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Elderand
2014-08-31, 07:56 AM
I decided to update the immortal rules, specificly those of wrath of the immortals modules from the BECMI edition of dnd, to 3.5.
These rules offer an alternative to the deity and demigods rules.

This is very much a WIP and I'll be posting the conversion piecemeal in whatever order I do them. This won't at first be a very structured work that I'll be reorganizing as I go along.

The three forms

Common to all three forms:
Universal communication: In spirit form an immortal can speak and understand every language
Telepathy: An immortal in spirit form can communicate telepathically with any creature it can perceive. This is a mind affecting effect.
Shifting: An immortal can shift to any of it's forms as a full round action.


The spirit form
Immaterial: An immortal in spirit form is incapable of interacting with the world (but he can be seen and can talk) and can pass through all matter and magical effect unimpeded.
He is immune to all form of attack or interaction from the world. He is entirely immune to magical and physical attacks with the exception of the immortal probe and power attack spells to which it apply its anti-magic normally.

A form you are comfortable with: While in spirit form an immortal can look like anything it wants, but can never be mistaken for real, his spiritual nature is always evident. The three appearances most often taken by immortals are:
- A ball of light (that doesn’t provide any illumination)
- A translucent version of any of the immortal embodied form
- A glowing version of the holy symbol used by the immortal’s religion (that doesn’t provide any illumination)

Limited magic: An immortal in spirit form has limited magical capabilities, he is only able to cast mortal spells that allow for travel, such as teleportation and planar travel spells but he can do at will, at no cost, without any need for components and his caster level for such spell is equal to twice his HD. These spells can only affect the immortal himself.
The immortal is also able to cast the probe, power attack and probe shield spells at normal cost.

Omens: An immortal in spirit form is capable of controlling the dreams of any number mortal creatures in a 180’ radius and can do so from the ethereal plane if it wishes.

Travel: An immortal in spirit form is capable of flying at a base speed of 240’ with perfect maneuvrability. When in a hurry an immortal can travel at a base speed of 24 miles but doing so makes him unable of perceiving any details.

Stealthy: With the exception of the use of it's immortal spells, an immortal in spirit form and it's abilities never triggers the detect immortal magic immortal spell.

Mortal form
An immortal can create a mortal form via the use of the create mortal form immortal spell.

Stealthy: an immortal in mortal form will never register as nothing but completely mortal, no magic can divine his true nature and immortal spells do not pick up on his nature.
An immortal in mortal has no access to any of the immortal powers except for the abilities common to all forms. He otherwise function as normal mortal creature.

Aging: When an immortal shift out of mortal form and then reassume it some time later, the form will have aged normally.

Death: If an immortal is slain while in mortal form he will be sent banished to his home plane and trapped in manifestation form for the next 48 hours. (As counted on the prime material plane, not time as counted on the home plane of the immortal).

An immortal can recreate an identical mortal identity if he so wishes.

nonsi
2014-08-31, 11:06 AM
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This is great.
Count me interested.

Hope you can figure 3.5e-appropriate immortal powers.
Are you gonna also redo the 4 (5) paths to immortality?


One thing. Try not to make all immortals extremely similar in powers, but give them (in this way or another) all the basic tools they'll need as deities.
And remember..... A lot of the mechanics in Wrath of the Immortals just won't work for 3.Xe as they are and will require revision.




Travel: An immortal in spirit form is capable of flying at a speed of 240’ per round with perfect maneuvrability. When in a hurry an immortal can travel at speed of 24 miles per round but doing so makes him unable of perceiving any details.


Notice that this translates to movement rate 60'.

Elderand
2014-08-31, 11:41 AM
Notice that this translates to movement rate 60'.

Edited that to be clearer that it's a base speed.

Elderand
2014-08-31, 12:41 PM
Manifestation form

Immortal body: The manifestation form of an immortal does not ages, nor does it need to drink or eat. Immortals are outsiders.

Immortal immunities: Immortals in manifestation form are immune to all environmental conditions such as heat and cold, immune to poison (but not immortal poisons).
They enjoy complete immunity to the magical, spell like and supernatural attacks of mortal creatures and apply their anti-magic to such attacks from immortal creatures. An immortal can voluntarily lower both resistance at will should it prove beneficial to do so.

