Dragons vs mind flayers

[A Tad Insane]

Right, so imagine a world where, instead of saying they'll conquer the world, the mind flayers actually put their military force were their tentacles are and declare war on the world. Now, all the other races are either powerless or non existent, except both the metallic and chromatic dragons.

So who would win? What would happen.

A few clarification
All the other races that could fight (abolish, gith, undead, ect.) Don't exist, and the others (humans, dwarves, goblins, ect.) Are mindflayer food/bait. Edit: By this I mean that they races that can take levels in npc classes aren't willingly aiding either said, but can be dominated by the mindflayers, or used as bait by a clever enough dragon.

Evil dragons and good dragons are allies in this war

Greyhawk, because why not

The draconic pantheon isn't taking part

All official wotc books are good

[sleepyphoenixx]

The numbers are rather vague but according to LoM a mind flayer lives about 135 years and spawns 2-3 times in its live, with several thousand tadpoles of which "a few in a thousand" survive. So lets say 6-8 new mind flayers over 100 years as a very conservative estimate.
Mind flayers are also hermaphroditic, so every adult can reproduce. A mind flayer is an adult at about 30 years of age.

Dragons can lay eggs as often as once a year (if they want to), with 2-5 eggs/clutch (Drac). A dragon becomes a (young) adult after 51 years.
Dragons are also born at least somewhat capable of self defense, while mind flayers spend 10 years as tadpoles.

Now, assuming they reproduce as often as possible, dragons actually increase their population faster than mind flayers. A dragon becomes a juvenile in the time it takes a mind flayer to become an adult. Even juvenile dragons generally have about twice as much HD as a mind flayer, superior innate abilities, SR (which is only useful assuming Psi-magic transparency), flight, their HD grant better saves, more hit points and natural casting progression if they survive long enough to grow older.

And that's not taking into account the existence of already mature and older dragons when the war begins, in fortified positions (because dragon lairs) and likely at least some access to epic spellcasting both divine and arcane.

Dragons win, no question.

[Extra Anchovies]

Dragons have (Ex) flight and sorcerer casting. Assuming the magic-psionics transparency exists, all of the dragons capable of casting antimagic field can just keep flyby attacking. Fly speed of 200+ feet, wooo!

Also most dragons are smarter than the average mind flayer by the time they hit the Mature Adult age category (sure, there are mind flayers with exceptionally high Int, but the same is true for dragons). Mind Blast? DC 17 Will save? All of the dragon types other than White and Black are only failing that save on a natural 1 by the time they're mature adult, even earlier than that in some cases. Same goes for all of the other mind flayer SLAs.

Six types of dragons get ninth-level spells at the Great Wyrm age category. Any one of them can gate in a solar for an "I win now" button, not to mention all the other crazy stuff you can do with the spellcasting of a 19th-level sorcerer.

Elder brains would pose a threat. But there aren't enough of them to make a difference.

Mind flayers are octopus-headed psychics who eat brains. Dragons are, well... dragons. They might not even need to worry about the mind flayers being a threat.

[Hazrond]

Dragons have (Ex) flight and sorcerer casting. Assuming the magic-psionics transparency exists, all of the dragons capable of casting antimagic field can just keep flyby attacking. Fly speed of 200+ feet, wooo!

Also most dragons are smarter than the average mind flayer by the time they hit the Mature Adult age category (sure, there are mind flayers with exceptionally high Int, but the same is true for dragons). Mind Blast? DC 17 Will save? All of the dragon types other than White and Black are only failing that save on a natural 1 by the time they're mature adult, even earlier than that in some cases. Same goes for all of the other mind flayer SLAs.

Six types of dragons get ninth-level spells at the Great Wyrm age category. Any one of them can gate in a solar for an "I win now" button, not to mention all the other crazy stuff you can do with the spellcasting of a 19th-level sorcerer.

Elder brains would pose a threat. But there aren't enough of them to make a difference.

Mind flayers are octopus-headed psychics who eat brains. Dragons are, well... dragons. They might not even need to worry about the mind flayers being a threat.

