Erudite: Is it Viable?

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Ok so with the reading of Unique Powers per Day so at level 20 you have 11 powers a day. Is that even viable? I mean could it be played without really having to fit a nitch? So not so much the Psionic Wizard as a Psionic...Adept?

[heavyfuel]

A common interpretation is that you have 11 unique powers per day per level (although I'm not sure this is RAW). So by lv 20, you have 99 unique powers, not 11.

But yeah, if your DM says that you will have only the 11 powers, it doesn't become impossible to play, as you're still a full caster that can alter which powers are at your disposal on a daily basis, but he's pretty much obsolete when compared to straight Psion.

[HunterOfJello]

11 seems absurdly small but the Wilder only learns 11 unique powers by level 20. If you go into anarchaic initiate then you essentially have a wilder who can change up his powers known as he goes through the day.

There are a few tricks which make it easier on the erudite such as using linked power to use powers without having them count as a 'unique' power that day.

[Divide by Zero]

Weaker than a Psion, probably, but still solid Tier 2.

[Silva Stormrage]

Even if you argue that you only get 11 per day (I follow the 11 per spell level per day interpretation) you can always use arcane fusion to get around some of the restrictions. Good luck figuring out how augmentations work with that one though :smalltongue:

[Troacctid]

You might only be able to use 11 of them, but you still know a bajillion powers at a time. It's not like a Wilder where your options are strictly limited--you have loads of options. You just have to lock them in over the course of the day. It's like being a Wizard who prepares all his spells on the fly instead of in the morning.

[Nettlekid]

And if that's too little for you, remember the Soul Crystal power from Magic of Incarnum. It makes a crystal which can hold 2*ML PP and lets anyone activate the power inside, using that stored PP. Using that, you can use a lot of niche powers that you know as an Erudite while adding only Soul Crystal as one of your UPD.

[Elderand]

And if that's too little for you, remember the Soul Crystal power from Magic of Incarnum. It makes a crystal which can hold 2*ML PP and lets anyone activate the power inside, using that stored PP. Using that, you can use a lot of niche powers that you know as an Erudite while adding only Soul Crystal as one of your UPD.

And then, once you can manifest it, you can enter into a metaconcert with your own psycristal and suddenly you can every single one of your powers known

[Nettlekid]

And then, once you can manifest it, you can enter into a metaconcert with your own psycristal and suddenly you can every single one of your powers known

That is indeed another way of getting around UPD, using Metaconcert, although I don't see what the Soul Crystal has to do with it.

[Ellowryn]

Even if you argue that you only get 11 per day (I follow the 11 per spell level per day interpretation) you can always use arcane fusion to get around some of the restrictions. Good luck figuring out how augmentations work with that one though :smalltongue:

The general consensus i have seen is to use the 11 per power level per day like suggested above. You still have to pay attention to what you manifest, but you aren't having to hold back for fear of locking in what powers you can manifest for the day during the first few encounters.

[Kazyan]

I've DM'd for an Erudite without clever circumventions. Yes. Yes, it very much is viable.

[DMVerdandi]

Another thing worth noting is the use of psionic items.
Erudites can still craft, and that will expand versatility.
Also, spell to power. It's good. Use it.

Shadow conjuration is one of the spells to know. Shadow spells in general actually.

[Rubik]

A common interpretation is that you have 11 unique powers per day per level (although I'm not sure this is RAW). So by lv 20, you have 99 unique powers, not 11.Actually, that's not an "interpretation." That's what the text says, pretty much verbatim.


But yeah, if your DM says that you will have only the 11 powers, it doesn't become impossible to play, as you're still a full caster that can alter which powers are at your disposal on a daily basis, but he's pretty much obsolete when compared to straight Psion.A wilder with Linked Power and Psychic Reformation has far more powers it can manifest than an equally-leveled erudite houseruled to only have 11 UPPD max.

[Elderand]

Also, spell to power. It's good. Use it.