Resistance to damage: Only the greatest of mortals can even hope to injure an immortal in manifestation form. Immortals can only be injured by weapons wielded by epic characters or epic weapons (and non outsiders with a CR above 20). Even then an immortal only take minimum damage (All variable numerical value comes up at their minimum. Static bonuses are unaffected).
Other immortals or associated creatures (outsiders with a CR above 20) as well as mortals wielding artefact weapons are able to damage an immortal normaly.

AC: Immortal have no need for armors, only the weakest of them ever wear armors for anything other than looks. An immortal has an armor bonus to AC equal to 1/2 it's HD rounded down. This bonus does not stack with other armor bonus but stack with other bonuses to AC. Additionaly immortals never suffer penalties from wearing armor, they can ignore maximum dexterity bonus, armor check penalties, arcane spell failure and speed limitation.
Ex: An immortal with 20 HD is wearing a full plate +3. His armor bonus is better than the armor bonus from the fullplate so he uses his own. He suffers no penalty from the armor and his AC is augmented by the +3 enhancment bonus from the fullplate. Any other +3 armor would provide the same benefit

Unarmed strike: An immortal in manifestation form automatically gain the improved unarmed strike feat. An immortal unarmed strike is based on his rank. Initiate and temporal (level 1 to 10) do 2d6 damage, celestial and empyreal (level 11 to 20) do 3d6 damage. Eternal and Hierarch (level 21 to 30) do 4d6 damage.
Weapon uses: Weapons wielded by immortals are considered to be larger for the purpose of damage. Weapons wileded by initiate and temporal are considered 1 category larger. this increase by one category when the immortal reach the rank of celestial and once more when he achieve the rank of eternal.

Senses: Immortals in manifestation form have low light vision and darkvision 60 ft

Movements: Immortals have a base speed of 50’ and can fly at 120’ with perfect maneuverability. Should an immortal change his form by using spells he improves the various movement speed of such form by 10’ each. At will an immortal can use mortal spells that allow for travel such as teleportation or planar travel. He can do at no cost and whitout components and his caster level for such spells is equal to his class level.

Incorporeal: At will an immortal can turn his manifestation form incorporeal, with all the benefits and limits that entails. And their flying speed improves to 240’ with perfect maneuverability.

Aura: An Immortal in manifestation form is constantly surrounded by an aura of power, clearly indicating his nature. Once per round, as a free action the immortal can flare up this aura, affecting every mortal creature within 60’. When he does so the immortal must choose one from amongst the following effects:
Charm: As charm monster but with a duration of 2 days per level.
Fear: As the fear spell but if the mortal make his save he in shaken for 3 rounds.
Paralysis: Creatures that fail a will save are paralyzed for 3 rounds.
The aura is a mind affecting emanation with a DC equal to (10 + 1/2 the immortal HD + Immortal Charisma Modifier)

Healing: Immortal heal at twice the rate mortal do, regaining twice their class level in hit point after a full night rest or quadruple in the case of complete bed rest.

(I only included the abilities that do not cost anything to use, Powers with a cost will be included in a later post)

nonsi
2014-09-01, 05:08 AM
Several note . . . . . . .




[SIZE=3]
[B]Immortal immunities: Immortals in manifestation form are immune to all environmental conditions such as heat and cold, immune to poison (but not immortal poisons).


What effect does immortal poison have on undead, constructs, elementals and such?




[SIZE=3]
[B]Damage Reduction: Immortals have a special kind of damage reduction. Against weapons with a bonus of +4 immortals take no damage. Against +5 weapons or better wielded by mortals, immortals only suffer the minimum damage possible.


I wouldn't go that way. It totally conflicts with 3.Xe mechanics (e.g. plusses are meaningless where DR is applied).
Just give them DR [X]/epic, where [X] depends on their immortal rank (set the bar as high as you see fit...... 10 + immortal level maybe).
This would also mean that super awesome mortals can injure low-rank immortals.




[SIZE=3]
[B]AC: The immortal armor class is augmented by an immortal bonus depending on his immortal class level. Non-magical armor does not, in any way, improve it and only the enhancement bonus from magical armor applies.
Ex: An immortal wearing a non-magical full plate would gain no benefit whatsoever. But an immortal wearing a +3 leather armor would increases his AC by 3.


Again, if you don't intend to make your Immortal rules part of a large game overhaule, don't do this.
in 3.Xe, the AC from natural armor and donned armor stack.




