Incarnate Construct Question

[torrasque666]

I and a (former) player have a disagreement on how Incarnate Construct's LA works. I say that when it his LA 0 that's it, it stops there. He's of the opinion that while it doesn't give you an actual negative LA, it does give you an LA deficit that can be filled later by other templates. The template in question that he wants to apply is Shadow Creature from LoM. How exactly does it work?

[Karnith]

Incarnate Construct is an acquired template applied by the spell Incarnate Construct (Savage Species, pp. 67-68). As an acquired template, it is applied after inherited templates are applied. In addition to changing type and stripping almost every ability from the base creature, the template reduces the creature's LA by 2, to a minimum of zero. And that's as far as it goes; the game doesn't "remember" whatever LA reduction there could have been, because LA is only changed at the time that the template is applied. If the creature then later gains a different template, it then gains the full LA from that template, up from whatever Incarnate Construct reduced the creature's LA to. For example, if a Warforged (LA +0) has the Incarnate Construct template applied to it (LA 0-2, minimum 0, resulting in LA +0), it could later gain the Vampire template, but it would gain the full +8 LA from that template.

For the application of Incarnate Construct to be of full use, therefore, the construct needs to have a LA of at least +2 (from templates, race, or whatever) before Incarnate Construct is applied. And, of course, since Incarnate Construct is applied after the templates, the Construct would lose whatever special abilities that the template granted. So what you're really looking for out of templates to use with Incarnate Construct are ability score and natural armor boosts (and the latter only up to a point); almost everything else is lost from Incarnate Construct. Some typical examples are Phrenic Incarnate Construct Warforged (LA +0, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha) and Incarnate Construct Maugs (2 RHD, LA +1, +10 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Cha, +7 natural armor, and Large size)

As to your particular case, the Shadow template doesn't really have any favorable interactions with Incarnate Construct. The Shadow template can't be applied to Constructs, so it couldn't be applied before Incarnate Construct. The latter would erase pretty much anything you'd want from the former, in any case. And applying the Shadow template after Incarnate Construct (a dubious prospect in itself, as by the fluff it should be an inherited template) doesn't save you any LA.

[Divide by Zero]

As to your particular case, the Shadow template doesn't really have any favorable interactions with Incarnate Construct. The Shadow template can't be applied to Constructs, so it couldn't be applied before Incarnate Construct. The latter would erase pretty much anything you'd want from the former, in any case. And applying the Shadow template after Incarnate Construct (a dubious prospect in itself, as by the fluff it should be an inherited template) doesn't save you any LA.

I can see it making sense from a fluff perspective, the caster that incarnated you wove the stuff of shadows into the ritual or something like that. But you still have to apply them in the right order regardless.

[Pan151]

the game doesn't "remember" whatever LA reduction there could have been, because LA is only changed at the time that the template is applied.

That is entirely up to the individual DM's interpretation.

[Karnith]

That is entirely up to the individual DM's interpretation.
In the sense that the DM can make up or change rules as she sees fit, sure. There is no support for "remembering" the wasted LA reduction within the actual written rules, however.

[Gemini476]

As an aside, Dustform+Incarnate Construct can be applied to almost any creature to turn them into a Humanoid or Giant. It also gives some stat boosts, strips away feats and skills and abilities, and possibly also gives a crippling allergy to bludgeoning criticals, but yeah. It's a neat little trick for resetting the type pyramid.

[Pan151]

In the sense that the DM can make up or change rules as she sees fit, sure. There is no support for "remembering" the wasted LA reduction within the actual written rules, however.

According to what rule exactly?



Say we apply the IC template to a warforged, modifying the base LA of 0 by -2 (minimum 0) and then apply a further +2 LA template to it.

There are 2 ways to solve this.

a) The new base LA is 0 - 2 (minimum 0) = 0
A further +2 modifier results in an LA of 0 + 2 = + 2

b) The new base LA is 0 - 2 (minimum 0) = -2 (minimum 0)
A further +2 modifier results in an LA of -2 + 2 (minimum 0) = 0 (minimum 0) = 0


Is there a specific hard rule that states which of the two is correct? Because I haven't found one.

