[3.5] Dvati Gestalt Builds?

[HaikenEdge]

DM I'm playing with has approved the play of a dvati thrall (I'm a thrallherd) in a gestalt setting, with the thrall also being built gestalt, and frankly, I've wanted to play a dvati for a while now, so playing one as a possible throwaway character (thralls get replaced in 24 hours when they die, so if the thrall ends up not really working, it's not that big of a deal, because they can be sacrificed on the altar of the thrallherd's ambitions).

I also understand there are a lot of ambiguity in the rules; the DM is ruling that each of the twins get a full set of actions, minus spellcasting and manifesting (or casting mysteries, using SLAs and SU abilities), but also have to equip each body individually. Initiators share the same pool of known maneuvers, but otherwise ready and recover maneuvers separately, vestiges bound to a dvati is shared between the two bodies as are the abilities (and cooldowns), and meldshapers share essentia pools and max meldshapes, but bind to each body individually.

My question is what exactly would be a good build for the thrall, and how should I optimize said build, if all first and second party materials are allowed? My instinct is to go Warblade and max out Constitution, they have a lot of HP, but most of the Constitution-oriented classes (meldshapers and the Dragonfire Adept come to mind) aren't particularly good based on the DM's rulings. On the other hand, Dvati also benefit heavily from flanking, which seems to suggest something with Sneak Attack would be more appropriate, possibly even without the need of TWF, since they already are going to get double the attacks of a normal one-weapon fighter anyways.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Crusader is actually superb, both can use Iron Guard's Glare so everything takes a -4 to hit either of them, and they can use the Shield Block maneuver to protect each other. Give them Shield Specialization and Shield Ward and Stone Power and probably Extra Granted Maneuver. For gestalt, a little bit of Binder with Improved Binding plus Incarnate would be pretty good. Dragonfire Adept is also amazing, especially with Entangling Exhalation, assuming they can both use their breath attack in the same round (multiheaded creatures can breathe from each head, after all).

[Kazyan]

Incarnate would do wonders for their split HP pool. Vitality Belt on both of them gives them lots of extra HP.

[HaikenEdge]

My main worry about having a dvati meldshaper is not having enough essentia, shaped soulmelds and chakra binds to go around; is there a way to drastically improve those?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

My main worry about having a dvati meldshaper is not having enough essentia, shaped soulmelds and chakra binds to go around; is there a way to drastically improve those?

Are you saying that his maximum number of shaped soulmelds shared by the two bodies, and the same soulmeld on both counts as two against that? If so, then this isn't exactly fair to a Dvati character. Dvati may have separate bodies, but they share a soul, and this is what Incarnum deals with. Soulmelds should be per-character, not per-body, so a single shaped soulmeld would manifest on both the character's bodies.

[HaikenEdge]

Are you saying that his maximum number of shaped soulmelds shared by the two bodies, and the same soulmeld on both counts as two against that? If so, then this isn't exactly fair to a Dvati character. Dvati may have separate bodies, but they share a soul, and this is what Incarnum deals with. Soulmelds should be per-character, not per-body, so a single shaped soulmeld would manifest on both the character's bodies.

Maximum soulmelds, essentia pool and chakra binds are shared between the two bodies, but each body has to bind chakras separately, which I thought was clear in the original post, which was why I didn't think they would fit.

Regarding fairness, it's kind of besides the point; I'm looking more for something optimal within the framework I'm allowed, because I've learned a long time ago that trying to get a DM to change their mind about something will generally lead them finding other ways to nerf the character in game even if the agree to the change, say by cursing the characters. If the DM wants something, they're going to get it, so I'd rather work within what's allowed, then end up with a DM who takes an undue interest in my character.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Then in that case, Crusader//Dragonfire Adept is the direction I would go, assuming the breath attack takes both bodies' actions but both bodies get to produce an identical breath attack. Pick up Entangling Exhalation and focus on 24-hour buff invocations since he'll be wearing armor.

If the two bodies can be in different stances, maybe have one use Iron Guard's Glare with a tower shield and Stone Power, while the other uses Martial Spirit and healing strikes.

[KingAtomsk]

for maximum hilarity
http://i.imgur.com/RtOBiPy.png

[Snowbluff]

Dvati FoPs are pretty great.

[HaikenEdge]

How are you getting the Evil subtype for this? Fiend of Possession requires Outsider (Evil), and while Otherworldly makes you Outsider, it doesn't give the Evil subtype.