Spell to power erudite is too good. Don't use it without DM approval.

[heavyfuel]

Actually, that's not an "interpretation." That's what the text says, pretty much verbatim.

Yup, that's why I said I wasn't sure. I was AFB when I posted that

[Psyren]

Yes, even with the 11 it is playable - that's how much the Wilder gets, and you still have more freedom.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Well I asked because I was looking at it this way At level 20 a Wizard has 40 spells per day. Which is a lot more but some of those have to be low level spells including cantrips. But that is a blessing in disguise as the Wizard can use a Cantrip without wasting their level 9 spell slot.

If an Erudite wants to use a level 2 power at level 20 he has to burn one of his 11 powers per day.

[Nettlekid]

Well I asked because I was looking at it this way At level 20 a Wizard has 40 spells per day. Which is a lot more but some of those have to be low level spells including cantrips. But that is a blessing in disguise as the Wizard can use a Cantrip without wasting their level 9 spell slot.

If an Erudite wants to use a level 2 power at level 20 he has to burn one of his 11 powers per day.

Or stick it in a Soul Crystal.

What sets Tier 1 apart from Tier 2 is that while they have the same power level and capability, the Tier 1s are able to change their setup entirely day-to-day. They might as well be different characters with different builds for the amount of versatility their spell selections give them. Tier 2 classes are extremely powerful and can often deal with any obstacle, but they'll be the same every day. Which of those does the Erudite fall under? Because it's able to change whichever powers it can use each day, it's even MORE versatile than a Wizard who prepares their spells at the beginning of the day. Sure, it doesn't have as many powers, but if you choose them well then you're likely to use maybe 6 powers all day, and you'll still have 5 slot for backup in niche situations, even if you're using the interpretation of 11 UPD total, as opposed to 11 UPD/level. Erudite is like a Spirit Shaman comboed with a Wizard who leaves every single slot open with Uncanny Forethought.

[Daishain]

Yes it is viable, and is usually considered either a low T1 or high T2 class. the uniques per day is plenty with some forethought in most cases, just make sure at least half of the powers you use are those you don't mind repeating, and try to always save a few open spaces for late in the day. Its just resource management, like most other full spell-casters. The only difference is the timing of when you make your decision.

Note #1: you are quite vulnerable at low levels, but so is your counterpart the wizard, nothing new there

Note #2: there are ways around the UPD limit. Perhaps most notable is the power known as metaconcert. Either travel with another psionic character, and/or set it up so that your psicrystal is a manifester itself. Cast Metaconcert with them linked in. Metaconcert entity created this way has your powers known, your PP, and higher than your manifester level, but is not bound by the UPD limit. Another trick involves the feat Link Power, though that can be hard on PP if used carelessly.

Note #3: If your campaign is low on chances to gain new psionic powers, either play a standard psion instead, or snag the spell to power alternate class feature for the Erudite. (Disclaimer: STP Erudite has the potential to make even the mighty tier 1 wizard look like the sorcerer by comparison, this poster is not responsible for any thrown DMGs or lactose poisoning that may result from abusing this ACF beyond reasonable bounds)


Well I asked because I was looking at it this way At level 20 a Wizard has 40 spells per day. Which is a lot more but some of those have to be low level spells including cantrips. But that is a blessing in disguise as the Wizard can use a Cantrip without wasting their level 9 spell slot.

If an Erudite wants to use a level 2 power at level 20 he has to burn one of his 11 powers per day.
Don't forget, an Erudite can cast FAR more often than the wizard overall at any particular power level. For instance, a level 20 Erudite with 22 Int has 403 power points. (60 PP bonus due to said Int) That is enough to manifest 23 level 9 powers, or a similar number of lower level powers with various metapsionic feats attached, by comparison to the Wizard's base 4. (most L20 wizards will have more than that, but the number will still be low.)