[Karnith]

I don't see how B would ever be an outcome. You apply templates one at a time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingMoreThanOneTemplate), so you can't have the LA going up and down from two sources simultaneously, and Incarnate Construct can only reduce a creature's LA to a minimum of 0. Going through the process of Incarnate Construct and then adding another template, Incarnate Construct would reduce a creature's LA by 2, to a minimum of 0. In the cases that matter here, it would reduce the creature's LA to +0, from either +1 or +0 (if the LA were greater, there would never be a "deficit," even assuming that such a thing existed). The creature's LA after the application of Incarnate Construct would, therefore, be +0; it can't be "-2 but pretend it's +0" because Incarnate Construct cannot reduce a creature's LA below +0. Then you'd apply the next template, which would adjust the creature's LA by the amount given by the next template. Say, from my previous example, we add Vampire. The creature's LA was +0, it gets +8 from Vampire, leading to a total of LA +8.

Incarnate Construct doesn't say that its LA adjustment will create a buffer to cancel out later LA adjustments, so it doesn't. It can't reduce a creature's LA to below 0, so it doesn't do that, either.

[torrasque666]

That was pretty much my exact reasoning.

[Madara]

However, if you use your LA to calculate your ECL

level 3 wizard -2 LA (incarnate construct) = level 1 ECL

then apply whatever template

level 1 ECL + 2 LA (Awesome McTemplate)= level 3 ECL

that's how I believe your friend interprets it, I can see it both ways really.

[Karnith]

However, if you use your LA to calculate your ECL

level 3 wizard -2 LA (incarnate construct) = level 1 ECL
Incarnate Construct cannot reduce LA below 0, though, because it specifically says so in the Level Adjustment line of the template's description. In your example, you'd never get to ECL 1, because you'd get a Level 3 Wizard with LA +0, apply Incarnate Construct, and have LA +0, for an ECL of 3 (the same as you started with).

[Divide by Zero]

However, if you use your LA to calculate your ECL

level 3 wizard -2 LA (incarnate construct) = level 1 ECL

then apply whatever template

level 1 ECL + 2 LA (Awesome McTemplate)= level 3 ECL

that's how I believe your friend interprets it, I can see it both ways really.

ECL and LA are different things, though. The fact that your ECL is still positive has nothing to do with the limitation on LA going below 0.

[Pan151]

You apply templates one at a time, so you can't have the LA going up and down from two sources simultaneously

Which is exactly what I'm doing:

Warforged has LA +0
IC Warforged has LA -2 (effective LA = +0), because +0 -2 (effective LA = +0) = -2 (effective LA = +0)
Fiendish IC Warforged has LA +0 because +2 -2 (effective LA = +0) = +0 (effective LA = +0) = +0

I'm applying the templates exactly as the rules demand. It just so happens that there are no specific rules about how an LA modifier of "-x (minimum y)" interacts with subsecuent LA modifiers.

[Karnith]

Which is exactly what I'm doing:

Warforged has LA +0
IC Warforged has LA -2 (effective LA = +0), because +0 -2 (effective LA = +0) = -2 (effective LA = +0)
Fiendish IC Warforged has LA +0 because +2 -2 (effective LA = +0) = +0 (effective LA = +0) = +0

I'm applying the templates exactly as the rules demand. It just so happens that there are no specific rules about how an LA modifier of "-x (minimum y)" interacts with subsecuent LA modifiers.
There is no "effective level adjustment," mentioned in the rules of Incarnate Construct or in general. "Minimum 0" literally means that the lowest value that can be attained is 0 (forgiving for grammar). Therefore, the creature's LA cannot be reduced below 0.

Basically, I don't see why you would reason that "minimum 0" means "can have a value below zero but takes on an effective value of 0 until later," particularly when doing so requires you to make up new rules regarding effective level adjustments.

