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Mikeavelli
2014-09-02, 12:20 AM
Hello there!

I've been going through the PHB, comparing classes, options, and being very judgmental. I'm starting out with the Melee classes, since they're easier to compare relative to each other. Here are my thoughts and analysis.

Not claiming to be the be-all end-all, especially of a brand new system, but I find it's good to be aware of these things, and promote discussion.

New Legend System:

Black Options are neutral. Nice to have, situationally good, but not going to come up a lot. In most cases, I'll skip over commenting on it entirely.
Green are good abilities / choices. They're not overpowered, but you will not regret taking them.
Purple represent excellent abilities. Many of them are broken in the sense that they're vastly superior to similar abilities of the same level (Rogue's Cunning Action), completely unrelated character concepts would benefit from taking levels in a class just for that ability (Action Surge), or there's very little reason to take any other specialty when this option exists (3rd level Bear Totem).
Red means it's a trap. It is either significantly weaker than abilities of the same level, or actively weakens you as a Party Member.




Low Levels: Bear Totem Barbarian is the best tank in the game, effectively doubling your hit points during rage. Levels 1-3 are loaded with excellent abilities.
Mid Levels: A Solid melee class during mid-game, but it's really just incremental improvements the whole way up.
High Levels: Best melee capstone in the game.

Rage: Your bread and butter. More damage in the Bounded system is powerful. Better defense is icing on the cake. There's a big vulnerability here though that if someone ever DOES overcome your defenses and stuns / disengages to keep you busy for more than a round, your rage ends.

Reckless Attack: It doesn't matter if the opponents have advantage to attack you if they're dead.

Feral Instinct: Depending on how often being surprised comes up in your games.

Relentless Rage: You're going to succeed at the first check almost automatically, probably the second one too. Compare to the Paladin, who has to specialize to get an ability which isn't quite as good.

Primal Champion: Best Melee capstone in the game. 40 more hit points, 2 more damage, 2 more to-hit, both of which are huge in Bounded accuracy.


Paths:

Berserker: Might be Red depending on how often you take long rests. Exhaustion levels 1 and 2 aren't terrible, but if you get to Exhaustion 3 you may as well not even be in the fight.

Frenzy: gives you a bonus attack / round, which most other melee classes can find a way to get without suffering from exhaustion. At worst, they're simply out of abilities, not actively reduced in effectiveness.

Mindless Rage: Barbarians will otherwise have a weak wisdom/int save, and be highly vulnerable to both of these conditions.

Intimidating Presence: Why are you using your action to frighten people when you could be using your action to murder them? Cha is also a dump stat for Barbarians. Would be better if it were based off of Strength.

Retaliation: A nice capstone, but it's really too little too late to save the Berserker.

Totem Warrior:
Bear: 3rd level ability is worth a dip just for itself. Most other Resistance abilities (Sorceror, warlock, etc.) give you resistance to a single type of damage. Bear Totem gives you resistance to everything except the relatively-uncommon psychic type.

Eagle: 3rd level is a worse version of Cunning Action, the 6th level ability is probably the best one, and the 14th level ability only lets you fly in short bursts. It's not a bad choice, it's just that the other options are so much better.

Wolf: Depends entirely on your party makeup. If one of your buddies is a melee Rogue, he's going to be tremendously happy with you. A mostly-melee party is going to make this better than Bear Totem, but if you're the solo tank, it's worthless. 6th level ability is probably going to be the most useful out of the 6th level abilities, and 14th level ability doesn't allow a save, which is nice.





Early Levels: Front-loaded with awesome abilities, the first class to get consistent 3 attacks/round. Compare/Contrast with the Berserker who has to rage and be exhausted afterwards to get a bonus attack every round; you get that for free at level 1.
Mid Levels: Evasion and Diamond Soul mean you enjoy laughing at spellcasters with their silly saves.
Late Levels: Their extra attacks don't scale up, their ki pool doesn't scale properly, and their high-level monastic tradition abilities are often worse than their low-level ones.

The monk has a lot of weird options, it's hard to gauge how effective it's going to be just based on the book. It looks like the sort of class that is going to be exactly as effective as the skill level of the player; no more, no less. It appears, once again, to be designed as a caster-killer; darting across the battlefield in order to assassinate a soft target. Unfortunately, most options lack any way to fly, see invisible, or otherwise get past unique caster defenses. This makes the utility of the Monk somewhat suspect.

Deflect missiles: no longer has a size limit. You can catch ridiculous things like thrown boulders, trebuchet bolts, and cannonballs. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ-DypRhHj8)


Ki Movement powers: are a slightly worse version of Uncanny Action, because they require expending your limited Ki pool. Being slightly worse than one of the best abilities in the game is still pretty good though.

Stunning Strike:: Maybe excellent. You can spam your whole Ki pool to deal damage and make sure someone gets stunned. No wasting Ki on misses, save scales well, and stunned is a great Debuff.

Evasion and Diamond Soul because you're a caster-hunter, so they may as well have a harder time of things against you.

Perfect Self is the worst capstone in the game.
Specializations:

Way of the Open Hand:

Open Hand Technique: are probably the best abilities in this tree. There's no size modifier at all on the Dex-or-knocked prone ability, and the bigger they are, the harder they fall. An Adult Red Dragon (CR 17, Dex Save +6) would probably fall prone to this.

Wholeness of Body: Is a worse version of Lay on Hands.

Tranquility: Lets you cast a first level spell for free, as a 11th level ability that you took a specialization for.

Quivering Palm is going to be a worse choice than 3 Stunning Fist attacks in most circumstances.

Way of the Shadow:

Shadow Arts: Are useful, but not game-breaking abilities.

Shadow Step: Because being able to be anywhere on the battlefield with a single bonus action is awesome.

Cloak of Shadows: Because you can pay 4 ki points to be invisible for a minute at level 18, or you can be invisible all the time for free at level 11.

Opportunist: Because if there's one thing the Monk needs, it's the ability to punch people in the face even more.


Way of the Four Elements: Ki Point costs are very high for what you get out of them, and the pool of spells you can select is very small. You're supposedly a melee class, so casting a lot of concentration spells is going to be problematic.

The Direct Damage Spells (Fireball, Cone of Cold, etc) are all going to be pretty worthless. Maybe grab one for crowd control if your party doesn't already have a blaster. Casting Hold Person is a a worse choice in most circumstances than Stunning Fist, and not worth 3 ki points.

Fist of unbroken Air and Water Whip let you pull off some awesome battlefield control. Especially if you like fighting around pits.

Ride the Wind and Eternal Mountain Defense are great Self-buffs. Flying is the most important movement power in D&D, so a way for a melee class to get it is awesome.





Low Levels: Lay on Hands restores enough hp to matter, spellcasting comes early, and Divine Smite provides a better damage boost than any other melee class abilities
Mid Levels: You personally aren't as awesome, but Auras give the whole party immunity to very common status effects.
High Levels: High level abilities are very good, and all three specializations give an excellent capstone. This is one class I'd encourage you to always take the full 20 levels in.

Lay on Hands: is one of the better healing abilities in the game. All others are judged against it, and found wanting.

Smite is much more powerful than previous editions, especially with the various Smite Spells that can be added on top of it. The scaling is a little weird; it starts at 2d8, gains 1d8/level, caps at 5d8 (which would be a 4th level spell) - but Paladins get up to 5th level spells.

There's no alignment restrictions to Smite, you can keep doing it as long as you have spells. This makes it one of the best extra-damage sources in the game. Compare to Fighter/BM superiority dice, or Ranger's Colossus Strike, neither of which scale up nearly as well. At 11th level, you gain extra damage all the time without even expending actions or spell slots.


