Arcane Swordsage tier?

[Yael]

As far as I know, spellcasters are high because of their lists, and as I see it, the swordsage would have a really LOW amount of spells known, and only from the Abjuration, Evocation and Transmutation schools. I don't know, however, how his class features would work, maybe giving bonuses on his prefered "school of magic" because of the Discipline Focus ability? I don't really know how this would work. The AC Bonus is pretty fixeable as every wizard can wear a light chainmail armor with no ASF anyway. Which would be his casting stat? Something here?

[heavyfuel]

At will Disjunction, AMF, Shapechange and Time Stop. Arcane Swordsage is TO

[Yael]

At will Disjunction, AMF, Shapechange and Time Stop. Arcane Swordsage is TO

While that sounds a bit of overpowered there; the swordsage could use those a limited number of times per encounter, right?

[Red Fel]

While that sounds a bit of overpowered there; the swordsage could use those a limited number of times per encounter, right?

It depends. The Arcane Swordsage adaptation is so vague as to be considered almost homebrew; there isn't much explanation given as to how it works, and it relies almost entirely on table-rules.

If, in fact, the Swordsage prepares and executes spells as he would maneuvers, then all he needs to do is take the Adaptive Style feat, and he can take a full-round action to completely replenish his spells. That's assuming, of course, that this is how the Arcane Swordsage works; unfortunately, as stated above, we simply don't know.

Tome of Battle suffered from dreadful editing; the Arcane Swordsage is probably one of the most heinous examples in the book of failing to give any attention to detail.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You only need to cast them once and the encounter is pretty much over, specially for polymorph type spells. And IIRC the Arcane Swordsage doesn't removes the ability to refresh maneuvers, so at level 20 you can use 5 9th level spells in a single combat and if for some unfathomable reason the encounter isn't over you can take a full round action to refresh them (start with Time-stop and you don't even need to get Adaptive style)

[torrasque666]

I think an arcane swordsage uses the same refresh mechanic as a regular one.

[137beth]

While that sounds a bit of overpowered there; the swordsage could use those a limited number of times per encounter, right?

Well, couldn't start with Timestop, then spend its first time-stopped turn recovering the maneuver?
EDIT: Partially swordsaged. Must have been all those arcane swordsages:smalltongue:

[cesius]

As others have noted, depends on how the adaptation is done. If it's done so the Arcane Swordsage's arcane spells are used like a traditional arcane caster then it's less powerful than T1 and T2 gish builds which can pull off +15 to+ 18 BAB and full caster or 17-18 caster progression.

[Yael]

As others have noted, depends on how the adaptation is done. If it's done so the Arcane Swordsage's arcane spells are used like a traditional arcane caster then it's less powerful than T1 and T2 gish builds which can pull off +15 to+ 18 BAB and full caster or 17-18 caster progression.

That is what I mean, at this point (in TO terms, maybe Abjurant champion or some of those PrCs) what tier would the Arcane Swordsage be? Still 3rd?

[Story]

As pointed out before, Arcane Swordsage simply isn't complete. There's too much missing to judge it specifically, so the power level varies based on how you fill in the gaps. But most interpretations are going to be T1.

Remember, Transmutation is one of the 2 most powerful schools in the game, and there are shenanigans you can do with Abjuration and Evocation as well. Even with limited castings per day and no refresh mechanic, it'd almost certainly still be T2.

[chaos_redefined]

It has the same limitations as the sorcerer (limited spells known, but you get to pick them), so shouldn't that make it T2?

[Story]

Well unlimited casting is something the sorcerer can't match and they get spells a level earlier. But technically, that's still tier 2 I suppose.

You know what the Arcane Swordsage really needs? Rainbow Servant.

[HereBeMonsters]

Also it is not restricted to those three classes, those three are specifically listed as closest to what his normal disciplines can do. So in theory he can take every school of magic.. now add the refresh mechanic and thats some powerful playing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's stronger than Tier 1. When you can use Disintegrate or Ruby Ray of Reversal at will at level 11, you're in TO territory.