[Snowbluff]

You're right. It does take a bit of fiddling to get the subtype. Is he using the ritual?

[HaikenEdge]

Ritual of Alignment is 56k gp, 2,240 xp and a DC 10 Will save. That's out of the (WBL) reach of a 10th level character, let alone a 4th level one.

[KingAtomsk]

They're a thrall. The master pays for the ritual.

[HaikenEdge]

At 3rd level for the thrall? A Thrallherd with a Leadership score higher than 5 will attract a thrall of level 4 or better. Consider a Thrallherd's leadership score is equal to it's HD + it's thrallherd levels +/- Cha modifier, and Thrallherd entry is available at 6th, we're talking Thrallherds starting their class with a base leadership score of 7, so in order to achieve a leadership score of 5, they would need a Charisma score of 8 or worse; else, the thrall they would attract would already be level 4 or higher, which is the point in the build where you've listed their entry into Fiend of Possession.

A 6th level character's WBL is 13k gp. That's well short of the 56k gp needed for the ritual. The earliest a Thrallherd can afford the ritual, even at the expensive of everything else, is between 10th and 11th, but at that point, a 3rd level thrall, particularly a Dvati, would get splattered by just about every combat (and possibly many noncombat) encounter the group comes across.

[KingAtomsk]

At 3rd level for the thrall? A Thrallherd with a Leadership score higher than 5 will attract a thrall of level 4 or better. Consider a Thrallherd's leadership score is equal to it's HD + it's thrallherd levels +/- Cha modifier, and Thrallherd entry is available at 6th, we're talking Thrallherds starting their class with a base leadership score of 7, so in order to achieve a leadership score of 5, they would need a Charisma score of 8 or worse; else, the thrall they would attract would already be level 4 or higher, which is the point in the build where you've listed their entry into Fiend of Possession.

A 6th level character's WBL is 13k gp. That's well short of the 56k gp needed for the ritual. The earliest a Thrallherd can afford the ritual, even at the expensive of everything else, is between 10th and 11th, but at that point, a 3rd level thrall, particularly a Dvati, would get splattered by just about every combat (and possibly many noncombat) encounter the group comes across.

Show me precisely where in the OP it says that Thrallherd is being entered as early as possible (6th-level). Also show me where it says in the rules as written that you can't get a thrall of lower level than your maximum. Then also give the proper context to discount the possibility that this Dvati was a NPC you knew before they became your thrall, for whom you could have paid to have the ritual performed before they became your thrall.

You're getting pissy about details you didn't give.

[Rubik]

I like using the ghost template. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18040094&postcount=629) Fiend of possession is another way, if you can swing it, but ghost is great (especially if you take the Human Heritage feat to override being Undead; you're still not alive, but you're not Undead, meaning you're immune to everything Undead are immune to [which includes everything that directly affects Humanoids], but you're also immune to everything that explicitly targets Undead, as well).

[HaikenEdge]

Show me precisely where in the OP it says that Thrallherd is being entered as early as possible (6th-level). Also show me where it says in the rules as written that you can't get a thrall of lower level than your maximum. Then also give the proper context to discount the possibility that this Dvati was a NPC you knew before they became your thrall, for whom you could have paid to have the ritual performed before they became your thrall.

You're getting pissy about details you didn't give.

I don't see how I'm being "pissy", as you put it.

Let's say you enter Thrallherd at 11, so you can afford the 56k required for the Ritual of Alignment; you still are applying it to a 3rd level NPC, who you then attract. However, you're attracting a 3rd level Thrall as an 11th level character, and given the power disparity between yourself and the encounters versus this 3HD creature (who would be ECL 4), they wouldn't realistically be able to contribute anything meaningful to the party without being coddled, and given the fact they split HPs, at 3rd level, against CR 11 encounters, are they really going to provide anything of use? I'm not even sure they could consistently possess the creatures you're encountering when they hit level 4 due to the geometric/logarithmic disparity in power that occurs as characters level up.

Also, consider the rules by which Thralls level up: they gain XP at a rate equal to their level divided by their Thrallherd's level, multiplied by the XP awarded to the Thrallherd; a 3rd level Thrall with an 11th level Thrallherd essentially earns 27% of the XP the Thrallherd does, so in the 11k XP it takes the Thrallherd to reach level 12, the Thrall only earns 3000 XP, or enough XP to progress to level 4. In fact, following the progression formula provided in the Leadership , the thrall in question will always remain a full 8 levels behind the Thrallherd unless the Thrallherd keeps burning all their XP earned on crafting in order to not level up, but in such a case, the Thrallherd would fall behind the rest of the party in terms of power level and become themselves a liability.