[SIZE=3]
[B]Unarmed strike: An immortal in manifestation form automatically gain the improved unarmed strike feat if his form has unarmed strikes. He also does damage equal to a monk of half his immortal class level (minimum of 1, adjusted for size).


Why half?
It's not like the Monk's base unarmed damage is earth shattering.




[SIZE=3]
[B]Senses: Immortals in manifestation form have darkvision 60 ft


I'd give them draconic senses + always active 60' blindsight. They're gods, not puny mortals.




[SIZE=3]
[B]Aura: An Immortal in manifestation form is constantly surrounded by an aura of power, clearly indicating his nature. Once per round, as a free action the immortal can flare up this aura, affecting every creature within 60’. When he does so the immortal must choose one from amongst the following effects:
Charm: As charm monster but with a duration of 2 days per level.
Fear: As fear but with a duration of 3 rounds.
Paralysis: Creatures that fail a will save are paralyzed for 3 rounds.
The aura is a mind affecting emanation.


I'd significantly increase the duration of fear (3d6 rounds probably).
Also, you didn't state if the effect is Shaken / Frightened / Panicked / Cowering / varies by immortal rank.




[SIZE=3]
[B]Healing: Immortal heal at twice the rate mortal do, regaining twice their class level in hit point after a full night rest or quadruple in the case of complete bed rest.


I'd give them regeneration. They're gods, not puny mortals.





Also, what happens when an Immortal's mortal-form dies of old age?

Elderand
2014-09-01, 05:48 AM
What effect does immortal poison have on undead, constructs, elementals and such?
It will be properly detailled later, but in effect they are simply normal poison that can affect immortals.


I wouldn't go that way. It totally conflicts with 3.Xe mechanics (e.g. plusses are meaningless where DR is applied).
Just give them DR [X]/epic, where [X] depends on their immortal rank (set the bar as high as you see fit...... 10 + immortal level maybe).
This would also mean that super awesome mortals can injure low-rank immortals.

DR as used in 3.5 is problematic, either it does nothing at all or it stop almost nothing given the damage potentital of characters in 3.5. I'll be reworking this.


Again, if you don't intend to make your Immortal rules part of a large game overhaule, don't do this.
in 3.Xe, the AC from natural armor and donned armor stack.

This isn't natural armor. It's a special property of immortals that what shape an armor take means nothing to them. I'll be rewrtiting this to be clearer.


Why half?
It's not like the Monk's base unarmed damage is earth shattering.

I'm going to change that since that's too little damage I agree.


I'd give them draconic senses + always active 60' blindsight. They're gods, not puny mortals.
I'll give them low light vision but if an immortal want better senses while in his manifestation form, he can build it that way, those are merely the senses that all immortals have in common.


I'd significantly increase the duration of fear (3d6 rounds probably).
Also, you didn't state if the effect is Shaken / Frightened / Panicked / Cowering / varies by immortal rank.
I'll rework this but the effect isn't dependent on ranks. To the ants it makes no difference if he is being crushed by a small child or an elephant.


I'd give them regeneration. They're gods, not puny mortals.
Given how easily immortals will end up having at will spellcasting of clerics/wizard/others, they don't need regeneration or even fast healing.


Also, what happens when an Immortal's mortal-form dies of old age?
Same thing that happens if an immortal in mortal form get slain, they pop back to their home plane in manifestation form and have to wait 48 hours before being able to leave.

Elderand
2014-09-01, 01:05 PM
Candidates to immortality.
Mortal characters who have acquired 200 000 xp and have convinced an existing immortal to become their patron will be turned into first level immortals themselves.
Once granted immortality their life force will be removed from their mortal body to be reformed into the body of an immortal, the manifestation form.
This manifestation form will be created for the new immortal by their patron (its appearance is up to the player, in story the patron may have consulted the mortal on it or he might decide on it himself).
The plane on which this manifestation form is created will be forever more the immortal home plane. No immortal is ever created on the prime material plane; they are always given an outer plane as a home plane. Whether they are granted a small plane as a lone dwelling or are granted a place in a universe sized plane home to a whole pantheon of immortals is up to the patron.
A newly minted immortal is also given a small fraction of power to sustain him. This power takes the form of 300 faith points granted to them by their patron.
A newly transformed immortal is, by tradition, to be a helper to their patron for a period that is not to exceed the time it take them to achieve the rank of Temporal.
While under the service of their patron, initiate are supported by the faith directed at their patron. But once on their own, an immortal must be worshipped by mortals from the prime material plane if he is to keep his new found powers.

