[3.5] TWF - Warblade or Swordsage?

[Extra Anchovies]

Purpose: exactly what it says in the title. I'm trying to build a two-weapon-fighting character, and want the build to be entirely or almost entirely composed of one of the Tome of Battle classes. Crusader's kind of out, because they don't have access to the Tiger Claw discipline, but I'm split between Swordsage and Warblade, mostly because of the disciplines they have access to. They both get Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind, which are the two big ones (TC has lots of TWF stuff, and DM is just good to have regardless). However.

Warblade also gets Iron Heart and White Raven. There are two things that stand out most from White Raven. The first is, of course, White Raven Tactics, because it rocks. The second is using Stance Mastery to have Wolf Pack Tactics and Press the Advantage to get two 5-foot steps for every successful attack. With 7 attacks per round (because I'd have the BAB for Greater TWF), that's... very appealing. Sure, it comes online at level 20, but it's a hell of a capstone. Especially when I use Raging Mongoose; as long as there's enough enemies, I could move up to 110 feet while making 11 attacks. Suck on that, Thousand Cuts! :smalltongue: Iron Heart gives me IHS, but more notably Dancing Blade Form; +5 feet of reach means less movement, which means more full attacks. If I Stance Mastery it with Press the Advantage, I can get in a full attack against anyone within 20 feet of me. Good synergy with Adamantine Hurricane, too.

Swordsage has Setting Sun and Shadow Hand. Between the two, I can get free movement (Shadow Jaunt), sneak attack (Assassin's Stance; more attacks means more bonus damage, so it goes well with TWF), a few ways to make opponents flat-footed (synergy with the sneak attack), and some nice AoO-based stuff (which meshes well with Robilar's Gambit/Double Hit).

Which do you guys think? Warblade's bonus feats and higher BAB help alleviate two of the main pressures on a TWF build (TWF is feat-intensive and you take attack penalties), but Swordsage might have some equally useful (or better) things.

Also, a few other questions:
1. Could I use Raging Mongoose (2 extra attacks with each weapon) immediately followed by Time Stands Still (two full attacks in one full-round action) to make 18 or 22 attacks in one round? Since Raging Mongoose is a swift action and TSS is full-round, it seems like I can, but I'm still relatively new to the maneuver system so I'm not sure if I can use more than one per round.
2. What weapons should I use? Two-handed weapon and (Superior) Unarmed Strike is what I'm leaning towards right now, but it also might be worth using two kukris/scimitars to rack up the critical hits.
3. This isn't a question. Crimson Mask is the sample encounter for the swordsage, and is illustrated using a longbow. Guess what Swordsages aren't proficient with? Martial ranged weapons. Heh.

[Ellowryn]

At question 1: You can but you would only get the two extra attacks with each weapon once for the whole maneuver, for a total of 20 attacks (8 attacks per full round action twice plus four extra attacks from raging mongoose).

Question 2: Get two kukri's and grab the aptitude weapon enchant plus anything that increases damage (flaming, bane, whatever), and then take the lightning mace and improved critical feat and then stay in Blood in the Water stance. Watch as you almost double your total attacks, as you have 30% chance to critically threaten on every attack and then gain an extra attack off of every threat while you gain massive to hit and damage from Blood in the Water so you almost guarantee a hit every swing. Watch as you pink mist everything you can possibly damage. Enjoy!

Question/statement 3: why does this surprise you? One look at the stance progression if the classes should tell you that there nowhere near enough proof reading done on the book.

[Extra Anchovies]

Question 2: Get two kukri's and grab the aptitude weapon enchant plus anything that increases damage (flaming, bane, whatever), and then take the lightning mace and improved critical feat and then stay in Blood in the Water stance. Watch as you almost double your total attacks, as you have 30% chance to critically threaten on every attack and then gain an extra attack off of every threat while you gain massive to hit and damage from Blood in the Water so you almost guarantee a hit every swing. Watch as you pink mist everything you can possibly damage. Enjoy!