That's to say, the suggestion you provided, while interesting, doesn't seem particularly helpful within the context of the framework of the game.


Edit:

I like using the ghost template. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18040094&postcount=629) Fiend of possession is another way, if you can swing it, but ghost is great (especially if you take the Human Heritage feat to override being Undead; you're still not alive, but you're not Undead, meaning you're immune to everything Undead are immune to [which includes everything that directly affects Humanoids], but you're also immune to everything that explicitly targets Undead, as well).

Doesn't the requirements of gaining the Undead traits (from which their draw their immunities) require them to be the Undead type, meaning the change to Humanoid (Human) would completely eliminate these traits, given they're no longer undead?

[Rubik]

Doesn't the requirements of gaining the Undead traits (from which their draw their immunities) require them to be the Undead type, meaning the change to Humanoid (Human) would completely eliminate these traits, given they're no longer undead?Human Heritage explicitly lets you keep the traits of what your type would've otherwise been.

[HaikenEdge]

Human Heritage explicitly lets you keep the traits of what your type would've otherwise been.

Are Dvati really a half-human or a human-descended race, tho? I can't find anything in the fluff/flavor text that suggest they are.

[Rubik]

Are Dvati really a half-human or a human-descended race, tho? I can't find anything in the fluff/flavor text that suggest they are.It can easily be fulfilled via fluff and backstory.

"My great-grandfather was human."

Done.

It's not like humans don't breed with everything and their dogs (sometimes literally).

[HaikenEdge]

That really is a fantastic idea, and I'm kicking myself for not have thought of it.

It's too bad the Ghost is a LA+5 template. DM is giving us +4 in free LA, but being Dvati already eats up +1, so there's only +3 left.

On the other hand, maybe I can talk the DM into allowing me to treat the remaining +2 LA as a flat +2 LA and buy it all off by 9th level.

[Rubik]

That really is a fantastic idea, and I'm kicking myself for not have thought of it.

It's too bad the Ghost is a LA+5 template. DM is giving us +4 in free LA, but being Dvati already eats up +1, so there's only +3 left.

On the other hand, maybe I can talk the DM into allowing me to treat the remaining +2 LA as a flat +2 LA and buy it all off by 9th level.Ghost savage progression?

[Doc_Maynot]

Here's a link to the Savage Progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a)

[HaikenEdge]

Thanks for the link. I'm just trying to figure out what level progression the thrall should have.

[Doc_Maynot]

It doesn't seem all that clear, what classes have you decided on?

[HaikenEdge]

Originally, Warblade, because I wanted the d12 HD (which would be split between the two bodies), but the Ghost template (A) already makes every HD d12, and (B) eliminates Con bonuses to both bodies, I'm pretty much open to anything at this point.

The thrallherd is a Egoist/Thrallherd//Factotum/Ranger with the obligatory Mindbender tip for Mindsight, so something to complement that would be nice.

[Doc_Maynot]

I'd still make them straight Warblade|Crusaders, making them reach fighters. And you really only need the three levels of the progression(+3 LA) to basically make this Thrall the last you'll ever need.

[HaikenEdge]

The thrall is also gestalt; in that case, wouldn't Warblade and Crusader be redundant to have on both sides? Would it be superior to have one side that's active and another that's passive? Or does having the two bodies negate that need?

[Doc_Maynot]

The thrall is also gestalt; in that case, wouldn't Warblade and Crusader be redundant to have on both sides? Would it be superior to have one side that's active and another that's passive? Or does having the two bodies negate that need?

I think in this case Crusader would be the more passive side (Mettle, Steely Resolve, Thicket of Blades)
Alternatively, I'd switch Crusader out with Factotum and have them take Martial Study and Martial Stance to get Thicket of Blades

[Segev]

I've always been amused by a Dvati (increased to Large or larger size) War Hulk, because the level 10 "attack everything in reach" works even better when you have two bodies with two sets of reach.

[Xerlith]

In a gestalt environment, I'd put a few templates on them to let them be a bit more resilient.
Say,
Warblade20//Mineral Warrior (LA+1)/Shadow Creature (LA+2)/Factotum 8/Something 9

has lot of maneuvers, self-healing, DR 8/adamantine, Evasion, concealment, and moves damn fast.