If dragon magazine is a thing then the playing field just got alot more interesting due to the Brainstealer Dragon which is a mind flayer-d dragon

[sleepyphoenixx]

If dragon magazine is a thing then the playing field just got alot more interesting due to the Brainstealer Dragon which is a mind flayer-d dragon

Dragon magazine would also add Tome Dragons and a whole bunch of new metallic dragons (Cobalt, Titanium and something i don't remember). Tome dragons alone probably make that a net loss for the mind flayers because they get good casting progression for their age category, free access to tons of spells and free metamagic.

[Urpriest]

Dragons have access to Epic casting, Mind Flayers have access to Epic manifesting (via Elder Brains with a couple Psion levels), basic equivalence there, but Dragons likely have a greater number of powerful casters due to aforementioned reproduction calculation.

Mind Flayers have one (not especially involved) god, Dragons have a pantheon with a few solidly powerful members.

So on the basis of those two I'd say Dragons win.

[backwaterj]

Which is probably why mind flayers haven't tried this tactic: they know it's doomed to fail.

Why conquer when you can subvert?

[Ravens_cry]

Dragon magazine would also add Tome Dragons and a whole bunch of new metallic dragons (Cobalt, Titanium and something i don't remember). Tome dragons alone probably make that a net loss for the mind flayers because they get good casting progression for their age category, free access to tons of spells and free metamagic.
Iron and Nickel? I know they existed in an AD&D Dragon magazine article, though I don't know if they were updated.

[atemu1234]

Iron and Nickel? I know they existed in an AD&D Dragon magazine article, though I don't know if they were updated.

Dragon Magazine did it, I think. I'll look through my collection later, unless someone else knows it already.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Dragon Magazine did it, I think. I'll look through my collection later, unless someone else knows it already.

I don't remember which one but it's definitely in Dragon Magazine. Most of them were fairly uninspired but there's one with a bull rush breath weapon that gets brought up from time to time.

[pwykersotz]

Let's not forget the schtick of each race though. Dragons are raw power, but Mind Flayers specialize in domination. Assuming each race is played true to its tendancies and nature, an awful lot of dragons are going to be on the side of the Illithids, possibly faster than the population growth will account for.

[atemu1234]

Let's not forget the schtick of each race though. Dragons are raw power, but Mind Flayers specialize in domination. Assuming each race is played true to its tendancies and nature, an awful lot of dragons are going to be on the side of the Illithids, possibly faster than the population growth will account for.

Only really young dragons, which, due to the population size, most are going to be, which results in the Illithids being, y'know, victorious.

[Bronk]

Plus, dragons can breed with pretty much everything... It wouldn't take that long to generate a slew of half dragons for the cause.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Let's not forget the schtick of each race though. Dragons are raw power, but Mind Flayers specialize in domination. Assuming each race is played true to its tendancies and nature, an awful lot of dragons are going to be on the side of the Illithids, possibly faster than the population growth will account for.

Dragons come with all good saves and, for most, innate access to Protection from Evil, in addition to SR. So dominating a dragon isn't that easy. They could go for wyrmlings if the dragons left them unguarded, and even then the control is likely to fail as the dragon gets older. And then you have a pissed of dragon in the middle of your city/camp.

Also, dragons may be raw power but most of them are also smart. Smarter than humans, with very few exceptions (like the younger whites). So they're certainly capable of recognizing this tendency and using PfE preemptively when they're facing illithids.

[Blackhawk748]

Honestly im going with dragons on this one, i think Illithids are freakin awesome and the fact that they can have an army of mind controlled minions is freakin useful, but the reason i have for dragons winning is probably gonna sound kinda weird to most but just hear me out. Dragons win because of all the aforementioned reasons but a big factor in my mind is the White Dragon.