Sacred Oaths:

I'll leave the RP considerations for another thread. Paladin RP threads never turn out well.

Oath of Devotion:
is your classic holy warrior of rightness Paladin.

Sacred Weapon: Gives you even more successful hits, and a magic weapon when those can be hard to come by at this level.

Turn the Unholy: Is a classic Paladin maneuver

Aura of Devotion: Is Helpful.

Purity of Spirit: Is a little redundant, but since you're a Paladin, most of the enemies you fight are going to be evil, so always forcing them to have disadvantage is a big plus.

Holy Nimbus: Is nice. There aren't enough high-level monsters out to determine whether 10 damage / round will be an actual good ability, or just icing on the delicious cake.

Oath of the Ancients:

Nature's Wrath: giving something its choice of Strength or Dex save means the target is generally going to succeed, and you'll have wasted an action. Oh, and it's already within 10 feet, so why aren't you hitting it with your sword?

Turn the Faithless: is like Turn Undead, but for Fiends and Fey.

Aura of Warding: is probably better than Oath of Devotion's Capstone. Your Auras already give you immunity to most debuffs, so most spells cast by fiends and undead against you would be damaging. This ability means you take half damage anyways, while Holy Nimbus means you just have advantage on the save.

Undying Sentinel: will save your bacon once per long rest. Which is good, because this edition of D&D is pretty bloody. I would prefer if it happened earlier than 15th level though.

Elder champion: is the capstone I use to demonstrate why a certain fighter specialization capstone is worthless. Consider going Nova like this:

Casting Destructive Smite (renamed to Destructive Wave) as a bonus action that targets have disadvantage on the save against, followed by 2 attacks you probably have advantage on (Destructive Smite makes them go prone on a failed save), using 4th level Spell slots to Divine Smite (there's no restriction against using Smite more than 1/round). That's 10d6+12d8+Weapon damage, and it makes a Fighter's 8 attack action surge look pitiful.

Oath of Vengeance:

Abjure Enemy is a better, single-target Turn Fiend/undead that also happens to work on everyone else.

Vow of Enmity is awesome. Free Advantage on every attack for what's usually the duration of combat. You can also do some combination of Paladin/Rogue and never have to worry about needing advantage for your sneak attack to work.

Relentless Avenger: means nobody gets to run away from you ever.

Soul of Vengeance: makes the amazing Vow of Enmity even better.

Avenging Angel: Amazing. Excellent Capstone, excellent Oath, excellent class. Powers++. Vhailor would be proud, if he wasn't too busy enforcing justice on every evildoer throughout the Planes.






Early Levels: Colossus Strike is the earliest consistent method of getting extra damage on your attacks.
Mid Levels: It doesn't scale well unfortunately, and the Mid-level abilities for either specialization don't match up.
Late Levels: Foe Slayer is a terrible capstone. It doesn't apply to every encounter. Compare/Contrast the Paladin's abilities, which are even better against fiends/undead/etc. But still apply to every encounter the Paladin gets into. Ranger falls short.

Favored Enemy: Is detached from combat mechanics until level 20, so that's good. It's a bit underwhelming though.

Natural Explorer: Would still balanced if it always worked, and wasn't limited to a specific type of terrain. As it is, this just forces the DM to plan around your natural terrain, or render one of your big abilities irrelevant.

Primeval Awareness: doesn't reveal the creatures location or number. AKA Any actually useful information.

Hide in Plain Sight and Vanish: Would be even better if you had some kind of sneak attack damage.

Feral Senses: Free detect invisible is basically your role in the party.

Foe Slayer: Is an Awful capstone for reasons already discussed.


Archetypes:

Hunter:

Colossus Slayer: is very strong at low levels, but it looks like it won't scale well. It would be better if it could proc more than once per turn.

Giant killer: depends on you being within 5 feet. The class is best used as an Archer. Pass.

Horde Breaker specifies that the creatures have to be within 5 feet of each other, and within range of your weapon. Great for archers.

Escape the Horde is alright; but you're going to be archering most of the time, and should have enough HP that you can just tank the occasional Opportunity Attack.

Multi-attack defense: might save your bacon if a monster decides you look tastier than the meat shield

Steel will is: Nice? I guess? Frightened is a pretty common debuff.

Volley: Stacks with Horde Breaker, and Spells like Swift Quiver, allowing you to make a positively obscene number of attacks.

Whirlwind Attack: isn't bad, but a Fighter or Barbarian makes a better melee fighter. The only reason for this class is ranged combat, so why are you in melee?

Evasion: Is evasion. We all know what this does.

Stand against the tide: is great if you're going to insist on being a melee ranger

uncanny dodge: I initially thought would be terrible, but then I realized that the way it's written, it stacks with damage resistance. If you were a Bear Totem Barbarian / Ranger, you'd only take 1/4 damage from an attack you chose to use your reaction against.


Beast Master

Ranger's Companion: will force you to use your action on yourself and have your pet stand around doing nothing, or have your pet do something while stand around doing nothing, for levels 3-5. This is my main complaint against the class. Heaven forbid you cross-class.

Exceptional Training makes this slightly more palatable by including the 'Help' Action in the list of things you can have your companion do. Free advantage is fun.

Bestial Fury: Can eventually allow you to get as many attacks as the fighter does, but they won't benefit from your class features, feats, or spells until...

Share Spells: But the number of good spells for your companion is limited. You're looking at Stoneskin and freedom of action.





Early Levels: Action Surge is one of the best abilities in the game. Action Economy reigns supreme
Mid Levels: Up until 11th level, the Fighter doesn't have any particular benefit over any other class.
Late Levels:: Two action surges, 4 attacks/Round. It's not shiny or sexy, but it gets the job done.

Action Surge is fantastic. This and a Fighting Style are good dips for literally any other class to take. Even spellcasters who have no interest in fighting. Breaking the Action Economy is that good.

Indomitable: Is okay. Other classes get better versions of 'succeed on a save you should have failed.'

Specializations:

Champion:

Improved Critical/Superior Critical: Since you're getting loads and loads of attacks, you're going to have loads of opportunities for criticals. They don't need to confirm in this edition, so that's nice.

Remarkable Athelete: Skills are nice. Depends on your group how useful they'll be.

Additional Fighting Style: Would be better, but there are a lot of mutually exclusive fighting styles.

Survivor: Compare this to the Barbarian Capstone or the Elder Guardian Paladin capstone. If you're already down below half your hp, the fight is going poorly enough that you're not going to get back that many more hp.


Battle Master:


Student of War: is nice Fluff

Know your Enemy: Depends entirely on your DM how useful it is. This reminds me of the old 'Common Sense' talent from WoD which the Storyteller would explicitly tell you whether an action you were about to take was a good idea or bad idea. Newbies would take so they had an in-game reason for the storyteller to help them out.

Relentless: It's nice they tried. Would be good if it was a refresh of one die every time you rolled initiative.

Maneuvers:
A slightly different take on bardic music. I liked this class when I first read it, but I'm becoming less and less enamoured of it as I go through the book. Most abilities are balanced by having limited uses (spells, ki pool), or only involving a limited amount of damage / unique circumstances (Colossus Strike, sneak attack). BM Maneuvers are balanced by being weak in every way. You can blow through all six superiority dice in one battle, and get only one back at the start of every battle.

Most Maneuvers are just abilities other classes get all the time with a superiority die added in for damage. If you take a lot of short rests, you'll shine very brightly. If you don't? You'll be lagging behind your fellow party members.

I can see some pretty amazing damage output with 4 Attacks + 4 attack Action Surge + bonus attacks from some other source = Dead Monster in 1 round, but the Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger can do just as well or better, and have more options to boot.


