The Decline and Fall of the Magic Empire.

[Sardia]

Let's assume that the wizards and clerics have gotten together and actually managed to take over their society, setting it up as a magocracy of sorts.
Is there any way you can think of for such a society to collapse, or ways to make it fall apart from invasion by another magic-heavy society?

Edit: Another potential refinement-- what if everyone involved is limited to what's in the SRD? No new tools, species, or hypotheticals.

[Swordguy]

Divine intervention

Natural disaster

Magic-resistant diseases

Civil War

The stink of cheese becomes overpowering and people start dying from asphyxiation.

Magical Disaster (or, how NOT to create artifacts)

[Talyn]

What is the general alignment of this society? A Lawful Good society will crumble very differently from a Lawful Evil one, and a Chaotic one even more so than that. Also, what gods do the clerics worship? Are the gods in favor of the Empire's continued existence?

[rollfrenzy]

I actually am in the process of home brewing a campaign about this scenario. (actually it's about the fall then reawakening of magic). Basically This uber magic world has a world war and the "bomb" is dropped, cutting off magic and causing the world to decay into anarchy.

[Sardia]

What is the general alignment of this society? A Lawful Good society will crumble very differently from a Lawful Evil one, and a Chaotic one even more so than that. Also, what gods do the clerics worship? Are the gods in favor of the Empire's continued existence?

Let's assume Lawful neutral, with a heavy helping of Lawful Neutral clerics to go along with it-- after all, if you're going into the clergy, going into the clergy that helps rule the country is rather appealing.
As long as the empire keeps order, the LN deities should approve.

[Thomas]

Well, creating an epic spell to steal the power of the god of magic, accidentally causing a collapse of all magic when you find yourself unable to maintain it (which is suddenly your job), and having all your neat flying cities crash into the ground is a popular one...

[Were-Sandwich]

Apocalypse form the sky, and lots of them. Or the Infinite-Falling-Copper-Peice rick, but that has a blast radius measured in ight years, so might not be subtle enough.

[Indon]

Hmm... my favorite scenarios for that would be:

-Teeing off the powers that be, such that magic ceases to be. At least, for a while. Typically linked to magic abuse.

-The "Fortress of Mana" scenario, whereby a work of such powerful magic is made that its' existence saps the entire planet of other magic and/or forces the magical forces (in a gaia-type scenario) to react violently.

-A world war eventually leads to the destruction of huge swaths of land (there's a D&D world in which this happened, iirc), and control over magic spikes; in many places, it becomes illegal and most magic everywhere else becomes scarce. Hatred for anything that makes funny gestures abounds.

[Fax Celestis]

Plague that targets magic users.

Conversely, rise of an alternative source of power (psionics, spirit magic, incarnum, shadow magic, binding, &c.).

[Piccamo]

Conversely, rise of an alternative source of power (psionics, spirit magic, incarnum, shadow magic, binding, &c.).

I like that one. Rebellion by those with a new magic against those who are too unwilling to change their ways or see others'.

[Emperor Tippy]

Remember. An empire ruled by wizards and clerics is even harder to bring down then a regular empire. The wizards have the intelligence and teh clerics have the wisdom. They will have thought of most everything. 30-40 Int and 30-40 Wis wizards/clerics tends to mean that they are very hard to defeat if played properly.

The only people that stand half a chance are those with similar mental ability and chances are that anyone who rises to that level will be offered a position of power and made part of the ruling elite.

[bosssmiley]

A plague of thaumovores
Rebellion against an oppressive ruling hegemony
The Wrath of the Immortals(tm)
Magic WW3

[Indon]

Remember. An empire ruled by wizards and clerics is even harder to bring down then a regular empire. The wizards have the intelligence and teh clerics have the wisdom. They will have thought of most everything. 30-40 Int and 30-40 Wis wizards/clerics tends to mean that they are very hard to defeat if played properly.

The only people that stand half a chance are those with similar mental ability and chances are that anyone who rises to that level will be offered a position of power and made part of the ruling elite.

Or some diplomat-bard to waltz up and accept the reigns of power?

Rulership requires charisma.

[elliott20]

I cast spell of mastery and banish all other spellcasters to a different plane!!! LOL ZOMG!!! I w1n!!!

ugh, my head hurts from that.

Emperor Tippy, you live around the DC area? That's like 20 minutes away from me.
<-- NOVA guy myself.

[Telonius]

I'll go with, rot from within. Wizards are naturally kind of secretive, so like to keep their research off-limits to other people. Clerics have a tendency to get involved in large bureaucratic organizations that are resistant to change. A sufficiently sneakly Diplomancer would be able to see those kinds of factions, and bring down the whole thing like a house of cards within about 30 years.

EDIT: Hey Elliott, Arlington-based here. Hooray for beltway insiders! ... and that may well explain my method of toppling the empire.

[Ramza00]

Civil War (programmed amnesia anyone :-P)

[Redwizard26]

A massive epic level spell uses all the magic force within several hundred light years since we all know that magic travels faster than light with in a decade it returns but for those long years those mages that were so powerful are high level commoners

[elliott20]

I'll go with, rot from within. Wizards are naturally kind of secretive, so like to keep their research off-limits to other people. Clerics have a tendency to get involved in large bureaucratic organizations that are resistant to change. A sufficiently sneakly Diplomancer would be able to see those kinds of factions, and bring down the whole thing like a house of cards within about 30 years.

EDIT: Hey Elliott, Arlington-based here. Hooray for beltway insiders! ... and that may well explain my method of toppling the empire.
w00t! NOVA gamers assemble!!!

[Mewtarthio]

The Power of Love and Friendship!

[Emperor Tippy]

Or some diplomat-bard to waltz up and accept the reigns of power?

Rulership requires charisma.

You don't think the mages will have thought of that? All they have to do is Programmed Amnesia the bard to follow all their orders and let him have the figure head position.



Civil War (programmed amnesia anyone :-P)

Requires a high level caster or psion. Anyone with that kind of talent will be in the ruling class or will be dead.

Elliot, yeah I live close to silver spring, MD.

[Sardia]

I like that one. Rebellion by those with a new magic against those who are too unwilling to change their ways or see others'.

Of course, you've then replaced one magocracy with another one, just with a slightly different name.
Can anything replace a magocracy with some other form of government?

[Exarch]

What about some warrior with a chip on his shoulder finding an ancient weapon or relic that creates a decently large anti-magic field.

Or there could be invaders that are immune to magic as a race.

[Sergeantbrother]

1
Maybe jealousy from the gods. Perhaps the magical empire becomes so powerful that the gods feel threatened by it and go to war with the Empire of magic. Maybe they just direct their priestly followers to oppose the mages, or perhaps they cut off the flow of magic to the world.

2
Maybe the most powerful among the nobility of the magical kingdom have found a way to become immortal. They then feel threatened by younger magic users who may some day rival their power. They purge young magic users from the kingdom, from perhaps even the world, and hunt them down when ever possible. Eventually the rulers become so far removed from human concerns that they begin to leave the earthly plane to take their place among the gods. When this happens the kingdom crumbles as the fabric which has held it together disappears.

3
Perhaps there is some substance - pure cold iron, gold, a rare flower, etc. - that allows a mere mortal to resist even the powerful magic of a 20th level caster. Perhaps when this substance is discovered, the oppressed peasantry can successfully revolt.

4
Perhaps there is only so much magic energy in existance. Perhaps the heavy use of magic in this kingdom is depleting the supply. Perhaps even the gods themselves also draw from the same source of magic - and this source is being used up. The power of magic users start to decline - and they must conceal their growing weakness from the populace as they can no longer prevent a revolt.