Now i know what your thinking, "Blackhawk has lost his flippin mind" and i wont actually argue that, but the White Dragon is an Apex Predator, as are all dragons, but the White actually still thinks like one. On top of this the thing has a Swim Speed and a Burrow Speed on top of its standard dragon movements and both of these are at 30 feet, so you cant even run away from it. Its got freezing fog which is solid fog plus grease which is just friggin mean and its just plain angry, all the time.

Hell its gotten to the point that my group has pretty much agreed that the White is probably the most horrifying Dragon of all the types, this is because they eventually get freakin smart and then they are an intelligent Apex Predator. If they were a humanoid we'd call them a Slasher.

[unseenmage]

Plus, dragons can breed with pretty much everything... It wouldn't take that long to generate a slew of half dragons for the cause.

But... Illithids can breed with anything Humanoid of a certain body mass index. And they can make Half-Illithids and hollow ooze brained minions out of everything else.

[Erik Vale]

1: It still takes as long, because that's how they reproduce normally.
2: Half Illithids are [apparently] proto-illithids.
3: That is known... However we're assuming that they're not packing a flying version of the Emerald Legion [paid for by selling quaterstaves as 10ft poles].

[SciChronic]

Aren't we forgetting that chromatic dragons and metallic dragons would be fighting each other in this war? Even if the world was ending, i doubt bahamut would ally himself with tiamat.

[Erik Vale]

So? Dragons can still outnumber them [potentially each individual breed, should they breed to], and have access to more allies, and have gods that are much more active. The dragons can fumble over each other and still win. Oh, and there are more dragon varieties than the main 10.

Also, see the good and evil are allies in this scenario.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A mind flayer produces about 6-20 spawn in its life. Maybe 50 if you're very generous with the number of tadpoles that survive to become mind flayers.
In the same time a female dragon can produce 100 clutches of 2-5 eggs.
In the time a mind flayer needs to become an adult (with 8HD) a dragon reaches juvenile (with 11-17HD). Most dragon breeds also get innate spellcasting by then while mind flayers are limited to their few innate powers.

The only thing that can reasonably stand up to an adult or older dragon is an Elder Brain, of which there aren't that many, and never more than one per mind flayer settlement iirc.
Against one or more Wyrm+ dragons? That Elder Brain is going down.

If you include class levels the dragons profit more, too, because they can advance their innate casting with levels in sorcerer and arcane PrCs. A mind flayer not only needs to start from scratch if he wants to get casting, he loses 10 years of possible training to being a tadpole. A dragon wyrmling is already intelligent and can start training right away.

If dragons seriously try to win it's not even a contest.

[Jermz]

Aren't we forgetting that chromatic dragons and metallic dragons would be fighting each other in this war? Even if the world was ending, i doubt bahamut would ally himself with tiamat.

OP said that evil dragons and good dragons are allies in the war.

Personally, I think that the dragons will make this thing a cakewalk, as the illithids don't have much going for them, especially if they don't have their minions as fodder. Assuming that's what the OP meant when they said that humans/dwarves/goblins are fodder and bait. If they can be used to fight against the dragons, that's a whole different scenario, but it's still likely that the dragons would wipe out the mindflayers.

[awa]

it depends on how you frame the scenario in a vacuum with those assumptions its one sided in the dragons favor. But it doesn't have to be, if the mind flayers have cop opted all the mortal races besides kobolds and hobgoblins in secret before the war then things are much more in the mind flayers favor. In addition its possible that the dragons lose a lot of members before they feel pressured enough to work together it would take a big threat to make a red dragon agree to work with a silver and not try and back stab them at the first opportunity. Not to mention assuming maximum breeding speed basically requires you turning all the female dragons into permanent brood mares something many of them particularly the chaotic ones would be strongly opposed to.

Finally there no reason to assume you need mind-control power to turn the dragons many chromatic are inherently treacherous and are supposed to fight along side their natural enemies if the mind flayers are smart and they are they can work with the dragons without any plans to betray them. I could also see them secretly stealing some eggs and implanting the hatchlings centuries before the conflict and breeding there own army of dragon flayers who would not suffer from the whole don't wont to be an egg factory problem.