Alternatively, well...

I always wondered how nice auto-quickened self-buffs would be for a Dvati. I mean, An Abjurant Champion has both bodies buffed with Shield with one swift action. For a +9 AC.
A Swiftblade doesn't use the self-buffing part, but still can drop a 50% concealment and other goodies as a swift action too.

Crusader 20//Sorc5/AC1/SwB10/AC+4?

Gishing seems like a nice idea, since it not only allows you not to worry about action economy (drop a buff, go kick butt), but also allows for reducing WBL needs - GMW and similar.

[Segev]

Oh, right, gestalt!

Cleric//something->War Hulk.

Use Righteous Might to get Large to turn on War Hulk abilities, and Divine Power to give you full BAB.

Wu Jen, with its Giant Size spell, is a viable alternative to Cleric.

[Rubik]

Oh, right, gestalt!

Cleric//something->War Hulk.

Use Righteous Might to get Large to turn on War Hulk abilities, and Divine Power to give you full BAB.

Wu Jen, with its Giant Size spell, is a viable alternative to Cleric.War hulk? Yuck.

Not viable for a PC. It's a monster-only PrC, if only because of No Time To Think. And most of the time it's not even very good for that, because it ruins one's ability to Power Attack effectively.

[Xerlith]

Well, this IS for a thrall...
And I think this also bases on the fact that when the character stops being Large, they lose all class features, including No Time To Think.

[Rubik]

Well, this IS for a thrall...Well, that's true enough.


And I think this also bases on the fact that when the character stops being Large, they lose all class features, including No Time To Think.I don't see anything in the class that says this. To my knowledge, the only time you lose class features is if the class itself says it -- or if it's from C.Warrior. If you cease qualifying for a PrC, you just lose the ability to gain more levels, unless I'm mistaken -- and I might be.

[Segev]

To my knowledge, the only time you lose class features is if the class itself says it -- or if it's from C.Warrior. If you cease qualifying for a PrC, you just lose the ability to gain more levels, unless I'm mistaken -- and I might be.

The source of debate is over whether the C.Warrior rule is applicable only to C.Warrior PrCs, or to all PrCs.

Because the Cleric//War Hulk in this case is not dependent on UMD or any other mental-based skill, however, it's not crippling for him to have No Time To Think. He can still cast spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

War Hulk actually isn't bad at all for a gestalt cohort. You don't really need it to be making any skill checks because PCs should have the spotlight, and with gestalt the loss of BAB is completely irrelevant.

I'd make it something like Dvati Half-Minotuar Mineral Warrior, LA +2/ Warblade 3/ War Hulk 10/ Fighter 5// Zhentarim Dungeoncrasher Fighter 9/ Warblade 11

1. Fighter 1// LA +1, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, EWP: Spiked Chain, Improved Bull Rush
2. Fighter 2// LA +1, Dungeoncrasher
3. Zhentarim Fighter 3// Warblade 1, Knock-Back, Skill Focus: Intimidate
4. Fighter 4// Warblade 2, Cleave
5. Zhentarim Fighter 5// Warblade 3
6. Fighter 6// War Hulk 1, Dungeoncrasher, Imperious Command
7. Fighter 7// War Hulk 2
8. Fighter 8// War Hulk 3, Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
9. Zhentarim Fighter 9// War Hulk 4, Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain
10. War Hulk 5// Warblade 4
11. War Hulk 6// Warblade 5
12. War Hulk 7// Warblade 6, Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing
13. War Hulk 8// Warblade 7
14. War Hulk 9// Warblade 8
15. War Hulk 10// Warblade 9, Driving Attack
16. Fighter 10// Warblade 10, Defensive Sweep
17. Fighter 11// Warblade 11
18. Fighter 12// Warblade 12, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization
19. Fighter 13// Warblade 13
20. Fighter 14// Warblade 14, Weapon Supremacy

That gets an initiator level of 17 for 9th level maneuvers at 20th level, assuming you keep him that long. Note that Driving Attack can be used to knock creatures prone with a much larger bonus than a trip check could get, it still hits every opponent in reach thanks to War Hulk, and you can still use Knock-Back with it. You can use Mithril Tornado to get an attack on every opponent in reach, each of which will hit every opponent in reach, and Adamantine Hurricane does the same thing but gets twice as many attacks.