Templates with no LA listed... not meant for pcs?

[Dominuce2112]

I am looking at the wood element template in the Manual of the Planes (pg 196). I would like to apply it to my character but it doesnt state the level adjust. It gives a CR increase..albeit it not the simplest of increases but still. I dont know what a good LA would be for it.


Basically I am trying to gain the plant subtype and its immunities. I have a **** ton of gold and xp and although I could get the individual immunities separately this would be much more convenient and I can make it fit within the story.


Any ideas? thoughts? suggestions on what the LA should be?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

According to the 3.5 Update Booklet (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a), the Wood Element template has a +5 LA.

[Dominuce2112]

According to the 3.5 Update Booklet (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a), the Wood Element template has a +5 LA.


DANG +5!? wtH!?! that seems so steep. Guess I gotta keep looking.

[Inevitability]

In general; most templates without LA have been updated to get one. If they haven't, then it is LA +0, by strict RAW.

If a template is not meant for PC's, the LA is --.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

DANG +5!? wtH!?! that seems so steep. Guess I gotta keep looking.

It gives a ton of immunities and benefits that are more valuable to a PC than a monster.

What exactly do you want this character to do?

[atemu1234]

I never got the update booklet, I've just been using Savage Species for approximating LA...

[OldTrees1]

In general; most templates without LA have been updated to get one. If they haven't, then it is LA +0, by strict RAW.

If a template is not meant for PC's, the LA is --.

You might want to mention that
1) That is a controversial position
2) That it is the "most DM will reject this" kind of "strict RAW"

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In general; most templates without LA have been updated to get one. If they haven't, then it is LA +0, by strict RAW.

If a template is not meant for PC's, the LA is --.

Most 3.0 templates have been updated to show a LA, but a lack of a LA entry is an indication that a 3.5 update is needed, not that it defaults to LA +0.

[Dominuce2112]

It gives a ton of immunities and benefits that are more valuable to a PC than a monster.

What exactly do you want this character to do?

I just want the plant immunities. Poison, sneak attack and mind control.

I mean undead get all those and more and there at least 2 templates I can think of that are 0 LA. I can't go undead tho. Story stuff would never allow that.

[sakuuya]

I just want the plant immunities. Poison, sneak attack and mind control.

I mean undead get all those and more and there at least 2 templates I can think of that are 0 LA. I can't go undead tho. Story stuff would never allow that.

The Woodling template from MM3 might work for you. It doesn't actually change your type, but it does give full plant immunities (and a smattering of other stuff) for LA +3. Still a little steep for a PC, but not as bad as Wood Creature.

[Urpriest]

I never got the update booklet, I've just been using Savage Species for approximating LA...

The update booklet isn't something you "get", it was downloadable for free on the site.

[StreamOfTheSky]

In general; most templates without LA have been updated to get one. If they haven't, then it is LA +0, by strict RAW.

If a template is not meant for PC's, the LA is --.

Yet another sterling example of why no one ever plays by strict RAW.

[atemu1234]

I just want the plant immunities. Poison, sneak attack and mind control.

I mean undead get all those and more and there at least 2 templates I can think of that are 0 LA. I can't go undead tho. Story stuff would never allow that.

Still don't get why necropolitans are LA +0. Still seems a bit too good, especially seeing as things like Hobgoblins are LA +1.

[Urpriest]

Still don't get why necropolitans are LA +0. Still seems a bit too good, especially seeing as things like Hobgoblins are LA +1.

Taking into account the XP cost they're more like LA +1/2...but yeah, it's not terribly balanced with other races. Then again, Hobgoblins really should just be LA +0.

[Psyren]

Still don't get why necropolitans are LA +0. Still seems a bit too good, especially seeing as things like Hobgoblins are LA +1.

They're actually LA +1, it's just that you immediately buy it off as part of getting the template.

Also, Hobgoblins are overcosted so don't judge anything by them. If you want to play one I suggest the PF version. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/hobgoblin) (Same for Blues.)

[Lord Vukodlak]

Also, Hobgoblins are overcosted so don't judge anything by them. If you want to play one I suggest the PF version. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/hobgoblin)
You do realize that aside from Move Silently and Hide being one skill in PF there isn't a difference between the two right? Unless you're actually playing pathfinder just remove the LA.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I just want the plant immunities. Poison, sneak attack and mind control.

I mean undead get all those and more and there at least 2 templates I can think of that are 0 LA. I can't go undead tho. Story stuff would never allow that.

You could make the character a Warforged in MM3 and various Eberron books. That has the Living Construct subtype, which has tons of immunities, though it doesn't give you immunity to sneak attack and mind-affecting right off the bat. You could spend a feat on Improved Fortification in MM3 and be immune to critical hits and sneak attacks, but you wouldn't be able to be healed by Conjuration (Healing) spells any more.