So it depends on how you set up the conflict armies of mind flayers running around trying to mind blast great wyrm dragons is unlikely to succeed but also strongly out of character.

[Urpriest]

If you include class levels the dragons profit more, too, because they can advance their innate casting with levels in sorcerer and arcane PrCs. A mind flayer not only needs to start from scratch if he wants to get casting, he loses 10 years of possible training to being a tadpole. A dragon wyrmling is already intelligent and can start training right away.



Eh...we probably should be using the Psionic Illithid if we want to be honest with this one, so this actually falls on the Mind Flayer side (much more significant casting at adulthood).

[atemu1234]

I disagree with good and evil not working together. In a time of crisis with full-out war waged by illithids, regardless of their patron deities, they would work together.

[Extra Anchovies]

I disagree with good and evil not working together. In a time of crisis with full-out war waged by illithids, regardless of their patron deities, they would work together.

Indeed. The illithids have a history of being enough of a threat to forge unlikely alliances; after all, the Gith progenitor race only held itself together until the mind flayers were overthrown; after that it burst at the seams and we got Githyanki and Githzerai, now mortal enemies.

[Jermz]

Right, so imagine a world where, instead of saying they'll conquer the world, the mind flayers actually put their military force were their tentacles are and declare war on the world. Now, all the other races are either powerless or non existent, except both the metallic and chromatic dragons and their allies, the kobolds and hobgoblins.

So who would win? What would happen.

A few clarification
All the other races that could fight (abolish, gith, undead, ect.) Don't exist, and the others (humans, dwarves, goblins, ect.) Are mindflayer food/bait

Evil dragons and good dragons are allies in this war

Greyhawk, because why not

All official wotc books are good

Perhaps a quote is needed? The issue of the dragons fighting each other is actually a non-issue, based on what was written in the original post...

[molten_dragon]

I don't think this is as clear-cut as some are making it out to be. Dragons might be able to out-breed the mind flayers, but we need to know starting populations?

How many mind flayers are there to start, and how many dragons?

How many minions does each side have?

Because the mind flayers seem to have every member of every PHB race, while the dragons only have kobolds and hobgoblins.

Going off the DMG rules for high-level characters in populated areas, the mind flayers probably have a LOT more high-level characters backing them up than the dragons do.

[Extra Anchovies]

Hm. All official WotC books are good, that includes Serpent Kingdoms then.

The dragons have kobolds. At least one will be dragonwrought.

Looks like it's time to start gating in Sarrukhs :smallbiggrin:

On a more serious note, though, MM2 is also in. And that has the gem dragons. I have a feeling they would side with the other dragons in this one, despite their tendency to stay neutral; the mind flayers hope to rule all the planes, after all, and that includes the elemental planes where the gem dragons live.

That means the dragons have high-level psions too, removing pretty much the only outstanding edge the mind flayers had. Game over, illithids, game over.

[ArqArturo]

But, don't the Mind Flayers already conquer the world, but traveled back in time to avoid extermination by the gith?.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Eh...we probably should be using the Psionic Illithid if we want to be honest with this one, so this actually falls on the Mind Flayer side (much more significant casting at adulthood).

Fair enough. Psionic Mind Flayers get 9th level manifesting (as psion) with 8HD at adulthood, so 5th level powers.
Juvenile dragons get spellcasting between none and 7th level, as sorcerers but often with cleric access and between 11 and 17HD, so 1st-3rd level spells.
How much of an advantage the mind flayers get here really depends on what kind of dragon you compare it too.

Steel Dragons are probably the best casters of the official dragons, with 7th level casting at juvenile. Throw in Loredrake and you get 4th level spells, which isn't too shabby compared to mind flayers when you add in their other abilities.
If you include Dragon Magazine, Tome Dragons get 9th level casting at juvenile, so 5th level spells with Loredrake. They also get access to free metamagic and automatically know all divination and conjuration spells, which is pretty huge.



On a more serious note, though, MM2 is also in. And that has the gem dragons. I have a feeling they would side with the other dragons in this one, despite their tendency to stay neutral; the mind flayers hope to rule all the planes, after all, and that includes the elemental planes where the gem dragons live.