OoooOOOOoooo I like that. Very nice.


Question/statement 3: why does this surprise you? One look at the stance progression if the classes should tell you that there nowhere near enough proof reading done on the book.

Hm? How so? The only weird thing I see with the stance progressions for the base classes is that Crusader should gain a fifth stance at 20th (starts with 1, then has 2 stances for 6 levels, then 3 stances for 6 levels, but then having 4 stances for 7 levels breaks the series of 6's). Swordsage's pattern is hard to spot at first but it's there: starts with 1, then has 2 stances for 3 levels, 3 stances for 4 levels, 4 stances for 5 levels, 5 stances for 6 levels, and then at 20th it learns a sixth stance. Each time a Swordsage learns a stance, the number of levels until they learn their next stance increases by one. Warblade has 1 for 3 levels, then it has 2 for 6 levels, 3 for 6 levels, and 4 for the last 5 levels. They match the text, too. I don't see anything in those patterns that's weirder than most of the other regular progressions in base classes. Unless there's something I'm missing?

[Ellowryn]

The problem is stances become available at IL 1, 3, 5, 6, and 8th (give or take depending on the actual discipline), but most of the classes do not have a stance progression to match their disciplines.

Crusader get stances at 1, 2, 8 and 14 so IL 1, 1, 4, and 7 so they miss out on either 5th or 6th level stances and never get 8th level stances without burning a feat.

Swordsage get stances at 1, 2, 5, 9, 14, and 20 so IL 1, 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9 so they actually get everything.

Warblade get stances at 1, 4, 10, and 16 so IL 1, 2, 5, and 8 so they miss out on either 3rd or 5th level stances and 6th or 8th level.

And as the errata was broken/unfinished/messed up there has never been any official fix.

[Zaq]

Look at the levels when you gain new stances, though, and look at the levels of the stances themselves. At least for the Crusader, they get a stance at level 1 (that's fine) and a stance at level 2 (also fine), but then their next stance comes at level 8. At level 8, you can get a fourth level stance, or you could if any existed. You have to get a third level stance, and it's coming three levels after you have access to third level maneuvers, which is weird. The Crusader gets their fourth and final stance at level 14, so they have access to seventh level manevuers. Again, there are no seventh level stances, so they have to pick up a sixth level stance (once again, three levels late). And then they can never take an eighth level stance, unless they multiclass to delay their progression or if they pick up Martial Stance. If they got their fourth stance at level 15, there would be no issue, but the fact remains, a Crusader 20 can't get Immortal Fortitude without burning a feat.

Swordsages also get a stance at 14th level, which is one level too early to get eighth level stances. They do get a stance at 20th, but still, that's weird.

Warblades get their second stance at level 4, which is one level too early to get third level stances. They get their third stance at level 10, which is one level too early to get sixth level stances.

It would be one thing if there were stances at every level of maneuvers, but that's not the case. If you're a single-classed ToB character, you're going to have a messed-up stance progression, just because they didn't give you stances in line with when there are stances to learn.

[Extra Anchovies]

Oh... oh ew. That's... wow. Admittedly, it's kind of a subtle error, but that should have become apparent right when they started playtesting. Dammit, Wizards!

Is there any homebrew or third-party suggestions for fixed stance progressions? Maybe letting characters swap out one stance of any level for another stance of any level they have access to whenever they hit an even class level above fourth, in the same way that they can swap out maneuvers known?

[Terazul]

Oh... oh ew. That's... wow. Admittedly, it's kind of a subtle error, but that should have become apparent right when they started playtesting. Dammit, Wizards!

Is there any homebrew or third-party suggestions for fixed stance progressions? Maybe letting characters swap out one stance of any level for another stance of any level they have access to whenever they hit an even class level above fourth, in the same way that they can swap out maneuvers known?

Or just adjusting the progressions:
Crusader 2/7/12/17 and Warblade 1/6/11/16 seem to work fine.