Eldritch Knight:

Spells: Spells are good. Self-buffs are worse in this game for a melee class like the fighter, because Concentration. But, you can fly, stoneskin, enlarge, all sorts of things.

War Magic: Actually better than I thought it would be. Cantrips scale in damage as you level up without taking up higher-level spell slots. This will be dubiously useful until 11th level, at which point you're giving up 2 normal attacks to be able to cast 1 cantrip.

Eldritch Strike: Would be good if this applied disadvantage to anyone's spells, not just yours. Your spells aren't powerful enough to be worth casting when you could just be hitting them with your sword.

Arcane Charge: Ideally, you're going to be using your Action Surge to kill the **** out of something. What better way to make sure you get in close to do that than teleport right up into their face?

Improved War Magic: now you can cast a spell and land one attack, but your spells aren't powerful enough to justify missing out on two (three at level 20) attacks.





Low Levels: Cunning Action is Fantastic. Most builds would find it worthwhile to do a 2-level dip into Rogue just for this. Sneak Attack does the most consistent damage out of any ability if you can get advantage often enough.
Mid Levels: Sneak Attack Scales! Nothing else in this game scales so well. Most mid-level abilities give you additional options and defense, but precious little else on the offense. If you're not sneak attacking, you're not contributing any damage to the fight. Sneak attack is good enough that it doesn't really matter though.
High Levels: Sneak Attack scaling falls behind the nova'ing ability of casters and other classes, but no-one else gets high damage so consistently. They all have to pay a price that isn't renenwed without a short or long rest. Stroke of Luck is good, but not overwhelmingly so. It is, in my mind, exactly what a balanced capstone should look like.

Sneak Attack: Excellent damage dealing source. It's a pity it only procs once/turn.
Cunning Action: I haven't gushed enough about this yet, have I?

Uncanny Dodge: Because you need to protect your precious, precious hit points.
Evasion: See above.

Blindsense: It's only 10 feet, so you probably already know about where the opponent is, and just need to be able to hit them.


Stroke of Luck: Once a short rest, when you don't feel like failing, you succeed instead. Just because you want to. That's pretty awesome.

Specialties:

Thief:

Fast hands: The utility depends largely on your group and DM. Using an Item as a bonus action would be nice if you've got a lot of potions.

Second-Story Work: Fun bonus.

Supreme Sneak: Excellent for hiding and killing stuff.

Use Magic Device: It remains to be seen how good this really is. Magic items aren't as common in this edition of D&D, but this single skill could crack the whole system right open in 3.5. My hopes are high.

Thief's Reflexes: You take two turns, which potentially means two sneak attacks at the start of every single fight. Awesome

---

Assassin: Overall I'm not as impressed with this class as I thought I would be. The 3rd level ability is very nice, but later ones are a bit lackluster. The DM has to accommodate the campaign to allow you to use your abilities. Would not play one in a Dungeon Crawl, for example.

Bonus Proficiencies: Poison is actually pretty good, and not too expensive for what you get.

Assassinate: Free sneak attacks with high initiative, and auto-crits against surprised enemies makes for happy days.

Infiltration Expertise: Depends the kind of game you're playing really

Imposter: Same deal. Depends on the kind of group how useful this will be.

Death Strike: Still doesn't deal as much damage as your sneak attack, unless this stacks with sneak attack, in which case it goes up to amazing.

Arcane Trickster:

Spells: Are the whole point of this specialization. It synergizes a bit better with thief than it does with Fighter (Eldritch Knight). Use thief skills at a range, cast invisibility, fly, supplement your thief skills, and you're not giving up so much to cast a spell as you would be as a Fighter. Just one attack, which may or may not be dealing sneak attack damage.

Mage Hand Legerdmain: This was a lot of fun with the 3.5 version of this ability. Steal wizard's spell pouches for fun and profit.

Magical Ambush: It would be better if you had more/higher level spells. As it stands, they've got disadvantage to resist spells that aren't going to do so much anyways.

Versatile Trickster: Do you want to get a sneak attack on every attack, ever? This is the ability for you! There's no save, no chance to avoid it. You just get advantage, and sweet sweet damage.

Spell Thief: Would be better if you had higher than 4th level spell slots.






Low Levels: Does not shine at low levels. Not enough spells, spells aren't powerful enough, and Bardic Music doesn't really provide more than minor buffing.
Mid Levels: entirely dependent on how good you are at optimizing, picking spells with Magical Secrets, and overall build quality.
High Levels: You're a full caster with a plethora of picks from every spell list in the game. If you're not winning, you're not trying hard enough.

Bardic Inspiration: It really feels like they included this feature because they had to. It was so iconic in previous editions that it needed to be carried forward, but they didn't really want to, and tried to avoid emphasizing it. It has the nearly unique honor of being subject to being wasted. You have to plan out in advance who gets inspired, and they have to remember they have an inspiration die to roll in the event of an emergency.

Magical Secrets: Access to the whole spell list is awesome. Becomes even more awesome as time goes on, and the system expands.

Superior Inspiration: Actually even worse than the other capstone-restoration things. The system encourages you to hand out bardic inspiration dice in advance of combat, but doesn't restore them until you're in combat. Also, Bardic music isn't even as useful as the other point dice systems like this, so it really falls flat.

Specializations:

College of Lore:

Bonus Proficiencies: Because you're the bard, and you're proficient at things.

Cutting Words: Would be amazing if it also applied to saving throws, but sadly it doesn't. Still an excellent ability though.

Additional Magical Secrets: More spells known? Awesome! We're nearly a wizard now!

Peerless Skill: You can use your own ability on yourself that you could have used on another party member at any time. I'm underwhelmed.

College of Valor:

Combat Inspiration: More Damage for your friends! Or a slightly weaker version of Cutting Words.

Extra Attack: I suppose you could combine this with Polymorph/ True Polymorph and go to town smashing stuff in an overpowered Dragon body. Or you could grab some ranger spells with Magical Secrets and start spamming arrows like a 17th level ranger while you're down at 10th. That would actually be a pretty powerful build, now that I think about it.

Battle Magic: This whole specialization has the same problems as the Arcane Trickster or the Eldritch Knight, just in reverse. You're a mostly arcane caster who can fight some good, but it doesn't really add much to the class unless you bend over backwards to optimize it. It's certainly possible to do that, but you're going to have to try very hard to be successful.

Giant2005
2014-09-02, 01:15 AM
Just a correction, the Monk Martial Arts ability and Flurry of Blows don't stack due to both being bonus actions (So only 4 attacks are possible).

Gnomes2169
2014-09-02, 09:41 AM
Another correction, rangers and paladins have spell lists, can you list their usefulness please? ... Okay, so it isn't a correction so much as it is a request for more reviews.

Also, discuss the # of Atribute Increases each class gets, and don't all monks get proficiency in every saving throw...? As well, doesn't Way of the Elements spend ki to modify their attacks, not replace them?

JamesT
2014-09-02, 09:47 AM
Looks good, and I'm looking forward to your views on the rest of the classes.

Mikeavelli
2014-09-02, 11:39 AM
- Updated the Monk entry with correct information

- I haven't gone over the spell lists in depth yet, and can't really make a fair comparison of them, which is also why I've held off on casting classes for the moment.

- Working on an updated version of the list that has color coded ability options.

- Tier list thoughts are appreciated. I realize some people have a philosophical objection to the concept of character tiers, but that doesn't mean people who do like them can't have fun with them. My current feelings are that all of the melee classes fall into the same tier as in 3.5, but I'm not entirely convinced the 3.5 tier system is still applicable. The game plays differently, is balanced differently, and I don't have a full enough grasp of a huge part of the system (magic) to accurately judge it. Currently thinking up a re-adjusted system that's calibrated specifically for 5E.