Also keep in mind that there are tons of magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) as well as spells that can grant you these immunities.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Still don't get why necropolitans are LA +0. Still seems a bit too good, especially seeing as things like Hobgoblins are LA +1.

Well, first off most LA +1 races are not worth LA +1 and no one ever plays them outside of LA buy-off games.

That said...Necropolitan gives the undead type and its immunities, but not really anything else. You can dumpstat Con, but on the other hand...you get nothing to replace it as a bonus to hp, and you also are destroyed at 0 hp w/o that cushion (which outside of core is worth more than just 10 hp, it also means being able to benefit from Close Wounds and such other life-savers at all). Then you need different "healing" spells than everyone else. All considered, a Necropolitan has to be very cautious, even with the d12 HD they end up feeling very fragile. They're a strong choice, but I don't think they're overpowered, unless your DM lets you do the ritual in an Unhallow or whatever spell it is that gives huge boons to undead created in it. That is abusive.

If anything, Warforged is the ridiculous LA +0...

[ShurikVch]

Most 3.0 templates have been updated to show a LA, but a lack of a LA entry is an indication that a 3.5 update is needed, not that it defaults to LA +0.
And what if 3.5 template doesn't have a LA (i. e. "not mentioned", not "LA -")?
Cauldron Spawn wasn't even published before 3.5, but still have no LA
Petitioner (from MotP) actually updated to 3.5 in booklet, but, again, no LA

[Urpriest]

And what if 3.5 template doesn't have a LA (i. e. "not mentioned", not "LA -")?
Cauldron Spawn wasn't even published before 3.5, but still have no LA
Petitioner (from MotP) actually updated to 3.5 in booklet, but, again, no LA

Leaving off an LA in the booklet is the same as leaving off an updated DR or the like: regrettably common, and primarily a sign that someone at WotC needs to be smacked.

Cauldron Spawn was from Dragon, again not an especially well-edited source.

[ShurikVch]

Leaving off an LA in the booklet is the same as leaving off an updated DR or the like: regrettably common, and primarily a sign that someone at WotC needs to be smacked.

Cauldron Spawn was from Dragon, again not an especially well-edited source.
Half-Illithid (Underdark)

[Urpriest]

Half-Illithid (Underdark)

Already had a level adjustment, the reprinting doesn't change it RAW anyways since it's not mentioned one way or the other.

Look, if you want to argue that there are templates that intentionally lack LA values (and not merely due to designer mistakes), you're going to have to show that those templates are disproportionately neutral in terms of character power, or otherwise balanced with LA +0 races. And I don't see any attempt to do that.

[Dominuce2112]

I already made the character. The DM i play with allows templates to be added if I can pay the xp cost and make it fit story wise.

I think I may just have to buy an item of constant plant body, or reach for a miracle (which by the rules a 1 time use miracle only cost like 7.8k or something.. doesnt seem right even if I have to pay the 5k exp cost.) since I have my god in my hands and an avatar next my house. (long story)

[Urpriest]

I already made the character. The DM i play with allows templates to be added if I can pay the xp cost and make it fit story wise.


What XP cost? Do you mean use a Savage Species ritual? Or the cost to do LA buyoff?

[Chronos]

Hobgoblins and blues sit in that awkward area where they're too good to be LA 0 but not good enough to be LA 1. WotC had to choose which to make them, and they chose to err on the high side instead of the low side. Which, I believe, was the correct choice: Having them be too high doesn't really do any harm to the game-- It's no worse than if those races didn't exist at all. Except, of course, they can still be NPCs. Having them too low, though, would lead to a world where every wizard is a blue and every fighter is a hobgoblin (or at least, a very large number of them), and that puts a serious strain on the game.

As for why the plant type costs more LA than the undead type, even though the undead type has more benefits: Remember, the undead type also has more drawbacks. As a plant, you won't get turned, or dusted by a Sunbeam, or holy watered, or whatever.

[Necroticplague]

As for why the plant type costs more LA than the undead type, even though the undead type has more benefits: Remember, the undead type also has more drawbacks. As a plant, you won't get turned, or dusted by a Sunbeam, or holy watered, or whatever.

Plants also have a lot of spells that hurt them especially hard, especially in sandstorm. Turn Plants does exist, as does Horrid Wilting, Repel Woof, Antilife Shell, Dessicate, Wither, Antiplant shell, Parching Touch, just off my head. The main advantage plants have that undead don't is also a disadvantage: plants still have a CON score, and thus get HP/level. This is also a disadvantage because it means they miss out of the excellent "immune to many FORT saves" aspect and can be targeted by things affecting living creatures.

Meanwhile, both types (assuming the creature was human or human-related originally) can take human heritage to become a humanoid, letting them eat their cake and have it too.

