making bad weapons worth it

[paperarmor]

So how do we make weapons like the Bastard Sword which are mechanically unappealing worth just a bit more damage/optimization wise?

[Zaq]

Are you talking about homebrewing options to make them better (e.g., making feats that only work with certain unsupported weapons), homebrewing the weapons themselves to be better (e.g., changing the stats on them to be more in line with "good" weapons), or working with existing material to find something to make them worth using?

[paperarmor]

Are you talking about homebrewing options to make them better (e.g., making feats that only work with certain unsupported weapons), homebrewing the weapons themselves to be better (e.g., changing the stats on them to be more in line with "good" weapons), or working with existing material to find something to make them worth using?

Using existing material to make a certain weapons worth using. I don't really Homebrew.

[Jormengand]

The bastard sword is one of the best weapons for screwing about with oversized weapons - if someone Enlarges your Person (and I think there's another spell which does a similar thing only it scales up to colossal by level) and then you make it a bigger-than-normal one and hold it in two hands, and make it out of greensteel, and have powerful build, then you can do some royally screw-y things, and you don't even have to be that high a level to do it.

It's not great, but it's something.

[the_david]

The bastard sword? 3 levels of ranger and oversized two-weapon fighting from complete adventurer. Focus on strength.

[the_david]

The bastard sword is one of the best weapons for screwing about with oversized weapons - if someone Enlarges your Person (and I think there's another spell which does a similar thing only it scales up to colossal by level) and then you make it a bigger-than-normal one and hold it in two hands, and make it out of greensteel, and have powerful build, then you can do some royally screw-y things, and you don't even have to be that high a level to do it.

It's not great, but it's something.Did that with a half-giant barbarian barbarian 1/psychic warrior 1. Except ofcourse, he was wielding a greatsword and using the expand power. 4d6+12 damage at level 2. This was Pathfinder though, so the build was more effective than he would have been in 3.5.
Oh right, my point? Huge bastardsword 3d8, huge greatsword 4d6. On average, there's only half a point of damage between those 2. Still, a greatsword trumps bastardsword so why bother.

[Jormengand]

Huge bastardsword 3d8, huge greatsword 4d6.

If you can wield a huge greatsword, you can wield a gargantuan bastard sword. That's why you use one.

[ace rooster]

So how do we make weapons like the Bastard Sword which are mechanically unappealing worth just a bit more damage/optimization wise?

How do you see them as mechanically unappealing? Generally the +1 damage is not worth a feat, but after enlarge person and monkey grip a bastard sword is doing 3 more damage than a longsword. With two weapon fighting, improved and oversized you can do 4 attacks a round with them at level 6, and 3 extra damage becomes worth a feat. Plus you look badass.

I don't see any weapons that don't have uses. The exotic ones are generally not worth a feat to use unless you build for it, but decent builds exist for pretty much all of them. Double weapons are great for TWFing maneuver attempts, because they get the bonus for being THW. For an off hand attack that is a +8 to disarm attempts, which is well worth the feat for proficiency.

[Bluydee]

Say the bastard sword is a katana and go into Iaijutsu Master, getting the nice benefits, and also Raumathari Battlemage requires proficiency with a bastard sword and is a nice gish class.

[MilesTiden]

This is why we use these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm) in my RL campaign. Yay for making exotic weapons worth it!

[backwaterj]

This is extremely situational and subject to DM interpretation, but a character with the appropriate exotic weapon proficiency treats the bastard sword as a one-handed weapon even when wielding it in two hands (the same could be said for dire pick, maul, etc.)

Combine this with Slippers of the Battledancer, which allows you to substitute Charisma for Strength on attack/damage with one-handed weapons, and Power Attack if you're feeling plucky, and all the sudden that uber-Charisma character is a very decent frontline combatant.

Granted, by the rules you could just as easily do this with a longsword but I always thought that wielding a one-handed sword in two hands was silly. That hilt is five inches long!

[sleepyphoenixx]

A few points of damage generally just aren't worth a feat when you can get a reach, tripping, disarming weapon for the same price.
There are exotic weapons that are good. Spiked Chain is a staple for lots of builds, with variants that fill the same niche like the spinning sword or kusari-gama. Harpoons are awesome.

