Sorcerers and known spells

[OrlockDelesian]

I noticed, that while the bard gets a tottal of 22 spells and the same slots as a Sorcerer, the Sorcerer gains a tottal of only 15 spells known.
Do you find that logical?

[linklele]

Now the bard is considered a full caster.
The compensation for the sorcerer is that he can actually have more spell slots per day thanks to his sorcerous points.

[OrlockDelesian]

Still it seems that the Sorcerer got the short end of it.
A bard can do way more things than a Sorcerer, has more hps, more proficiensies, inspiration, and can leanr spells from any class as well.
They buffed him up pretty good

[Yorrin]

Yeah, this isn't a matter of "Sorcerers are bad" so much as "Bards got crazy strong."

[Giant2005]

The Sorc Spell List is much, much better than the Bard's.

[metaridley18]

The Sorc Spell List is much, much better than the Bard's.

Although 6 of the Bard's spells known are from any spell list, which is extremely potent.

[TheOOB]

Sorcerers know very few spells, but the spells they do know are very strong, and they have a lot of flexibility with sorcery points. Sorcerers will be upcasting and metamagicing a lot.

If you want to be very very good at a very specific set of spells, sorc is your man.

[Kaiisaxo]

Sorcerers know very few spells, but the spells they do know are very strong, and they have a lot of flexibility with sorcery points. Sorcerers will be upcasting and metamagicing a lot.

If you want to be very very good at a very specific set of spells, sorc is your man.

More like if you want to be a superb blaster, pick sorcerer. Right now sorcerer out of combat utility is severely restricted and gimped. And moreover by no longer having access to all simple weapons, which puts a bigger strain into known spells. If sorcerers had all simple weapons they would be able to dedicate all spells known to utility, but since they lack them they have to dedicate part of their spells known (and slots) into combat and that is a heavy strain to so little spells known. A wizard can get away with toy guns because they know so many spells and bring a decent amount of them into combat, plus arcane recovery and free magic in the form of ritual casting. It is ok if they didn't give sorcerers costly spells, but they have been denied other utility ones for no discernible reason.

[Beige]

sorcerer have changed now from being spontaneous wizards, which now is more the bards main cup of tea.

it's probably best to think of a 5e sorcerer as a new class rather than an adaptation of the old one. sorcerers now have the most limited utility of all the full-spellcasters. however, as the trade-off, you are the best at actually casting spells - what with having the most spells per day and the only person with metamagic.

plus, you can swap out your spells each level, so you won't be straddled with spells that are no longer useful

[TheOOB]

More like if you want to be a superb blaster, pick sorcerer. Right now sorcerer out of combat utility is severely restricted and gimped. And moreover by no longer having access to all simple weapons, which puts a bigger strain into known spells. If sorcerers had all simple weapons they would be able to dedicate all spells known to utility, but since they lack them they have to dedicate part of their spells known (and slots) into combat and that is a heavy strain to so little spells known. A wizard can get away with toy guns because they know so many spells and bring a decent amount of them into combat, plus arcane recovery and free magic in the form of ritual casting. It is ok if they didn't give sorcerers costly spells, but they have been denied other utility ones for no discernible reason.

You could give a sorc martial weapon prof and it wouldn't matter much. Without any abilities to increase weapon damage in some form you have about 5-6 levels before weapons becomes use-impaired.

[DeAnno]

Metamagic is huge deal, to the point where at late levels I see Sorcs being mostly willing to burn off their lower level slots to fuel more of it. Quicken effectively lets you cast a Cantrip in addition to your other spell that turn, and you can even metamagic that Cantrip. This is especially important in any sort of caster duel because of how Counterspell has changed and is more reliable now, and the situation is exacerbated by Sorcerers being able to double their vital Counterspelling range if specced for it; a Sorcerer can easily overcome the action economy of another caster while simultaneously suffocating it with counterspells.

Twin and Heighten shenanigans are also impressive (Twin rather more, but Heighten has the advantage that near-certainty always does), and even the mathematically rather weak Empower could be useful if you're trying to set up a dedicated damage engine. At higher levels blowing even your 1-3 level slots results in huge amounts of spell points (+32 +19, missed the rate difference) and facilitates the reasonable strategy of mixing up spammed, metamagicked Cantrips with larger spells.