That means the dragons have high-level psions too, removing pretty much the only outstanding edge the mind flayers had. Game over, illithids, game over.
Gem dragon manifesting isn't all that hot. A juvenile tops out at 3rd level manifesting. To gain more they need to survive about 20 years of war first, which is hardly an easy task.

If you include training in class levels dragons still pull out ahead though because they can conceivably start training as wyrmlings, where mind flayers still spend 10 years as tadpoles.
The question is how fast do they advance in classes, assuming dragonkind is in a war of extinction with the illithids and focusing on training/survival (so no goofing off for a few centuries).

And that's all without including the epic dragons, of course. A single Force or Prismatic Dragon is already a massive threat, capable of destroying entire armies. As for breeding reinforcements, in the time it takes a mind flayer to reach 8HD these reach 35/38HD and 6th level spells.

I'm focusing pretty heavily on breeding/maturation rates here because imo, that is what a war of extinction will ultimately come down to. Unless one side can manage to gain an insurmountable advantage early on and simply crush the other, the side who can get more reinforcements faster wins.
With the general assumption of mature and older dragons already existing and living scattered all over the world/planes it's unlikely the mind flayers will get that advantage.

Their biology also means that the dragons gain a lot more benefit if the war drags on because they increase in power automatically with age as well as with training.

[Urpriest]

Actually, I'd argue that since both sides begin with epic casters, there really can't be a meaningful war of attrition. This is the sort of conflict that would have to be won in turns, days at the most.

[malonkey1]

Actually, I'd argue that since both sides begin with epic casters, there really can't be a meaningful war of attrition. This is the sort of conflict that would have to be won in turns, days at the most.

Well, yes and no. This assumes that neither side has devised a way to negate epic magic, which seems unlikely given their natures. An Illithid iis just the kind of paranoid chessmaster who would research an epic power capable of nullifying epic spellcasting, while a Dragon is likely to just happen to have a similar epic spell laying about in their hoard (not to mention some pretty impressive research capabilities themselves).

Without those, it'd basically be the Cold War gone hot. With them, epic spells just become highly advanced armaments like any other spell. I think the Emerald Legion was briefly mentioned earlier in the thread, and I'd say that this is the best weapon for the Mindflayers, especially if they simulacrum or ice assassin them for greater numbers (not to mention making an ice assassin or two of the enemy). Heck, if they get really devious, maybe they can piss off somebody powerful enough to send an Aleax, and then hijack it, but that's something either side could do.

[VoxRationis]

Mind flayers, as per the Monster Manual, are good at mostly one thing: dominating and stunning. But a dragon can do all that, with their eventual caster levels, and more, as well as tear illithids apart in melee, outmaneuver them with flight, swimming, and burrowing, or immolate them with breath weapons. If nothing else, they can do the Ancient Black Dragon tactic of just throwing up antimagic fields and still being dragons while their enemies become frail tentacle-faced monkeys. I don't know about stats for Elder Brains or any of the late-period sourcebook illithids, though.

[HereBeMonsters]

Can I point out to those who are praising dragons. They get beaten by Humans, Elves, and so forth played by less then genius level humans. Illithids who are said to be brilliant should be able to do a lot more then just flail their tentacles at them.

[Divide by Zero]

Can I point out to those who are praising dragons. They get beaten by Humans, Elves, and so forth played by less then genius level humans. Illithids who are said to be brilliant should be able to do a lot more then just flail their tentacles at them.

But the dragons are also played by less than genius level humans. And the same points can be made against illithid. So I'm not really sure how this is relevant.

[ArqArturo]

Mind flayers, as per the Monster Manual, are good at mostly one thing: dominating and stunning. But a dragon can do all that, with their eventual caster levels, and more, as well as tear illithids apart in melee, outmaneuver them with flight, swimming, and burrowing, or immolate them with breath weapons. If nothing else, they can do the Ancient Black Dragon tactic of just throwing up antimagic fields and still being dragons while their enemies become frail tentacle-faced monkeys. I don't know about stats for Elder Brains or any of the late-period sourcebook illithids, though.