- A really common theme is the 3-Level dip. A lot of 3rd level specializations are amazingly powerful, and often (Bear Totem Barbarian) worth more than the entire rest of the specialization tree. It's to the point where a few specializations can be judged entirely on this metric. My initial thought was that cross-classing was discouraged in this edition, but now I'm leaning towards the opposite. A lot of high-level abilities are just slightly improved versions of things other classes get at lower-levels, and a lot of capstones aren't terribly powerful. Even for the capstones that are powerful, the game ends at 20th level, and you're probably not going to be spending a lot of time with that shiny new capstone. It's probably better to grab some dips and enjoy them the majority of the game than it is to shine brighter in your last few sessions.

Prophes0r
2014-09-02, 01:41 PM
...Hilariously, Deflect missiles no longer has a size limit. You can catch ridiculous things like thrown boulders, trebuchet bolts, and cannonballs...

You do realize that Deflect Missiles says

...the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your monk level..

I would suggest against trying to catch or deflect any of the 3 things you listed above...

hawklost
2014-09-02, 02:11 PM
You do realize that Deflect Missiles says


I would suggest against trying to catch or deflect any of the 3 things you listed above...

I don't know... a lvl 20 monk could deflect 26+1d10 worth of damage from a Boulder.

It does specifically say Ranged weapon attacks, which might not be a boulder, I do not know.

You have to admit, it would be awesome to see a monk deflect a large boulder and take no damage on it (possibly because the damage roll was crap). Or even cooler, since the wording does not forbid something like a Dex save first (if the item has it) dodging for half damage and deflecting the rest of the damage.

Mikeavelli
2014-09-02, 02:45 PM
Thrown rocks in the DMG sample (http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/DMDnDBasicRules_v0.1.pdf) are referred to as Ranged weapon attacks, so that's well and good.

If the giants are CR-appropriate, the thrown rocks are going to outdamage the Monks ability to defend itself. They tend to scale up in damage faster than a monks deflect arrows ability. If the monk rolls very well, and the giant rolls poorly, it can be completely deflected. It's better than nothing, and awesome when it works, but not really a shining feature of the class.

Shadow
2014-09-02, 03:31 PM
My initial thought was that cross-classing was discouraged in this edition, but now I'm leaning towards the opposite.

The multiclass rules are optional, needing DM approval.
We rotate the DM at our table every couple of months so that no one gets burned out (sometimes rotating games as well, and swapping back as needed) and I can guarantee that at least one of the people at our table will disallow multis.

andhaira
2014-09-02, 03:34 PM
@OP: You kind of missed important things about the Paladin. His spell list has many unique Paladin only spells. Most such spells can be cast as a bonus action and only have a verbal component. A paladin can smite and also use a spell smite in the same round, after making a full attack. His smites are also only used after the attack lands, not before any dice are rolled, so none are wasted. Paladin's also get a fighting style, and they can have nice synergies with some feats.

The paladin is also the only class to get heavy armor at start, and can thus take heavy armor master earliest (very powerful feat). Finally, the Paladin of Devotion's capstone ability Holy Nimbus is very powerful, auto radiant damage to all creatures for 1 minute and advantage on saves against spells from fiends and undead. That means the BBEG fighting the lvl 20 paladin can take upto 100 points of radiant damage if the fight lasts at least 10 rounds and the Paladin remains standing. Lay on Hands can cure upto 100 pts of damage, so that should help the Paladin remain standing for 10 rounds. :)

Person_Man
2014-09-02, 03:38 PM
My 2cp contribution, for whatever its worth, can be found in my Grognard's Guide (link below in signature).

Important things to remember when writing up your analysis:

You are limited to 1 Bonus Action and 1 Reaction per turn. This severely limits your ability to stack additional attacks or other benefits. Concentration is a similar limit on spells.
The usefulness of the Barbarian, Ranger, and Paladin are all highly dependent on semi-frequent Long Rests. If you don't have semi-frequent Long Rests, you're options are pretty limited to being a meat shield (ie, standing in the way of damage that other players might take).
The usefulness of Monks are similarly dependent on semi-frequent Short or Long Rests.
Bards, Clerics, Wizards, and Sorcerers, want to take Long Rests at reasonable intervals as well, but have a lot more resources to draw upon before they run out, and have the benefit of Ritual spells and Cantrips to keep them useful even when they do.
Rogues, surprisingly, are the only "all day" doesn't need to Rest at all to be useful. (Assuming that they don't run out of hit points, which everyone is subject to). Warlocks and Druids probably tied for a close second; Warlock has at-will Invocations and continuous Pacts to buttress their spells, and Druid has the open ended long duration Wildshape.

Shadow
2014-09-02, 03:44 PM
Warlocks and Druids probably tied for a close second; Warlock has at-will Invocations and continuous Pacts to buttress their spells, and Druid has the open ended long duration Wildshape.

I disagree with the part about Warlocks completely.
They are quite literally the most dependant upon short rests in the entire game. If you want to compare them to the full casters (which they are, just using a different mechanic), then short rests are absolutely required as often as possible (which isn't to say that an hour stop is possible very often).
Unless you just want to become a magical archer, and not actually be able to do any full casting like your buddy casters.

With no short rests, warlocks are extremely underpowered. With just one or two, they're about on par with other casters. With three or more they start to become OP by comparison.

Beige
2014-09-02, 08:44 PM
something to note is the fighter becomes much more competent when using the optional feats rule, due to the fact he gains 8 ability increases compared to everyone else's 4, meaning he can eaisly max out str/con and grab a couple of choice feats without having to sacrifice stats.

Battlemaster is probably the best fighter archetype - champions bonus crits are nice, but the rest of it just dosen't offer much (athlete is only gonna be useful once in a blue moon, and the bonus combat style is probably going to just translate to armour - so +1 ac - unless you decide to switch your entire play style) whereas battlemaster gets some nice manouvers, and can add things in almost any party (commanders strike in a melee party can make use of a barby/ranger/pally's higher damage per attack syenergised with the fighters storm of them for some nice numbers.

I'd argue that eldritch knight is less of a trap and more an additional out of combat utility - most of the fighters archetypes, as you pointed out, are underwhelming, and what he's going to be doing in a fight 99% of the time is the same regardless of archetype - make a metric crap-ton of attacks to one creature he dislikes the look of, possibly hit an action surge to double that. I do kinda wish that it wasn't limited to abjuration and evocation, but that's how it rolls...

I do find it amusing that a 2 level dip to fighter is still useful for almost everyone :smallbiggrin: if for different reasons now

also, fighter's get heavy armour from the ofset as well as paladins. their not as effective a tank due to worse defensive options, worse saves and no immuntiy to most debufs, but they do get shiny steel pants.

Chambers
2014-09-02, 08:53 PM
Berserker would be a great archetype if it weren't for Frenzy inflicting levels of Exhaustion. Exhaustion is horrible and if I recall correctly there's only 2 spells in the PHB that remove it (5th level, I think, and another). I'll play a Totem Barbarian every time because I don't want to require my party to be equipped with the right spells to deal with my class feature.

LordVonDerp
2014-09-02, 10:00 PM
I disagree with the part about Warlocks completely.
They are quite literally the most dependant upon short rests in the entire game. If you want to compare them to the full casters (which they are, just using a different mechanic), then short rests are absolutely required as often as possible (which isn't to say that an hour stop is possible very often).
Unless you just want to become a magical archer, and not actually be able to do any full casting like your buddy casters.

With no short rests, warlocks are extremely underpowered. With just one or two, they're about on par with other casters. With three or more they start to become OP by comparison.

Warlock w/o short rest is still on par with fighter.