The change
During the change to immortal status the character will have to leave everything he was behind. Literally. His body can disappear or be left behind, at his choice, but in all case it is impossible to bring the character back to life. No magic, either mortal or immortal can bring him back to life as a mortal.
The one caveat is the use of a clone spell. Flesh from the old body of an immortal (and his future mortal forms) is used to create a clone; the clone will be a new 1st level being with no memories of the immortal or even an inkling of his connection to it.

The immortal class



Rank
Level
Hit Dice
Attack Bonus
All Saves
Special
Anti-magic
Unarmed damage
AC Bonus
FP


Initiate
1
15
+15/+10/+5
+9
Weapon: 1 category larger, Immortal spells, home plane, Faith Points, Shifting forms, Max ability score:25, Universal communication, Telepathy
50%
2d6
+7
300



2
16
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10

50%
2d6
+8
340



3
17
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10

50%
2d6
+8
380



4
18
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11

50%
2d6
+9
420



5
19
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11

50%
2d6
+9
460


Temporal
6
20
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12

50%
2d6
+10
500



7
21
+21/+16/+11/+6
+12

50%
2d6
+10
640



8
22
+21/+16/+11/+6
+13

50%
2d6
+11
780



9
23
+22/+17/+12/+7
+13

50%
2d6
+11
920



10
24
+22/+17/+12/+7
+14

50%
2d6
+12
1 060


Celestial
11
25
+23/+18/+13/+8
+14
Weapon: 2 category larger, Max ability score 50
60%
3d6
+12
1 200



12
26
+23/+18/+13/+8
+15

60%
3d6
+13
1 460



13
27
+24/+19/+14/+9
+15

60%
3d6
+13
1 720



14
28
+24/+19/+14/+9
+16

60%
3d6
+14
1 980



15
29
+25/+20/+15/+10
+16

60%
3d6
+14
2 240


Empyreal
16
30
+25/+20/+15/+10
+17
Max ability score: 75
70%
3d6
+15
2 500



17
31
+26/+21/+16/+11
+17

70%
3d6
+15
3 100



18
32
+26/+21/+16/+11
+18

70%
3d6
+16
3 700



19
33
+27/+22/+17/+12
+18

70%
3d6
+16
4 300



20
34
+27/+22/+17/+12
+19

70%
3d6
+17
4 900


Eternal
21
35
+28/+23/+18/+13
+19
Weapon: 3 categories, Max ability score: 100
80%
4d6
+17
5 500



22
36
+28/+23/+18/+13
+20

80%
4d6
+18
6 600



23
37
+29/+24/+19/+14
+20

80%
4d6
+18
7 700



24
38
+29/+24/+19/+14
+21

80%
4d6
+19
8 800



25
39
+30/+25/+20/+15
+21

80%
4d6
+19
9 900


Hierarch
26
40
+30/+25/+20/+15
+22

90%
4d6
+20
11 000



27
41
+31/+26/+21/+16
+22

90%
4d6
+20
12 000



28
42
+31/+26/+21/+16
+23

90%
4d6
+21
13 000



29
43
+32/+27/+22/+17
+23

90%
4d6
+21
14 000



30
44
+32/+27/+22/+17
+24

90%
4d6
+22
16 000


HP per HD: (8+con bonus)
Class skills: All
Skill points: 8+int bonus per level (120 + 18*int bonus at first level)

The immortal class is both race and class to an immortal, in truth there is no difference. An immortal is what an immortal do.
When a character becomes immortal he keeps his ability scores, minus any bonus granted by magical equipment racial bonuses and templates. But he keeps any inherent bonus he has, if any as well as any increase from leveling up.

A character immediately loses every piece of equipment he had. These belong to mortals and will be passed along to a new generation of adventurers.
A new immortal also immediately lose all class level, racial HD, templates and racial bonuses and other similar things, becoming a 1st level immortal.
HP, base attack bonus, saves and skills must be recalculated. Nothing forces a character to keep the skill he had in life. The transformation into an immortal is liberating and comes with a flash of insight upon the nature of the universe, allowing such complete redefining of an immortal knowledge as his mind adjust to his new existence. Once the choice is made however the immortal cannot so easily change his abilities.
The immortal is also forever more barred from taking level in classes other than the immortal class.
The nature of the immortal is all encompassing and such specialization is unnatural to such beings.
The only exception is when an immortal takes Mortal form (see mortal form for an explanation).