QFT, also, according to Lords of Madness (and parts in Spelljammer too, I think), they eventually not just enslave everything and everyone, but also manage to blot out all stars, thus no more daylight anywhere.

Quoting from the Timaresh wiki (http://www.rilmani.org/timaresh/Illithid):

he earliest origins of the illithid are an utter mystery. Despite the existence of a few references claiming to describe their origins — the Sargonne Prophecies, the Astromundi Chronicles, the Planetreader's Primer — nothing is truly known of where they first came from. Some theorize connections to the Far Realm, others the mutant products of experimentations, but these are merely supposition, and the illithid themselves have neither comment nor care for their true origins. The only that would know for certain are the deities or elder brains of the illithid, and neither is likely to speak on the matter to outsiders.

What is known is that the first appearances of the illithid date back to approximately 34,000 years ago upon the Prime, the great nautiloid ships of the illithid coming from the depths of Wildspace to move upon the various material worlds near the waning days of the Reptilian Age, when the earliest intelligent mammalian races were first emerging upon the many-varied worlds. Over the next thousands of years, they took planet after planet, holding hundreds upon hundreds at their peak. Beyond the Material Plane, their reach extended upon the Astral and Ethereal, and even to a few outposts on the Outlands. So great was the Illithid Empire that it drew the notice, and the worry, of even the various races of the planes, so far as a threat that the Blood War itself came to a halt for the first time since its commencement as the baatezu and tanar'ri came to a brief summit to discuss the illithid threat; a summit that ended up collapsing into threats and violence, but a summit nonetheless.

Even such a great empire cannot last forever, though; after almost 20,000 years of domination, the early humans most frequently used as subject thralls by the illithid, following generation after generation after generation of controlled breeding, began to grow psionic gifts and defenses of their own, entirely unbeknownst to their masters. Tempering and developing these talents in secret, the thralls snuck agents from world to world via the very supply lines of the Empire itself. Finally, near to 16,000 years ago, thralls across the entire empire rebelled under the leadership of two great warriors, Gith and Zerthimon. Within three decades the thralls had succeeded in shattering the Illithid empire, slaughtering millions of illithid and thousands of elder brains, and ending the threat to the Prime. From this thrall race came eventually the githyanki and githzerai, set at odds with one another following the Pronouncement of Two Skies, but despite the ill will between the two factions, their acts together were an undeniable good for reality.

Shattered into any number of disparate communities across the planes, it was more than ten millennia before the illithid race managed to re-establish itself as a single body, striking out again in the year Hashkar -2965 to try and regain their former glory by unseating the then-dominant power of the Prime, the Thri-Kreen Empire; and so the Great Illithid Wars began. They stretched on for the next 175 years, finally concluding with the destruction of both the Thri-Kreen Empire's capital world and the home world of the thri-kreen, both shattering the empire's ability to field a military and utterly demoralizing its dominant race. Once more, the illithid were the dominant power in the Prime, though it was a far different time by then, with many more forces standing against them. Though they managed to take a number of worlds, they had nowhere near the strength of the first Illithid Empire, and so it was that in Hashkar -2787, their greatest fleet was fought to a standstill and eventual defeat by a briefly-united beholder fleet. The illithid were unseated, and the forces that defeated them soon collapsed into the usual in-fighting and sniping of the beholders, leaving a power vacuum for the humanoids of the Prime to once more take.

Today, the illithid are a significant threat across many Prime worlds, but far more individualized. Having lost much in the way of knowledge, of resources, of communication, each community of illithid upon both the Prime and the planes is essentially its own independent force, with little-to-none in the way of communication with any other community. Still, the illithid have recovered from one near-defeat, and they are among the most tenacious of races; not simply hoping for success, they believe it to be truly inevitable, and that the illithid will one day again rule the Prime.