Something that's "like a longsword but X damage more" doesn't compete, even if you increase X, because most of your damage doesn't come from your weapon anyway when you specialize in melee.

[Ravens_cry]

I won't say it was good, but I had a lot of fun with a Great Falchion, because d12 are just fun, dammit, and so is 15-20 crit range. I can't remember if I used keen or improved crit, but it was fun.

[Zaq]

Using existing material to make a certain weapons worth using. I don't really Homebrew.

The problem with this approach is that, in general, the reason that bad weapons are bad is because there ISN'T anything special you can do with them. If there was, they wouldn't be bad (or at least, they would have a niche use). It's not like there's an awesome siangham-only feat just waiting there that nobody is using because they don't like sianghams—nobody uses sianghams exactly because there is nothing that they do better than anything else. Replace "siangham" with whatever bad weapon you like, but the point is the same. If they had interesting options, they wouldn't be (as) bad.

[paperarmor]

Ok, cool. just wanted to check. I like delving into suboptimal things sometimes.
Also, no twf using strength as the bonus damage is just a bad plan.

[Dusk Eclipse]

This is extremely situational and subject to DM interpretation, but a character with the appropriate exotic weapon proficiency treats the bastard sword as a one-handed weapon even when wielding it in two hands (the same could be said for dire pick, maul, etc.)

Combine this with Slippers of the Battledancer, which allows you to substitute Charisma for Strength on attack/damage with one-handed weapons, and Power Attack if you're feeling plucky, and all the sudden that uber-Charisma character is a very decent frontline combatant.

Granted, by the rules you could just as easily do this with a longsword but I always thought that wielding a one-handed sword in two hands was silly. That hilt is five inches long!

Nope, to do that you actually need at least 1 level of Exotic Weapon Master and select the Uncanny Blow stunt. RAW Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword only let's you wield it in one hand without taking penalties.

[Fax Celestis]

How do you see them as mechanically unappealing? Generally the +1 damage is not worth a feat, but after enlarge person and monkey grip a bastard sword is doing 3 more damage than a longsword. With two weapon fighting, improved and oversized you can do 4 attacks a round with them at level 6, and 3 extra damage becomes worth a feat. Plus you look badass.

I don't see any weapons that don't have uses. The exotic ones are generally not worth a feat to use unless you build for it, but decent builds exist for pretty much all of them. Double weapons are great for TWFing maneuver attempts, because they get the bonus for being THW. For an off hand attack that is a +8 to disarm attempts, which is well worth the feat for proficiency.

They get THF damage to both ends too.

[backwaterj]

Nope, to do that you actually need at least 1 level of Exotic Weapon Master and select the Uncanny Blow stunt. RAW Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword only let's you wield it in one hand without taking penalties.

RAW is actually rather sketchy on the point.


A bastard sword is too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.

Personally I read this as the bastard sword qualifying as a one-handed weapon for anyone with the exotic weapon proficiency, though there is room for interpretation there.

Uncanny Blow specifically applies to one-handed weapons wielded in two hands, so I fail to see how it's applicable unless you concede the above point. Granted, it's a good way to get x2 bonus damage instead of x1.5 but it's hardly needed for the build.

[Mithril Leaf]

I won't say it was good, but I had a lot of fun with a Great Falchion, because d12 are just fun, dammit, and so is 15-20 crit range. I can't remember if I used keen or improved crit, but it was fun.

Why not a Kaorti Resin Jovar? 15-20/X4 with Keen or Improved Crit.

[Sam K]

How do you see them as mechanically unappealing? Generally the +1 damage is not worth a feat, but after enlarge person and monkey grip a bastard sword is doing 3 more damage than a longsword. With two weapon fighting, improved and oversized you can do 4 attacks a round with them at level 6, and 3 extra damage becomes worth a feat. Plus you look badass.


Taking 2 underpowered feats to make a third underpowered feat and a underpowered weapon useful doesn't really seem to add up to making it worth it. Not to mention this combination requires high dex for two weapon fighting (and VERY high dex if you're continuing the two weapon fighting route), while the bastard swords run on strength for hit and damage. You don't even get that good return of investment for strength on your offhand attacks.

The DM should give you some bonuses to intimidate and diplomacy for the sheer coolness of the thing though.