Have a need for lower level powers? the same erudite can pop off 36 level 6 powers, again compared to the Wizard's base 4.

Go even lower, and it starts to get ridiculous, that's 134 level 2 powers

Copy the wizard by choosing 1 power for each level and casting them 4 times each? You still have about 80 PP left and 2 uniques unchosen.

The UPD limit just means you have to repeat yourself a bit more often. The only limit on how many castings you can actually manage is PP, which you have plenty of.

[Psyren]

Well I asked because I was looking at it this way At level 20 a Wizard has 40 spells per day. Which is a lot more but some of those have to be low level spells including cantrips. But that is a blessing in disguise as the Wizard can use a Cantrip without wasting their level 9 spell slot.

If an Erudite wants to use a level 2 power at level 20 he has to burn one of his 11 powers per day.

Do you need 40 different spells on a given day to be T1? I highly doubt that, and certainly you don't to be T2. Many powers (and spells for that matter) are toolboxes - just the one can solve a wide variety of problems. Example, metamorphosis.

Psionics has even further advantages in this regard - augmentation means that some powers become even more versatile than their spell equivalents. For instance, Astral Construct effectively gets you Summon Monster 1 through 9 with just one power. Psionic Charm gives you Charm Monster when you need it, and Charm Person when you can afford to save ammunition. Psionic Dominate is the same.

Don't get me wrong - the UPD sucks royally while you're levelling, and doubly so when you can barely scrape together some dough for your necessary gear, with little left over for the consumables you need to be truly versatile. Yeah things open up a lot when you get Soul Crystal, but that's 12 levels of rationing until then.

[Optimator]

I've seen an Erudite from level 1-21 in play. They're plenty viable.

[KingAtomsk]

Here's some relevant text, with underline added by myself for emphasis:
Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level

This, to me, seems to imply that the number of unique powers per day is specificly designed to be for each power level.

E.g. A 1st-level Erudite only knows 1st-level powers, and can therefore manifest 1 unique 1st-level power per day. However, a 5th-level Erudite can know powers as high as 3rd level, so could manifest 3 unique 1st-level powers, 3 unique 2nd-level powers, and 3 unique 3rd-level powers per day.

[2xMachina]

IIRC, there's also Dorjes (like scrolls). You can manifest the power in it with your own PP, and it won't be consumed.

So, get a bunch of those Powers you may sometime need, but normally not, and use them to bypass UDP when you need it.

EDIT: Hmm, can't seem to find it... Maybe I'm thinking of something else? Anyone knows?

EDIT 2: Found it. XPH, manifesting from some other power known. Psicraft vs 15+power lvl.
But more useful for Psions who have a limited power known, rather than UDP tho...

[Ansem]

BEHOLD!!!
The official Erudite table:
http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/psion/erudite.shtml
Also the one in Dragon Magazine, apparently WotC hired a drug addict to rewrite their online supplement from this. (because neither 11 nor 99 makes sense)
You're welcome.

[Yuki Akuma]

Dorjes are wands. The psionic scroll equivalent are power stones.

[malonkey1]

BEHOLD!!!
The official Erudite table:
http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/psion/erudite.shtml
Also the one in Dragon Magazine, apparently WotC hired a drug addict to rewrite their online supplement from this. (because neither 11 nor 99 makes sense)
You're welcome.

IMO, it's actually fine, if you keep in mind that the T2/T3 Wilder has 11 powers known, which they don't get to choose at will. It's less adaptable during a day compared to Psion, but more versatile day-to-day compared to basically any psionic class. Not to mention the STP Erudite.

[heavyfuel]

BEHOLD!!!
The official Erudite table:
http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/psion/erudite.shtml
Also the one in Dragon Magazine, apparently WotC hired a drug addict to rewrite their online supplement from this. (because neither 11 nor 99 makes sense)
You're welcome.

Wow! This is much better than both 11 or 99 UP/day.

I'll definitely start using this in my games. Thanks!