumbscrews to effect some confessions should be a legitimate option for the captain of the guard, so it's just about getting some reliable reinforcements to do so over the dead bodies of the crime lords bodyguards and everyone else standing in your way. Thats not just and fair by modern standards? Cry me a river. :smallamused:

[Sidmen]

Proof?

Medieval and early modern legal systems tend to include a healthy dose of Might Makes Right. Smashing some heads and doors, rounding up everyone in the culprits house and fetching the literal thumbscrews to effect some confessions should be a legitimate option for the captain of the guard, so it's just about getting some reliable reinforcements to do so over the dead bodies of the crime lords bodyguards and everyone else standing in your way. Thats not just and fair by modern standards? Cry me a river. :smallamused:

That's how you deal with peasants or freemen, it is most certainly NOT how you deal with a powerful and well-connected merchant. Especially one that almost certainly has enough retainers to fend off an assault on his assets. As a captain of the guard, you'd have to worry about starting a mini-civil war in the streets, and about being executed by either the mayor, the lord who appointed you to the town, or the king (if the merchant's connections run that high) whether you're right or wrong in the arrest.

As a captain of the guard, you need to be able to stand up before the court and present a case that what you did was not only the right and legal thing to do, but that it was necessary to do it. If the mayor ordered the arrest, you don't need to bother with any evidence, but you aren't at the top of the totem pole.