5
Maybe the most powerful and inquisitive of the magic users conduct a massive magical experiement/project. The goal of this endeavor is to gain access to incredible magical ability, to become like gods, perhaps all of them having the ability to cast Wish at will without the intention being perverted. BUT, it doesn't go exactly as they desire. Perhaps so much magical energy is released that it destroys all of the powerful magic users in the kingdom. Maybe it unleashes horrible demons or other bizzare creatures who wreak havoc on the mortal world and the magical kingdom. Maybe it gives these mages (or perhaps just one of them) the power they seek, but they become insane and drunken with power, they destroy other magic users out of jealousy/rage/cruelty/insanity.

6
Perhaps the magic users servants (golems, undead, summoned monsters, etc.) start to gain free will or the ability to resist the mage's control of them. The magic users have counted so much on their magical servants and used magic to make them so powerful that its catastrophic when the revolt.

[Morty]

The huge amounts of magic used by empire caused a collapse of whatever source of magic your world uses, and magic disappeared, to return much weaker, so it's impossible to build a new empire.

[Piccamo]

Remember. An empire ruled by wizards and clerics is even harder to bring down then a regular empire. The wizards have the intelligence and teh clerics have the wisdom. They will have thought of most everything. 30-40 Int and 30-40 Wis wizards/clerics tends to mean that they are very hard to defeat if played properly.

The only people that stand half a chance are those with similar mental ability and chances are that anyone who rises to that level will be offered a position of power and made part of the ruling elite.

Unless no one is that high level...they could be around level 10 - 12.


Of course, you've then replaced one magocracy with another one, just with a slightly different name.
Can anything replace a magocracy with some other form of government?

It is certainly possible. Though, just because another group of mages defeats the original one doesn't mean this set will necessarily want to lead or rule. That would make it sorta like the Empire v. Rebellion in SW or the second group of casters are a bunch of anarchists and don't want any sort of government.

[Emperor Tippy]

Unless no one is that high level...they could be around level 10 - 12.
They wouldn't rule then.

Level 17+ casters can rule world wide empires. Level 10-12 ones can't. They are to easily pulled down.

[estradling]

What about the Mages and the Clerics turning on each other... Let the two powerhouses destroy and weaken each other... Divided within is how most empires are brought low

[Sergeantbrother]

With generations of over exposure, the non-magical peasantry start to develope an immunity to magic.

[Green Bean]

Three words: Giant Tarrasque Swarm.

[Ramza00]

Requires a high level caster or psion. Anyone with that kind of talent will be in the ruling class or will be dead.
I am thinking 1 wizard who is currently in the ruling class, but isn't in the "top echelons of society" and he wants to be there. He wants to rule. He knows he is nowhere near as powerful as the top guy, thus he doesn't try to overpower the top guy. Instead he works on chaos. Hoping to create enough destabilization, and dead upper power wizards, that he may actually have a chance.

He traps a powerful wizard with some spell like "trap the soul" or something similar. He then waits a day for Mindblank to wear off. He then dominates the wizard, and then program amnesia him. He then rewrites the memories, telling the wizard to forget the trapping part, and convince him to create a civil war (by recruiting like minded wizards, and creating an idea of an "enemy" inside the government.) He then releases the wizard who then starts a guerrilla war against the main society. He repeats the process with a couple other powerful wizards, until there are several "cults" who are doing guerilla war.

The memories he implanted are a strategy. He doesn't want the wizards to destroy things such as cities, instead targeting other wizards by assination and then disappearing.

Eventually a civil war/pure chaos breaks loose. And the tricksty wizard is happy. His plan may actually work. Eventually though the war gets out of hand he dies, as well as the vast majority of high level characters/leaders of the empire/society.
------------------------------------
I then have a plan on how to regress part of the civilization/magic of society back a few notches (but not all of it, nor will society will be destroyed completely instead just a dark age), but I am saving that info for later, for its still in the planning stages. Once I am done, I will post it on the boards, ask peoples opinions of it, and how they would recommend modifying it :smallwink:

[Stephen_E]

Since you specified the Clerics & Mages taking over I'm assuming we're not talkin all friendly loveydove here.

The new rulers, having usurped the previous Govt aren't going to want to be usurped in turn. Therefore they'll want to restrict the availability of magic (also to be on top you have to have people below you). Since comparitive position is likely to depend on comparative powers, the mages will start hiding the spells they learn from each other, while the Clerics will likely get into beuracratic infighting. Overtime the Mage/Aprentice selection will tend to devolve into family lines, which inevitably causes a decline in quality. The Clerical beuracracy will sooner or later despve in a civil war based on heresy/doctrine differences and the mages will probably have degenerated in to a bunch of insular wizards with deterioating spell lists and deterioating stats as the secrecy, nepotism, and fast-track apprentice promotion system (assassinate your teacher) slowly destroy them. They'll also lose touch with commoners. The commoners may also be leaving for other lands, or the wilds if there aren't other lands. Which Cleric/Mage is going to leave his cushy posistion to go out and conquer new lands.

High Wisdom/Intelligance isn't going to stop this happening, since DnD divorces Wisdom/Intell from human nature. Unlike Oots where Belkar became a nicer person when his Wis was boosted, in DnD been wise or Intelligent doesn't stop you from selfdefeating evil, pettiness, arrogance or any of the other flaws that'll bring about the situation I mention.

The more "good" the society, the less likely they are to occur, but the less likely the Mages/Clerics will "take over".

Stephen

[Fax Celestis]

Civil war.

[Sardia]

Since you specified the Clerics & Mages taking over I'm assuming we're not talkin all friendly loveydove here.
The more "good" the society, the less likely they are to occur, but the less likely the Mages/Clerics will "take over".

Stephen

I'm positing lawful neutral-- they like to keep order...and that may have been how they got into power in the first place: they may not be saints, but they aren't devils, and they make sure everything works in a fairly predictable fashion, all the bills get paid, if someone steals your cow there's a penalty, etc.
It may not have been lovey-dovey, but it probably wasn't buckets of blood and heretics on the rack, either.

[Sardia]

Civil war.

But assuming something less than total destruction of the vast majority of high-level wizards, the victors (survivors?) just have a slightly devastated kingdom to rule in the same manner.

[Fax Celestis]

But assuming something less than total destruction of the vast majority of high-level wizards, the victors (survivors?) just have a slightly devastated kingdom to rule in the same manner.

I dunno. Something causes a civil war, I'd outlaw it afterwards.

[Ramza00]

But assuming something less than total destruction of the vast majority of high-level wizards, the victors (survivors?) just have a slightly devastated kingdom to rule in the same manner.

Civil war is designed to destroy most of the high level casters/adventurers. Now you need something else (but very different than a civil war) to wipe away the rest of the population :smallwink:

Think people think, without a lot of high level magic, what kills people/destabilizes society?

[Fax Celestis]

Civil war is designed to destroy most of the high level casters/adventurers. Now you need something else (but very different than a civil war) to wipe away the rest of the population :smallwink:

Think people think, without a lot of high level magic, what kills people/destabilizes society?

Plague, perhaps?

[Jack_Simth]

Remember. An empire ruled by wizards and clerics is even harder to bring down then a regular empire. The wizards have the intelligence and teh clerics have the wisdom. They will have thought of most everything. 30-40 Int and 30-40 Wis wizards/clerics tends to mean that they are very hard to defeat if played properly.
If played paranoid, yes. But at the same time, some amount of trust is necessary to the function of any organization. When defeat is spelled by the death/incapacitation of the mage, then yes, a suficiently paranoid mage is neigh-impossible to defeat. When defeat is spelled by the destruction of a particular orginization, truely paranoid mages are practically self-defeating (by definition, they don't trust anymore).


The only people that stand half a chance are those with similar mental ability and chances are that anyone who rises to that level will be offered a position of power and made part of the ruling elite.
That only applies when everyone involved is farsighted and selfless enough to be able to simply hand over a big chunk of their own personal power. This also has to apply to the newcomer. The newcomer has to be willing to accept a subservient position. This will not always be the case. What do you do with the newcomer that doesn't want to kill you, will not join you, and simply starts setting up shop himself in a similar manner, incidentally competing with you?

