What key points are there for a 3.5 player joining a pathfinder group?

[aza9999]

From what i understand pathfinder took the D20/3.5 rules as their basis and then tweaked and changed a few things as well as adding new stuff.

What are the most important things someone who is used to 3.5 rules needs to know when joining an established pathfinder group?

Thanks

[Thurbane]

Only played PF for a brief period myself, but I would say: favored class rules, and skill points/skill system.

Oh, and all the base races got more powerful...half-orcs actually became usable! :smallsmile:

[Dusk Eclipse]

This guide might be a little dated, but it still is a really good: The 3.5/Pathfinder Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?136890-The-3-5-Pathfinder-Handbook)

[aza9999]

Thanks for the advice :)

[Amphetryon]

Understand what CMD and CMB are. Review for yourself which skills got folded together, like spot/listen/search into perception. Decide for yourself whether PrCs in Pathfinder are worth more than staying in the class in which you started.

These were the main things I found I needed to review when I first joined a PF group.

[molten_dragon]

favored class rules, and skill points/skill system.
Oh, and all the base races got more powerful...half-orcs actually became usable! :smallsmile:


Understand what CMD and CMB are.

These are some of the big ones.

Also, feats come every odd level now, not every 3 levels. And some very common feats work differently in PF than in 3.5. Cleave and power attack are two good examples.

Classes are different, but that's spelled out. A lot of spells are different too, but again, that's more specific.

[Alent]

It isn't exactly a 3.5/PF conversion point, but it's probably a good idea to learn the biases of the table so you can avoid offending them.

Some Pathfinder players are strongly opposed to dip builds, others think that using the PF rules for importing 3.5 stuff is cheating, some think character optimization is Damage/turn optimization and will expect the wrong thing of you if you mention optimization.

Also, be really careful with spells, feats, and their errata- if the group treats the "FAQrata" as a primary source, many feats don't work as they appear in the book, they work as they appear in the FAQ's adjustments of the book.

[Raven777]

Also, be really careful with spells, feats, and their errata- if the group treats the "FAQrata" as a primary source, many feats don't work as they appear in the book, they work as they appear in the FAQ's adjustments of the book.

And God help you if the group treats forum posts by the developers as official rulings. Some very important clarifications only exist as shot-from-the-hip rulings on unstickied threads, like the one clarifying that ability bonuses cannot be applied to a feature more than once (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=385?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#19247) or the one about Shadow Projection not allowing you to cast spells (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=420?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#20982) (despite the spell wording being no different from Magic Jar or Astral Projection).

[aza9999]

Lots of great tips, thanks everyone

[Firechanter]

In a nutshell: over time, PF has accumulated so many little changes that basically _everything_ works slightly differently. When PF was published, Paizo claimed 3.5 compatibility, but you can pretty much forget about that now. It's especially hazardous to old-time 3.5 players: either you start looking up every little thing to make sure, or you keep falling into traps.

Generally, all the tried and proven recipes for success in 3.5 won't work anymore in PF. You basically have to learn the game from scratch.

As for the CMB vs CMD thing: the important thing to note here is that these values are always the same in any given fight, except if feats kick in. In 3.5, you can choose your Special Attacks to specifically attack enemy weak points; i.e. something that goes against Str for weak but quick enemies, or Dex vice versa. In PF it makes no difference, you always target the same CMD.

Example: let's say around level 5ish you are up against a Will O' Wisp and were already smart enough to get some Electricity resistance.
3.5: You grapple it. WoW's Grapple check is -3. Even the party Wizard can do it.
PF: WoW's CMD is 24, so let's face it, you're outta luck.

That's just one very specific example, but quite typical.

On another note, I don't know how much you are into immersive roleplaying, but if you are, a lot of PF class abilities and suchlike will give you a headache. Take the Inquisitor: he has an ability called "Judgment", which works something like this:
1. Pick any opponent. Doesn't matter if it's a mindless vermin or anything.
2. Declare it "Enemy of the Faith" and pass Judgment
3. Depending on the Judgment, gain boons like +2 to Armour Class.

In other words, it's much better for your sanity if you view PF strictly as a game and never question the gamey mechanics. If you try to make sense of it, your toenails will roll up.

[Crimson Wolf]

Okay so pathfinder just like 3.5 has many books to add content to it over the years. Thing is for the most part I have seen really not much of this content every breaks the game or seems hard to obtain. Almost all pathfinder books can by found in PDF format on pazio's website for sale and pretty fair prices. They as others mentioned changed the skill system and to me I loved the changed. No more hide AND move silently it is now stealth. Also the art in most of their books is absolutely jaw dropping and in at least my opinion makes reading them a bit more lively :3

There are also a fair bit of weapons and armor just like 3.5 with only id say slightly less in terms of armor (though still has a lot of armor). It also has from a few other books and the main books a good amount of materials you can have weapons and armor made if making it have slightly more materials than 3.5 in terms of item customization. Also as stated beforey ou have favored class options, now instead of having experience penalty and such if your race didn't have a favored class, now favored class gives a tiny buff if your race takes a class which their races favors, but all can still choose either +1 skill point or +1 health.

Also one of my favorite things, TRAITS! In the advanced guide they added a unique system called traits. It handles as a small bonus you can chose on your character to help add a bit more originality and flavor while giving a tiny buff but in no way game breaking. Most games vary in how many traits you can choose on creation but I have seen usually two allowed in a lot, sometimes three if your DM feel generous. And almost every single book since then has added more and more and more traits to choose from giving a massive collection to mix and match! A bit more base/starting classes to choose from than 3.5 with some that just are outright awesome and original (like a personal favorite of mine, the alchemist!~ ). The only setback I saw for some parts was absolutely screwing two weapon fighting feats (as a thread I made a while ago called is it worth it?) which basically the end everyone agreed a home rule would/should be used when using it. Also like 3.5 a absolute GIANT collection of equipment to choose from as little nicknacks to add life, flavor, and options to your game.

[Firest Kathon]

There is also a free Conversion Guide (http://paizo.com/products/btpy89m6) by Paizo, which lists the differences and helps you in converting a character.

[Dalebert]

Traits are a great way to get one or two skills added as (effectively) class skills so it's a way to offset the fact that they made brief level dips even less attractive. Those along with archetypes allow for a considerable amount of customization without multi-classing. Hero Labs is expensive but really nice. I just do a search of the traits there for the skill I want and see all the options and decide if it fits my character. I imagine you could do the same thing on a PDF or their website. Sometimes picking traits can help flesh out your background and your character if you're not the type to come up with elaborate ones on your own.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Things aren't 'dead' until the reach negative Con, not -10 HP.

[bekeleven]

Don't play a fighter. Feats are worse, and combat maneuvers are worse. Power attack/ubercharging was killed, trip is nerfed, and grapple (noted above) is nerfed somehow. Also a fighter now gains relatively fewer feats compared to other classes (+100% compared to +160%) and feats are worse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17458651&postcount=48). If you do want to play a mundane martial character, just know that you'll need twice as many feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17457535&postcount=35) to get up to the baseline competence you had in 3.5 with one or two feats.

[Sith_Happens]

Mundane feats are worse

Fixed that for you. Caster feats have (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/dazing-spell-metamagic) never (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic) been (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection) better (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry).

Also don't play a Rogue. Trapfinding is far less necessary, the difference between a class skill and a cross-class skill is minimal past early levels, and they nerfed or outright removed most of the ways to make an enemy lose their DEX to AC.