Pick Heroics as one of your maneuvers. Use it to temporarily gain Martial Study, pick a spell instead of a maneuver for that. Use Adaptive Style to ready that and to refresh Heroics. Initiate that new spell you just picked up, and you can use Heroics to do it again. Every three rounds you're using any spell in the game up to the highest level that a Wizard of your level can cast. This can be used to put every hour/level and 24-hour buff in the game on your party, and to gain exactly the right spell to handle any situation, with zero preparation and zero resources spent apart from action economy.

[chaos_redefined]

Disintegrate is what you are worried about?

In any case... Sorcerers can still break the game. The difference between T1 and T2 is the number of ways they have access to for game breakage. And arcane swordsages can break the games in a limited number of ways. If he finds those methods are somehow insufficient for a situation, he is unable to change those limited options.

In comparison, a wizard sees a situation that he isn't prepared for, and can come back tomorrow with something more appropriate.

[Vaz]

At will Disjunction, AMF, Shapechange and Time Stop. Arcane Swordsage is TO

1 - they are not at will
2 - there is no defined recharge mechanism
3 - time stop is irrelevant, shapechange only needs to be cast once, amf weakens you and disjunction destroys your loot. So what?

Arcane Swordsage is tier 2, maybe tier 3 depending on how you rate things like the Ardent.

[Bluydee]

1 - they are not at will
2 - there is no defined recharge mechanism
3 - time stop is irrelevant, shapechange only needs to be cast once, amf weakens you and disjunction destroys your loot. So what?

Arcane Swordsage is tier 2, maybe tier 3 depending on how you rate things like the Ardent.

There is a defined recharge mechanism as a normal swordsage, and with adaptive style it takes one fullround action,

Also, time stop is irrelevant? What?

[Gemini476]

It's Tier 2. It's crazy powerful yes - as written all of its spells are actually (Su) maneuvers (and thus pretty much at-will and bypass SR and what not), but they also can't benefit from metamagic and have a dreadfully low amount of spells known.

If they're also limited to personal and touch range Abjurations/Evocations/Transmutations (presumably from the Sorc/Wiz list, given WotC's policy regarding acknowledging non-core books and the word "Arcane"), then that means that they also have a teeny tiny spell list.

Yes, it's game-breakingly powerful. It's probably just tier 2, though, since the definition of tier 1 requires versatility that the Arcane Swordsage simply lacks. They have twenty-four spells known from a limited list.

(Can they even craft magical items? I know that spell-likes can substitute for spells in some cases, but what about supernatural abilities?
Or are the spells still spells known, despite being quote "cast" unquote? Who knows.)

[heavyfuel]

1 - they are not at will
2 - there is no defined recharge mechanism
3 - time stop is irrelevant, shapechange only needs to be cast once, amf weakens you and disjunction destroys your loot. So what?

1 - Yes, they are (as long as you spend your full round to recover your spells. Bet Timestop doesn't sound so bad now)
2 - Yes, there is.
3 - Lol what? AMF weakens you, but can be used temporarily to bypass magical protections (usually outside combat) Shapechange "only" lasts for little over 3 hours at lv 20, so you'll need to cast it at least a few times per day to keep it up whenever you're awake, and Disjunction can be thought as a really powerful spell with a nasty material component, situationally useful as a last resort. I also fail to see how at will time stop is irrelevant, as I've mentioned before.

And these were just spells in core. Outside core you have at will Celerity, Elemental Body, Maw of Chaos, Reaving Dispel.

Because the "spells" are actually (Su) maneuvers, no spell has ANY component for you. No costly material component, no XP component. You can cast things like Forcecage without paying the material component.

Also as it's been mentioned, Abjuration Evocation and Transmutation are just suggestions. You can learn from any school you want, and Heroics basically gives you unlimited "spells known".

Arcane Swordsage is so TO it's not even funny.

[PraxisVetli]

Wasn't there a typo about Swordsage's Maneuvers known?
I just read it, and I don't see what's wrong, but I thought I remembered there being something terribly wrong.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You are probably thinking about the crusaders or warblades stance progression, it isn't synchronized with the levels they get access to new level of maneuvers and thus you either have to pick up the stances with a feat (which in itself is somewhat dysfunctional since Martial Stance needs martial study even if you have native access to maneuvers) or wait even more levels.