Rank: This is the rank achieved by the immortal in the immortal hierarchy.
Level: The level in the immortal class the character achieved.
Hit Dice: The number of hit dice the immortal possess. 1st level immortal have 14 racial outsider hit dice and are therefore ECL 15
Weapon: Indicate the numvber of size category larger than normal a weapon (including natural weapon) wielded by an immortal in manifestation form count as for the purpose of damage.
Immortal spells: An immortal has access to certain special spells depending on the form he occupy.
Home plane: See home plane later.
Faith points: The number of permanent faith points that an immortal must possess to reamain or achieve this level, the only exception being that an immortal will always be at least 1st level if he has one permanent faith point remaining. Faith points can be spent either temporarily or permanently to achieve certain effects.
Shifting forms: An immortal can shift between all his available forms at will as a full round action. A starting immortal only has one manifestation form and his incorproreal form. All other forms must be purchased independently.
Max ability score: The maximum ability score an immortal may have is dependent upon his rank. This maximum represent the maximum natural score for an immortal ability, it can be further raised using magical items, through raising ability score by leveling and inherent bonuses.
Anti-magic: This represent the chance that an immortal spell will fail to affect an immortal at all. This percentage can be lowered at will as a free action.
Unarmed damage: The base damage that an immortal unarmed strike in manifestation form does.
AC Bonus: The bonus to AC that an immortal manifestation form possess. This bonus apply to touch attack and while flat footed but does not stack with armor bonus.

nonsi
2014-09-02, 02:05 PM
AC Bonus: The bonus to AC that an immortal manifestation form possess. This bonus apply to touch attack and while flat footed but does not stack with armor bonus.


I still don't see how you can justify this.

In 3.Xe, AC is derived from 5 different sources (unless you know of another source):
1. Natural Armor
2. Donned Armor (stacks with Natural Armor)
3. Shield
4. Dodge
5. Deflection

I'm assuming that immortal AC is not associated with #2 or #3.
#1, #4 and #5 all stack with donned armor.


We all love nostalgia, but mechanically speaking, it's time to leave BECMI D&D.

Elderand
2014-09-02, 03:09 PM
In 3.Xe, AC is derived from 5 different sources (unless you know of another source):
1. Natural Armor
2. Donned Armor (stacks with Natural Armor)
3. Shield
4. Dodge
5. Deflection

Technicly every possible type except for resistance bonus can be made to apply to anything. Then there are things such as untyped bonuses For exemple, gods have an untyped bonus to Ac equal to their ranks, Monks bonus to AC comes into two parts, applying wisdom bonus to AC and an untyped bonus. Both (gods and monks) are untyped bonus and each has different restriction. This is just another such untyped bonus with it's own restriction.


I'm assuming that immortal AC is not associated with #2 or #3.

If it helps, yes, it's number 2 but built in the class itself. Or it's monk bonus with less limitation.

The only real question is whether or not it is balanced when keeping in mind the following. It's supposed to be an alternative to gods from deities and demigods. And so must be relatively in line with them and that mortals are free to keep gaining levels to infinity if the dm is so inclined while immortals and have 30 level and no more.

nonsi
2014-09-02, 10:43 PM
If it helps, yes, it's number 2 but built in the class itself. Or it's monk bonus with less limitation.


The second option definitely makes more sense than the first.
But I'd expect it to be Deflection, because I'd expect it to apply even when an immortal doesn't even pay attention to its attacker.
I'd even go as far as making it Natural Armor with inherent ghost touch property. This would make more sense to me than anything else, because immortals should be naturally tough and yet untouchable.




The only real question is whether or not it is balanced when keeping in mind the following. It's supposed to be an alternative to gods from deities and demigods. And so must be relatively in line with them and that mortals are free to keep gaining levels to infinity if the dm is so inclined while immortals and have 30 level and no more.


This only strengthen my view that it should be either Deflection or Natural Armor with inherent ghost touch property.
It's more an impression issue than anything else, and since we're talking about immortals/gods, then you shouldn't worry about power balance issues (which I'm sure that donned armor wouldn't be the cause of anyway).