[atemu1234]

Plants also have a lot of spells that hurt them especially hard, especially in sandstorm. Turn Plants does exist, as does Horrid Wilting, Repel Woof, Antilife Shell, Dessicate, Wither, Antiplant shell, Parching Touch, just off my head. The main advantage plants have that undead don't is also a disadvantage: plants still have a CON score, and thus get HP/level. This is also a disadvantage because it means they miss out of the excellent "immune to many FORT saves" aspect and can be targeted by things affecting living creatures.

Meanwhile, both types (assuming the creature was human or human-related originally) can take human heritage to become a humanoid, letting them eat their cake and have it too.

However, Undead are more common and therein it's more likely PCs will be prepared for them.

Also is there any standard class with the ability to turn plants? I didn't think so. Of course, earth subtype still shows up quite a bit.

[Necroticplague]

However, Undead are more common and therein it's more likely PCs will be prepared for them.

Also is there any standard class with the ability to turn plants? I didn't think so. Of course, earth subtype still shows up quite a bit.

1. Irrelevant. They both have a large amount of things that specifically target them, or are more effective against them. That players often choose to take on instead of the other has no bearing on the existence of the other. Especially given how we're talking about having it as a PC, in which case the other party member's choice of "anti" is irrelevant.

2. Druids get Control Plants, Clerics with the Plant domain can rebuke/control plants. So yes, and the fact you didn't think so was wrong. Druids,Rangers, and Archivists easily qualify for Plant Defiance.

[atemu1234]

1. Irrelevant. They both have a large amount of things that specifically target them, or are more effective against them. That players often choose to take on instead of the other has no bearing on the existence of the other. Especially given how we're talking about having it as a PC, in which case the other party member's choice of "anti" is irrelevant.

2. Druids get Control Plants, Clerics with the Plant domain can rebuke/control plants. So yes, and the fact you didn't think so was wrong. Druids,Rangers, and Archivists easily qualify for Plant Defiance.

When was the last time a Cleric took the plant domain?

Seriously, I'm not counting domain turning mostly because not everyone takes the same domains, and almost no PCs take the plant domain.

[Lord Vukodlak]

1. Irrelevant. They both have a large amount of things that specifically target them, or are more effective against them. That players often choose to take on instead of the other has no bearing on the existence of the other. Especially given how we're talking about having it as a PC, in which case the other party member's choice of "anti" is irrelevant.

No its perfectly relevant because spells that are designed to effect undead ARE FAR more common then spells designed to negatively effect plant creatures. Probably because undead are a far more common problem then plant creatures. And which do you think is more likely cause a panic if it goes strolling into town, a plant creature or an undead creature.

Furthermore plant PC's can benefit from the same healing effects normal PC's use.
Cure spells, heal, the vigor line of spells(which require a living creature). Undead need there own methods of healing that damage the living but not enough to justify using much resources on it as a weapon.

And of course bringing back destroyed undead is rather difficult, revive undead will work for regular destruction but there is no resurrection spell equivalent for undead creatures. If an undead PC gets disintegrated or otherwise has there body torn apart you can bring them back as a living creature but not an undead creature.

[Inevitability]

Hobgoblins and blues sit in that awkward area where they're too good to be LA 0 but not good enough to be LA 1. WotC had to choose which to make them, and they chose to err on the high side instead of the low side. Which, I believe, was the correct choice: Having them be too high doesn't really do any harm to the game-- It's no worse than if those races didn't exist at all. Except, of course, they can still be NPCs. Having them too low, though, would lead to a world where every wizard is a blue and every fighter is a hobgoblin (or at least, a very large number of them), and that puts a serious strain on the game.

Except that races like Lesser Aasimar, Dragonwrought kobolds, Incarnate Construct {+2 LA template} Warforged, or even plain humans/lightfoot halflings are still stronger.

[Necroticplague]

Except that races like Lesser Aasimar, Dragonwrought kobolds, Incarnate Construct {+2 LA template} Warforged, or even plain humans/lightfoot halflings are still stronger.

Correction: Incarnate Construct is LA-2, not LA+2.

[Urpriest]

Correction: Incarnate Construct is LA-2, not LA+2.

Pretty sure Dire_Stirge means Warforged who have an LA+2 template, then get Incarnated, for a net LA +0.

[Chronos]

Lesser planetouched are from a footnote that received very little editorial (or even authorial) attention, and are restricted to a specific and high-powered setting. Dragonwrought kobolds have a high optimization ceiling, but are not particularly powerful absent that optimization (though something that changes that much with optimization level is probably bad game design). Incarnate Construct is a mess of rules, and at the time it came out, was almost impossible to use with anything that existed in the game. In the few cases where it was usable at the time it was written, it was reasonably balanced. And in any event, pointing out other places where they did get it wrong doesn't change the places where they got it right.

[Dominuce2112]

Problem solved people. I was able to put an on command plant body effect on me. Tons of money, extra for it being a wonderous slot (wings) and a good craft roll but I am now able to speak a command word and gain all the plant immunities for 90 mins and fly.