[Story]

There's a typo in Swordsage's skills at level 1.

[PraxisVetli]

You are probably thinking about the crusaders or warblades stance progression, it isn't synchronized with the levels they get access to new level of maneuvers and thus you either have to pick up the stances with a feat (which in itself is somewhat dysfunctional since Martial Stance needs martial study even if you have native access to maneuvers) or wait even more levels.

Huh.
I thought it was something about their maneuvers each level adding, not overwriting. I dunno, maybe I'm crazy.

There's a typo in Swordsage's skills at level 1.

Yeah, I knew about that one, that's nit what I'm thinkin.
meh, its hardly important.
back to your lives, citizens

[Bluydee]

Considering that it is merely a suggestion for spell school, it means you can get a supernatural wish at will. That is enough said.

[Vaz]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11530.msg229982#msg229982

This is a more in depth look at the Arcane Swordsage. Have fun

[HereBeMonsters]

If you prefer, you could
instead emphasize the magical talents of the swordsage by
giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place
of maneuvers of equivalent level. In general, spells from the
schools of abjuration, evocation, and transmutation are most
appropriate for a swordsage of this type, especially spells with
a range of personal or touch. The arcane spell is “cast” as if
it were a martial maneuver. In this case, you should remove
the class’s light armor profi ciency and reduce the swordsage’s
Hit Die to d6. - ToB pg 20
Emphasis is mine. Notice that this does not say they are Restricted to those schools. Which means they can learn spells from any school.
The link above is interesting but given open access to all schools might make them much stronger giving them access to all schools a wizard, druid, or clerics can gain access too.

[Vortenger]

This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=jrkl6ucbbnui7tcdo9nq68kf26&topic=11530.msg229982#msg229982) is a mandatory read (well, I think, anyways...) for anyone considering using Arcane Swordsage. His breakdown of the rules interactions (contained within the spoiler) are pretty on point, and the transition is not as seamless as many take it to be. My favorite point: AS gains spells, not maneuvers and does not inherit its maneuver refreshing options, so 1/encounter is pretty much the limit. Unlimited out-of-combat casting is huge, but let's face it. This game devotes a huge portion of focus to stabbing things in the face.

I'd say T1, but not like any existing T1. T-zero only applies when using things like Rainbow Servant or other already (potentially) campaign shattering PrC's.

edit: HerebBeMonsters, to address your point, let me quote some text from the linked article: "This suggested adaptation also suggests limiting ASS to Abjuration, Evocation, & Transmutation Spells with the Range of Personal or Touch. If you're not following the Supplement's suggestions, you don't have an ASS to begin with now do you? So follow the suggestion fully and don't pretend you can stop half-way through." I think he said it better than I can. This also addresses those who think that an ASS can disintegrate indefinitely.

[Story]

It seems to be implying DM adjucation of spells chosen. Which makes sense, since the entry is vague and incomplete enough that it requires houserulilng no matter what you do.

[HereBeMonsters]

This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=jrkl6ucbbnui7tcdo9nq68kf26&topic=11530.msg229982#msg229982) is a mandatory read (well, I think, anyways...) for anyone considering using Arcane Swordsage. His breakdown of the rules interactions (contained within the spoiler) are pretty on point, and the transition is not as seamless as many take it to be. My favorite point: AS gains spells, not maneuvers and does not inherit its maneuver refreshing options, so 1/encounter is pretty much the limit. Unlimited out-of-combat casting is huge, but let's face it. This game devotes a huge portion of focus to stabbing things in the face.