I mean, without turning evil, that is.

Edit:
As to the OP, an internal power struggle is often the death of civilizations in general. Somone wants a little more power than they are given, and nobody else is willing to part with it. Sure, nobody intends to lose the prize in the struggle.... but it happens anyway as it gets carved into pieces; sombody assasinates Ceasar when he hasn't appointed an heir (or the heir gets assasinated, too), and six people claim the throne....

Or the lack of some critical component - XP, say; costs a lot to Permanency all those Teleportation circles, and they do get destroyed every now and again. This could even be done in such a way as to go unnoticed for a very long time - no level-appropriet challenges, no XP. No XP, no crafting, no permanencying, and no replacement Clerics or Wizards when one happens to die of old age. Given enough time, there's nobody who can maintain the infrastructure anymore, nobody that can lay the smack down on someone who gets uppity, et cetera. A slow decline as the old rulers simply die out of old age.

Bizzare house-ruled stuff, of course; perhaps a magic-eating disease. Harmless to people without magic, but they do act as carriers (there's some magic around for it to feed on). Sudden death to a high level mage, though. Also infects magical items and spells; causes effects similar to an AMF, except that instead of just suppressing spells and such, it actually eats them (effectively dispelling them, or disjoining, given enough time). Disease conquers the world, and then with nothing left to feed on, dies out ... leaving pockets every here and there where things were buried, but nobody knew about them who could come back to retreive them after the plauge was gone.

Outside influence, as always; two such could clash, and damage each other to the point where they can't maintain themselves. Effects comperable to an internal power struggle.

Magical disasters, of course.

[Ramza00]

Plague, perhaps?

Bingo :smallwink: And make the plague something very horrendous that destroy's memories (attacks the brain) thus even if the people are raise dead they won't remember a lot of their lives (and thus lose class levels/knowledge/spellcasting). Thus the only way to fully return someone back to normal after they die of plague is true resurrection and miracle/wish (to return the memories). The XP cost and the lack of high level casters means this can only be done for a few people, and thus society retracts to the dark age.

[Green Bean]

Bingo :smallwink: And make the plague something very horrendous that destroy's memories (attacks the brain) thus even if the people are raise dead they won't remember a lot of their lives (and thus lose class levels/knowledge/spellcasting). Thus the only way to fully return someone back to normal after they die of plague is true resurrection and miracle/wish (to return the memories). The XP cost and the lack of high level casters means this can only be done for a few people, and thus society retracts to the dark age.

Even better, the fact that the plague attacks the mind means that you can use the 'crazed wizard gone berserk' angle with a formerly high level character with a lower level party ("he lost his powers with the plague")

[Ramza00]

Even better, the fact that the plague attacks the mind means that you can use the 'crazed wizard gone berserk' angle with a formerly high level character with a lower level party ("he lost his powers with the plague")

Some suffers of the plague the really bad cases, literally go insane. Destroying things with their magic/martial skills. Some become socipaths and do things not caring about the consequences. Some cry while reading poetry. Some become horny as hell, they must unleash their sexual desire they must quench it. Some now feel pleasure when they should feel pain. Some hallucinate. Some write prophecies...(I can go on)

While some just lose their memories, and thus are depower (like you mention.)

Now this is all backwritting the DM is doing for the campaign, now the choice is do you play during this chaos. During the dark ages that follow. Or during the renaissance resurgence after the plague (Decades, Hundreds, or a Millenuia after the events of the plague depends on how bad the DM wants to make the plague).

[Sardia]

Now this is all backwritting the DM is doing for the campaign, now the choice is do you play during this chaos. During the dark ages that follow. Or during the renaissance resurgence after the plague (Decades, Hundreds, or a Millenuia after the events of the plague depends on how bad the DM wants to make the plague).

Assuming (and it is an assumption) that everyone doesn't go berserk at once, what prevents a gang of sane wizards and clerics from immobilizing/neutralizing the afflicted one by one and casting "Heal" on them?

[Saph]

There's no way for your society NOT to collapse.

Just think about it for a minute.

Take 5 average D&D players. Give each of them an epic-level spellcaster. Let them try to design a system of government. Let them try and agree on what the laws should be, what should be allowed, what the status of religion is, etc. Now give those PCs a good few years to keep going, and let the disagreements, arguments, and causes for conflict build up.

Now multiply those PCs' numbers by the actual number of high level wizards / clerics. How many are there - 50? 500? 5000? Every one of those is of epic power, with his own views on how society should run and probably an ego to match.

Now imagine what happens when an argument breaks out.

Your society is SCREWED. Imagine what an political debate would look like if everyone had hand-held nuclear weapons and could summon demons to eat anyone they disagreed with. After the dust settles, you'll be lucky if there are even enough people left to repopulate.

Invasions? Don't even bother. Civil wars are much more likely and much worse.

- Saph

[Winterking]

Rot from within is most likely. Even the LN leaders will have their own ideas on what "Lawful Neutral" means, and the whole LN group won't take kindly to alternate ideas from the True Neutral, NE, CN, CG, LG, CE, etc, crowd. At some point somebody will start locking up or otherwise removing the people they disagree with simply because they disagree, a clear evil act. Then they are tempted to commit more evil acts, like 'disappearing' people of their own alignment with whom they disagree, or people who might otherwise challenge their power. Others are going to start noticing this, and either do the same thing themselves, or fight against the previous. Meanwhile, a careful conspiracy of rogues (and after all, who does conspiracy better than a rogue?) will insert itself into positions within sneak attack range of many leaders. Society crumbles. War breaks out. Fighters and Rangers and Rogues get increasingly large shares of power, due to their advantage vs 'casters in the lower levels (wizards aren't unstoppably mighty until well past level 10)

[MeklorIlavator]

There's no way for your society NOT to collapse.

Just think about it for a minute.

Take 5 average D&D players. Give each of them an epic-level spellcaster. Let them try to design a system of government. Let them try and agree on what the laws should be, what should be allowed, what the status of religion is, etc. Now give those PCs a good few years to keep going, and let the disagreements, arguments, and causes for conflict build up.

Now multiply those PCs' numbers by the actual number of high level wizards / clerics. How many are there - 50? 500? 5000? Every one of those is of epic power, with his own views on how society should run and probably an ego to match.

Now imagine what happens when an argument breaks out.

Your society is SCREWED. Imagine what an political debate would look like if everyone had hand-held nuclear weapons and could summon demons to eat anyone they disagreed with. After the dust settles, you'll be lucky if there are even enough people left to repopulate.

Invasions? Don't even bother. Civil wars are much more likely and much worse.

- Saph

Actually, we were pretty close to that type of situation during the cold war(well, no demons, but plenty of nukes), and the realization that if someone tried anything so blatant the world would end kept people mostly in check.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Power corrupts.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Absolute magical power corrupts explosively.

Eventually, some jackass is going to have the hubris to try a coup d'etat and take over the government. Without a lot of luck, the resulting battle between high-level spellcasters will escalate into a war between the government and the rebels, which with high-level spellcasters could wipe out entire countries, and remove most of the ruling class, along with its infrastructure. Collapse.

Admittedly, that's a worst-case scenario, but it's possible.

EDIT: sort of Saph's idea. Like Melkor said, this could be avoided if a doctrine of Mutual Assured Destruction develops, or in a few other ways. It's still possible.

[Saph]

Actually, we were pretty close to that type of situation during the cold war(well, no demons, but plenty of nukes), and the realization that if someone tried anything so blatant the world would end kept people mostly in check.

Yes, but then only two countries had nukes. Big countries, with big, numerous governments.

Imagine what it would be like if EVERYONE had nukes. Not every country, everybody. And they're hand-held nukes. That you can replace every day, just by resting for eight hours.