Soras Teva Gee
2014-09-02, 10:11 PM
- A really common theme is the 3-Level dip. A lot of 3rd level specializations are amazingly powerful, and often (Bear Totem Barbarian) worth more than the entire rest of the specialization tree. It's to the point where a few specializations can be judged entirely on this metric. My initial thought was that cross-classing was discouraged in this edition, but now I'm leaning towards the opposite. A lot of high-level abilities are just slightly improved versions of things other classes get at lower-levels, and a lot of capstones aren't terribly powerful. Even for the capstones that are powerful, the game ends at 20th level, and you're probably not going to be spending a lot of time with that shiny new capstone. It's probably better to grab some dips and enjoy them the majority of the game than it is to shine brighter in your last few sessions.

I've had this thought too but considering how dense the 4-10 range tends to be with abilities not to mention your Extra Attacks, Score Improvements, and especially if you are looking for Feats... all those delayed can be a hefty price to pay.

Even into the late game, like for casters do you really want your 9th level spell to be your capstone and 1/4 less high level spells in the levels before that.



I'd argue that eldritch knight is less of a trap and more an additional out of combat utility - most of the fighters archetypes, as you pointed out, are underwhelming, and what he's going to be doing in a fight 99% of the time is the same regardless of archetype - make a metric crap-ton of attacks to one creature he dislikes the look of, possibly hit an action surge to double that. I do kinda wish that it wasn't limited to abjuration and evocation, but that's how it rolls...

I do find it amusing that a 2 level dip to fighter is still useful for almost everyone :smallbiggrin: if for different reasons now

I think people regarding it as a trap don't necessarily appreciate the way Concentration effects the game. Your number of buffs/debuffs, AoE, and almost everything that isn't blasting casting is 1 spell per caster. And thus how much any sort of extra casters can effect the game.

Or put more succinctly I wish EK Fighters could learn say Haste a few levels before level 14, but that's still a whole extra buff in play that wasn't before. And it comes at essentially at very little cost to being really good at killing things.

Theodoxus
2014-09-02, 10:33 PM
I do like my highpowered games... I'm going to test how detrimental allowing all races a free feat at 1st and moving the ability improvements out of class and onto character level (except for fighter bonuses at 6th and 14th) will be. Probably coupling with standard point buy - I like power, but motivation to improve characters rather than starting with a free 20 at 1st (typically happens with my players - good rolls :smallfurious:) seems more fun.

Shadow
2014-09-02, 11:31 PM
Warlock w/o short rest is still on par with fighter.

Not really. Fighters have better AC, better HP, and better damage output.
They can also wield weapons that do more than 1d8 damage. The thing that people don't understand about eldritch blast (and magic missle for an evoker, and other spells which multiple effects that fire simultaneously) is that each target only applies the ability mod once.
EB can later shoot four blasts for 1d8 each. If each blast hits a different target, thats 1d8+cha to each target. If one bolt hits single target and three bolts hit a different target, then that's 1d8+cha to one, and 3d8+cha to the other. You only add the bonus once per target.
--paraphrased via Mike Mearls ruling on the question

So while a fighter will get 1d8 to 2d6 +str on four attacks against a single target, a warlock would only get 4d8+cha against that target.
Good, but not quite on par with the fighter. When you add in action surge, either higher crit or maneuvers, or spells (more slots than a warlock gets all day I might add), the warlock is weak by comparison unless he gets those rests in.

Mikeavelli
2014-09-03, 12:09 AM
Dug deeply through spells, going to be updating my thoughts on the classes later.

For now though, I noticed a few... Odd things about spell balance:

Some spells have a material component, but don't specify the material component is consumed by the casting of the spell. Some other spells do specify the material components are consumed. Are they not consumed if it isn't specified? Did the Focus distinction get dropped between 3.5 and 5e?

Spells do indeed win again. The 6-save system makes it inevitable; since all you have to do is learn a spell or two that targets different saves, and cast them on the appropriate baddies. Dat Flexibility. No melee class is going to be able to consistently target the weakest point of every enemy they come across. Caster classes can easily do this.

- Self-only concentration spells like Flame Blade appear to be complete Garbage considering how often you'll have to make concentration checks if you're in direct combat. Why would you ever cast Flame Blade and submit yourself to Melee, where you can easily lose concentration? Call Lightning, one level later, fulfills the same combat niche(one attack every round), scales better with levels, and doesn't expose you melee attacks.

- Paladin smite tree spells are indeed awesome. They're all bonus actions to make your smite even more smighty.

- There are a few stupidly powerful buffs (Heroes feast replaces half of the Paladin's class features by itself, Holy Aura is better than any Paladin Capstone, all of which are quite powerful for melee classes), which I suppose are "balanced" by costing a lot of money. But, Melee classes don't even have the option to spend that money.

Spells that got mixed up during balancing:
- Banishment(4th) is superior to Maze(8th) in all ways except duration, and most battles are going to be over inside of a minute anyways, so the extra 20 minutes doesn't make up for the fact that a Mazed creature can make intelligence checks to escape, and a banished creature can't.

- Banishment and Polymorph both buck the trend of debuffs requiring a save after every round, making them stronger than most other spells, even ones of higher levels. Polymorph lasts longer, is better, and can double as a buff, but it requires you to touch the monster. Banishment can be cast from safely behind the meatshield.

- Both of them are superior to Hold Monster(5th), which, again, allows a save every round.

- I am glad that Otto's irresistible dance makes someone auto-fail their first saving throw, but disappointed it allows a throw on subsequent turns. Not allowing one would mess with the balance too much though.

- Bigby's hand (5th level) is better than Mordenkainen's Sword (7th level) in every way.

- Call Lightning buffed up to 9th level (9d10 damage per round) will, in almost all circumstances, be a better choice than casting Storm of Vengeance (6 10d6 lightning bolts on the 3rd round, and a bunch of awesome-looking-but-not-terribly-effective side effects). I guess if you're fighting an army that's conveniently within a 360 foot radius (even then, Tsunami would be a better choice), or if the DM ruled all of those gusts of wind mean flying creatures can't fly. Druids don't get Sculpt spell either (not that it would even apply to this...) - so your allies are going to get caught in that storm.

- Is targeting a group really so powerful that it turns the exact same spell from 4th (Phantasmal Killer) to 9th (Weird)? Did I miss something reading the description of Weird? It's embarrassingly weak compared to other 9th level spells.


I've had this thought too but considering how dense the 4-10 range tends to be with abilities not to mention your Extra Attacks, Score Improvements, and especially if you are looking for Feats... all those delayed can be a hefty price to pay.

Even into the late game, like for casters do you really want your 9th level spell to be your capstone and 1/4 less high level spells in the levels before that.


I'm tossing this back and forth in my head, and think I'll need more actual playtime experience with the system to see how it works in practice.

I'm coming around to the philosophy of choosing your dips around increments of 4 (to get your stat ups / feats), and planning out your entire build ahead of time, so you can level up the most important one first. For melee, get to 5th level in whatever class you're going to go all the way in, then start dipping for levels 6-10 and 10-14 if desired. I also think rogue 2 / fighter 2 (for Action surge and canny action) would be worth losing a stat up.

A lot of this will also depend on whether you're actually playing it 1-20, or just starting at an arbitrary level. We've got the same problem as 3.5 where a lot of builds are going to take a few levels of uselessness before the payoff happens.


Not really. Fighters have better AC, better HP, and better damage output.
They can also wield weapons that do more than 1d8 damage. The thing that people don't understand about eldritch blast (and magic missle for an evoker, and other spells which multiple effects that fire simultaneously) is that each target only applies the ability mod once.
EB can later shoot four blasts for 1d8 each. If each blast hits a different target, thats 1d8+cha to each target. If one bolt hits single target and three bolts hit a different target, then that's 1d8+cha to one, and 3d8+cha to the other. You only add the bonus once per target.
--paraphrased via Mike Mearls ruling on the question

So while a fighter will get 1d8 to 2d6 +str on four attacks against a single target, a warlock would only get 4d8+cha against that target.
Good, but not quite on par with the fighter. When you add in action surge, either higher crit or maneuvers, or spells (more slots than a warlock gets all day I might add), the warlock is weak by comparison unless he gets those rests in.