I'd say T1, but not like any existing T1. T-zero only applies when using things like Rainbow Servant or other already (potentially) campaign shattering PrC's.

edit: HerebBeMonsters, to address your point, let me quote some text from the linked article: "This suggested adaptation also suggests limiting ASS to Abjuration, Evocation, & Transmutation Spells with the Range of Personal or Touch. If you're not following the Supplement's suggestions, you don't have an ASS to begin with now do you? So follow the suggestion fully and don't pretend you can stop half-way through." I think he said it better than I can.
Except as shown in my quote above it does not suggest limiting it simply tells what schools are most appropriate for the disciplines it already has. Basically what a Swordsage can do is mostly covered by those schools. It does not RESTRICT anything.

[Vortenger]

Yes, because the whole thing is a suggestion. There are no restrictions because there are no 'rules' for it in the first place. So you follow the 'suggestions', or you don't have an ASS. You feel me?

Your argument smacks of, 'well, the book doesn't tell me I can't, so obviously its ok'.

edit: This sounds a bit more harsh and less fleshed out than I'd intended. Apologies.

[Red Fel]

Yes, because the whole thing is a suggestion. There are no restrictions because there are no 'rules' for it in the first place. So you follow the 'suggestions', or you don't have an ASS. You feel me?

Your argument smacks of, 'well, the book doesn't tell me I can't, so obviously its ok'.

And thus we have the dilemma. The suggestions in the book are vague and incomplete, so we can't follow them. But if we don't follow them, we're not using the Arcane Swordsage as written, so we've got to adhere to what's in the book. But the suggestions in the book are vague and incomplete...

[heavyfuel]

And thus we have the dilemma. The suggestions in the book are vague and incomplete, so we can't follow them. But if we don't follow them, we're not using the Arcane Swordsage as written, so we've got to adhere to what's in the book. But the suggestions in the book are vague and incomplete...

Which is why Arcane Swordsage is, in and of itself, a bad idea. You either follow the guidelines given by the book, in which case one of the most powerful classes in the game. Or you don't follow the book's guidelines, in which case, why use the book at all? You might as well play the Lightning Warrior and call it a toned down version of the ASS.

[HereBeMonsters]

Ok your argument is idiotic. I posted the EXACT quote from the book. It does not say that the ASS have to use those three schools those three are listed as more closely related to their disciplines that that have normally.

[cesius]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11530.msg229982#msg229982

This is a more in depth look at the Arcane Swordsage. Have fun

This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=jrkl6ucbbnui7tcdo9nq68kf26&topic=11530.msg229982#msg229982) is a mandatory read (well, I think, anyways...) for anyone considering using Arcane Swordsage. His breakdown of the rules interactions (contained within the spoiler) are pretty on point, and the transition is not as seamless as many take it to be. My favorite point: AS gains spells, not maneuvers and does not inherit its maneuver refreshing options, so 1/encounter is pretty much the limit. Unlimited out-of-combat casting is huge, but let's face it. This game devotes a huge portion of focus to stabbing things in the face.

I'd say T1, but not like any existing T1. T-zero only applies when using things like Rainbow Servant or other already (potentially) campaign shattering PrC's.

edit: HerebBeMonsters, to address your point, let me quote some text from the linked article: "This suggested adaptation also suggests limiting ASS to Abjuration, Evocation, & Transmutation Spells with the Range of Personal or Touch. If you're not following the Supplement's suggestions, you don't have an ASS to begin with now do you? So follow the suggestion fully and don't pretend you can stop half-way through." I think he said it better than I can. This also addresses those who think that an ASS can disintegrate indefinitely.

That was a very informative read. My opinion is T1 or T2 depending on spell list (so most likely T1).

[Vortenger]

And thus we have the dilemma. The suggestions in the book are vague and incomplete, so we can't follow them. But if we don't follow them, we're not using the Arcane Swordsage as written, so we've got to adhere to what's in the book. But the suggestions in the book are vague and incomplete...

Agreed. That's why I left the link. The article therein is the most comprehensive attempt I have seen to date addressing the vagaries of the adaption as written and turning it into something usable.

edit: Here, I'm extremely curious how following the suggestions in their entirety is idiotic, perhaps you would explain further? It would seem your interpretation is that you can take any spell but that the ones delineated by the suggestion are simply more thematically appropriate. Isn't that the interpretation that causes the t-zero unplay-ably awesome class that people are (rightfully) suspect of? The alternative approach I offer of taking only the spells described leaves a powerful class bordering on T1-T2. which one seems more plausible...hmmm?