How long do you think your country would last - hours? Minutes? :P

- Saph

[Krellen]

Two ideas, very different in flavour:

Inquisition

After a Century of Empire, the Church of the Lord God has grown powerful, controlling nearly every aspect of private life. The rituals of the Lord God command the calendar; his Prayers mark the passage of the day; his Sacrifices dictate the economy. The Lord God rules over all - except the Wizards.
Long allies to the Church of the Lord God, the Wizards have always held their power as their own. Though the goals of the Church and the Wizards have oft coincided, no longer is mere alliance enough. The Wizards live locked away in their Towers, surrounded by their Wards and their Magic. Wizards ignore the Calendar; Wizards forgoe the Prayers; Wizards refuse to make Sacrifice. The Wizards see themselves above the Lord God, enforcers of an echeleon greater than his Clerics that must acquiesque to his will. This is unacceptable to the Church.
The Inquisition is born. It shall purge the Wizards of their heresy and claim their power for the Church. Investigations of loyalty begin; executions are carried out. All seems in order; the Wizards begin to heel. But then the Inquisition finds the Archmage guilty of heresy. His execution is to be the last. The Wizards strike back.
Cathedrals are blasted to cinders; Towers reduced the rubble. Open fighting breaks out between the Church and the Wizards, and when it is through, only rubble remains. Centuries of magical knowledge are lost, and the people turn away from the Lord God whose servants brought such destruction. Bereft of their magical and spiritual heritages, the people must rebuild without magic, until new tradition can be born.

Faith
For millennia the Dual Gods ruled the Empire, their will carried out by the Priests and Magi that served them. Barbarian faiths and pantheons were excised, and none knew the worship of any but the Two.
The late in the Third Millennium, a heresy began to spread. The Empire wasn't bad, it said, but the rulers had grown complacent, no longer caring for the people or the land. The Liberator would come and free the people from the yolk of the Two.
The Dual God's Church tried to surpress this heresy, but it ever spread. For every cell wiped out, two more seemed to appear. Over the course of several generations, belief in the Liberator grew among the people of the Empire, and there seemed to be nothing the Dualists could do to stem it.
On the Day of Liberation, the Liberator was made form. A great angel appeared above the Cathedral in the Capital, declaring the despotic rule of the Two ended. All at once, the arcane gifts and divine sparks imparted upon the rulers by the Dual Gods were stamped out, vanishing forever. Cast down, as well, were the Two, made flesh and forced to live among their people. With their powers stripped, the Priests and Magi of the Two soon fell from power, leaving a shattered Empire to rebuild.
After his Ascension, faith in the Liberator spread for a time, but in time memory of the Two faded and with it need for the Liberator's message. Within five generations, the names of the Dual Gods were forgotten, and three more saw a cessation of belief in the Liberator, as none could remember whom he had liberated them from. As faith in the Gods vanished, so too did their powers, both arcane and divine. And so the Empire vanished into the mists of time, along with belief in their ancient and miraculous powers.

Of course, specifics can vary, but you should get the gist of it.

[MeklorIlavator]

Yes, but then only two countries had nukes. Big countries, with big, numerous governments.

Imagine what it would be like if EVERYONE had nukes. Not every country, everybody. And they're hand-held nukes. That you can replace every day, just by resting for eight hours.

How long do you think your country would last - hours? Minutes? :P

- Saph
true, but other casters could counter each other. Still, it would require alot of luck for the country to survive passing the reigns of power. I would see that as tied with your suggestion as means for the end to come about. The result would be the same, though.

[Accolon]

No matter what alignment, human ambition always gets in the way. I like the idea of Cleric or high ranking wizard who, in seeking "to better" the world at large gets duped by a fiend, and then gradually sets in motion the downfall of his own society. Pit Fiends, Balors, Mariliths: they're always looking for societies to corrupt and to watch human cause their own downfall.

[Fax Celestis]

Assuming (and it is an assumption) that everyone doesn't go berserk at once, what prevents a gang of sane wizards and clerics from immobilizing/neutralizing the afflicted one by one and casting "Heal" on them?

Because it's a disease that Heal (or similar magics) won't cure.

[Stephen_E]

Aside from the civil was scenario, which I think we've cover well as to why a LN set of rulers is no protection against it, there is simple decay.

The Original Wise and Powerful rulers made many powerful artifacts, but becoming so high level takes much hard work (and in DnD challenges, which may no longer exist) but still the Clerics and Wizards were fairly powerful, if not the pursuiant casters of old, and they had much magical artifacts. And low, even more generations passed, the people were placid under their rulers, who, while not very powerful of themselves, still had artifacts of power, even if some had been lost or were no longer properly understood. But all was peaceful and everyone knew their place, UNTIL - the rift opened and the invaders came.........., - The climate shifted, - the volcanoes erupted, - insert disaster/disruption of choice.

Squilch said society of low level nubs with no inititive and flexability.

Personally I don't pick the society surviving the civil war probabilities, but if they do it's probably because the power levels in subsequent generation started dropping fast, which makes sense in a DnD world, since without big nasties to fight you are going to get the XP to gain high levels.

Stephen

[Emperor Tippy]

Who says the ruling group eliminates all challenges. Big wilderness preserves filled with monsters and baddies to fight.

Or you just use SC to call an inevitable and order it to attack the guy who you want to get XP. If he kills it then he gets XP (summoned monsters don't grant it but called monsters do) and if hes about to die you order it to stop.

But Civil war is the most likely reason for the empire to fall. Or a conflict between the wizards and the clerics.

[Piccamo]

They wouldn't rule then.

Level 17+ casters can rule world wide empires. Level 10-12 ones can't. They are to easily pulled down.

The idea is Wizards and Clerics. It would only take a handful of level 17+ casters to rule the world or lots of lower level ones. For instance a cabal of 200 wizards and 200 clerics manage things and be regional governors who meet on a regular basis to discuss policy. They don't have to be level 17+, they can still muster armies.

The topic does not necessarily mean the casters do everything themselves, it merely suggests they are the ones in power. These can be 2 completely separate things.

[Kantolin]

I really do think it'd involve something akin to the cold war. Basically, nobody would want to start anything because the moment you did, whaboom.

It's otherwise the same as if anyone else ruled the world. I mean, it's typically the case that the people in control of a world-spanning empire have the most overall power in said empire. The level of power is highly irrelevant; stopping a country that is situatedly dominant over a planet is very difficult.

"Oh man, I don't want to cross Emperor Leader because Emperor Leader has a terrifying army"
"Oh man, I don't want to cross Emperor Leader because Emperor Leader has secret police"
"Oh man, I don't want to cross Emperor Leader because he himself is a wizard"

...and actually, that last one seems overall less scary than the others. I am assuming that they'd spend more time having general defenses than having no defenses than the military.

This, of course, assumes that there are significantly less people in charge than people being oppressed, which is typically the case.

Edit: And this:


The topic does not necessarily mean the casters do everything themselves, it merely suggests they are the ones in power. These can be 2 completely separate things.

Like... yeah. Did you mean 'there are like 9 people in total control over the world'? As that, or a fewer number, will result in issues if there isn't delegation.

[Dratsabre Tsabala]

*Perhaps it could be just the opposite of a civil war: Perhaps the magocracy's reach becomes so great, and it's workings so harmonious, that it pulls an Icarus-- some extraplanar power or invasion force, most likely a God(s) or the Inevitables, comes in to prevent mortal society from reaching heights and making discoveries not meant for them, or simply to "keep the balance" in the universe.

*Perhaps an emergent presence could cause such chaos and strife as to end the golden age of society, leaving it yet another geological layer of high-magic ruins for future adventurers to puzzle through. A good cause of this could be an invasion attempt by your favorite subterranean race (Drow for twinks and FR nuts. My personal choice would be the Formians.) Alternately, one of the elder races, e.g. Dragons, could begin to regard the society of the "lesser races" as a threat, and... you get the picture.