I'm confused why that would be the case, Eldritch Blast has a separate attack roll for each blast, so it really should be adding the bonus for each ray.

Also, Warlock is up to d10's for Eldritch Blast now.

The Warlock expended doesn't match the Fighter at a steady state, but a Warlock with spells is going to be phenomenally more effective than the Fighter until it runs out, at which point it's still passable in comparison to the fighter.

Shadow
2014-09-03, 12:25 AM
I'd like to note that multiclassing at all is in fact an optional rule and therebye not core, subject to DM discretion.


Some spells have a material component, but don't specify the material component is consumed by the casting of the spell. Some other spells do specify the material components are consumed. Are they not consumed if it isn't specified? Did the Focus distinction get dropped between 3.5 and 5e?

The mats are only consumed if it specifically says that they are.
Using a component pouch or casting focus (implement) eliminates the need for any components that do not have a price listed.
Anything with a price and anything consumed still needs to be available every casting, even using a focus.


C o m p o n e n t s
A spell’s components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell’s description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components. If you can’t provide one or m ore o f a spell’s components, you are unable to cast the spell.

M a t e r i a l (M )
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell. If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting o f the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access these components, but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.


So basically, grab a component pouch or a focus, and just make sure anything witha price listed or anything consumed is available. Ignore the rest, as the pouch/focus covers it all automatically.

Mikeavelli
2014-09-03, 12:33 AM
It is certainly optional, and I have two options when writing about it in this thread:

- Ignore it, ignore multi-classing, and miss out on analyzing the game from that perspective. This would be a pity, because it's already a popular topic for people who are interested.

- Include multi-classing analysis, which doesn't take anything away from single-classing, and allow people who don't want to multi-class to ignore those parts.

Shadow
2014-09-03, 12:44 AM
I wasn't knocking it as part of this thread. I was just pointing it out for clarity's sake, as players that don't have the PHB might think it's core rules like it was in 3.x and whatnot.
(and my post above was edited to answer a question while you typed that)

Soras Teva Gee
2014-09-03, 12:46 AM
Spells do indeed win again. The 6-save system makes it inevitable; since all you have to do is learn a spell or two that targets different saves, and cast them on the appropriate baddies. Dat Flexibility. No melee class is going to be able to consistently target the weakest point of every enemy they come across. Caster classes can easily do this.

Yes and for almost everything with a duration is subject to Concentration. That's 5E's giant nerf of casting.

Banishment can on a failed save remove a foe from the field... that is the ONLY foe that caster can remove all battle. After that they almost exclusively have to pew-pew things with damage spells because they can't cast anything else without voiding Banishment. Also no getting hit too hard, summoning something, and very few buffs for the same reason. Save-or-die is either removed (Finger of Death deals damage for example) or takes a good bit more (Stone-to-Flesh need three failed saves and Concentration for a minute to make perm)

Also there's a BBEG shield against spell novaing if you dig into the monster materials:

Legendary Resistance (X/Day).If the [monster] fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead.

Yeah you read that right. I've seen it on dragons and vampires for 3 times a day and something in Hoard of the Dragon Queen for 1/day. But you just don't have the spells to waste against that kinda thing even for 1.

Shadow
2014-09-03, 12:48 AM
Yes and for almost everything with a duration is subject to Concentration. That's 5E's giant nerf of casting.

I'm extremely happy with it. Casting needed a giant nerf. Now melee are not only viable, but also capable and worth playing, and I think that's wonderful.

MeeposFire
2014-09-03, 01:00 AM
I like that magic has more limitations in 5e. 3e has magic at its least limited (AD&D and basic game magic was far more limited and even potentially deadly) and that is what makes it so powerful overall.

LordVonDerp
2014-09-03, 04:55 AM
Not really. Fighters have better AC, better HP, and better damage output.
They can also wield weapons that do more than 1d8 damage. The thing that people don't understand about eldritch blast (and magic missle for an evoker, and other spells which multiple effects that fire simultaneously) is that each target only applies the ability mod once.
EB can later shoot four blasts for 1d8 each. If each blast hits a different target, thats 1d8+cha to each target. If one bolt hits single target and three bolts hit a different target, then that's 1d8+cha to one, and 3d8+cha to the other. You only add the bonus once per target.
--paraphrased via Mike Mearls ruling on the question

So while a fighter will get 1d8 to 2d6 +str on four attacks against a single target, a warlock would only get 4d8+cha against that target.
Good, but not quite on par with the fighter. When you add in action surge, either higher crit or maneuvers, or spells (more slots than a warlock gets all day I might add), the warlock is weak by comparison unless he gets those rests in.
Eldritch blast + agonizing blast = 1d10 + cha per attack, getting more attacks at similar/earlier points to the fighter.
As for AC at will mage armor has that covered, and as for HP the warlock has 1 less per level.

One thing some people don't understand is that agonizing blast specifically says it applies per hit.

Shadow
2014-09-03, 05:04 AM
Eldritch blast + agonizing blast = 1d10 + cha per attack, getting more attacks at similar/earlier points to the fighter.
As for AC at will mage armor has that covered, and as for HP the warlock has 1 less per level.

One thing some people don't understand is that agonizing blast specifically says it applies per hit.

Once per hit, yes. And you're only hitting the target once, but with many blasts.
The example Mearls gave was for an evoker's magic missle, which also hits with multiple bolts, but only gets the damage mod once per target.... so it's the same thing.
I'll see if I can find the link.

edit:
Found. (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/487995399899074560)

It's still DM fiat, just like everything in the game (which I love) but RAI is once per target, as it would work similarly to magic missle.
You're only casting it once, so it's only hitting once. How many hits you roll vs AC changes how powerful that one strike is.

edit2:
I just added asked him in that thread specifically about agonizng strike, so we can get a definitive answer.

Naanomi
2014-09-03, 08:30 AM
Beastmaster specialization isn't so bad if you are of the opinion that the Companions still get reaction abilities (rules are not clear on that aspect I think). Later, when you can trade your attacks 1/2 for theirs (and they may have multi-attack as well) it is a good way to squeeze in (perhaps slightly less effective) attacks in a game that it is harder to get those extra attacks. Also, a small character riding their Companion can be very effective.

JamesT
2014-09-03, 08:41 AM
Beastmaster specialization isn't so bad if you are of the opinion that the Companions still get reaction abilities (rules are not clear on that aspect I think). Later, when you can trade your attacks 1/2 for theirs (and they may have multi-attack as well) it is a good way to squeeze in (perhaps slightly less effective) attacks in a game that it is harder to get those extra attacks. Also, a small character riding their Companion can be very effective.

Wow... Melee ranger plus BM plus Mounted Combatant plus say an Elk gets you combat advantage against any medium or smaller creatures.

Of course, a mount does that as well, but there are many places where a normal mount can't go that a BM mount could.

JamesT
2014-09-03, 08:47 AM
Scratch that... Companion must be medium or smaller. That's a good thing

LordVonDerp
2014-09-03, 10:34 AM
Once per hit, yes. And you're only hitting the target once, but with many blasts.
The example Mearls gave was for an evoker's magic missle, which also hits with multiple bolts, but only gets the damage mod once per target.... so it's the same thing.
I'll see if I can find the link.

edit:
Found. (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/487995399899074560)

It's still DM fiat, just like everything in the game (which I love) but RAI is once per target, as it would work similarly to magic missle.
You're only casting it once, so it's only hitting once. How many hits you roll vs AC changes how powerful that one strike is.

edit2:
I just added asked him in that thread specifically about agonizng strike, so we can get a definitive answer.