[Douglas]

Agreed. That's why I left the link. The article therein is the most comprehensive attempt I have seen to date addressing the vagaries of the adaption as written and turning it into something usable.
Have you seen my homebrew version (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187632-Arcane-Swordsage-Making-it-actually-work)? [/shameless plug]:smallbiggrin:

[Red Fel]

Ok your argument is idiotic. I posted the EXACT quote from the book. It does not say that the ASS have to use those three schools those three are listed as more closely related to their disciplines that that have normally.

First, "idiotic" is a strong and unnecessary word. Please don't resort to sharp comments like that when something more like "I strongly disagree" would suffice.

Second, his argument is as valid as yours. As I understand it: Yours: The book offers suggestions, not requirements, which the player (with DM consent) is free to take or leave. The whole thing is a suggestion, so none of it is binding RAW. A valid position to take. His: The entire concept is a suggestion, and if you're ignoring part of it you're not really taking the concept at all. You're building homebrew on top of homebrew. Also a valid position to take.
It's okay to disagree. Let's just be civil about it. Especially when the subject of disagreement is something as poorly-written and ill-defined as the Arcane Swordsage.

[StreamOfTheSky]

No matter how "friendly" your reading of its text is, it is at most tier 2 by the definitions of the tiers. It has a very limited amount of spells it can know, and cannot switch them to others known as needed like a wizard.

I am the first one to tell you that having a distinction between tier 1 and 2 is ridiculous, they're both game-breakingly overpowered and the difference is more footnote than actual issue, and tier 2's can often be made even more raw powerful than tier 1's with some effort.

But seriously..."it's more powerful than wizard, so it's higher tier!" Is just a poor argument, especially if in other threads you've agreed there should be a distinction between the two tiers. Really now. :smallannoyed:

[Chronos]

And this is a good place to remind everyone that the tiers aren't actually a measure of power per se, but of versatility. So the arcane swordsage tops out at Tier 2, even though (with the right spells allowed) it can be more powerful than a wizard.

[heavyfuel]

And this is a good place to remind everyone that the tiers aren't actually a measure of power per se, but of versatility. So the arcane swordsage tops out at Tier 2, even though (with the right spells allowed) it can be more powerful than a wizard.

While true that ASS is Tier 2, it doesn't stop, in my opinion, from being TO. Same thing as a d2 Crusader. While technically Tier 3, is still TO

[Chronos]

I wouldn't say that the AS is TO, as that depends on what you do with it. I would just say that it's incomplete, and leave it at that. Some ways of completing it leave it overpowered with a little optimization, some ways leave it overpowered even without optimization, and some ways of completing it leave it reasonably balanced or even weak.

[Douglas]

No matter how "friendly" your reading of its text is, it is at most tier 2 by the definitions of the tiers. It has a very limited amount of spells it can know, and cannot switch them to others known as needed like a wizard.

I am the first one to tell you that having a distinction between tier 1 and 2 is ridiculous, they're both game-breakingly overpowered and the difference is more footnote than actual issue, and tier 2's can often be made even more raw powerful than tier 1's with some effort.

But seriously..."it's more powerful than wizard, so it's higher tier!" Is just a poor argument, especially if in other threads you've agreed there should be a distinction between the two tiers. Really now. :smallannoyed:
Actually, by a friendly reading it can gain spells known as required, on even less notice than a wizard, by the simple expedient of using Heroics to gain Martial Study for a spell-as-maneuver. By that trick with a friendly reading, every wizard spell in the game is never more than a standard action away.

[Troacctid]

Of course that requires reading Martial Study as able to give you spells, which means any character can take it and get spells.

[heavyfuel]

Of course that requires reading Martial Study as able to give you spells, which means any character can take it and get spells.

Well, one of the things the text is pretty clear on is this, when it says: "giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level."