*Devils or demons could corrupt the hierarchy of the state over time, either in an attempt to take the reigns of the nation or simply to sow discord in the world of man. An alternate source of corruption would be contact with the Far Realm, though I can't remember if they dropped pseudonaturals and their ilk into the 3.5 MM, so I can't swear that the Far Realm meets the criteria of being core material.

*Unnatural corruption or civil war amongst the Gods themselves could have serious implications for a world that runs on both magic and order, and would cause some interesting conundrums for the clerics of the ruling order. Given sufficient reason, the Gods may even go so far as to abandon your world.


... That's about all I've got right now. If you couldn't tell, if given a choice, I'm heavily biased towards any scenario which brings about a worldwide semi-apocalypse :smallbiggrin:

[Variable Arcana]

You guys have missed a big one.

The world-spanning empire is headed by wizards and the LN clerics of ONE of the many gods of any D&D multiverse.

What exactly do you think the LG, NG, CG, CN, CE, NE, LE, and TN gods are going to think about this?

Any cause that has Asmodeus, Lolth, and Pelor all on board is going to be nigh unstoppable.

[Jack_Simth]

Who says the ruling group eliminates all challenges. Big wilderness preserves filled with monsters and baddies to fight.

Or you just use SC to call an inevitable and order it to attack the guy who you want to get XP. If he kills it then he gets XP (summoned monsters don't grant it but called monsters do) and if hes about to die you order it to stop.

Either requires the ruling elete to have a reasonable amount of knoweledge of the XP mechanic. Which is NOT a given.

If you're wanting the empire to fall, this is one way to go.


But Civil war is the most likely reason for the empire to fall. Or a conflict between the wizards and the clerics.
Historically one of the more common types, yes.

[Piccamo]

Another idea is that the world had a great leader who brought in the golden age of this empire. Unfortunately he died by assassination from another mage, but no one knows who. Now all the would-be leaders are squabbling and the only question is: Who thinks he could lead the empire better than the last emperor?

[Orzel]

Chances are, no one would get over level 15. Once someonce spots a guy with 8th level spells, the 13th level casters would gang up on them. There would be no porgress because the strongest guy would always be killed by the masss amounts of slightly weaker guys. Eventually someone would get sick of this. Factions are created... civil war. Everyone dies.

[Mewtarthio]

Chances are, no one would get over level 15. Once someonce spots a guy with 8th level spells, the 13th level casters would gang up on them.

Yes... gang up on the powerful guy rather than learn from him. If Somalia developed an all-powerful superweapon, do you think the US, the EU, and China would all nuke it to a glowing crater lest the knowledge escape, or do you think they'd all be begging for Somalian engineers?

[Orzel]

Yes... gang up on the powerful guy rather than learn from him. If Somalia developed an all-powerful superweapon, do you think the US, the EU, and China would all nuke it to a glowing crater lest the knowledge escape, or do you think they'd all be begging for Somalian engineers?

It's the people who wont get somalian engineer who nuke it into a crater.

If you knew a guy was 1 day away from learning Timestop and he wanted to/ could easily rule, wouldn't you try to stop him or join his side. Eventually someone would come along who has no chance of being Guy 1's friend and poisons him.

Repeat 'til everyone is dead.

[Krellen]

How about an idea that hasn't been brought up yet?

Exodus.

There was an empire. The Wizards and Clerics worked in harmony, making life peaceful and bountiful for their people. After many years (centuries?) of this, there were simply no more wrongs to right. So the Wizards and Clerics just... left. They took their magics and moved on to other planes, to right the wrongs therein. But when they left, they forgot to leave behind instruction manuals, so it wouldn't take long for everything to start falling apart.

[Orzel]

There's also roaches.
They are immune to everything 'cept squishing and poison.

[Dervag]

Assuming (and it is an assumption) that everyone doesn't go berserk at once, what prevents a gang of sane wizards and clerics from immobilizing/neutralizing the afflicted one by one and casting "Heal" on them?The fact that they'll probably catch the disease too.


Who says the ruling group eliminates all challenges. Big wilderness preserves filled with monsters and baddies to fight.Sooner or later, all the ancient ruins are explored. Sooner or later, one or more of the great wizard/priests will decide to level the Forest of Monsters once and for all, so as to finally put an end to the Monsters' attacks on the surrounding settlements.

Unless you rule that your magocrats actually know about the experience system, they have no reason not to try to destroy dangerous monsters rather than keep them around as a source of XP.


Or you just use SC to call an inevitable and order it to attack the guy who you want to get XP. If he kills it then he gets XP (summoned monsters don't grant it but called monsters do) and if hes about to die you order it to stop.That, again, implies knowing about the experience system. It would work, but it's a metagaming solution.


But Civil war is the most likely reason for the empire to fall. Or a conflict between the wizards and the clerics.This is true.

However, I suspect that the weakening of the magocracy as the old wizards who had to face the big challenges back in their day would play a part in explaining why there was nothing left of the powerful magic-uses after the war.

[Titanium Dragon]

Well, obviously the empire takes over the entire world and eliminates all major issues. Then all the original adventurers and founders get old and eventually die, and no one has any experience points except the thieves, thugs, and others who were not really up to the most up and up activities. Because all the wizards are now first level wizards, and all the truly useful ones are dead, all the thugs and thieves, the only people with levels, take over, and the empire falls apart.

Hey, no one said D&D was logical!

Another possibility is that over time, because wizards make more and more magical items, they become completely ubiquitious. Eventually enough warriors have antimagic magic items to overthrow the empire of mages who’ve kept them as second class citizens but supplied them with antimagic weapons and armor to protect them from their enemies. They all kill the magic users with their antimagic weapons and ban the use of magic. Over time their empire falls apart and you end up with a modern world.

[Ominous]

I got a small list of three cliche ways of "How to Destroy an Advanced Magical Empire".

The Sephiroth Method
The magical society decides to create the ultimate war machine or soldier. They make one super-powerful construct/soldier or a whole army of better than average soldiers/constructs. The war machines/soldiers decide that they are inherently superior and destroy the civilization.

The Mammon Machine Method
The magical society builds some uber artifact to tap into a recently discovered power source to help make spell casting easier (increase the number of spells per day and increase the limits and number of magic items). The machine backfires and destroys the civilization.

The Wheel of Time Method
Something pollutes the source of magic, causing arcane casters to acquire taint and become evil. I sometimes mix this in with the Mammon Machine Method, but instead of it backfiring, the machine works. However the power source they tapped into, is the essence of evil or the negative energy plane. They turn on the artifact and the arcane casters start to become evil as they cast spells. This is probably my favorite as I get to mix in the rules for taint and PC arcane casters have to be careful with casting their spells. Plus, as the empire's wizards become evil, political intrigue between cabals, wizard colleges, cults, and religions (trying to stop the wizards) becomes rampant.

[Nerd-o-rama]

While we're mentioning Console RPG plots...

The World of Balance Ruin Method:

One of the higher ranking members of your Magocrats just goes nuts. He intentionally fouls up some Super-Ritual of Power undertaken by the rest of the government, resulting in their deaths and the destruction of most of the world. He then sets himself up as some kind of madman God of Magic over the ruins of the world, and randomly smites towns with a laser if they get uppity. It's somewhat easier to do if the government consists of one all-powerful Emperor and his traitorous crazy sidekick, of course, but it could work on a somewhat larger scale.

Alternatively, the super-powerful casters get in a vaguely described war with magical beings from a different Plane, and are wiped out almost to a man before that plane is sealed off, only to be reopened a thousand years later by the next guy who wants to found a magical empire and plans to use the now peaceful extraplanar beings as a power source.

The Silvite Method:

One segment of the government just decides to straight-up wipe out civilization with a crapload of meteors. This is basically a possible endgame of a Civil War scenario, as the original motivation for this was to permanently end a very destructive war. It could be done by some sort of crazy nihilist cult as well.