Eb is multiple separate attacks.

Mikeavelli
2014-09-03, 11:09 AM
Yes and for almost everything with a duration is subject to Concentration. That's 5E's giant nerf of casting.

Banishment can on a failed save remove a foe from the field... that is the ONLY foe that caster can remove all battle. After that they almost exclusively have to pew-pew things with damage spells because they can't cast anything else without voiding Banishment. Also no getting hit too hard, summoning something, and very few buffs for the same reason. Save-or-die is either removed (Finger of Death deals damage for example) or takes a good bit more (Stone-to-Flesh need three failed saves and Concentration for a minute to make perm)

Also there's a BBEG shield against spell novaing if you dig into the monster materials:

Legendary Resistance (X/Day).If the [monster] fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead.

Yeah you read that right. I've seen it on dragons and vampires for 3 times a day and something in Hoard of the Dragon Queen for 1/day. But you just don't have the spells to waste against that kinda thing even for 1.

I like to run encounters of the type: 1 Boss + Many Minions; so if you Banish the Boss, it's pretty easy to mop up the Minions, and then wait around for the boss to show up so you can gank him. There's nothing wrong with the caster Plinking away with Direct Damage, or even cantrips, in order to clean up minions. This edition may force me to rethink how I build encounters though.

Legendary Resistance changes the class balance calculus a LOT depending on how often it comes up. How often do you end up encountering it? Multiple times a session? Once every few sessions? Somewhere in between?

Person_Man
2014-09-03, 11:30 AM
I disagree with the part about Warlocks completely.
They are quite literally the most dependant upon short rests in the entire game. If you want to compare them to the full casters (which they are, just using a different mechanic), then short rests are absolutely required as often as possible (which isn't to say that an hour stop is possible very often).
Unless you just want to become a magical archer, and not actually be able to do any full casting like your buddy casters.

With no short rests, warlocks are extremely underpowered. With just one or two, they're about on par with other casters. With three or more they start to become OP by comparison.

This thread details (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?366106-5e-Warlock-The-Basics) most of the Warlock options pretty well. If you take away all of the Warlock's Rest related abilities, the Warlock still gets Cantrips, Pacts, Invocations, and a few subclass abilities, plus the option of adding Ritual spells as well. And most of the rest of their stuff is dependent on Short Rests.

So in my opinion Warlocks have highly efficient resource management. Use your plethora of cool but not game breaking at-will magical stuff repeatedly until you get to a boss fight. Use all of your limited Short Rest resources against the boss. Then take a Short Rest. (Though you notably become more dependent on Long Rests when using very high level magic, which is as it should be). This is much, much better then a Fighter (do nothing but hit stuff for respectable damage until you get to boss fight, then Action Surge and use Second Wind, then Short Rest) or a Barbarian (do nothing but hit stuff for respectable damage until you get to a mini-boss or boss fight, Rage, then Long Rest), or many other classes.

Beige
2014-09-03, 12:55 PM
Legendary Resistance changes the class balance calculus a LOT depending on how often it comes up. How often do you end up encountering it? Multiple times a session? Once every few sessions? Somewhere in between?

it seems to be around once every few sessions at early levels, but as you get higher it becomes more common. So far, it seems to be the Boss ability - with both the vampire and the dragon, the two main encounters of Hoard of the Dragon Queen, possessing it.

I wouldn't assume it to be too common, but I could be talking out my but and all high level monsters may possess it when those books come out.

I'm guessing it was made to stop the dull old anti-climax of getting to the BBEG and someone plinks him with a dominate monster spell and makes him dance like a chicken...

EvilAnagram
2014-09-03, 01:52 PM
Correction: Beast Master Rangers don't need a full action to attack with their animal companions. They can split up their attacks between the Ranger and the animal.

Otherwise, I agree with you on a lot of things and disagree with you on a lot of things. Nothing I'd care to argue about, though.

Mikeavelli
2014-09-04, 08:48 PM
- Updated most of the entries with color coordination

- Added Bard and Rogue.

Casters are a lot harder to judge fairly, since the balance of magic has changed so dramatically. I almost feel as if the designers have overcompensated for the domination of magic from previous editions, and nerfed it too much.



Low Levels: Cunning Action is Fantastic. Most builds would find it worthwhile to do a 2-level dip into Rogue just for this. Sneak Attack does the most consistent damage out of any ability if you can get advantage often enough.
Mid Levels: Sneak Attack Scales! Nothing else in this game scales so well. Most mid-level abilities give you additional options and defense, but precious little else on the offense. If you're not sneak attacking, you're not contributing any damage to the fight. Sneak attack is good enough that it doesn't really matter though.
High Levels: Sneak Attack scaling falls behind the nova'ing ability of casters and other classes, but no-one else gets high damage so consistently. They all have to pay a price that isn't renenwed without a short or long rest. Stroke of Luck is good, but not overwhelmingly so. It is, in my mind, exactly what a balanced capstone should look like.

Sneak Attack: Excellent damage dealing source. It's a pity it only procs once/turn.
Cunning Action: I haven't gushed enough about this yet, have I?

Uncanny Dodge: Because you need to protect your precious, precious hit points.
Evasion: See above.

Blindsense: It's only 10 feet, so you probably already know about where the opponent is, and just need to be able to hit them.


Stroke of Luck: Once a short rest, when you don't feel like failing, you succeed instead. Just because you want to. That's pretty awesome.

Specialties:

Thief:

Fast hands: The utility depends largely on your group and DM. Using an Item as a bonus action would be nice if you've got a lot of potions.

Second-Story Work: Fun bonus.

Supreme Sneak: Excellent for hiding and killing stuff.

Use Magic Device: It remains to be seen how good this really is. Magic items aren't as common in this edition of D&D, but this single skill could crack the whole system right open in 3.5. My hopes are high.

Thief's Reflexes: You take two turns, which potentially means two sneak attacks at the start of every single fight. Awesome

---

Assassin: Overall I'm not as impressed with this class as I thought I would be. The 3rd level ability is very nice, but later ones are a bit lackluster. The DM has to accommodate the campaign to allow you to use your abilities. Would not play one in a Dungeon Crawl, for example.

Bonus Proficiencies: Poison is actually pretty good, and not too expensive for what you get.

Assassinate: Free sneak attacks with high initiative, and auto-crits against surprised enemies makes for happy days.

Infiltration Expertise: Depends the kind of game you're playing really

Imposter: Same deal. Depends on the kind of group how useful this will be.

Death Strike: Still doesn't deal as much damage as your sneak attack, unless this stacks with sneak attack, in which case it goes up to amazing.

Arcane Trickster:

Spells: Are the whole point of this specialization. It synergizes a bit better with thief than it does with Fighter (Eldritch Knight). Use thief skills at a range, cast invisibility, fly, supplement your thief skills, and you're not giving up so much to cast a spell as you would be as a Fighter. Just one attack, which may or may not be dealing sneak attack damage.

Mage Hand Legerdmain: This was a lot of fun with the 3.5 version of this ability. Steal wizard's spell pouches for fun and profit.

Magical Ambush: It would be better if you had more/higher level spells. As it stands, they've got disadvantage to resist spells that aren't going to do so much anyways.

Versatile Trickster: Do you want to get a sneak attack on every attack, ever? This is the ability for you! There's no save, no chance to avoid it. You just get advantage, and sweet sweet damage.

Spell Thief: Would be better if you had higher than 4th level spell slots.