I highly approve of this version of Sorc from what I see so far. It is a large sacrifice in utility compared to other full casters in exchange for what amounts to brute force.

[JamesT]

Metamagic is huge deal, to the point where at late levels I see Sorcs being mostly willing to burn off their lower level slots to fuel more of it. Quicken effectively lets you cast a Cantrip in addition to your other spell that turn, and you can even metamagic that Cantrip. This is especially important in any sort of caster duel because of how Counterspell has changed and is more reliable now, and the situation is exacerbated by Sorcerers being able to double their vital Counterspelling range if specced for it; a Sorcerer can easily overcome the action economy of another caster while simultaneously suffocating it with counterspells.

Twin and Heighten shenanigans are also impressive (Twin rather more, but Heighten has the advantage that near-certainty always does), and even the mathematically rather weak Empower could be useful if you're trying to set up a dedicated damage engine. At higher levels blowing even your 1-3 level slots results in huge amounts of spell points (+32) and facilitates the reasonable strategy of mixing up spammed, metamagicked Cantrips with larger spells.

I highly approve of this version of Sorc from what I see so far. It is a large sacrifice in utility compared to other full casters in exchange for what amounts to brute force.

Somehow I had overlooked that you can also convert spell slots into sorcery points, until you posted this. That's intriguing... I'd say at low levels it's great to add spell slots spending sorcery points, and as you get higher in level the reverse can easily become true.

[Shining Wrath]

The sorcerer gets more cantrips than any other class, and they get some good ones. IIRC it's 4 max for the bard, 6 max for the sorcerer. Since you must expect to use your cantrips a lot, this helps offset the lack of higher level spells. Sorcerers are less flexible in the higher level stuff, but more flexible in the stuff that you'll probably use every single encounter.

Looking only at full-caster magic use, I think metamagic is the most powerful class feature. It's better than ritual casting or warlock invocations IMNSHO.

[Diarmuid]

Depending on the variants used (feats or no feats), there's no reason a Sorc couldnt pick up Ritual Casting too, right? Heck from memory, I didnt see any reason why a Fighter couldnt pick up Ritual Casting as a feat.

[Beige]

Depending on the variants used (feats or no feats), there's no reason a Sorc couldnt pick up Ritual Casting too, right? Heck from memory, I didnt see any reason why a Fighter couldnt pick up Ritual Casting as a feat.

you are correct - everyone can have ritual casting to buff their number of out of combat utility spells XD

[Shining Wrath]

Depending on the variants used (feats or no feats), there's no reason a Sorc couldnt pick up Ritual Casting too, right? Heck from memory, I didnt see any reason why a Fighter couldnt pick up Ritual Casting as a feat.

There's one sort-of reason: you qualify for RC with either Int or Wis, neither of which is important to the Sorcerer.

[hawklost]

There's one sort-of reason: you qualify for RC with either Int or Wis, neither of which is important to the Sorcerer.

Most Rituals do not have a DC component to them so having a low Int/Wis does not harm to caster in Rituals.

[Shining Wrath]

Most Rituals do not have a DC component to them so having a low Int/Wis does not harm to caster in Rituals.

Int or Wis of 13 is a prerequisite for the feat itself.

[Beige]

Int or Wis of 13 is a prerequisite for the feat itself.

true, but assuming the base array, you'll have stat points enough to dedicate there

guessing the 15 to charisma, the 14 to con,then the 13 can go to either - especially since almost all stats are now worthwhile to buff due to saves:smallsmile:

[Shadow]

If sorcerers had all simple weapons they would be able to dedicate all spells known to utility, but since they lack them they have to dedicate part of their spells known (and slots) into combat and that is a heavy strain to so little spells known.

The fact that one of thier class equipment options is (a) a light crossbow and 20 bolts or (b) any simple
weapon imlpies that thier listed weapon proficiencies were an unedited copy/paste holdover from wizards, and that they were in fact intended to be proficient in all simple weapons.

[Kaiisaxo]

Depending on the variants used (feats or no feats), there's no reason a Sorc couldnt pick up Ritual Casting too, right? Heck from memory, I didnt see any reason why a Fighter couldnt pick up Ritual Casting as a feat.