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

My way of doing it would be to put this civilization on a dying world. Which would mean that the essence of magic is dissappearing from the world. Due to this, over time, higher level spells get lost from disuse, and can only be relearned from lost tomes. As the world comes closer and closer to death, more of magic is lost. There may even be pockets of space that magic no longer exists in (Ex: if a caster enters one of those areas, any spell they try to cast won't work, along with all other magic items).

[Indon]

I'd like to toss in something I realized on the topic while reading the thread:

Administration takes up time that would otherwise be used to study/pray. Ergo, Wizards and Clerics who are _not_ a part of the power structure would reasonably advance much faster than those who are a part of the power structure.

[anphorus]

I got a small list of three cliche ways of "How to Destroy an Advanced Magical Empire".
The Mammon Machine Method
The magical society builds some uber artifact to tap into a recently discovered power source to help make spell casting easier (increase the number of spells per day and increase the limits and number of magic items). The machine backfires and destroys the civilization.

The Wheel of Time Method
Something pollutes the source of magic, causing arcane casters to acquire taint and become evil. I sometimes mix this in with the Mammon Machine Method, but instead of it backfiring, the machine works. However the power source they tapped into, is the essence of evil or the negative energy plane. They turn on the artifact and the arcane casters start to become evil as they cast spells. This is probably my favorite as I get to mix in the rules for taint and PC arcane casters have to be careful with casting their spells. Plus, as the empire's wizards become evil, political intrigue between cabals, wizard colleges, cults, and religions (trying to stop the wizards) becomes rampant.

Damn you for stealing what I was going to say. "Mammon Machine" was the first to pop into my head being the worlds biggest CT fan.

Anywho, continuing with the games console ones.

The Exdeath Scenario.

An incredibly powerful Polymorphed-Tree Sorcerer, from a plane which is a mirror to this one, comes to the material plane and destroys the four artifacts which allow magic to work. This also causes other disasters, such as the wind stops blowing, water becomes stagnant, all fires go out and the earth begins to rot. This Tree-Sorcerer then proceaded to send large parts of the magic empire into the nothingness between the plains, annihilating huge parts of the world. By the time the Sorcerer is stopped and imprisoned the empire has been destroyed.

The Holy Sword Legend II Scenario.

In order to open a gateway to a land of incredible magical power, and to claim the Sword which was usedto create the universe, someone unseals the eight artifacts which control the world's magic. (Wow, Square really needs to get some new ideas.) Unfortunatly, this releases 8 unstoppable God-Beasts which annihilate the empire.

[MaxKaladin]

Inquisition

After a Century of Empire, the Church of the Lord God has grown powerful, controlling nearly every aspect of private life. The rituals of the Lord God command the calendar; his Prayers mark the passage of the day; his Sacrifices dictate the economy. The Lord God rules over all - except the Wizards.
Long allies to the Church of the Lord God, the Wizards have always held their power as their own. Though the goals of the Church and the Wizards have oft coincided, no longer is mere alliance enough. The Wizards live locked away in their Towers, surrounded by their Wards and their Magic. Wizards ignore the Calendar; Wizards forgoe the Prayers; Wizards refuse to make Sacrifice. The Wizards see themselves above the Lord God, enforcers of an echeleon greater than his Clerics that must acquiesque to his will. This is unacceptable to the Church.
The Inquisition is born. It shall purge the Wizards of their heresy and claim their power for the Church. Investigations of loyalty begin; executions are carried out. All seems in order; the Wizards begin to heel. But then the Inquisition finds the Archmage guilty of heresy. His execution is to be the last. The Wizards strike back.
Cathedrals are blasted to cinders; Towers reduced the rubble. Open fighting breaks out between the Church and the Wizards, and when it is through, only rubble remains. Centuries of magical knowledge are lost, and the people turn away from the Lord God whose servants brought such destruction. Bereft of their magical and spiritual heritages, the people must rebuild without magic, until new tradition can be born.I like this one. It seems like these things always rely on various wizards doing something to destroy things because they're evil, arrogant, corrupt, greedy, jealous or something like that. In this one, they're basically holed up in their towers minding their own business until a bunch of clerics decide to make trouble. You still end up with your collapse, but at least this one starts differently.

[Fax Celestis]

"The Inquisiiiiiiiiition, let's begin. The Inquisiiiiiiiiiiition, knock out sin..."

*ahem*

Sorry, been watching a lot of Mel Brooks lately.

[Telok]

Epic level spellcasting and a bloody minded SoB.

Seed: Dispel = DC 19, contingent (take damage or fail a save when I have less then 10 HP left) = DC +25, +50 dispell check = DC +50, target to area (20' radius) = DC +10, area increase 1,000,000% = DC +40,000, Seed: Destroy = DC +29, target to area (20' radius, Fort save for 1/2) = DC +10, area increase 500% = DC +20. Limiting Factor: Destroy only when permanent magic item/spell is dispelled (ad hoc) = DC -10, Limiting Factor: Destroy is centered on the magic item/spell that is dispelled (ad hoc) = DC -10, one explosion per magic item/spell dispelled and no limit on the number of explosions (ad hoc) = DC +50,000, Mitigating Factor: Backlash 80300d6 = DC -80294.

Final DC = 30.
Gold = 270,000.
Time = 6 days.
Xp = 10,800.

If I did everything right I now have a civilization wrecking epic spell that should only go off when I'm going to die. Ideally every magic item and permanent spell within roughly half the diameter of the Earth will be dispelled (1d20+60 vs 11+caster level), and every item/spell that is dispelled will result in a 100' radius 20d6 (Fortitude half) untyped damage explosion.

The reason that your players can never replicate this sort of thing is because this spell can affect artifacts. So the gods decided that this sort of thing would never happen again. Now the very structure and essence of magic can no longer sustain or power this sort of spell.

[Jothki]

Damn you for stealing what I was going to say. "Mammon Machine" was the first to pop into my head being the worlds biggest CT fan.

Anywho, continuing with the games console ones.

The Exdeath Scenario.

An incredibly powerful Polymorphed-Tree Sorcerer, from a plane which is a mirror to this one, comes to the material plane and destroys the four artifacts which allow magic to work. This also causes other disasters, such as the wind stops blowing, water becomes stagnant, all fires go out and the earth begins to rot. This Tree-Sorcerer then proceaded to send large parts of the magic empire into the nothingness between the plains, annihilating huge parts of the world. By the time the Sorcerer is stopped and imprisoned the empire has been destroyed.

The Holy Sword Legend II Scenario.

In order to open a gateway to a land of incredible magical power, and to claim the Sword which was usedto create the universe, someone unseals the eight artifacts which control the world's magic. (Wow, Square really needs to get some new ideas.) Unfortunatly, this releases 8 unstoppable God-Beasts which annihilate the empire.

Continuing on further,

The Sin Scenario.

War breaks out between two sides with differing ideologies. Eventually one side creates a superweapon, but they are unable to control it and it ends up destroying almost everything.

[Arakune]

first: All empires fall, sooner or later.

Economical/political disaster
The height of the empire are too high for the administradors: too much corruption and impunity on the lower cast that climbed to the higher positions. Since it could be a prosperous civilization a birth explosion may happen, making more dificult to live even if the goverment helps. Etc.

The empire strikes back
An Coup d´Etat, possibily breaking the empire in various minor countries with much less power and natural (and magical) resources, leading to a massive war/civil war. Maybe the Coup change drasticaly the goverment form from a LG to a LE.

Lost of power
No one says magic are eternal. Maybe using too much, or abusing the magic, or just someone screw things too much, that the magic become more weak in this plane (or planet, it depends), that the resource of power of the goverment (the magic) are not avaliable anymore and revolts and chaos are starting to happen all aroud the empire. The autorities don't know to deal with that much chaos without depending on magic.