Martial Study uses the same verb, "learn", in its description. By strict RAW, the Arcane Swordsage can use Martial Study much like a Sorcerer can use the no-shenenigans interpretation of Extra Spell. Only since Heroics can now be cast at will, he pretty much has every allowed spell as a floating spell known. Just pick and choose according to the situation.

[Douglas]

Of course that requires reading Martial Study as able to give you spells, which means any character can take it and get spells.
No, it requires reading that Arcane Swordsage's "spell instead of maneuver" ability works for maneuvers learned from any source, which has no implications for any character that isn't an Arcane Swordsage.

[Larkas]

I really don't get it. Why would anyone choose readings of ASS that make it unplayably broken?

[nedz]

If it wasn't for the Heroics trick I'd agree that it's T2, with that trick though then it's T0. Since you have to houserule ASS in, it would seem reasonable to houserule that trick out. Given the nature of spells in 3.5 though, I'd be surprised if there weren't more tricks like that available.

The number of slots available is rarely an issue in actual play, except at low level. There may be 14,400 rounds in a day but very few of those are spent on actually casting spells.

[Gemini476]

While true that ASS is Tier 2, it doesn't stop, in my opinion, from being TO. Same thing as a d2 Crusader. While technically Tier 3, is still TO

As a character, the d2 Crusader is probably Tier 2. They have a huge nuke (literally infinite single-target melee damage), but that's also their only nuke.

The constituent classes are probably Tier 3-4ish, but that doesn't mean that a specific character can't be of a higher or lower tier. (e.g. Pun-Pun is a Tier 1 Paladin, Nup-Nup is a Tier 6 Wizard.) If your character is capable of breaking the game in half, they're probably Tier 2. In fact, Tier 2 doesn't care about versatality at all! That's what Tier 1 and 3 are for. If the class can break the game, it's Tier 1-2. If it can contribute on its own, it's Tier 3-4. If it can't without some optimization, Tier 5-6. It's a tad more complicated than that, but yeah.

The Arcane Swordsage is most likely Tier 2 as a class, although if they have access to Heroics and are allowed to get more spells known via that then you have a Paragon Surge scenario and they're Tier 1. (I'd personally list the two cases separately, much like Pathfinder tier lists before the faq/errata listed classes with and without Paragon Surge separately.)

[Fax Celestis]

Wasn't there a typo about Swordsage's Maneuvers known?
I just read it, and I don't see what's wrong, but I thought I remembered there being something terribly wrong.

You're thinking of it's BAB. Take a good look at that.

[Urpriest]

No matter how "friendly" your reading of its text is, it is at most tier 2 by the definitions of the tiers. It has a very limited amount of spells it can know, and cannot switch them to others known as needed like a wizard.

I am the first one to tell you that having a distinction between tier 1 and 2 is ridiculous, they're both game-breakingly overpowered and the difference is more footnote than actual issue, and tier 2's can often be made even more raw powerful than tier 1's with some effort.

But seriously..."it's more powerful than wizard, so it's higher tier!" Is just a poor argument, especially if in other threads you've agreed there should be a distinction between the two tiers. Really now. :smallannoyed:

I agree. By definition, it can't be Tier 1. It's either Tier 2, and just a very strong Tier 2, or it's Tier 0, depending on how you define Tier 0. For me, one possible definition of Tier 0 is "access to game-breaking abilities (in the sense of tier 1-2) but removes a fundamental limitation on those abilities". So Psionic Artificer and StP Erudite (and Psion who is friends with an StP Erudite) are Tier 0 because they remove the "different spell lists and different power sources" limitations, Arcane Swordsage is Tier 0 because it removes the "usage per day" limitation.

[Chronos]

While there are obviously multiple ways to improve on a wizard, the one I think of most often as "tier 0" is "access to a full Tier 1 list, without preparation". This is where the Beholder Mage sits (though they also have extreme action-economy-breaking), and the psion who's gotten every power ever chiurgeried onto them (even without bringing in spells via Spell-to-Power), and the rainbow warsnake once its schtick becomes fully active, and a spellbook caster who's managed to qualify for Versatile Spellcaster without a houserule.