In other words... Yes, yes, trust in your metallic dragons. In the end, you will want to be eaten first (http://jackchick.wordpress.com/2009/07/08/chick-parody-who-will-be-eaten-first/).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Can I point out to those who are praising dragons. They get beaten by Humans, Elves, and so forth played by less then genius level humans. Illithids who are said to be brilliant should be able to do a lot more then just flail their tentacles at them.

That's because most GMs play a dragon like a very big lizard with (at best) a few spells for buffing support, not as hyper-intelligent apex predators with centuries of experience and an innate understanding of magic.
A lot of dragons get 18-20 Int by young adult, some even earlier. Older dragons can easily get into the low 30s. Mind Flayers get Int 18, so the very edge of human intelligence.
If DMs actually played dragons true to their stats instead of as impressive loot-pinatas there would be a lot more TPKs and a lot less dragonslayers.

A lot depends also on the campaign world. There are at least a hundred named dragons in FR (DoF), most of them mature or older, some of them with levels in PC classes.
We know almost nothing about the dragon population of Eberron, except that they exist and generally stay in Xen'drik (or was it Sarlona?), or how many dragons exist on other planes than the material.
We also know almost nothing about what numbers the mind flayers have, save that it can't be all that many or else they would have conquered at least the Underdark.

What we do know is that dragons tend to build heavily trapped and fortified lairs as they get older. The example mind flayer village in LoM on the other hand is kind of pathetic.

Unless the mind flayers start a war with a significant advantage, they're going to lose. The average mind flayer is weaker than the average dragon, the strongest dragons outclass the strongest illithids so much it isn't even funny and dragons can reproduce a lot faster than mind flayers.

I just can't really see an advantage for the mind flayers here. They're weaker, take longer to reproduce and their stated way of living makes them a lot more vulnerable to attack.

[Urpriest]

We know almost nothing about the dragon population of Eberron, except that they exist and generally stay in Xen'drik (or was it Sarlona?)

Argonessen, actually. Which also has a city full of epic level humanoids who nonetheless only exist at the sufferance of the dragons.

[Ettina]

I disagree with good and evil not working together. In a time of crisis with full-out war waged by illithids, regardless of their patron deities, they would work together.

That's if the illithids are dumb about it and wage a full frontal attack, which really doesn't fit their characterization.

More likely illithids would start by working behind the scenes to pit the two factions of dragons against each other. Given how much they hate each other, that shouldn't be too hard. Once the dragons have waged an all-out war against each other, the illithids can attack the winners and stand a much better chance.

[ArqArturo]

That's because most GMs play a dragon like a very big lizard with (at best) a few spells for buffing support, not as hyper-intelligent apex predators with centuries of experience and an innate understanding of magic.
A lot of dragons get 18-20 Int by young adult, some even earlier. Older dragons can easily get into the low 30s. Mind Flayers get Int 18, so the very edge of human intelligence.
If DMs actually played dragons true to their stats instead of as impressive loot-pinatas there would be a lot more TPKs and a lot less dragonslayers.

A lot depends also on the campaign world. There are at least a hundred named dragons in FR (DoF), most of them mature or older, some of them with levels in PC classes.
We know almost nothing about the dragon population of Eberron, except that they exist and generally stay in Xen'drik (or was it Sarlona?), or how many dragons exist on other planes than the material.
We also know almost nothing about what numbers the mind flayers have, save that it can't be all that many or else they would have conquered at least the Underdark.

What we do know is that dragons tend to build heavily trapped and fortified lairs as they get older. The example mind flayer village in LoM on the other hand is kind of pathetic.

Unless the mind flayers start a war with a significant advantage, they're going to lose. The average mind flayer is weaker than the average dragon, the strongest dragons outclass the strongest illithids so much it isn't even funny and dragons can reproduce a lot faster than mind flayers.

I just can't really see an advantage for the mind flayers here. They're weaker, take longer to reproduce and their stated way of living makes them a lot more vulnerable to attack.

They actually have placed tadpoles in dragons, thus creating Brainstealer Dragons.