[Illiterate Scribe]

My way of doing it would be to put this civilization on a dying world. Which would mean that the essence of magic is dissappearing from the world. Due to this, over time, higher level spells get lost from disuse, and can only be relearned from lost tomes. As the world comes closer and closer to death, more of magic is lost. There may even be pockets of space that magic no longer exists in (Ex: if a caster enters one of those areas, any spell they try to cast won't work, along with all other magic items).

I've been thinking about doing something similar in a homebrew setting. What if magic obeyed the principle of conservation of energy/thermodynamics? What if every time a cleric used true ressurection on someone, someone somewhere else vanished into dust as their life-force was sucked out of them?

[Sahune]

You could use the Dark Sun metaplot crossed with the Dragonlance Fifth Age. A disaster (natural, manmade, peanut-powered, meh) screws with the natural magic sources. New sources have to be found, but not all are good. Some magics sap the life from plants or animals, and some are beneficial.

Magic will return slowly, but your PCs are at the forefront of finding new sources. I'm sure that won't an ego thing, not at all...

[Edo]

Is there any way you can think of for such a society to collapse, or ways to make it fall apart from invasion by another magic-heavy society?Two words: Peak Oil.

It takes five pounds of silver (25 gp) to make a pint of holy water. It takes 25 gp of onyx to create a zombie for the undead armies, or more if you're creating something more sophisticated than that. It takes diamonds to come back from the dead. These are labor-intensive, non-renewable resources, and odds are you that nobody's sitting on top of a peninsula full of 'em. When they're gone, they're gone - and so are the spells that they were material components for.

Being a DM, and working on the premise that a gp of diamond chips is worth as much as a gp of potato chips, I'd grant that (within limits) it'd probably be possible to redesign spells to use different components. Unless those components are renewable, though, you've just delayed the inevitable.

Renewables (animals, plants, people, etc) aren't much better, because they take time to grow. If a crisis arose, it's quite possible for your new spell component to be harvested to extinction in short order, putting you back at square 1. And if your new spell components are domesticated, they're both vital to the populace and deeply worthless: it takes 500 head of cattle, or 2500 tons of wheat, to finance a raise dead spell.

I'm not sure about the gp value of sapient beings, but down that road lies an Evil alignment, and we all know what happens to Evil societies in fantasy.

So there you have it. Sooner or later the Magocracy, through perfectly logical means, will burn itself out.

[axraelshelm]

i think greed when the top end of socity has everything and is unwilling to share the lower class's would end up quarelling then if the government is good then talks but if they only wanted to keep peace then shots would be fire then it's a downward spirel from there

[Luircin]

Epic level spellcasting and a bloody minded SoB.

Seed: Dispel = DC 19, contingent (take damage or fail a save when I have less then 10 HP left) = DC +25, +50 dispell check = DC +50, target to area (20' radius) = DC +10, area increase 1,000,000% = DC +40,000, Seed: Destroy = DC +29, target to area (20' radius, Fort save for 1/2) = DC +10, area increase 500% = DC +20. Limiting Factor: Destroy only when permanent magic item/spell is dispelled (ad hoc) = DC -10, Limiting Factor: Destroy is centered on the magic item/spell that is dispelled (ad hoc) = DC -10, one explosion per magic item/spell dispelled and no limit on the number of explosions (ad hoc) = DC +50,000, Mitigating Factor: Backlash 80300d6 = DC -80294.

Final DC = 30.
Gold = 270,000.
Time = 6 days.
Xp = 10,800.

If I did everything right I now have a civilization wrecking epic spell that should only go off when I'm going to die. Ideally every magic item and permanent spell within roughly half the diameter of the Earth will be dispelled (1d20+60 vs 11+caster level), and every item/spell that is dispelled will result in a 100' radius 20d6 (Fortitude half) untyped damage explosion.

The reason that your players can never replicate this sort of thing is because this spell can affect artifacts. So the gods decided that this sort of thing would never happen again. Now the very structure and essence of magic can no longer sustain or power this sort of spell.

Mind you, you'll have to be 40,000th level or so to pull it off because backlash caps at double caster level (if I remember correctly). And if you're 40,000th level, why haven't you set yourself up as an over-over-god?

[ZekeArgo]

Two words: Peak Oil.

It takes five pounds of silver (25 gp) to make a pint of holy water. It takes 25 gp of onyx to create a zombie for the undead armies, or more if you're creating something more sophisticated than that. It takes diamonds to come back from the dead. These are labor-intensive, non-renewable resources, and odds are you that nobody's sitting on top of a peninsula full of 'em. When they're gone, they're gone - and so are the spells that they were material components for.

Being a DM, and working on the premise that a gp of diamond chips is worth as much as a gp of potato chips, I'd grant that (within limits) it'd probably be possible to redesign spells to use different components. Unless those components are renewable, though, you've just delayed the inevitable.

Renewables (animals, plants, people, etc) aren't much better, because they take time to grow. If a crisis arose, it's quite possible for your new spell component to be harvested to extinction in short order, putting you back at square 1. And if your new spell components are domesticated, they're both vital to the populace and deeply worthless: it takes 500 head of cattle, or 2500 tons of wheat, to finance a raise dead spell.

I'm not sure about the gp value of sapient beings, but down that road lies an Evil alignment, and we all know what happens to Evil societies in fantasy.

So there you have it. Sooner or later the Magocracy, through perfectly logical means, will burn itself out.

Unfortunatly this breaks down with the use of Major and True creation, nevermind access to the Plane of Shadows, alternate material planes, and the elemental planes (gems in the plane of earth and what have you) along with the meta-planes and outer planes.

[Jack_Simth]

Unfortunatly this breaks down with the use of Major and True creation, nevermind access to the Plane of Shadows, alternate material planes, and the elemental planes (gems in the plane of earth and what have you) along with the meta-planes and outer planes.Major Creation is explicitly not able to produce working spell components, by way of inheritence from Minor Creation.

True Creation requires XP (and 9th level spells).

Granted, the other planes might be a scosh of a problem for a starvation setup...

Hmm... Core books don't actually describe the planes, do they? In an arbitrary cosmology, they might not be useful for harvesting the more commonly needed spell components.

Edit:
True Creation and Wish, though, are a big part of the reason I went with XP for the missing essential.

[ZekeArgo]

Hmm... Core books don't actually describe the planes, do they? In an arbitrary cosmology, they might not be useful for harvesting the more commonly needed spell components.

Check the DMG starting at page 144 but the good stuffs on 151. The planes/planar effects are briefly described

[Indon]

Unfortunatly this breaks down with the use of Major and True creation, nevermind access to the Plane of Shadows, alternate material planes, and the elemental planes (gems in the plane of earth and what have you) along with the meta-planes and outer planes.

...which in turn opens up the possibility of interplanar war, Awakening Something That Should Not Be, and an increased possibility of angering some more standard primal entity.

[NullAshton]

Wizards are too aloof and prideful to rule, much less rule it with other people. They either...

A. Let other people run it, with the wizards manipulating it from behind the scenes. Basically the wizards being the man behind the throne, the adviser, which fits in with normal D&D stuff anyway.

B. Goes to war with the other wizards, eventually annihilating most of them. They eventually realize the danger in being exposed in public like that, and take to the shadows. Goes to situation A.

C. Goes to war with each other, all of the higher level wizards capable of controlling an empire kills themselves off. The only ones surviving must take up lower positions, like possibly mayor. Fighters and other classes aren't on the same level as wizards, and tend not to self-annihilate each other.

D. Bards and other high charisma people take the place of rulers, and wizards trying to get into position(which tend to have no social skills) get rudely pushed off by the high-charisma people. Wizards can't do anything because the high-charisma people know how to best manipulate the system to get ahead of the wizards. Wizards can't retaliate either because then everyone else will be after the wizard.

[ZekeArgo]

...which in turn opens up the possibility of interplanar war, Awakening Something That Should Not Be, and an increased possibility of angering some more standard primal entity.