Low Levels: Does not shine at low levels. Not enough spells, spells aren't powerful enough, and Bardic Music doesn't really provide more than minor buffing.
Mid Levels: entirely dependent on how good you are at optimizing, picking spells with Magical Secrets, and overall build quality.
High Levels: You're a full caster with a plethora of picks from every spell list in the game. If you're not winning, you're not trying hard enough.

Bardic Inspiration: It really feels like they included this feature because they had to. It was so iconic in previous editions that it needed to be carried forward, but they didn't really want to, and tried to avoid emphasizing it. It has the nearly unique honor of being subject to being wasted. You have to plan out in advance who gets inspired, and they have to remember they have an inspiration die to roll in the event of an emergency.

Magical Secrets: Access to the whole spell list is awesome. Becomes even more awesome as time goes on, and the system expands.

Superior Inspiration: Actually even worse than the other capstone-restoration things. The system encourages you to hand out bardic inspiration dice in advance of combat, but doesn't restore them until you're in combat. Also, Bardic music isn't even as useful as the other point dice systems like this, so it really falls flat.

Specializations:

College of Lore:

Bonus Proficiencies: Because you're the bard, and you're proficient at things.

Cutting Words: Would be amazing if it also applied to saving throws, but sadly it doesn't. Still an excellent ability though.

Additional Magical Secrets: More spells known? Awesome! We're nearly a wizard now!

Peerless Skill: You can use your own ability on yourself that you could have used on another party member at any time. I'm underwhelmed.

College of Valor:

Combat Inspiration: More Damage for your friends! Or a slightly weaker version of Cutting Words.

Extra Attack: I suppose you could combine this with Polymorph/ True Polymorph and go to town smashing stuff in an overpowered Dragon body. Or you could grab some ranger spells with Magical Secrets and start spamming arrows like a 17th level ranger while you're down at 10th. That would actually be a pretty powerful build, now that I think about it.

Battle Magic: This whole specialization has the same problems as the Arcane Trickster or the Eldritch Knight, just in reverse. You're a mostly arcane caster who can fight some good, but it doesn't really add much to the class unless you bend over backwards to optimize it. It's certainly possible to do that, but you're going to have to try very hard to be successful.

Soras Teva Gee
2014-09-04, 08:55 PM
I'm guessing it was made to stop the dull old anti-climax of getting to the BBEG and someone plinks him with a dominate monster spell and makes him dance like a chicken...

That was my conclusion and I expect it will be standard advice to plop it on BBEG for mid-high level campaigns in that regard once people realize its there.

Shadow
2014-09-04, 09:06 PM
I think you're underestimating how big a difference adding 1d4 to a roll can and will be under the boundless accuracy system.
Bardic Inspiration is amazing (as are spells like guidance and bless) and only gets better as you level. These facets will be overlooked by players used to thier 3.x counterparts until they realize just how powerful an effect is really is.

Mikeavelli
2014-09-04, 09:19 PM
I think you're underestimating how big a difference adding 1d4 to a roll can and will be under the boundless accuracy system.
Bardic Inspiration is amazing (as are spells like guidance and bless) and only gets better as you level. These facets will be overlooked by players used to thier 3.x counterparts until they realize just how powerful an effect is really is.

Bardic Inspiration gets a lot better at 5th level with Font of Inspiration, which refreshes it on a Short Rest, rather than just on a Long Rest, hence why I rated low-level bards so low, but gradually increased my opinion of them. They also don't get Bless on their spell list, or any really effective low-level buffs.

They get Bane (the poor man's bless) at 1st level, and a few actual buffs (Heroism, longstrider) as first level spells, but their list isn't actually very conducive to buffing the party. I may be being unfair to the mid-level bard, but I do know the low-level bard in the group I'm running is suffering terribly from an inability to function properly in actual gameplay.

Shadow
2014-09-04, 09:21 PM
I wasn't refering to it being on thier list. I was referencing the fact that they have similar effects which will be underestimated until people see them in use.

Mikeavelli
2014-09-04, 09:26 PM
Just edited it in.

The 3rd level bard in my group isn't doing so hot in actual gameplay either.

Stats are lowish, so he's got a 16 Charisma, meaning 3 bardic musics per day, meaning he runs out awful quick. They're pretty good for the one combat a day they come into play with though.

umbrellasamurai
2014-11-09, 01:11 AM
You forgot about the awesome Reliable Talent feature of rogues (treat any proficiency-based ability check roll of <=9 as 10).

EDIT: sorry, necropost

Eslin
2014-11-09, 01:58 AM
Not really. Fighters have better AC, better HP, and better damage output.
They can also wield weapons that do more than 1d8 damage. The thing that people don't understand about eldritch blast (and magic missle for an evoker, and other spells which multiple effects that fire simultaneously) is that each target only applies the ability mod once.
EB can later shoot four blasts for 1d8 each. If each blast hits a different target, thats 1d8+cha to each target. If one bolt hits single target and three bolts hit a different target, then that's 1d8+cha to one, and 3d8+cha to the other. You only add the bonus once per target.
--paraphrased via Mike Mearls ruling on the question

So while a fighter will get 1d8 to 2d6 +str on four attacks against a single target, a warlock would only get 4d8+cha against that target.
Good, but not quite on par with the fighter. When you add in action surge, either higher crit or maneuvers, or spells (more slots than a warlock gets all day I might add), the warlock is weak by comparison unless he gets those rests in.

So many kinds of not true. Eldritch blast is 1d10 damage, not 1d8, and each blast is a separate attack that adds things like charisma and hex each time. At 17 a warlock is doing 4(1d10+1d6+5).

Gwendol
2014-11-10, 10:53 AM
Hm. Bards make for good skillmonkeys, really good actually, which should count for something. Valor bards make good archers, while Lore bards get more spells. Cherrypicking spells from all classes is a huge advantage.

MaxWilson
2014-11-10, 11:26 AM
Hm. Bards make for good skillmonkeys, really good actually, which should count for something. Valor bards make good archers, while Lore bards get more spells. Cherrypicking spells from all classes is a huge advantage.

As well as a huge dilemma, since opportunities costs are equally huge. :)

Building a bard (or a sorcerer, or a warlock, or sometimes even a wizard) is like buying a car on a budget. You come up with a list of must-have spells, see that you can only afford 1/3 of them, and agonizingly begin to toss features until you're winnowed down to a core that you still like and can work with... but you're very conscious of all the cool things that you could have done with a bigger budget.

I'm not saying that's bad, it's just a thing. And it's a nice thing about druids and clerics, who don't have this dilemma at chargen time--only a smaller version of it at gametime.

Mikeavelli
2014-11-11, 12:25 PM
Oh wow, this came up again. I'm not sure if I would organize it all the same way if I were redoing it, but most of my initial impressions are accurate.

In practice, the Bard class was so gimped at low levels that the player actually switched over to Rogue (literally rebuilt the character, which I allowed because he was so frustrated, and he was behaving like a rogue anyways) instead of waiting for the bardic abilities to develop. We're at around 6th level now, and most of my impressions of low-level play have been mostly accurate:

- The party cleric turned out to be spectacularly powerful, but runs out of steam on around the 3rd encounter of the day between long rests. He oscillates between solo'ing encounters, and being dead weight.
- The Ranger died, and rerolled as a Warlock. She's only played it in one session with it so far, so I don't have a good sense of how powerful the class is.
- Bard switched over to Rogue, and is doing excellently. He pulled that dual-wielding crossbows nonsense, which I allowed because it's not mechanically unbalanced, it just looks silly.
- The Eldritch Knight has been middle of the road for the whole game. Nothing overpowered, not frustratingly underpowered either.
- We also picked up a Monk in the most recent session, which is performing similarly to the Eldritch Knight.