There is one reason, it goes completely against the flavor of the sorcerer, "I'm so magical that I need to carry a book around with wizard spells in order to have any practical magic to demonstrate that isn't frying stuff" is fairly pathetic, there should be only three reasons for a sorcerer to carry a book, a) it is an interesting novel b) it is a decoy to fool people who know nothing about sorcerers c) to hide weapons/as an improvised weapon.


The fact that one of thier class equipment options is (a) a light crossbow and 20 bolts or (b) any simple
weapon imlpies that thier listed weapon proficiencies were an unedited copy/paste holdover from wizards, and that they were in fact intended to be proficient in all simple weapons.

That is what I hope, but it seems that perhaps the equipment is the mistake and that they removed simple weapons later in development.

[Shining Wrath]

true, but assuming the base array, you'll have stat points enough to dedicate there

guessing the 15 to charisma, the 14 to con,then the 13 can go to either - especially since almost all stats are now worthwhile to buff due to saves:smallsmile:

If you're doing as many ranged touch attacks as a sorcerer, plus wearing light / medium armor, you are using Dexterity for your tertiary stat.

So 15 / 14 /13 are likely to be used, but I suppose an argument could be made that 12 is as good as 13 for Dexterity, if you never expect to come across an item that boosts Dexterity.

BTW, with the new minimalist system, I think an item of +1 to stat ought to be viable.

[Shadow]

If you're doing as many ranged touch attacks as a sorcerer, plus wearing light / medium armor, you are using Dexterity for your tertiary stat.

So 15 / 14 /13 are likely to be used, but I suppose an argument could be made that 12 is as good as 13 for Dexterity, if you never expect to come across an item that boosts Dexterity.

BTW, with the new minimalist system, I think an item of +1 to stat ought to be viable.

Well, using ranged attacks as a sorcerer, if using the core rules as written and mot multiclassing, means your ranged attack is a sling (1d4+dex), a dart (1d4+dex) or a light crossbow (1d8+dex, loading) or a cantrip (which doesn't require dex at all). The only one of those optins that makes dex a tertiary stat is a light crossbow, because cantrips will scale better than the extra damage from your dex raising for dart/sling.
And speaking specifically about sorc, your cantrips scale better than most anyway if you're dragonblooded, making it a clear winner against any ranged weapons you're inherently proficient with.
Better range, better damage once you hit 6th level (and comparable before that), better riders if you choose certain ones, no ammo needed, etc.

As to stat bonus of +1, I haven't seen any. The only stat boosting items I've seen so far are reminiscent of some of 2e's items, where instead of adding to a stat it simply raised said stat to a static number. Time will tell if this apllies in all cases or if they're varied.

[Shining Wrath]

Well, using ranged attacks as a sorcerer, if using the core rules as written and mot multiclassing, means your ranged attack is a sling (1d4+dex), a dart (1d4+dex) or a light crossbow (1d8+dex, loading) or a cantrip (which doesn't require dex at all). The only one of those optins that makes dex a tertiary stat is a light crossbow, because cantrips will scale better than the extra damage from your dex raising for dart/sling.
And speaking specifically about sorc, your cantrips scale better than most anyway if you're dragonblooded, making it a clear winner against any ranged weapons you're inherently proficient with.
Better range, better damage once you hit 6th level (and comparable before that), better riders if you choose certain ones, no ammo needed, etc.

As to stat bonus of +1, I haven't seen any. The only stat boosting items I've seen so far are reminiscent of some of 2e's items, where instead of adding to a stat it simply raised said stat to a static number. Time will tell if this apllies in all cases or if they're varied.

IIRC Chill Touch among other cantrips requires a ranged touch attack a la 3.5 rays etc.

[Shadow]

IIRC Chill Touch among other cantrips requires a ranged touch attack a la 3.5 rays etc.

No such thing as a ranged touch attack. It has a ranged spell attack, which uses your casting stat (just like ray of frost).

[Shining Wrath]

No such thing as a ranged touch attack. It has a ranged spell attack, which uses your casting stat (just like ray of frost).

Ah. That's an improvement for casters but a blow against Dex.

[Shadow]

Ah. That's an improvement for casters but a blow against Dex.

To which Dex responded by allowing ranged and finesse attacks to add a damage bonus, and to which Bouned Accuracy reponded by making lower ACs much more meaningful.
Dex is still useful to casters for both of those reasons.