Very true, but these are more examples of "world destroying" problems rather than "current rulership destroying" situations. I mean sure if the Old Ones invaded the prime the mageocracy would topple, but then so would everything else.

[Shadow of the Sun]

I have two scenarios:

Industrial Revolution: Yeah, I know what you are thinking, magic trumps technology. But, unlike magic, guns and bombs can be used by anyone, and anyone skilled with their hands can build a gun or a bomb. The non-mages essentially zergling rush the magic empire and erase all knowledge of it and magic from history.

House of M: Some well meaning mage who has seen the ravages of what magic an do gathers up a bunch of like minded people and casts and Uber-wish that magic couldn't be used for thousands of years. Fast forward, and magic is back.

[Telok]

Mind you, you'll have to be 40,000th level or so to pull it off because backlash caps at double caster level (if I remember correctly). And if you're 40,000th level, why haven't you set yourself up as an over-over-god?

Drat, I must have missed that bit. My fault for posting when tired. Hmmm.... Ok, add a bit that removes the backlash cap for about DC +50 and add another 50 dice of backlash. It's not like epic spellcasting is balanced or anything so it shouldn't matter too much, and you've already got GM approval for this spell. Although since the setting is hundreds or thousands of years after the collapse you don't have to be too exact about that sort of thing.

[ray53208]

Let's assume that the wizards and clerics have gotten together and actually managed to take over their society, setting it up as a magocracy of sorts.
Is there any way you can think of for such a society to collapse, or ways to make it fall apart from invasion by another magic-heavy society?

Edit: Another potential refinement-- what if everyone involved is limited to what's in the SRD? No new tools, species, or hypotheticals.

political and religious strife, of course. in any of these forms:

the have-nots outnumber the haves and decided to have a rebellion.
the clerics dont like the mages and vice versa. civil war ensues.
assault by a massive wave of outsiders in a war of conquest.

or how about this: magic stops working. period. the end.

[Sardia]

Being a DM, and working on the premise that a gp of diamond chips is worth as much as a gp of potato chips, I'd grant that (within limits) it'd probably be possible to redesign spells to use different components. Unless those components are renewable, though, you've just delayed the inevitable.

Now how complicated is it for a wizard to design a spell or effect which compresses carbon or impure aluminum oxide really, really hard...
Perhaps a higher level version of fabricate...

[Emperor Tippy]

I have two scenarios:

Industrial Revolution: Yeah, I know what you are thinking, magic trumps technology. But, unlike magic, guns and bombs can be used by anyone, and anyone skilled with their hands can build a gun or a bomb. The non-mages essentially zergling rush the magic empire and erase all knowledge of it and magic from history.
There is 1 major problem with this. The only people with the intelligence to invent the things needed for an industrial revolution are the wizards. Tech may be usable by any person off the street but that guy can't invent the original. You need an Einstein, or DaVinci. Everyone that smart will be a caster and of the ruling class.


House of M: Some well meaning mage who has seen the ravages of what magic an do gathers up a bunch of like minded people and casts and Uber-wish that magic couldn't be used for thousands of years. Fast forward, and magic is back.

Highly unlikely but it could work


political and religious strife, of course. in any of these forms:

the have-nots outnumber the haves and decided to have a rebellion.
Their chance of success rests solely on the power level of the wizards/clerics. If the ruling class is a few thousand level 10's then the rebellion could work, but if the ruling class is 50 or so level 20+ casters then the rebellion wouldn't work and arguably could not even be contemplated.


the clerics dont like the mages and vice versa. civil war ensues.
assault by a massive wave of outsiders in a war of conquest.
These both work


or how about this: magic stops working. period. the end.
You need a reason why it stops working though. Epic magic, a god dies, all the worlds magic is used up. etc.

[Nerd-o-rama]

There is 1 major problem with this. The only people with the intelligence to invent the things needed for an industrial revolution are the wizards. Tech may be usable by any person off the street but that guy can't invent the original. You need an Einstein, or DaVinci. Everyone that smart will be a caster and of the ruling class.

Simple question: why? Not everyone with a genius IQ and an inventing streak was a member of the ruling class at any point in human history. Unless the magocratic governmnet is actively seeking out and recruiting every single person with the proper statistics to become a wizard or cleric, thousands of people with the intelligence and insight to be casters - or inventors - are going to end up in the working class with no wizard levels. Now, I'm not saying that the state can't seek out and recruit all potential wizards and clerics, but it's reasonable to think they wouldn't.

[Indon]

There is 1 major problem with this. The only people with the intelligence to invent the things needed for an industrial revolution are the wizards. Tech may be usable by any person off the street but that guy can't invent the original. You need an Einstein, or DaVinci. Everyone that smart will be a caster and of the ruling class.


You are presuming some kind of perfectly meritocratic government, a feat which no amount of Miracle spells could accomplish. Or epic spells, for that matter.

[Emperor Tippy]

Anyone who shows such ability at any point in life would most likely be pressured to join or work for the ruling class or just killed.

[Ramza00]

Somebody opening up a portal, and summoning a horde of legion devils (with the survivor prc and 3 lvls of hexblade) should pretty much destroy the magic empire.

[Leush]

In support of Tippy: Read George Orwell's 1984 (or was it just 84?) for an example of a perfectly achievable and perfectly evil and disgusting and generally horrible and icky (to the extent of making one's skin crawl) meritocratic government. It is entirely plausible that the wizards set up exams and propaganda and what not to keep control.

For the general thread: There will always be someone with an ego to big for his own head who will mess up the perfect government and cause the fall of the well planned empire. Or a natural disaster beyond the power of wish. I assumed one of the two would end the civilisation.

[Daneel the Sane]

Well, hubris is certainly the standard way of some magical powerhouse going down. Either a mistake while making an artifact, or an over-confident mage trying to handle powers too gargantuan for him to control, a plague of accidentally-summoned demons ("Whoops... got the True Name wrong...") or some genius trying to eat an energy field bigger than his head (in the manner of Evil Overlords who never read the manual). However, other possibilities come to mind...

1) The huge amounts of wizards and sorcerors all in one place cause a devastating shortage in the bat guano supply, leading to an economic disaster of godlike proportions...

2) A black dragon breathes acid on a powerful wizard's experimental "Alkaline Golem"...

3) Two wizards get in a fight about who can create the biggest volcano...

4) A plague of paper-eating locusts that are attracted by magical emanations of scrolls and spellbooks...

5) Some genius finally gets around to asking, "Wait, if a sphere of anhialation (sp?) destroys everything it touches, what happens if it goes underwater?"

6) The local Magic Item Creator's Guild goes on retributive strike...

7) The gods are all defeated by a foreign pantheon made up entirely of magic-hating barbarians.

The list goes on...

[Nerd-o-rama]

Anyone who shows such ability at any point in life would most likely be pressured to join or work for the ruling class or just killed.
And who finds all these people?

1984, as pointed out by Leush, is one of a very few workable models of a forced meritocracy like this, and in that case, the entirety of the government's resources are focused solely on keeping each citizen in his appropriate social position. There is no technological advancement (by design), no real culture (by design), no individuality except among the very highest of the government elite, and of course, there's the fact that the whole thing requires some very, very evil people to devise and run.

[kellandros]

Hmm, the Dark Sun campaign setting method?

Some well meaning researcher taps into a more effective power source- the sun. Make those spells easier to cast or something. Wizards everywhere begin to switch over, to take advantage of this.

About a couple dozen epic spells later, the sun starts looking a bit funny. A few dozen more, and things start to change- sun alters color, plants start withering as they get a color of light they weren't adapted for. Wizards start testing out spells to fix the sun, still using it as a power source and things get worse.

High level clerics decide to save the world by hunting down all these wizards destroying the world and prevent them from doing any more damage. Wizards start eyeing their rivals carefully, to preserve their access to magic. Survival of the fewest scenario ensues...