[Pan151]

There is no "effective level adjustment," mentioned in the rules of Incarnate Construct or in general. "Minimum 0" literally means that the lowest value that can be attained is 0 (forgiving for grammar). Therefore, the creature's LA cannot be reduced below 0.

Can you provide the relevant rules' quote?

[torrasque666]

Can you provide the relevant rules' quote?

....Its basic grammar. Are you seriously using the argument of "the rules don't say I can't"?

[Pan151]

....Its basic grammar. Are you seriously using the argument of "the rules don't say I can't"?

I see no grammar, math or any other kind of rule supporting either arguement...

[torrasque666]

well, if the templates are applied one at a time, level adjustment is applied with everything else. It says -2 minimum 0. So it drops your level by 2, with a minimum of 0, when its applied just like any other template raises your level by N when its applied. Thus, when the next template is applied, the level is already 0 thereby raising the level by N.

[Pan151]

well, if the templates are applied one at a time, level adjustment is applied with everything else. It says -2 minimum 0. So it drops your level by 2, with a minimum of 0, when its applied just like any other template raises your level by N when its applied. Thus, when the next template is applied, the level is already 0 thereby raising the level by N.

Alternatively it alters your ECL into ECL -2 (minimum CL) and then a second template of LA +N alters it to ECL -2 + N (minimum CL), and I dare you to prove me that this is wrong by the rules.

[torrasque666]

Alternatively it alters your ECL into ECL -2 (minimum CL) and then a second template of LA +N alters it to ECL -2 + N (minimum CL), and I dare you to prove me that this is wrong by the rules.

Prove yourself right by the rules first. It ostensibly states that it has a minimum of 0. It says nothing about being able to reduce your ECL below 0, it in fact says that IT CAN'T. Otherwise, everyone would play Incarnate Warforged to get two extra levels in.

[Karnith]

Can you provide the relevant rules' quote?
I don't need to (and, if my assertion is correct, I am unable to) provide a rules quote for the first point about effective level adjustment, because my position is that there are no rules for effective level adjustment. It is something that you have created; an Incarnate Construct has a singular value for its level adjustment. There are no rules saying that "minimum" means "the lowest attainable value," because "minimum" is not a defined game term, but I can provide a dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/minimum) citation (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/minimum?s=t), if you want. And my conclusion follows from those points (well, and math); if the lowest attainable value (the minimum) of the creature's level adjustment is zero, then it cannot attain a value lower than zero.

I dare you to prove me that this is wrong by the rules.
Please prove, by the rules and with a specific quote, that krenshars don't shoot laser beams out of their eyes at all times.

There are not rules saying that you can't save LA reductions for later by using effective level adjustment in place of the creature's normal level adjustment because there are not rules saying that you can do that. If there aren't rules for something, you can't do it without introducing new (house) rules. Absent rules for saving LA adjustments for later and using effective level adjustments, then, we don't do those things, we just apply the template as previously described - we don't save the LA reduction for later, we don't give the creature an effective level adjustment, it just gets a new LA value 2 less than what it started with, with a lowest attainable value of 0. Its new LA is (in the cases we care about) +0, and we go on from there.

[Pan151]

Please prove, by the rules and with a specific quote, that krenshars don't shoot laser beams out of their eyes at all times.


You know, there is a world of a difference between "the rules don't say I can't" and "the rules say I can, but they don't say exactly how".

[Karnith]

You know, there is a world of a difference between "the rules don't say I can't" and "the rules say I can, but they don't say exactly how".
You are asking me to provide a rules citation that something the rules never said is something that the rules never said.

Again, we don't get into effective level adjustments and saving LA mitigation for later because there are no rules for it.

[Pan151]

You are asking me to provide a rules citation that something the rules never said is something that the rules never said.

Again, we don't get into effective level adjustments and saving LA mitigation for later because there are no rules for it.

Except I'm not saving LA mitigation. I'm saving the LA itself, period.