[atemu1234]

They actually have placed tadpoles in dragons, thus creating Brainstealer Dragons.

Nope. Brainstealers were a race created by experimentation. Half-Illithid dragons, however...

[ArqArturo]

Nope. Brainstealers were a race created by experimentation. Half-Illithid dragons, however...

Tomatoes, Tomatos, they have Dragons with Tentacles. Submission is acceptable, embrace your tentacled overlords.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Tomatoes, Tomatos, they have Dragons with Tentacles. Submission is acceptable, embrace your tentacled overlords.

Dragons also have half-dragon anythings, if you want to go that way. And still reproduce several times faster. With pretty much anything.

[atemu1234]

Tomatoes, Tomatos, they have Dragons with Tentacles. Submission is acceptable, embrace your tentacled overlords.

Actually, communities without elder brains look to Brainstealers for judgement. Therein, dragons have illithids, embrace your scaly overlords.

[ArqArturo]

Dragons also have half-dragon anythings, if you want to go that way. And still reproduce several times faster. With pretty much anything.

Hmmm, could we place more than one template on a dragon? Let's say, a Half-Illithid Half-Fiendish Red Wyrm Dracolich?.

[Tvtyrant]

Actually, I'd argue that since both sides begin with epic casters, there really can't be a meaningful war of attrition. This is the sort of conflict that would have to be won in turns, days at the most.

I think it would look like the original explanation of the Time War in Doctor Who. Time traveling attempts to prevent each other from existing, battles that are waged several times by the same individuals because they are reset half way through, panicked divine intervention. It might even spill into the Bloodwar as Tiamat makes deals with Asmodeus.

[Yael]

Well, if I'm not mistaken, the Illithid was decimated by outsiders when they first came to the material plane, so, in an imaginary setting (outside of the OP), and if their first spawn weren't destroyed, I guess their numbers, technology and resources would end up in a much better position against every other creature (I mean, the standard illithid is more intelligent than the standard dragon, so at the time they are enough cappable of facing a threat just as dragons, they would come up prepared, not just by themselves, running in circles, and threatening with those cute tentacles and shooting mindblasts.)

I really love the Illithid in general, there are also Alhoons (which have their own agenda, and they aren't that strong if dracoliches come up into play), but I think they deserve a mention. There are Ultharids, which are more powerful illithids. Thoon illithidae also have their own thingies in mind, but are 'flayers in general. Elder Brains stand for their cities, so they would aid, even if they are few, they are strong (really strong.) In general, the Dragons have more support, but the Illithid support is cool at the least (and if we would add Dragon Magazine, the Brainstealer Dragon would be a fun addition to whichever side they preferr.)

I must state again that I am in the side of Illithids for everything else, but putting aside every non-OP specified I just mentioned, I must agree that dragons would outrule the Mind Flayers.

Save us, Aboleths!

[Sedlan Yurosa]

Don't forget Neothelids and Ultilithid

[SirNMN]

Dragons have access to Epic casting, Mind Flayers have access to Epic manifesting (via Elder Brains with a couple Psion levels), basic equivalence there, but Dragons likely have a greater number of powerful casters due to aforementioned reproduction calculation.

Mind Flayers have one (not especially involved) god, Dragons have a pantheon with a few solidly powerful members.

So on the basis of those two I'd say Dragons win.

it was stated in the opening that the draconic pantheon isn't getting involved, so the only deity worth considering in this the Illithid's generally uninvolved gods i think they have two, but might be a different setting.

The other only thing other worth bring up hasn't already been said is the illithid savant which can steal the skill, feat, special abilities of the creatures it eats

Think this thread was raised from the dead

[Crake]

What people discussing reproduction forget to take into account is that a mind flayer requires a host. They don't reproduce in a vacuum, they need the other races to reproduce, and since the premise is that all the other races are trivial, it's easy, the dragons simply wipe out the mortal races, and boom, mind flayers die out in a generation.

[Roland St. Jude]

Thread necromancy is not permitted here.